i figure i might as well give it a shot. i am going to do a batson 1089 with the spiral set up. i plan on using a mag 525T on it. i have done a lot of research on the rod building forums around the net, but i haven't found any definative answers on the two major points. stripper guide off set or on center? how many in the transition? i have heard anthing from 3 to 5 guides. i roughly set the rod up with 5 guides in the transition beginning with the first guide off set. i have not cast it yet, but the flex is pretty good. any tips?

Best tip - go test cast it and figure it out yourself. That's the best thing you can do. Try it offset, try it right on top, try 2, 3, 5 trasnition guides. You'll be surprised how quickly you can become an expert on the subject by test casting & experimenting yourself.

I don't mean to brush you off, I never wrapped a spiral surf rod, so I don't have any answers. I can guess you an answer though - try size 20-12-10 transition and 10's all the way out to the tip. If you plan on using a 12 ring tip, use a 20 and all 12's. The 20-16 will make the line stick out at an angle on the transition, something I don't like.

EEP!...I don't think you're going to like the results on a convench surf stick, Toby - the spiral wrap does slow down the line coming off the spool. Hope you have good spool control....

depending on which way you spiral the blank you want the edge of the guide to center the reel. It will off set the reel .other wise on a levelwind it will build up on the side you spiral is started off seting to the edge to center solves this.

Billy - i went 20-16-12's to the tip. i had two 16's, but it did not flow right. i am going to wait for the cold to break a little so i can go cast this thing.

WeeWee- i read some positive results posted in here by Fishaddict. maybe he'll chime in. SPIRAL THREAD (http://www.striped-bass.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4613&highlight=spiral)

Mike - i have it set up a little off set right now.

i am spiraling left since the reel handle is on the right. i just figured it would balance better. i just checked the weather. it looks like tomorrow or thursday will be my only non snow days this week to test cast. i will post my results as the rod developes.

FWW - I don't know which spiral wrapped rods you've casted, but if you set the rod up properly the line will not get slown down. At least on a shorter rod this is true, but I'm almost positive a long rod set up properly the rod will cast just fine.

If the line forms a relatively straight line from the spool to the tip, it will cast just fine. After all the line can't tell if it's above or below the blank, but it can tell if it's straight = shoots right through.

TLap - Don't be deterred until you've given it a good test casting trying different set ups until you find one that works well.... or that the spiral method sucks in the surf for you.

Toby...
Not an expert on this by any means, but willing to pass along any help I can.
First of all, I love these spiral rods. The rod control you get fighting a fish is so much better than a standard conventional wrapped rod. Sprial wrapping eliminates any rod twist or rolling when the rod is flexed under load. This has worked very well for me in the canal.

Billy is right be saying that test casting is very important. Once you get the rod setup, and the guides in place to where you think a good starting point is, it's time to cast.
I did a lot of reading and research like yourself before I wrapped my first spiral. The method I liked the best was Ralph Quinn's.
For me, the best results I have gotten from a casting rod have been with the "straight line" method. If you going to be using the rod as a trolling rod or standup rod, some of the other methods work much better.
I like to spiral to the left. Feels more balanced to me when the reel handle is on one side, and the sprial is on the other. It also makes a world of difference if your not using a level wind and you have to thumb the line back on the spool. You'll find that with a little practice you just have to push the line to the right, and it will automaticly wind itself back to the left.
I do offset my first guide to the left. As Mike said earlier, placing the right hand edge of the guide to the center of the spool will eliminate any line pile up when using a level wind reel. You can actually go just a little bit more to the left than center and not run into line pile up. Test casting will let you know how far left you can go with the first guide, and it will be ease to tell where that point of "too-far" is. The line will go from level on the spool to a nice high spot on the left side once you go too far.
I make my transitions in four guides with the fifth guide being the first one on the 180. A lot of guys like to make the transition in three guides with the fourth being on the 180, I have that is just a little too quick for a 9' or 10' surf rod. It decreased my casting distance. You want to set you rod up so that your first 180 guide is in place before the lock up point on the blank. If your wrapping a soft glass rod this dosen't apply, but with your blank it will. Put your blank under load, mark the spot on the blank where it locks up. Then just make sure your first 180 guide is below this mark.
Then set up the blank guide spacings as you normally would. Put your stripper on it's mark on top, twist it left to about 40 degrees, set your 180 guides to the bottom of the blank, then take the remaining guides and space them as even as you can spiraled around the blank. Put your reel on the rod and run a line through the guides and out the tip. Then work the guides around (both spiraled and up and down on the blank) to get the best possible straight line from reel to the first 180.
Once you think everything looks good, time to go cast.
Don't be afraid to move things around and work the guides up and down the blank. You might have to even add another guide to make the transition smoother. I do like to push my first guide out quite far. It alows me to rotate that fisrt guide more to the left, and makes for a smoother transition. Have also found that using a high framed guide as a stripper will let me push it out even farther. But test casting will show you what works well and what does not for your blank.
Well thats the quick version, let me know if you have any questions that i might have missed.
I do like these spirals very much, have wrapped everything from a small sweet water rod to my Amtak 1209. Going to wrap an 11' surf rod here soon.
Besides, you just got to love when the older guys come up to you and say.. "hey there son, do you know all the eyes on that there rod are crooked??" :D :D

