Gotta vent on this one, sorry. But last night I had about the 6th or 7th case of a Gibbs plug cracking down the middle in the last year. This one was a white 1-5/8 oz darter, I've had some swimmers pull the same act, too (I no longer use their pencil poppers, Polarises or long needlefish). They can talk all they want about the 11 coats of sealer and paint, and how painstakingly crafted they are, but if the wood stinks, it's a lousy plug. And their wood sucks big-time.

It's bad enough you pay $11 for a darter with screw eye constuctions, and half the time the hook eyes fail right out of the package when you put minimal pressure on the eye with a pliers. But an $11 screw eye plug that cracks on the first fish is an outrage. I haven't hit a rock or anything hard--I couldn't believe the crack when saw it, I thought my light was causing the leader to throw a shadow across the plug.

Someone--anyone--want to make a nice wooden darter with good wood and thru-wire construction? There's a market for one, believe me. Lots of the LI guys use darters as their go-to plug, and all I hear from the boys are how fed up they are with Gibbs.

I just delivered an order of $100 worth of Hawgs to a guy out here and I'll bet he won't be buying any Gibbs pencils for awhile.

It's a shame. And Gibbs USED to make them thru-wire... Cost of doing business, lessen quality but raise the prices. Twenty seven coats of paint still look like crap when the rocks and blues are done with them anyway...

I've never had a problem with them cracking but you are dead on about the poor quality of the hooks. I had a one oz casting swimmer. It wasn't one of those really teeny ones, it was a medium sized one. Anyways, on a cast off my ummm fake jetty, I by accident dropped the plug down in the rocks. Trying to reel it up, I finally got it free but the rear treble hook was missing! I think they are good plugs still but in their attempt to cost the manufacturing costs have resorted to using cheap hooks.

The worst part is, There are no split rings so I can't change the hooks. I have a nice box of Mustad treble hooks that would go nicely on larger plugs but they are closed eye hooks. I don't even like the open eye hooks to begin with. All that bending can't be good...

Mike,

Ever try the darters from Kevin's Lures in Jackson NJ? Not sure off the top of my head if they are screw eye or not (have to take a look at home) but they do swim well, stand up to abuse and take fish! Inexpensive too!

Send me your email addr and I'll send you the info.

Jaiem, Welcome aboard - sorry about the wait....

You know, you can, uh, e-mail me that too ;D

I think Superstrike's darters are through wired. I don't know if Tony at Lexlures makes a darter but if he does, they might be too.

I have a bunch of Superstrike dartes. Well constructed, but they are plastic and have a slightly different action than Gibbs. They swim a little deeper, too.

The hooks are Mustad 3x strong. It's not the hooks, it's they way they're attached. I've used open eye trebles for years, and when you put them on right, they don't fail unless they get too corroded. But if you bend them back and forth to get the eye flush, which I think is what they do to get it looking nice and pretty in the package for the guys who don't know any better, you weaken the metal. I now replace them with stronger 4x trebles from Eagle Claw and VMC. You can buy 100 loose HD splits from the Surfcaster or Tim for about $7 or so, and attach a ring to the screw eye or the swivel on a thru-wired plug. With the 4x trebles, you can also use one size smaller without losing any strength.

Jaiem, my e-mail is in my profile. First icon on the left under my name and Group.

Mike,
If I'm not mistaken the Gibbs plugs are made with nice soft easy to work Sugar Pine or White Pine or so they appeared to be when I saw them at the show. The pines common to the northeast aren't very tough, a bad combination when you use a screw eye. I didn't realize Gibbs had switched to eyes :(. Most of the people that Gibbs competes with now seem to be using cedar and through wiring definitely a better combination and what a surprise the finish lasts longer...

Do the plugs still perform the same with eyes? I noticed that Gibbs weights thier plugs with round tail weight that slips over the wire inside the plug, no wire means no weight as I see it.

BTW thanks for the good information on the Superstrikes.

Mike P:
There was a pretty good thread on 3/31/01 "Plug Questions". Some good responses on darters and some pictures of superstrike darters.

BTW guys I hear tell that John Habs is tinkering with the idea of a darter if and when he catches up with his orders.

http://65.2.162.230/cgi-bin/StriperTalk/UltraBoard.cgi?action=Read&BID=1&TID=5481&SID=6119

That is the link to the post that Don referred to.

I was thinking about buying one of Gibbs pencil poppers. One of the very light ones. You know, the ones that look like pencils but I don't really have a rod that can work one right.

Habs darter? I'm gonna have to think about getting one of those. I got one of his needlefish and I don't know if I should put it my tackle bag or mount it on the wall. Nice paint job, very streamlined, through wired, and heavy. The best thing about needlefish, even though I haven't caught anything with it, you can fish them any way you want because they don't have a built in action. Like, if I was to cast out say, a casting swimmer, if you reel too fast, it wiggles too much and goes too deep. With needlefish, you can fish it however you want. Just the one thing I have noticed.

Just to get on the same page Patrick, what rods do you own and fish with for stripers???

Thanks

Related to the thread referenced above, a lot of casters say this or that plug is good when squid are around. But most plugs have a side-to-side movement and squid definately don't move that way. The only plug I'm aware of that was for immitating squid was the old amber Gibbs bottle neck (not sure the official name) plug.

