I am in need of information pertaining to "beach/water access".

I need to know the EXACT rules/laws/regulations in regards to public access to a public resource such as a bay, LITTLE NECK BAY.

For instance I live in New York City, Borough of Queens. There is a bay in question, Little Neck Bay, and the part of it I am concerned with lies TOTALLY within the NYC borders, and the streets bordering this part are also ALL NYC streets.


QUESTION. Am I right that neither NOBODY nor NO ASSOCIATION can deny the PUBLIC access to a PUBLIC RESOURCE? If they "own/maintain" the very perimeter land, and do not want anyone to traverse the 12 foot wide section of grass in order to get to the water, can they LEGALLY have NYPD issue trespass summonses. Don't "they" have to provide an easement?

Any and all help is GREATLY APPRECIATED in this matter.

Thank you in advance,
Mike Lang

Sounds like a question for MikeP. :hihi:

Mike -

FWW is probably right - with MikeP being an attorney and a NY resident, he may be a valuable resource for you and answer questions specific to NY.

In RI, we now face - and have faced in the past - issues concerning access. Fortunately for us, the University of Rhode Island undertook a study of all the public rights of way in the state and published their findings - with maps - in a spiral bound volume that you should be able to find pretty easily by a Google search. Don't remember exactly the title (oddly enough, the Sea Grant people who were involved in the study had a booth right next to one I was showing my work in at the RISAA show in Prov. this past weekend).

Anyway, if nothing like this exists in NY for you to help address your problem, perhaps seeing the URI Sea Grant study will serve as a guide for you in where to look. It was done with Federal funding though I'm not sure when - but fairly recently.

If this sort of thing doesn't exist for you, you've got a long dusty trail ahead of ya. If I were you I'd find a group of like-minded people to help you out - discovering information on rights of way will take a lot of time and legwork, as you no doubt know by now. Your fishing club is certainly the best place to start, if nothing's been done yet by any local agencies to delineate the right of way, use your club elders as a resource to establish historical usages. Like I said, find people to get involved, but it sounds like you might have already - the old saw about many hands making light work will be true in this case. But check state or federal resources first - it may be easier than you think.

We have a number of similar situations going on here in RI and at the next Newport County Saltwater Fishing Club meeting a week from today I'm gonna donate some money from a raffle I held at the RISAA show to help establish a shoreline access defense fund to insure that we - and our children and grandchildren - will be able to continue to fish the same spots we've all enjoyed for years. In RI those riparian rights were granted to all residents by state charter in colonial times for the purposes of gathering fish and shellfish and the gathering of seaweed by ox and horsecart to be used as fertilizer.

Sorry if this was long-winded but it's a complex issue to deal withand a lot of places along the Eastern seaboard are dealing with the same issue. Ultimately, it's all about the money involved with shorefront properties. Everyone in RI thinks the prices for oceanfront properties here are obscene but in relative terms they're bargain-basement priced for those people from CT and New York who have deeper pockets than us. Hell, priced anything in the Hamptons lately?

At any rate, good luck, Mike - fight the good fight.

Hey, if memory serves I remember you saying you're a surfer too -we've posted in regards to it before, I know - just remember, don't back down, dude.

If ya need anything else, PM me. Maybe DZ will jump in here (he's dealt with this sort of thing before here in Newport) or Fish_Eye, who may be able to give you contacts within URI's Sea Grant (Mike's done work for them) who could then pass you on to the Feds. I think getting URI's public access book would be a great start for ya just to let you see what was done elsewhere.

Best of luck - :btu:

the University of Rhode Island undertook a study of all the public rights of way in the state and published their findings - with maps - in a spiral bound volume is this it?

http://seagrant.gso.uri.edu/daytrip/

Mike,

You will want to contact UMS (United Mobile Sport Fishermen). This is a National Organization that is made up mostly of beach buggy clubs and has the largest collection of knowledge regarding access and the laws that pertain. If I am correct, I beleive there is a UMS board member that brought up the exact location you mention in one of his reports. There are a couple of influential Ny Organizations as members.

I suggest you go to the web site and e-mail the board. Someone will get back to you. You can do this through the web site www.umsnet.com If you do not get anywhere in a week, PM me and I can get you a phone number directly.

Yes, I am a board member

I think private property begins where the high tide tops off at then inland. Anything below that is public.

That would be my arguement, then I'd get kicked out.

Fishsmith..
Unfortunetly, Mass (and Maine) are "low tide states" where private property extends to MLW... attempts have been made to change this, but the amount of lawsuits claiming a "taking" would be astronomical... (For RI people read up on the Palazolo (sp) Case...)
In RI Private property extends to MHW, which for more people is equivelent for the Wrack line (the sea weed line)

Good luck...
Bryan

Mike,
I replied to you on Noreast. Good luck, the people you are trying to fight have lots of money, good lawyers and the NYC government behind them.

They also have sewers dumping into the bay that were "secretly" found to be not to code.


I am going to make a federal case out of this.


THANKS ALL FORE THE RESPONSES AND INSIGHT>>>>

Good luck Mike ..and bury those basstages

I caught a tagged bass , sent in the tag and got my hat. The "certificate" said it was tagged in Little Neck Bay:cool:

This is something we all have to get involved in. I think its great that a R.I. university secured that grant and published it. Many times in Massachusetts people I know have been told to leave different areas. The parking issue seems to be the underlying means that officers use to get people out of certain areas. This is because at the end of many roads, even if they are public ways there is not much room to park. And any place in this commonwealth when an operator of a motor vehicle parks on a public way and there is not ten feet of lane left for vehicles to pass in the same direction then there is a violation. That means that after tagging, the vehicle in violation can be towed. But beyond this there are many rights of way that are obscured and overgrown and the law clearly states it is the property owners repsonsibilty to clear these rights of way, each owner giving an equal share of land to the right of way and clearing an equal share of that land, so that those who want may pass through to gain access to the beach. I think its about time that a study be propsed in that very same regard that was done in R.I. here in Massachusetts. I don't deny anybody with money the right to buy beach front property but I take offense when because of their money they think they can change the rules.
What it boils down to for everyone in Mass. is that if they want to fish someplace and their are signs prohibiting parking there they should go to the town clerks office in that town and ask if those signs were placed there after the town fathers voted in the affirmative when someone made application for no parking signs to be placed wherever there is a question as to the legality of any signage. Someone who lives on a street cannot place signs of any kind that direct anyone to do anything with regard to any law.
Check with each town that you fish in. Don't rely on word of mouth, rumor, or third hand information, because that as a defense to a parking ticket or worse is no defense.

THANK YOU ALL FOR THE RESPONSES AND INSIGHT,


***UPDATE***


I have a friend that is very involved with access issues in regards to Breezy Point. He called the other night and told me of a dinner he is to have this week with a few people from the Govt. and an Assemblyman. Long story short, he is going to bring this up, and call me with all the pertinent info.

ALSO there has been, officially, a package delivered to the U.M.S. regarding this issue with promises to look into it with full steam.

I will keep all updated and thanks again...

Mike L.