Good luck Toby

When you are doing this spiral wrap have you noticed a torque difference when spiraling to the left Vs spiraling to the right?I have seen this done both ways and when I asked about it all I have been able to get is that they were wrapped for which side or the boat they were going to be trolled on.I have wondered why with the line wrapping around the blank it doesnt twist to the side of the spiral.Has anyone tried offsetting the first guide in the other direction as in Rick Forhans revolver style to compare it to Mr O*Quinns metheod to see which actually works better on a longer surf rod.I have seen this done on boat rods and was thinking about trying one but no one seems to have figured out what is the best style for it in 100 years.

I tried spiraling the guides to both sides. Just held on with tubing. And didn't like them going to the right. They didn't load any different, just felt better to me going left. I also use my CT's on them alot, and it makes it much easier to thumb the line back onto the reel when they go left. For me anyway.
Setting one up for the surf is different than they do for standup or boat. Stand up rods make the transition in far less guides. Sometimes in as few as two guides. But doing this realy cuts down on the casting distance. Dosent effect the torque of the rod, but makes big difference on the castability. The guys on the All Coast board have even come up with a set of roller guides made especally for spiral (acid) wrapping a heavy standup rod.
The best advise I can give you is to just try it. Tape or tube a set of guides onto your blank and mess around with the configuration. You'll be pleasently suprised with the results once you get it close.
If I set up a rod for pure distance, like my Cono-flex Gambit, I sill use the conventional method of setting up the rod. But if i'm going to be fishing the Ditch or tossing plugs in the surf, I always bring my spirals.
Guess it's all in what you like..

It's worth a try at the very least. And if you don't like the way it performs, just cut them off and wrap it the way you normaly would. Just don't epoxy it until you decide one way or the other..

Good luck...
Happy wrapping
Bob

well, i went to a field near work today. i was throwing a 2 ounce sinker, 65 braid, and the 525T. i tweaked the guides a little, but over all i liked how it was from the start. i did not notice the layout take anything away from distance. i am not sure just how far the casts were going, but i was almost going end to end of the field with a lot of mag and a 3/4 cast. the field looked to be as long as a football field at least. the only signs i saw were some that said "Parking for cricket players only".. :smash:

when it is all done and the specs are official, i'll let you all know. thanks for the help!

I saw the roller guides for sprial wrapped rods on thier site also and I am looking forward to seeing a set.I*ve seen the sprial wrap done on boat rods (stand-up 50/130) but it was with Fuji Usg and the hardaloy equivalent.I did an IGFA 80 last fall with the sic RSG guides set up regular to see how the guides are compared to rollers on the line.I do wonder what the stress on the sprial wrap will do to the actual wrap and finish with a real big fish on.I did notice a sprial wrap with Rsg guides in rod crafters and it looks like they set the transition guides backwards for this part.Must be for line clearence.