Any thoughts on this?

I have a St. Croix 10 foot spinner. It just doesn't work a pencil popper right. I can work one but it takes a lot of effort.

I have a 7 foot Medium action uglystik. The one I made.

I have a 7'6" Empire rod. It's a light rod, one problem, no guides on it. The company that makes it, uses a great blank that I love but for some reason put pretty poor guides and all of them showed signs of rust and two of them actually broke. I figure before all of those become like the other two, I'd replace them.

I have an 8 foot K-Mart special but this is a pretty stiff rod and the reel needs work. It's a Penn 103 C and the roller actually got a groove in it.

That's about it.

I have another 6'6" rod that the reel seat broke on and I gotta drill some holes and put epoxy in.

For the most part, I just bring the 10 footer because 2 rods is just not applicable when you fish 100 yards on the reef and you are in waist deep water.

I've been using Gibbs Darters for 35 or 40 years. As far as I know they were never thru wired. I have a bunch of them in different sizes and they all use screw eyes.

I'll second Mike's recommendation of the Hawg Hunter poppers. Way better than Gibbs in my opinion.

Sounds like we need a Hawg Darter. The outer beach guys would sure be interested in that!!

MikeP, any other way to get Brad's plugs than at the "Mobile Showroom"??

Guys, did any of you get this "threatening email"?
I open my email to find this threatening suprise...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Patrick
- it's to bad that you haven't a clue of what your talking about in regards
to Gibbs Lures. I hope you know more about fishing than you think you know
about Gibbs product and construction .
We would love to see the supposed split lures that you and your supposed
buddies speak of. Just a little info so that you won't appear so ignorant
in the future.
1) any of the screw eye style plugs are made of birch (read this BIRCH) not
pine as you speak of.
2) most of the line of plugs are made from sugar pine for your info and
happens to grow in the northwest not the northeast. also sugar pine is
perhaps the most expensive type of wood used in plug construction but is
used mainly for its bouncy properties.
3) all of the screw eye style plugs have been tested to a minimum of 80
lbs. pull on the smallest style to over a 100 lbs. load on the larger.
4) weighting of the plugs hasn't changed since final designs
5) not all plugs have tail weights (and never have)

I am not sure what you and your friends have to gain by lying about a
tried and proven product other than to listen to each others bull.
PERHAPS YOU AND YOUR FRIENDS HAVE HEARD OF A THING CALLED " SLANDER" ? On
second thought that is perhaps a dumb question having read some of your
commentary.
I would also offer to you or your friends as we do all of our customers
that we stand behind our product and will replace any items found to be
defective due to manufacture not normal wear and tear free of charge.
Perhaps your friend w/ " 6" defective darters would like to send them back
???????

GIBBS lures
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~End of Email

Now I'm no lawyer, but this seems to be a threatening letter. Unjustifiably sending this when I have done nothing wrong but state what happened to my lure. As I recall, all I said was the tail hook of a casting swimmer cracked off on me. I didn't even say this was a common occurence. All my other Gibbs plugs have worked just fine from a wear and tear viewpoint. I would prefer through wired but I have no problems with screw eyes.

This puts the final nail in the coffin I guess. I will never, EVER buy a Gibbs product again. Superstrike, Habs, and these other companies will get my business from now on. If this is how the company treats its customers, I'd hate to see how it treats their competitors.

Hey Ditch, according to my informative email, we are friends now! When do ya wanna get married? :D This weekend sound good to you?

Ah, the heck with it--it ain't worth it. I pulled the post out of consideration for John.

Patrick, nothing you said was slanderous---their e-mail was more slanderous than anything you or I said, but since it was meant to be private, you were the one that publicized it, not them.

Believe me, it's an empty threat.

John--the mobile showroom is the only source.

Hey, Patrick does have a clue. He's just a little tweaked in the head. :D I'll show you all one day and then you'll see!

Way to shoot them down Ditch! No wonder so many people keep their email addresses hidden. So what hurt more, the implication that we are friends or that they said you don't know what you are talking about? ;)

Gibbs guys, if you really care about fishing, then fix your darn plugs and adjust your attitudes. You have brought shame to the Gibbs name now. I know I'll never buy one again. And when I tell my fishing buddies, I'm going to point out the defects of your plugs and how you treat your customers. Next picture you see of me, I'll have a Habs or a LexLure coming out her mouth. Shame on you!

So, you gonna sue me for slander now? Actually, I think this is more libel than slander since it's printed text. You could at least learn the law before you start throwing terms around that you don't understand, crackerjack. Gotta love the judge that would even hear this case.

If you want, I can recommend a lawyer. Try Joe Shyster, Yale Law Class of '82

I wouldn't really call it threatening but you did piss someone off. I would suggest sending the "faulty" plugs back to Gibbs and see if they do stand behind their products. If they don't then go ahead a bitch. If they do then you get new plugs.

Patrick,

First of all, I didn't receive it but I wouldn't be supirsed if that was a troll e-mail. You seem to receive a higher than normal amount of those for one reason or another. I would also hesitate on "legal advice" from you. Nothing personal you understand...

