I'm curious to hear what other's think about the spine. IMO - it's WAY overrated. I do think the guides should be placed on or 180 from the spine, but I just think the big deal people make about it is far greater than teh impact it makes when using the rod.

I do think the spine plays a role in casting accuracy, an off-spined rod might cause the line to miss it's target due to twisting, etc.

As far as fish fighting goes, I think the placement of the guides has much more impact on how hte rod performs than the spine does. Take a spinning rod, where the spine has been ooops-edly placed off to one side of teh rod (90 degrees off). You're fighting a 30 pound fish, do you think the rod is going to twist becasue the rod is off spine?

Anyway, would love to hear what others here think.

Billy, I had an experience casting a friends store bought rod that was improperly spined rod at 90 degrees from where it should have been. When it would drive me nuts was on the cast, not when catching fish. You could noticeably feel the rod shimmy when you cast it. It was not so much a noticeable twist in my hands but you could definately feel a wierd vibration that would go through the rod when the rod was loaded. I attributed that to the rod tip not staying in the same plane as the rest of the rod when loaded.

If you have a fly rod tip that is improperly spined try this. Take the tip only, and run about a 6 or 7 ft piece of line through it. Tie the line of at the bottom of the tip so that you leave 3 or 4 ft hanging out the end. Whip the line back and forth and you definately will feel the rod section twisting in your hand when you load it.

Now does this all amount to a hill of beans to the average fisherman? Probably not. But to somebody who builds or uses custom rods. It probably would.

I think its very importatnt on a conventional and less so on a spinner. however , its so easy to spine a rod , why not just do it right?

spine plays a very important role, be a it a fly, conv, spin, or spiralled rods/blanks. the lighter the application or rod, the more the rod takes the forces involved (we're talking conv here). on a heavier rod (such as wire line or offshore) the angler starts to take some of the force by also fighting the rod from twisting in their arm. guides assist in keeping the line from touching a blank and in some applications, keeping the center of gravity low. certain guides perform better in certain applications than others. too few guides can lead to line touching the blank and additional stress on the blank. too many can make for a heavier rod, stiffer rod, and a waste of time and money.

do i think a rod spined 5-10 degrees off is going to hurt the rod, no. do i think a rod the is spined 45, 90, or more degrees of is going to hurt? yes - it can damage the footing of the guide, impart additional stress on an angler's wrist, arm, or shoulder, lead to accuracy issues, and possibly damage a blank internally in time.

do i think some are too anal about how they build a custom rod? yes, but that's their philosophy and right. with every rod you learn something be it good or bad. every rod builder has their traits, characteristics, strengths, and weaknesses.

the spine is the basic and first step in building a rod. why not take advantage of something that every blank has?

Why is it so important on either?

Naturally working with something is better then working against it right. Takes little time....why not?

Jeez, like pulling teeth. Simple question - obviously, if you read the other thread, or noticed this "I do think the guides should be placed on or 180 from the spine" from this thread, you'd know I spine the rods. That ain't the question though, I could care less who spines the rod or how - I'm just wondering what your opinion is regarding the actual effectivenes and advantages of it - nothing more, and nothing less.

B~

The effectiveness IMO is important. Having teh guides in line & on spine or 180 out is critical. My barometer for this is a rod that my "friend" made for me a long time ago. Got into some nice fish and the rod twisted in my hand - right to teh spine. The guides are just off the spine, one side or the other.
Not exactly sure what you are looking for with on or 180 out.
Spin = weak spine guide side (inside)
Conventional = opposite above
Fly = either.

Does it matter - absolutely. Casting (power) Casting (accuracy). I believe teh fisher will unknowingly tweek the rod in their hand much like a golf club for accuracy. You tweak the rod cause you know how it feels twists etc from experience with it so you can get your plug exactly where it needs to be. Just like fireing that Daisy red rider bb gun. ("you'll shoot you eye out kid") You adjust where the round inpacts cause the sight is not adjustable. If on the spine then there is little to no adjustment.
Fish fighting
Effectiveness - on a boat rod done correct it gives a stronger rod to fight the fish or the bottom - I'm told you could even turn a boat around in the canal when hung up.;)

am I close to answering your question?