I do wonder what the stress on the sprial wrap will do to the actual wrap and finish with a real big fish on

Whatever it does - it will not have the blank twisting and torqueing the way a regular guides on top rod does. Think about it, you look at the tip, the guides are turning left and right - that has to take a lot away from the blank. With the guides spiral wrapped, the blank stays put, the spine (which is way overrated imo) stays on top, as opposed to the spine being on top of half the rod, and on the side out towards the tip.

T Lap - glad to hear no loss of distance, that's what happens when the rod is set up properly. I've seen some soiral wrapped rods, and geez, you'd wonder wtf the guy was thinking when the rod was built.

, the spine (which is way overrated imo) stays on top, as opposed to the spine being on top of half the rod, and on the side out towards the tip.------------------------------------------------------QUESTION are you not spining the rods or are you spining them by rolling them on the floor?? I am spining them by the tip or say the top 12-18 inches of the blank when doing by hand or the top 10 inches when doing in a spine finder I made with ball bearings and I dont see or havent noticed all this twist.What I was refering to was the stress that would now be on only the wrapped thread as the guide is being pulled down instead of it pulling down and having the blank supporting the guide feet and distributing the stress along its surface.I wasnt refering to say 5 to 10 lbs lbs of drag but say 35lbs to 50 lbs on bigger class rods.On surf rods the point is moot as spinning guides have been mounted in the manner since the beginning.As i*m sure you know no one( with the exception of Van stall who does or did have a spinning reel for 80 lb class set-up ) makes spinning reels for the larger class rods.I never bothered to find out what guides they intended this to be used with and have never actually seen one but I had seen an add for this a couple of years ago.I believe the price was around 2 grand.Do you know anything about what guides were to be used with this and how they intended these to be mounted?I still use either E or EE thread for third or top wrap on tuna rods but most places dont carry over a D size any longer.Spiral wrapping rod idea has been around for close to 100 years and one has to wonder if it is as good as its now claimed to be why has it taken so long to become popular.I would do one just to try and I have seen it work on stand up rods but is it just a marketing ploy to build more rods in smaller class rods to be on the inside of a craze or Fad.I dont even seem to be able to understand why it has not been perfected and there are so many different styles or set-ups for this if it has been around this long and is so good.

It hasn't caught on because people are robots. They are afraid of how it looks, nothing more, nothing less.

I spine my rods much more accurately than most - I use a Vertical Spine finder, and line up the reel seat at the same time I'm spining the rod. I don't have to worry about mis-marking the blank by 1/10th of a degree, etc, etc.

If you mis-spine a Spinning rod, what is going to happen that makes it such a big deal? Same holds true for a spiral wrapped rod, what's going to happen?

The concept is really, really, simple, and has nothing to do with heavy or light rods, etc. Take a piece of 1/4" masking tape, make only ONE turn around each guide to hold them in place - and place them traditional method. Take the rod fishing, watch the guides get ripped out of the masking tape. Do the same spiral wrapped, and watch the guides stay put. That's the simplest way I can explain it.

I've jigged 2-5# Bluefish on a Calstar 700XL with guides held in place with Surgical tubing. And caught a ton of them.

Will a spiral rod help me catch more fish? hope thats not a stupid question. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Goose
Will a spiral rod help me catch more fish? hope thats not a stupid question. :rolleyes: :kewl:

torqing is a lot more visable on a lighter casting rod. a perfect example is the rod shown on the gloomis website logo. as a blank gets more powerful in line class, the torqing is less visable, but still occurs within the blank. the spine of a blank actually changes as you go up a blank because of the manner they are built. you will not see torqing unless you have guides on a blank, line thru the guides, wrapped "conventionally", and under stress.

why would you wrap a rod w/ ee or e thread? just beaause it's thicker does't mean it stronger. if i wrapped someone in 1/2" rope, they would still be able to move slightly. if i wrapped them in size a or c thread, they would hardly be able to move because there is more thread on them.

goose, no it will not help you catch more fish. but, it will extend the life of a blank if properly built.