For the rest:

As far as the plugs go, I thought they were thru wired but I don't break plugs down and pull them apart (or inspect them all that close all the time) , I put them on my line and fish with them. I usually use the Stubby most often and I'm going to go home and look myself to see if it is Thru-wire or not. My experiences with these plugs is generally OK (I actually like the Gibbs and Habs Stubbies as they each have strenghts and weaknesses) but I have had plugs where the factory hooks have broken under low load before and that I HAVE experienced >( . Shame on me for not having returned them but after my initial displeasure, they were fished with different hooks...

Pulled from http://www.gibbslures.com today
HANDCRAFTED WOODEN PLUGS
For over 50 years we have been hand crafting saltwater fishing lures out of natural wood stock from the Pacific Northwest. We use stainless through wire and grommets strong enough to handle record setting catches (see the photos on the newsletter page), Mustand 3X strong hooks with supporting swivels to sustain the battle and then layer upon layer of of sealants, primers and body colors topped by protective finishes to assure the lures remarkable appearance.
All of this being crafted completely in the U.S.A., right here in our Cape Cod facilities. And as Stan used to say so proudly, “First we test ‘em...then we prove ‘em...then and only then do we make ‘em and offer ‘em to you.”. "
That's right from the "products page" on their website http://www.gibbslures.com/Product/product.html .

If this e-mail was not a troll, the information on the website would indicate that all Gibbs wooden plugs are thru wired. I would also hate to think there is some misleading information on the manufacturer's own website.

This is a "public" forum and people are encouraged to express their opinions as long as they are not offensive in nature. People who fish hard and often come here and express those opinions and I am not going to edit a fisherman's or fisherwoman's opinion on a product unless the content is offensive. Now if that e-mail was legit, and not a gut hook, I invite anyone from Gibbs Lures to login to this site and say what you have to say in Public. The only thing I have against a product manufacturer or sales people is spamming of a product on the forums. That is not allowed.

I would call it threatening. I took the line in all caps as though they were going to take some legal action against me. Ragfly, before this e-mail, I just said I was unhappy with one incident with their plugs, which I'm entitled to do. I'm not saying everyone of them breaks but that plug had been out of the package for less than 72 hours and it had a hook failure. By the way, once I replaced the hook, one of my other casts I had a bail closure and snap! For all I know, it could have been the hook manufacturer's fault. I really don't know.

Ditch, yeah I know that I made it public so nothing can be done but hopefully enough people will see how Gibbs treats it's customers and they will rethink their purchase. I think that letter was a "scare tactic" though. Fortunately, I've been threatened with a similar lawsuit so I brushed up on my Slander/Libel laws and even I could see this was frivelous although I am still pretty p.o.ed.

John, I just saw your post and maybe it was some joker yanking my chain. If that is the case, I guess I gotta apologize to Gibbs. here is the header to the email address:
~~~~~~~
Subj: misinformed or uniformed
Date: 4/24/2001 9:25:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: dsmalley@plasticsplusinc.com (Dan Smalley)
~~~~~~~

Allright John, I took out the part about the "T" word. But I better not hear any words about, "Why don't you have a job?" because that is why I don't have a job.

If the e-mail is legit, I'd rather he post it on the board and not you. I'm also not crazy about you publicizing your "therapy" on the board. That's not really necessary, is it?

Ya, know, it's unfortunate that Gibbs Lures doesn't look into their product line more and listen to what people are saying. We've all vented recently about their prices. They really are driving themselves out of the market today and other manufacturers are making the same type of lures with better quality, better results, and most importantly, good feedback. I've heard many shops are no longer going to carry the Gibbs Line.

I've used Gibbs Lures many years and have seen a couple new owners come along and leave. I must say that I am displeased with their newest designs of existing lures. Their Pencil Poppers and Darters have changed, and as a result changed their performance.

As long as I can remember, Gibbs Darters have always been screw eyed and not through wired. I have original 3-hook Darters that are screw eyed. I'm just mad that they do not swim the same anymore. Lesser quality.

If companies like Habs, Lex, and others continue making a quality plug at a reasonable price, I can't see Gibbs surviving unless they change from relying on their name to producing a quality product that makes anglers happy.

John--I guess me and your brother-in-law are a lot alike in a few ways. I stand by my criticism. I'm looking right now at two darters, one 1-5/8 oz, one 2-1/4 or whatever the larger size weighs. The smaller one---which by the way doesn't even have a hook gouge on it yet---is cracked from the tail past the belly screw eye. Not just cracked, split. The larger one has two hairline cracks spreading from the tail, one on each side. They're both white, and I can tell you that these are both "new" Gibbs. Know how to tell really easy? I do. The white plugs made by the Gibbs family and Griecci have blue eyes--the new ones have red eyes.

I have no idea who Sea Wolf is, if Dennis, Dan or one of the other Gibbsies is reading this. The guys who walk up to your booth at the shows and stroke your egos aren't the guys who are more and more walking away from your plugs, guys. I know you guys read the net every day. I've been in the room when you've called another webmaster whining about what guys are saying about your product. Instead of whining, fix what's ailing your product, my two cents.