Rods want to twist so thatthe spine moves opposite to the applied load. So the elimination or at least minimization of twist is one issue. I find conventional rods that see good bends (like a canal rod) are unbearable if the spoine is off. Accuaracy and power have already been mentioned.

let me reverse the question Billy , "Why not spine them"? :)

I am reluctant to be a dorky engineer with this one , but perhaps it may shed some light.. The combined stresses in a fishing rod under load, either during the cast or when retrieving a fish are made up of a combination of both bending and torsional stresses. These two stresses combine to give you a total stress, which is something that an engineer takes into account when sizing shafts for their proper size for a particular application. (A loaded fishing rod is really no different than a shaft under bending and torsional loads.)

Now for a given fishing rod that you're using, the applied bending stress during the cast is a function of lure weight, how hard you cast and how long the rod is. When you hook up to a fish, the bending stress is a function of how hard a fish is pulling, the angle you hold the rod, and how your drag is set.

But, and this is "the big but", the amount of torsional stress on the rod is determined by the load and the application point of the load away from the centroid (centroid is the center of mass of the cross section of the rod at a given location). So by aligning the guides with the spine you can reduce the amount of torsional stress by keeping the load application point in a vertical plane close to the centroid. And this will reduce the level of your combined stresses in the fishing rod. For lightweight, thin wall thickness, casting rods that are prone to breakage, this is in my view, a critical concern of rod building.

That is my opinion of why I always put the guides on the spine. :)

Ed

Ed=Poindexter= Dork! :) But I agree.

BTW Ed , don't forget to figure the wall thickness , taper and material modulus into your Cosmos FEA, :)

So by aligning the guides with the spine you can reduce the amount of torsional stress by keeping the load application point in a vertical plane close to the centroid.

Or you can just spiral wrap it and eliminate this torque rather than reduce it. That's my point more than anything else.

Salt - that's not the reverse of my question, I never said not to spine them, just that the spine is overrated.

Chris - Casting - I agree, even fish fighting, to a degree, I agree. BUT, and here is my BIG butt (and my point) - if you are trying to build a stronger rod for fish fighting, you would be building a more effective tool spiral wrapping rather than with the spine on top. With all the emphasis people place on the spine being used as a fish fighting tool, I would think there'd be 100 times more emphasis on people spiral wrapping the rod for the same purpose.

Repeat of another post - tape guides on a conventional rod, spine up, static deflect, guide roll to teh bottom. Rather than the blank fighting the fish 100%, the blank is fighting keeping the line on top, your wrist is fighting the reel & rod to keep the line on top - rather than 100% of your & blanks effort fighting the fish.

You going to the National? Anyone going to the Rodcrafter's National for that matter?

Thanks Saltheart, coming from you that Poindexter-Dork title means a lot to me. I will bring extra pocket protectors with me to the next club meeting if you need any :) .

Billy, I agree with what is said about the advantages of spiral wrap as a fish fighting rod. Personally though I don't boat fish, so for the few rods I build for myself my main concern is casting. PS. (Spiral wrap looks funny) :D

Ed

No arguement that the spiral wrap looks funny, but similar to the acquired taste we all have for beer (remember the first sip of beer - for me YUCK!) you get used to how it looks to the point that it is normal. I picked up an old rod I had with straight guides, and it looked wrong to me. How that for a messed up perspective? lol.

As far as casting with them, that's another topic - I cannot comment on because I don't surf fish though (although I will add a whole lot more than my 2 cents regardless)

Billy

From what I have seen spiral wrapping a rod (especially boat) is the way to go. I just havent tried it yet:smash:

National - leaning towards not. $$$$

I currently have wrappers block. Cant decide on a pattern or colors. I am all consumed with the surfster lip unvailing.

C

ok, billy, i understand your point. sure, spiralling is effective and it works. i've built some spiralled rods and they do work. but, now i want to ask you a related question -

what sense does it make for me to build a rod spiralled if it's not spined correctly? if it's not spined correctly, the spiral method is useless.

"if it's not spined correctly, the spiral method is useless."

Why?