If C is stronger than EE then A must be stronger then both C and the EE so to clear this up put two five pound weights on a table.Run a size A thread through one and an EE thread through the other.Wrap the ends around your arms.pull the weght off the table and which one breaks.The A might bind tighter but is it as strong?Will it hold up?If one strand breaks on an A thread that has say 5 strands will it make more or less of a difference then if one strand breaks on an EE with 30 strands?This is why I use A or D for the first wrap over the feet --to bind tight and then with E or EE for the strenth to endure.Think about it your guide wrapped with a rubber band ten times around or with that piece of surgical tubing--which would stretch more??Gee if binding tight is the answer then would shrink wrap tubing be better then the surgical tubing?What are we arguing here load distribution with the A sized thread??Why not 00 thread??But I guess after this I*m going to switch to building with surgical tubing sounds like it would be quicker and cheaper.Now if I could only figure out the corelation between the 40HH guide and the 4/5 ft leader with the swivel.I would however like to know about this vertical spine finder you mentioned and how it more acuratly locates the spine by less then 1/10 of a degree.---extend the life of a blank if done properly ---- how long do they have to last. I got rods built 25 years ago by me that I dont use because I just keep building more.Ive never had one break but build more because I want to.Isnt this like a hobby?????

you're missing the whole point of what i said. you can wrap more revolutions of a thinner thread than a thicker thread on a blank and guide. this gives you a tighter wrap, less tunneling, less movement of the guide foot, and a stronger bond. sure, the larger you go in size thread the stronger the thread itself is, but you have less thread revolutions on the guide foot and a bulkier build. i'm not saying i would use size a on a offshore rod, but i'm not saying it wouldn't work either.

blanks of 25 years ago had a lot less modulus and could handle the ability to torque, but it still was not good for the blank. today's higher modulus blanks can wear down over time from constant torquing. this could lead to rod failure. and, a rod that torques is a rod that is not acting a a proper level in the fisherman's hands. thus, the fisherman has additional pressure to compensate for.

damn thread highjackers! good info/debate though.

If C is stronger than EE then A must be stronger then both C and the EE

THis says a lot - I thought it was common knowledge that A thread is stronger than EE when wrapped on a guide. Stand alone, EE is stronger, when was the last time the guides were held on by 1 strand of thread.....EE is so thick, maybe it only takes one turn to wrap around the guides?

Advantage of EE is lazyness, and it is more durable when bounced around. It also can be used to tie a boat up to moorings, so it's good to have around.

The VSF is more accurate because it's much easier to find the spine with than rolling the blank on the floor - and it's easier to use because you can find the spine and line up the reel seat at the same time. That marking the blank thing with a pen leaves yourself open to making a slight error if you don't mark the blank perfectly - again, the spine is overrated anyway.