BTW--it's no one's fault but your own that you overpaid Griecci for a name that he had done a pretty good job of running into the ground. Starting off your reign by jacking up prices 40% in the first two years was bad business.

BTW---while I have your ears--whose bright idea was it to broaden and flatten the lower lip on the bottle swimmers? Someone recently gave me a gift of a couple, and I noticed something odd about the lip right away.

Maybe some day I'll make lures. Just for me and my close personal friends. Of course I would have to charge them for materials but the satisfaction I get out of woodworking and then to see someone catch a fish on your work. Well it's just fun. You get the drift. Of course I am projecting into the future again...

Costs wouldn't be too much for me anyways. They would be the lures I want and I wouldn't go into customizing with colors and heavy weights. I have no use for lures over 2 oz.

Basically all it would be are through wired
Dani types and pencil poppers in 1/2 oz, 1 1/4 and 2 oz.
Pencil poppers in 1 and 2 oz.
Darters and Needlefish in 1/2 and 1.5 oz.
Little neck/Polaris/Solaris type in 1 and 2. oz
And possibly lures with grooves just for rigging eelskins. I've never used an eelskin rig but I've heard only good things about them. I would probably make them with multiple grooves so if you wanted to, you could make the eelplug a variable size. Also, what if the eelskin plug had dual holes in it? One where the through wire went, but the bottom one was just left empty so water could pass through and give the skin a better dimension. If you look in the Surfcaster catalog, they have a jighead made like that for eelskins.

Now I know John, you've said to me "Don't re-invent the wheel", but if someone hadn't reinvented the wheel, we wouldn't have the tire and you fellas couldn't drive around on the beach.

I like casting swimmers but I don't think I could make them because I would have to buy a bandsaw. The rest of the lures can be made with just a lathe with the exception of to the darter which would need a coping saw and a beltsander, two tools I own already.

As for colors of my plugs. Well that's simple. Black over white of course. All black, all yellow, and all white. The Yellow ones and the white ones would probably have red mouths. Probably an undercoat of white, then two coats of paint unless it's going to be white anyways. Then a spray lacquer, a coat of epoxy (west marine probably. That stuff is tough as nails) and through wire assembly.

Then of course the Needlefish will have to have an eel type finish.

I keep hearing good things about the Parrot color as a searching lure but that color would be hard to produce out of a can unless I could be proved otherwise.

Then of course eyes that last. Not those painted ones. Either oversized doll eyes or oversized prizm eyes before the epoxy coat. Honestly, I don't see how people over look the eyes. The lures that I have that produce for me, from bucktails all the way up to Windcheaters have that in common. Eyes.

Of course I don't have the means to go into full scale production but I could create enough lures during the winter to keep me in stock for years. Then of course I need some testers. ;)

On a side note, all those chips that come off the while you're spinning the lathe, you can recycle those. All you have to do is melt some parrafin in the oven with a few other ingredients plus the chips and you have some great firestarters for campfires or fireplaces. Good for emergencies. The chips are also good for the compost pile.

Anyways, that's in the future.

Hi All,

Long time no post for me hear. Have any of you canal experts used good old gibbs/superstrike darters at the ditch?

Patrick, you are killing me via a slow death. Convert the energy and brain waves you display into a job. You may just impress
yourself... I would sure as heck be impressed. What the heck happened anyway? I thought you had something lined up?

John,

<sigh> what am I going to do with you? If you look up at my edited post on the second page, you'll see why. I still have some hard work in front of me.

Well then spend your time doing that "Work" and get on with it already. I realize we can choose not to read your posts but come on, you're just thinking outloud to us. You seem to have WAY too much free time on your hands, maybe it would cure you to just get a job. Can you follow direction? Everyone has to start at the bottom and work his/her way up ( unless ofcourse your Dad is a Kennedy or something like that). Now wake up and get on with your life will ya. Good luck, Bruce

Thread Hijack. Man the life boats. me first, then woman and children.

Hey, Mike P was just wondering if anyone out here will make high quality plugs. Yeah, I was laying out some thoughts because believe it or not, the opinions of the people on this board matters to me. I was looking for some input actually.

I know I have to start at the bottom man. But what good am I going to do when I can't really meet people without getting sick to my stomach. Would you hire a person that couldn't deal with customers? Right now, I have to focus on getting better, then work will follow. That's the final say I'm having on the whole Me working issue and I'm not going any further into it. If you have any questions, email me.

Mike P, I'm a fisherman, who loves to fish the surf more than anything else. I was trying to be as political as possible, but yet trying to make my point. I am not affiliated to any lure manufacturer, nor ever was, if that's what might have crossed your mind or were curious.

I am assuming someone from Gibbs Lures reads these boards from time to time or someone that knows them does and can forward our bad experiences to this manufacturer. I used to love Gibbs Lures, but the plugs are just not the same, as we have seen and are discussing here. Right now, Gibbs only makes 3 lures that no one else does - Darters, Trolling Swimmers, and Bottle Plugs. I have not looked at a TS yet since the new ones have come out, so I cannot comment on those. I noticed your point about the GS'es and will make it a point to check them out soon; I don't have any new ones. I really don't fish them much anyhow. But, the lure that hurts me the most is their Darter. Wanna know another way to tell the new ones from the last ones made? Check out the top of the lure...notice how the lure is now more "angled" and not a smooth transition to the back? I can't believe these things are cracking/splitting like they are. That's poor! I have no problem w/ the being thru-wired because the screws are very long, epoxied in, and rarely move, never mind come out. But, please Gibbs, fix that lure! If someone else made these same lures, but better, I'd jump on their bandwagon quick.