Seawolf - I think you are the victim of falling into my "trap". Let's say the sprial rod is off spined 90 degrees. You're fighting a fish, will the rod twist up becasue that is where the spine is? Or will it stay put because the spine is way overrated? lol.

ok, billy. i was waiting for the trap to be unveiled. but, i don't see how i fell for it.

ok, let's take an example. i have a wire line boat rod w/ a 4/0 on it. glass, graphite, whatever blank material. i have 300' of wire out and a sizable fish on to apply a load on the rod. now, let's take my rod in this example. let's say i just threw the rod together not caring one bit about the spine at all - i just built it and most likely the spine is off somehow. the guides are on top of the blank as a typical conv. now, this rod is under load and i'm holding the rod - gimble in my gut, left hand gripped formly on the foregrip, left forearm supporting the 4/0 left side sideplate. right hand cranking. ok, my forearm is supporting the weight and twisting/torquing of the 4/0 on the rod (remember, this reel weighs 2 pounds). so, can i get this fish in? sure. is the rod torquing? i don't know, my left forearm and left hand in combination w/ my right hand is supporting the reel/rod. plus, i don't care, i have a fish on the other end and this is how i've fished for 20 years. what's the tip of the rod doing? well, it may not be doing too much at all other than being pulled down from my applied force to lift and the fish's applied force to run deep. is the tip of the blank noticably torquing? it may not be, since the rod is pretty strong for this purpose of wire lining. what's happening internally in the rod? the blank is fighting the torquing from the applied forces, but because of how the rod is built and how the forces are being applied, the rod is forced into its built position. am i damaging the rod internally? only time will tell, but i would say yes. am i more fatigued after landing several fish in this manner? sure, but i'm used to it as i just caught a few nice fish.

ok, now a mate comes out of the cabin w/ this drunk rod builder's "idea'. "ok, dude, whatever, just get me more fish." same deal, 300' of wire out, 4/0, same blank material, holding the rod in the same manner, etc. i get a fish one, another good one. i'm not even paying attention to the rod since i got another fish on. but, it's funny how the rod is very comfortable and "happy" in its position once a force is applied down and i start pumping this fish in. i also notice i'm not feeling the reel in my forearm anymore as i don't need to rest the reel there. the fish is in. how do i feel? happy, i landed a 30. am i more tired? did i even notice a difference?

the point i am trying to make in this example is most people would never notice the difference no matter how the rod is built. some may. most are more concerned and focused on fighting the fish and landing it. i'd be surprised how many freshwater anglers w/ their ultra light rods have ever noticed their rod torquing if built typically. ask a giant tuna or billfisherman how they feel after fighting a fish for an hour, 2, 3, 6...would a sprialled rod make their battle easier? i believe so. would the rod benefit? i believe so as it wants to stay w/ the reel up and not torque. that's less energy i need to apply in worrying about the rod torquing and more for this large battle.

so, back to your "trap". if i have a rod spined 90 degrees off and spiral wrapped, a fish on, applied pressure by me to lift the rod and applied pressure by the fish to go deep. how's the rod? well, it wants to torque internally because the spine is 90 degrees off - spiralled or not. will i notice it? maybe, maybe not. now, my left hand my be griping the rod tighter and left forearm may come into play to rest the sideplate against it, as well as my right hand balancing any other forces to keep a balance while i reel. so, what did the spiral wrap do for me in this rod? not much. i'm once again fighting the applied forces both myself and internally in the rod.

so, what i have done is this unproperly spined spiral rod is not take advantage of the qualities of every rod has built internally, a spine.

ok, billy. why is a spine not important? i want your opinion.
why not, saltheart?

if i have a rod spined 90 degrees off and spiral wrapped, a fish on, applied pressure by me to lift the rod and applied pressure by the fish to go deep. how's the rod? well, it wants to torque internally because the spine is 90 degrees off - spiralled or not

Whether the rod wants to torque or not, it CANNOT, and the rod will be stable. The line ALWAYS seeks the lowest point, regardless of where the spine is located. The rod will not twist up becasue the strength of the spine is nil compared to the weight of a fish, a lure, whatever. Physic-ally, it is impossible.

Why the spine is not as important as people make it out to be - becasue it really does nothing for the stability of the rod except assist you in balancing the rod as it tries to flip upside down. In comparison to a rod where teh guides are placed where the line wants to go (underneath, you can see this static deflecting a traditional set up with tape) - the rod will perfom better. Having the spine up with a spiral wrap will not matter as for fish fighting, but it may make a diff when casting.