The question about the vertical spine finder was a genuine one but I havent spined a blank by rolling it on the floor for many years.I do them by hand.I was shown a method by an extremely competent rod builder and do it his way or in the rolling spine finder which seems to work very well.My question about the vertical was did it have some type of indicator on it for marking the blank or is it just another that bends blank and you site on it with eye.When I am doing it I only consentrate on where it is at or near the tip.I dont care where it is at the butt end of the blank.I assure you the laziness is not playing any part in my using EE thread.It does however mean I have to keep 4 sizes on hand and it is not avalable in all colors.I do only rods for myself so it doesnt matter how long it takes.I also assure you that it takes a lot more then one wrap to cover the foot of a big Foot Aftco roller guide.I am not using the larger thread on small rods where I happen to agree that thinner thread is more then adaquate for the Job.I do however think that on a rod where guide flex is practically nill and the thread is subject to extreme pressure that wrapping it with the toughest and strongest is the best way to go.When it is wrapped on you do not notice a difference in how it looks unless one is looking at it from a extremely close distance.Now if you can tie a boat to a mooring with it would it not be stronger?I think that it is a strong as practical while still maintaining a strong degree of looking good. This type of rod is subject to a lot more abuse then a rod used to catch a ton of 2/5 or even 10 pound bluefish as that is now what is being commonly used as bait on them. I also agree with seawolf on the tunneling part but how much of a tunnel is there on the second wrap as the first eliminates 99 % of this.The top wrap is then just for Brute strenth and durability.Maybe I only do this to satisfy myself and it is over build but like I said these are for me so I only have to make myself happy.I have know idea when it became "common Knowledge" that A was Stronger then B"and I do agree it binds tighter as a first wrap.Though I*ve never used it myself I have seen rods that were wrapped with Dacron line that never exibited any signs of problems from being wrapped with to thick of a thread.I think we have kinda gotten off the track here as this originally was about sprial wrapping a rod.All I wanted to know was which method worked best.how the guides are place is all over the highway around the blank by different builders and one is putting the first with the left side of "0" axis and other are putting it to the right.Then theres the use three guides to make transition and others up to Five. I have seen this work and want to build one but by whose method is better seems to be the unanswerarable question.--- I am also interested in Info about the vertical spine finders accuracy vs the methods I am now using.One also has to wonder about the spine being to big an issue on rods where the guides are on the bottom as you would think it would be a more important thing as blanks got smaller but when Sage builds there rods I have been told they dont spine them and I have been told they are one of the best rods you can buy.I think it becomes more of an issue when the guides are mounted on top of it as a lot of us robots do.Sorry Mr L*ski I never ment to hijack your thread but I agree it has become interesting.A lot of people got the nix on the larger thread cecause MR Clemens said it wasnt nessesary but does everybody still agree with everything he had to say.Info come from a large variety of sources and has to be interpeted to fit ones own personal use.Thats what I thought this was about sharing ideas and wading thru them to find out what works.I*m not telling anybody they have to follow my directions just what works for me.The beauty of building your own rods is that you get to do them any way YOU want.

every blank needs to be spine in order to determine where to put the guides, be it casting, spinning, or conv spiralled. if sage does not spine their rods, then they are asking for additional problems w/ breakage. fly rods are one of the few fishing rods that can be built w/ the spine for fighting or for casting.

if you are worried about thread strength for say offshore rods, build it w/ 2 or 3 overwraps. if what you do works and makes you happy, stick with it. everything said here has been tested and proven by others.

the beauty of being a customer looking for a custom rod is that you have many rod builders to choose from. if you believe in one technique, go to that person. if you like anothers wrapping patterns, go to them.

toby - thread hijacking? just be thankful i'm not cutting your line!

I done most of my rod with D under and over wraps, I feel its easy to work with. I beleive that whether its A or D done correctly your guides will not move or shift. Whether its butt wraps or guide wraps the most important thing that I stress when showing others is thread tension. I haven't been around the rod building scene to long but I never heard of guides moving. I think the frame of the guide will bend or break before the anything else.

Far be it from me to start telling SAGE how to build rods and they do have a life time warranty soooooooooooo!!!-------------I spine everything from ultra lites to 130*s it wasnt me that said I didnt think it was important----I agree and do use 2 or 3 overwraps its just I use the larger thread as the very top wrap. Yes goose one now see a lot less twisting of the whole guide because the Epoxy coatings help keep everything in place.You used to see a lot more of it when just thread and thin coating was used because thread does strech and loosen up and the Epoxy helps controll this.---A thread looks a lot nicer when used for buttwraps and I use this for doing all my pattern work.It just takes longer to do when doing closed wrap patterns and is more for the eye of the fisherman then the fish.I just did a blank with a split color 2 axis ST Johns cross closed wrap on the fore grip and 4 axis closed wrap diamond pattern between the 2 rear grips on the butt section of a surf rod.Thats gotta be a couple hundred thread wraps( it seemed like thousands at the time) and one of the reasons that I said laziness wasnt a reason for my doing the very top wrap on Guide feet with e sized threads when doing Tuna rods..how did mr L*ski make out with his rods transition set up???