Feel free to drop me an email if you want...

Seawolf, maybe that is part of the problem. Other manufacturers are not making those wooden darters so the heat is off in a way to modify, improve, or go back to basics with them. Looking at my plug bag would show 80% wood with 2/3rds of that being Gibbs product. I do use them but have had some QC issues with them... Fortunately (for me), not as bad as Mikes...

I found a problem with their products they use mustand hooks . I dont know that brand must be inferior to the mustads many use "Mustand 3X strong hooks with supporting swivels to sustain the battle " . Ok so its not funny but . I actually have never had a problem yet with their product . I do like habs and hawg hunters more .

Sea Wolf, I hope you didn't take what I said the wrong way :-). I just wanted to make it clear that you and I don't know each other and didn't conspire here as supposed friends with supposed problems with Gibbs plugs ;-)

I notcied the change in the cut on the head of the darter the last time I bought a supply. It's stepped now, with angled cuts at each step. I have a theory on why they altered this plug and the bottle.

For a lot of people, bottles and darters are condition-specific, or location-specific, lures. They don't have as much built in action as a plastic minnow swimmer, or a metal lipped swimmer. The bottle's lip was designed, originally, to grab and dig in rough water or in fast current, where the other plugs either tumble or swim in too exaggerated a manner. In flat water with little or no current, they don't work right on a slow retrieve. Darters come thru currentless water like a piece of driftwood. Gibbs might have altered the head on both plugs in response to complaints that they "don't swim". So, you take a few blank bodies, play around with the taper and cut of what gives them their wiggle, and tank test them. Tank testing isn't a reflection of how these plugs will react under the right conditions, where most of the guys in areas where these plugs are most popular, will use them. Even feld-testing won't work unless the location is the right one. What concerns me most about the new lip on the bottle swimmer is that the flatter profile, while it might give them better calm water swimming properties, might as a consequence detract from their ability to bite and dig in rough surf. I have to say that the new cut on the darter doesn't seem to have resulted in it being less productive, at least since I became aware of it. I guess I have a mixed bag of larger darters, still, and never really check what head one has when I reach into my bag in the dark. But, all of my small darters have the new cut and they have been producing fish.

The only screw-eye plugs Gibbs makes are the darters, the Stan Gibbs poppers, and the 5/8 oz bottle plug. According to Gibbs, all screw-eye plugs are made from birch, not pine. Their early needlefish plugs also had screw-eyes.

Chris---I don't think it's the hooks themselves. Take any brand of lures that has open-eyed hooks attached, be it Superstrike, Atom, Yankee or Gibbs, and you will find a high failure rate right out of the package. Mass marketed plugs have to come with hooks attached, and a lot of people will not buy a plug if "something looks wrong"--like, fer instance, if the pieces of the hook eye aren't flush. Personally, I would rather the plugs be sold without hooks so I can attach them myself, using the style I want. But the average guy doesn't, and the manufacturers, I believe, bend the eye back and forth if the guy attaching it doesn't get the pieces flush on the first shot. Or, they're buying lesser quality Mustads than what's available to the public. Only two things I can think of, because every open-eye I attach doesn't snap under light pliers pressure until it gets corroded.

ditch
I was only joking cause of the mispelling on their website "mustand" instead of mustad I have a weird sense of humor .
they dont give misleading information just mispelled information . I found it funny and yes I misspeell words all the time . LOL
I agree I change my hooks on alot of my lures I buy , with 4X mustads havent tried VMC yet .

Hey JCXX - Long time.... I haven't fished the ditch enough to offer a suggestion to you, but welcome back...

Mike P - No, I didn't take it personally. I just wanted to do the same thing as you were doing, making a point about the plugs, how I'm not affliated w/ any manufacturer, and how we don't know each other (maybe in time...).

I picked up a couple GS1s today and didn't see any differences. They didn't have any '2s' or '3s', so I couldn't compare them. I'll have to look next time I'm at a surf store. I don't have any new Gibbs Plugs yet, still on the old ones - thankfully.

I think the new Darters being 'angled' like that on top just say the type of production they are making right now, l-a-z-y and quick. I have yet to try a new Darter, but a couple of my friends have tried them and don't like them. I'll have to "borrow" one and maybe even fool w/ the head. I've only had maybe one out of every 10 Darters not swim and one of every 50 just perfect in any condition. You really need to study the heads, drilling, angles, etc., when you buy any plug. I noticed a couple Darters today that were slightly off center in their head screw.

This now makes 2 lure manufacturers from the old school that are either gone or just not the same anymore. The other is Atom. Yes, they are still around, but they are not the same plug. I 'like' their attempt to make a Reverse again, but not have holes on the bottom for loading and swimming. Plus, they weren't in amber. I miss the old Atoms...Bob Pond was great! Am I missing something here??? Sure they are other and more wooden lure manufacturers nowadays, but only a couple produce consistent plugs.