AS for not noticing - it doesn't matter if people notice or not, traditional guides on top rods ALL want flip over, regardless of spine, but the strength of the fisherman prevents it. Spiral wraps FORCE the reel on top, where it belongs when the rod is loaded.

Remember , I advocate spioning all rods. But as to why not , On a spinner and a spiral wrapped rod , the rod just wants to keep the tip guides down. So it doesn't matter much where the spine is the rod is not going to twist. .

ok, billy. i've understood where this has gone since it originally started. i do agree that i can spiral a rod w/ the spine where ever and the reel will stay on top when under pressure. but, i still argue for several reasons - my casting is effected if spined incorrectly, i'm not taking advantage of something that each rod has naturally, and i feel that internally something is happening to the blank over time due to a uncorrectly spined rod. fibers are compressing and elongating internally each time that rod is cast and/or fought. for a rod that may not be ever casted (bottom fishing, wire line, offshore) it may not be an issue. or will it?

as for a spinning rod spinned where ever, how could that ever help? we just said how casting is effected. in suffishing, this is extremely important, as is for tournament fw bass anglers. when i'm spining a blank for spinning, i hit the spot where the blank wants to jump. if i try to keep the blank right on that spot where the blank wants to jump left or right, it's difficult. so, if i throw guides right there is that rod going to perform correctly when fighting a fish?

so, we've discussed this issue at great length. few have taken on the issue on in this thread. some interesting points have been discussed. but, i still do not believe we have made a true case for the spine of a rod not being important or being over-emphasized. if something is negatively impacted, then the spine is important.

I'm a fan of proper spining, however, I'll add that someetimes a fly rod is built with the spine off by 90 deg. This is to compensate for sidearm caster. I uset to build alot of fly rods for a shop on Long Island and I was asked to build them this way. As for spiral wrapping... Definitely a great way to go. Billy showed me one of his and under load that darn thing jumped to the upright position. Very cool indeed. Funny looking? Aaah... Who cares LOL!
CD

After you statically find the spine do you dynamically check for vertical deflection?????because I never do but I read a reply about this on rod crafters and thought If I havent noticed this as a problem by now it probably isnt one.This is a fishing rod not a launching of the space shuttle.I*m still trying to figure out if they spined a rod made out of a stick of bamboo or a turned down hunk of ash wood when spiralwrapping was first introduced or if this method is coming back as an added benifit to a rod that has a natually occuring abnormality in the manufacturing process (AKA the spine)of a wrapped fiberglass or graphite blank.What do you do if you have a blank that has a curve in it that is in direct confrontation with the spine.IF you think its so overrated why do you use it? Your building the rod do it anyway you want.I thought the whole idea of building your own rods was to get them exactly how you want them.If your happy not spining them DON*T.

another small guestion --which is worse a blank being able to follow its natural desire to twist slightly with a load on it or its being forced to remain in a stationary preloaded position because of the guides being place in a position that geometrically forces it to maintain a position.A couple of years ago I had the unforseen opportunity to hook of with a really large harbor porpoise(It was at least 6 ft longand I at first thought it was a tuna) in the canal Just off the mud flats on Bell Rd on a Wsb1204M blank with a 980 penn conventional.It had BSVLG guides on it which are a little higher framed guides then what I normally use for this type of Rod.They are billed as an All purpose guide so I decided to try them as conventional.I was using 20lb test ande pink mono.I stopped the fish or mammal on three runs and didnt know what it was until it surfaced right next to some guy fly fishing out on the bar.I saw only minumal twisting of the guides on the blank and was worried more about the line breaking during the 20/25 minutes I was fighting it while it made Jumps clear out of the water on the other side by the corp of engineers station and ran towards a tanker coming up the canal.The rod was spined---the guides were on the spine and I just dont see blank twist as that much of a problem.And yes he finally got away by dragging the line on the rocks at the bottom till it chaffed and broke on its fourth run. SOOOOOO? at what point does this blank twisting become a serious problem if ever?

oh ya I forgot to mention the blank was 19 years old at the time and was used every year for chunking and had caught many many fish and was actually on its second wrap.It doesn*t appear that blank life is a problem either from being wrapped spine up.It even had a small crush where the reel was tightened on it with the penn clamp when it just had wrapped cork handle. On the second wrap this was covered with an old varmac aluminun reel seat.