Just a couple sprial pics.
Amtak 1209 sprialed for jigging the Ditch

One more of the same rod turned 180

I like the spiral idea for shorter , heavier rods but not for long surfcasting rods. I think the cocept fo reducing twist applies to the longer rods but i just think you will lose distance in casting.

The A vs EE thread thing is way out there IMO. Maybe arguing about A vs C but A vs EE is a pretty extreme difference. Anyway , I wrap everything I can with A. It takes time to be able to get a perfect wrap with A. Anyone can make a wrap with D thread look good.

I honestly thing the strongets guide wrap is one with a layer of A theard , a coatong of finish , then a second layer of A thread and finish. I don't think multi layers of thread adds threads unless you can penetrate all the layers with finish. That is one thing I liek about LS Spreme. Its so thin it penetrates nicely. I prefer to use Classic Coat or Amtack overall and use heat after its applied to make it thin and pentrate btter..

Anyway , lots of topics covered here but on the original question , I don't think spiral guides are optimal for long surfcasting rods.

Oh , BTW , to answere the question , a rod that is properly built to match you and your application WILL enable you to catch more fish.

The old saying is that a nice rod will not make a bad fisherman good but it will make a good fisherman better! :)

Sorry was away went to see my youngest graduate from Parris Island.Looks good FA did you do that with 20 first guide and then go to 12 then 10*s kind of hard to judge size in pic.How does it now cast.You using with 4 0r 5 oz jigs.Have been seeing stuff about using high frame for first guide to get it way out to side so transition stays off blank.Any problems with it being close. Mostly interested in how it casts.----Yes Salt I do mostly A work Just happened to mention I used larger on 80-130 rods as top wrap. One of my mentors used to do even these in all A thread and its tough to do because of the thickness of the feet on the large roller guides.Takes a lot of shaping to get A up onto foot of an aftco 52 roller.Now at the risk of coming under neuclear attack was thinking if you just wrapped on guides with A from the flat part and coated you wouldnt even have to shape foot and guide would be completely filled in underneath so penatration wouldnt even be an issue.Then go and wrap from blank onto foot.Now thats getting Lazy!!!! Wounder how the cracking would be in the Epoxy---- Coating between wraps sure makes it easier to wrap A over A because it doesnt keep falling into previous trac(gutter) between threads. Are you letting it set a couple of days between coats to harden up because I have seen the A groove right into the epoxy and then its just about impossible to burnish the thread if there is even the slightest gap.

Those are BNLG's.. Stripper is a 25, then went 20, 16, 16, and 12's out. BMNAT12 alconite tip. Didn't go with the high framed stripper because it's a fast action blank. Was able to push the stripper guide out 31" without it touching the blank under load. Have used the high framed guides on a few glass rods when the extra clearence was needed. As far as casting goes, I notice no difference between this and a regular conventional. Have even taken the same blanks wrapped both ways and tossed them side by side.

Thank you FA--would like to try this just for my own curiosity so I think I will.

Bawana, congrat's on your kids graduation, so whatcha think of PI?

Was very clean and very nice --went all over the island and saw all the historical hot spots from the old dry dock used as far back as for iron clad ships from just after the civil war to the great marine museum.Lots of history on that island.My sister used to live about 5 miles up-river right on factory creek on the next island(ladys island) and I have been by it a bunch of times coming down the Beaufort river heading out to fish but that was the first time I was actually on that island.I can get you a good deal on a house with 68 ft.dock on deep water.Stayed with my niece who lives still on St Helenas island(about 15 min drive) while we were there.I*ve been going down there for about 12/13 years and that area is really changing.I cant even imagine what the real estate value of Parris Island would now be.The ocean views from the base housing is incredable.I had no idea it was as big as it is.Kid loved it even though it was anything but a vacation for him.Yes we are extremely proud of him.The ceremonies were great and we got to meet MAX the english bulldog mascott.