I wish Gibbs made the old 3oz Danny Swimmer the same as they used to w/ the bigger and wider lip at the end. Again, not the same plug. Remember those Mike?

I agree w/ your comment on putting your own hooks on the plug. Sure, go ahead and make them for the average fisherman that doesn't have 14 boxes of hooks like me, but let me have that option. I much rather put them on and blame myself or the hook manufacturer if they break, than the lure manufacturer. If that option is available in a plug, I'm doing it. Mike, or anyone else, have you tried the VMC trebels yet? Are they available in open eye trebles?

For JCX , at certain stages of the tide or more correctly , current flow , you can use a darter at the Ditch. However , when its running full tilt boogie , I don't like any plugs. There is so much junk for you to lose a plug to that I just use jigs when its really bookin.

I loaded up on the gibbs plugs at the Worcester show about 3 shows back. I paid an average of $6.50 a piece and got about 30 of them. However , they are probably the last I will ever buy. I can't afford them anymore.

Habs makes nice plugs.

I have to second the opinion that Bob Pond's poppers poppers will be missed. I love to use Atom poppers in the fall when they are blitzing and see them bust it hard on the surface. Fortunately I found that 5 gallon bucket full in my cellar a couple of years ago. I only have about 60 left but intend to fish for 60 more years so that's just one a year I can lose! :)

SeaWolf,
This comment triggered me to speak.
"I wish Gibbs made the old 3oz Danny Swimmer the same as they used to w/ the bigger and wider lip at the end. Again, not the same plug. Remember those Mike?"
Are you refering to the old style Gibbs Lure known simply as "The Trolling Swimmer"?

Sea Wolf. I have tried VMC hooks. I'm not sure, but I think some of the Asian minnow swimmers and older Habs models came thru with 2x strong trebles. They aren't all that strong. I know that Habs now went to a 4x strong treble on his plugs. I ordered a bunch of the 4x VMC trebles, and have started changing them out. So far, I don't have any long-term feedback to give. They appear to be as bulletproof as a treble can be made, and are substantially cheaper than Owners. I have used the 4x strong Eagle Claw Sea Guard trebles for quite a few years, they hold up very well.

The 2x VMCs are not very rust resistant. I also don't think their Siwash-style hook, which Hab puts on the back of his needlefish, is as strong as a Mustad. But, that's just on a finger-compession basis. I don't think there's a stronger hook made than a Mustad Siwash in the tinned finish, at least not a replacement hook for plugs.

I think Mustad is the only game in town for open-eyed trebles, but not sure. I've been adding a ring to the screw eye on the belly of the darters and using the 4x EC trebles.

I just bought four new Gibbs plugs after reading all this. If they're working so well that they're falling apart, then I want a whole set!!!

Oh, they work all right--no one said they didn't work. Why do you think I keep buying them even though they crack on a good fish? That and the fact that they're the only game in town for wooden bottles and darters.

Point was, there was a time when they worked AND stayed in one piece for about a hundred fish.

I just have to say, also, I'm wondering what the "bouncy properties" of sugar pine are that are desireable??? Or, is it a case of misspelling "buoyancy"? The Clueless One wonders--maybe my good friend patrick can explain it to me ;)

Hey Ditch, I have a small casting swimmer that has screw eyes. It's a 5/8 oz fella. I think all their small plugs and all darters have screw eyes.

Allright, here's a question for you guys. When you say you have to work a darter in current. How should that current be in relationship to you? Coming towards you? Going away? Running left or right? My first guess would be running away from you but I just want to make sure.

Mike, I obviously don't know the exact situation with your split lure but I will say that wood being a product of nature is not 100 % predictable. There can be flaws in the wood that are undetectible under the surface. Maybe you got one of the few that may have had a check in the wood somewhere, but I can see how upset you can get seeing how they are supposed to be tested before you buy them. Nothing is perfect. As far as your other notes about the different cuts I won't comment on them, you are more familiar with them than I.

This thread is very good and I really wonder if that was a real email Patrick got, maybe the guy is too embarassed to respond to the forum.

And Saltheart, you found Gibbs' for $6.50 at Worcester. You bargain hunter you, I bought some there and paid 9 each. I gotta follow you around the next show ;)

Quite a few years ago Red Top had their own line of swimmers called Cap'n Bill's. I spoke with Bunny about these plugs several years ago and his reply may explain the 'splitting plug' phenomena.
It seems that these plugs became pretty popular and they had trouble meeting demands. So they hired someone to build the plugs for them. Bunny said in order to speed up the process the sub-contractor cut corners by not soaking or not soaking the plugs long enough in a solution (I think it was fermiculite or something like that). This caused all the plugs built in this manner to split after very little usage. You could always tell the plugs that Red Top built versus the ones that they had sub-contrated out.
The splits in these plugs was pretty unsightly. I used to just fill the split with epoxy and continue to fish them.
When you pay the current inflated prices for Gibbs lures .. you expect them to perform. The last lure I bought from them was a PP. The attachment thru wire was not even centered. So its still in the wrapper.

Anytime I use a popper in the future .. it will be a Hawg Hunter!

Linesides, the old Danny I'm speaking of is in the 3oz. size. The big difference is sometime ago Gibbs decided to change the lip design so it's similar in all the sizes. Basically, the lip is the same width from the spot where it leaves the body to the tip. The older ones had a lip where it was the same width as the body where it met the body, but it widened a little as it came to the end. Follow me? No, I wasn't referring to the TS swimmers. I know the TS swimmers. Their lip was similar to what I described as well.

I do have to agree with you Mike P, for Darters and Bottles, Gibbs is the only game in town. I'm sure someone will make some wooden Darters soon. The Bottles I doubt because I'm sure Gibbs owns that patent.

A thread like this would be a waste if all the manufacturers don't read these boards. I'm sure a couple do and only browse, which would be fine by me. As long as they took what is said here into consideration.

Nevermind

Slipknot , you got to read the fine print. Worcester show , 3 shows back , thats the 1999 show . The rumor was that the company would be sold and the prices would sky rocket. I loaded up before it all happened. A funny thing was that I couldn't get any needlefish cause some guy from RI had loaded up on them the day before and wiped them out. Turned out to be #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&. :)

They've been reading the board, and some e-mails were sent and recieved and I won't get into the nitty-gritty but I will say this. After receiving a couple of the e-mails, several points had been raised about the construction of these plugs where we were in error (so to speak) and I would like to pass along that info. This is hard fact, what the plugs are made with and out of. This is info which is not debatable such as construction materials used as opposed to percieved and actual perfromance or quality, which is really determined by the people that use the product.

Wanting to get the right info out, I have no problem with posting the correct construction materials which I was corrected on by one of the co-owners of Gibbs Lure, Dan Smalley:

Some of your assumptions as to what I questioned as bashing and uninformed were in regards to plug construction etc. Many of your clients made totally untrue comments as to what had and had not changed i.e..
1) Not all plugs are thru wired or ever have been
a) darters - birch construction and screw eyed
b) 1/2 oz pencil popper - birch and screw eyed
c) 5/8 oz casting swimmer -" "
d) 1 oz Polaris popper - " "
2) All other plugs are still made from sugar pine and thru wired
w/stainless wire and any plug that has screw eyes is of birch construction
3) Never has any of the screw eye plugs currently in the line been tail
weighted as one person points out. Many have a belly weight but no tail
weight and never have.
4) I can say personally that I nor anyone in my employ have ever seen a
split darter. It sounds almost to unbelievable that one person could have
been unlucky enough to have "7" such rejects.
5) As far as cost we had an initial increase 3 yr. ago and have held firm
since. Plugs are now available and with a more consistent quality. Returns
are at an all time low and volume has tripled. Regrettably I am unable to
control what dealers might charge.
6) Most of our clients do not want a plug with splint rings holding the
hooks on and would prefer an open eye hook . When hooks need to be
replaced customer can either use a split ring with a closed eye hook or once again use an open eye hook. Most customer feel that an open eye hook lacking the split ring is still stronger. From a cost point a closed eye hook is also cheaper.
7) Gibbs plugs have always been hooked with a mustard 3X and still are.
Maybe these are not the best but all I can say from past experience is
that more trophy fish have been taken on these than any other plug ever made. With proper care the hooks should provide many hours of great fishing.


I'm sure that if bad plugs were returned to them, they would stick by their promise to back them up. I think that's fair to say too.

The above was put up as to get everyone on the same page as far as construction methods and I think that should be put up. There are still questions on the performance and quality of said plugs and that's where a lot of your opinions have been coming in. Especially those of you that have been working these plugs for generations.

But they have been reading the boards, whether they are listening or not, I can't tell you. But I think it's a hell of an opportunity for them to see what "Gibb's clients" are saying and feeling about their product. I say "Gibb's clients" because even though he stated above that you are my clients, that's not entirely true because I don't sell you anything. But you do buy Gibb's product as well as others and you fish 'em.

I also invite Dan or Dennis from Gibb's Lures to come onboard to give some insight to some of the other issues which are being disputed here such as quality and to a lesser degree, performance.

Again, they have been reading the progression of this thread and I hope they use this as an opportunity to interact with their clients that buy their product...

IF they do come on board to take the opportunity to discuss their product, tell them what you think and what you know in a constructive manner.

Thanks,

John

I would also like to see them reply. I really don't like how they handled this situation. I don't care what a plug is made out of or what kind of hooks they have on there. As long as it works well. As a consumer, my job is to fish the plug, the manufacturers job is to find the best stuff that works.

I can see why the 1 oz Polaris, Small Pencil and 5/8 oz Gibbs aren't through wired. They are for targeting smaller fish. Here's a question, why aren't the darters through wired? They are awfully large and a lot of guys use them to target big fish. So why not?

Thanks John, that clears up some stuff.

And thanks Saltheart, I guess I got to pay closer attention.

There's (or at least used to be) another wood plug manufacturer in NJ called Diftwood Lures. Anyone hear/see/use them?

I first saw them last year at a surf seminar. The plugs sold well and many other casters said they had used them before and had better results than other brands. One of the owners sent me a sample pack of plugs and they were very nice plugs! They cast well, all were wire thru, and they worked! I did very well with their needle fish plug at BI last year.

What about those "Beachmaster" plugs I saw at the Mass Bass show? I think they are out of Long Island or Jersey... Anyone know of them?

As to Dan's points that I care to respond to:

1. Also, the Stan Gibbs poppers, in all sizes, have screw eyes. As did the originals---of which I have many still in the original red "Stan Gibbs Cast-a-Lure" box. Just for purposes of clarity.

4. What I said is the absolute truth. Whether it's unbeieveable to Dan Smalley or not. I'll display the plug to anyone who is intersted, and after I have the chance to photograph it---as well as the 2-1/2 one with hairline cracks starting to spread from the tail--I'll scan the photos to John. After which, I'll return it to Gibbs for Dan to see with his own "virgin" two eyes that I'm not full of bull. You will notice, when you see it, that the paint is pristine, both at the tail and all along the crack, that there are no dents or chips to the paint indicative of it coming in contact with a rock or bridge abutment. From the shape of the crack, you will also see that it is a stress fracture caused by external pressure to the plug, and not something that was cut into it---that is also evidenced by the lack of any damage to the paint whatsoever. I am not asking for a replacement--what I am asking for is an apology for unwarranted attacks on my reputation and credibility. But I'm just asking for that, not demanding it. I don't threaten people just for the sake of making noise. As far as the other cracking problems over the last season, well, I didn't save those plugs for posterity. Had I know this was going to turn into a pi**ing contest, I probably would have saved them. In addition to my own experience, I personally witnessed two 2-1/2 oz darters cracking, that other people were using, in situations where the plug was ingested deeply by a sizeable bass. If a plug can't stand up to the pressure a striper exerts with its crushers, maybe it's time to re-think the materials. If this is something inherent in the design of the plug, so be it. Then, fishermen have to choose on a cost/benefit analysis whether to continue using them. Most will as the plug produces. But if it is something that can be rectified by inspecting the grain of the wood and rejecting blanks that have irregularities that might be causing these cracks, that is something you may wish to look into.

5. It seems like you are conceding, by saying that the plugs "are now available and with a more consistent quality" that initially, the quality was inconsistent. Which it was. Some bottle swimmers didn't swim, and the same was true of some Danny swimmers. Also, just for the purposes of accuracy, you initially raised prices 25% after acquiring the company from Jim Gruiecci, and followed that with a 15% rise, which accounts for a 40% increase in the first two years of ownership. That was in the wholesale cost to dealers, their mark-up after the fact is admittedly out of your control.

Your initial reaction, consistently, over even the slightest criticism of your product is to fly off the handle and complain, whether it be to a tackle shop owner who returns plugs or forward complaints on behalf of a customer, or to a web host who doesn't "censor" criticism of your product. These people are not employed by you in a PR capacity, they owe you no obligation to sugar-coat anything or prevent customers and readers from offering their opinions. I will admit that the title I chose to initiate this discussion was a bit intemperate, but it was calculated to draw your attention, since I know you guys read the internet daily. By calling your attention to this problem, I was hoping your response might be, "Contact your reader and ask him to write to us and explain the problem in greater detail, or have him send it to us and we'll look into it". Even though I know in the past that has not been your approach, perhaps getting over that was part of the growth process and learning curve of running a consumer oriented business. Unfortunately, you chose to react--apparently, since I'm not privvy to what was said except to the extent others posted your communications to them--in typical fashion, flying off the handle and accusing those with legitimate criticism as being clueless, liars, full of bull, threatening charges of SLANDER when everyone with even basic knowledge of the law knows that any lawsut you brought would result in many dollars of damages assessed against you and your company in a countersuit, and showing yourself to the public in an extremely poor fashion.

John R (04-27-2001 12:08):
What about those "Beachmaster" plugs I saw at the Mass Bass show? I think they are out of Long Island or Jersey... Anyone know of them?


I've heard casters speak well of them but haven't seen or tried them myself.

I liked the Driftwood needles because while they were heavy enough to cast well they didn't sink like a rock. That let me work them slow over rocks. Hope they didn't go under. :(

HELP!

Hey guys, how about a few of you, who have some experience with plugs, listing your top six performers, starting from the best and going down to #6, for stripers in New England. Gibbs' products seem to be most popular, but please include others like YoZuri, Bomber, and whatever you have had the best luck with for big fish later in the season.

I've always considered that plugs were made to catch fishermen, not fish, and have used jigs and various spoons and spinners, and flies of course, all my life. But I've heard some really good things here about the productivity of plugs, and even just bought a bunch of them (two Dannies and two pencil poppers) the other day, and want more for when the lunkers arrive in a few weeks.

BUT I don't know what to get!! And getting the wrong one is an $8 to $15 mistake.

Well, I'm glad I wasn't holding my breath, but unfortunately, it appears that they have chosen not to respond publicly to this issue. This is an opportunity for them to resolve some issues with their customers. Hopefully, in the future, they will choose to do so in a kind and professional manner.

An offer was extended to me to visit their manufacturing facilities and I may do that at a later date if the offer is still open and they show a more open approach to their customers.

Thanks,

John