You guys see this? I heard about it on the radio.
I really can't stand this guy.

http://www.swiftvets.com/

I understand why there is so much emotion among vets for Kerry's protests, but this is nothing more than an attempt to smear someone who served.

Already one of the vets in the video has come out and changed his story from "Kerry shot a teenager in the back and lied to get his silver star" to "I believe he deserved it, I really wasn't there" or something like that. There's a story on boston.com about it.

Regardless these guys are being funded by some Republicans in Texas and it's all political. Kerry may have his own demons to deal with, but what's going on here is sick.

-spence

I doubt it, these are some big names in there including an admiral. These guys would be liable for slander if their accusations were false, unlike Moore's Farr. 911, this is a funded political add and cannot make false accusations and get away with it.
Kerry's lawyers tried to stop the add but the vets say they have the documentation to prove it.

AHHH, THE WAR HERO....WAS HE ON THE 3 HR TOUR ....

How can someone who has come back from Vietnam and amditted to comitting war crimes also be a war hero?

vote " none of the above "

hell no we wont go !

Kerry should have seen this coming a mile away....after all the talking he did at the DNC telling everyone a million times he was a war hero of course some of his crewmates and people he knew in Vietnam were gonna critisize his ass! Memo to John Kerry: tell me what your gonna do for this country right now....we get you served in Vietnam but talk about what the F@%@ you are gonna do for the country now! And one more memo to the dems before they start ripping Bush....Kerry is the one that brought Vietnam into the Campagn not W.

am here to talk to you today because of John Kerry I would be dead if it were not for that man and this is the truth pm me if you really care how and what he did for me. and yes I am a vet who supports John Kerry like the hundreds of thousands he has helped.

mrmacey, please post your story for all to see. i'm sure there is alot of interest.

does it have anything to do with ketchup ?

:)

http://www.swiftvets.com


Def worth looking at this site

I for one
am here to talk to you today because of John Kerry I would be dead if it were not for that man and this is the truth pm me if you really care how and what he did for me. and yes I am a vet who supports John Kerry like the hundreds of thousands he has helped.


Please post the story....I thinik we would all be interested in hearing from someone who served with Kerry. Especially someone from here on SB

Lets hear what the national guardsmen say about George Bush Jr's service in vietnam?? oh wait.. was he there?
Yep Propaganda.....and I bet for shure that each one of them are republicans

RIJIMMY, how are you going to feel when Bush invades Iran next year??

why the F@%@ do you keep ripping on the national guard? In case you didnt know national guard troops are called to serve in combat all the time. My dad was in in the Army during the Vietnam era but just so happend he didnt get sent over there. He was readyand willing to go. In the guard.,thy served the country with honor. At least he didnt run to Canda like that Pussy Clinton. Funny, I dont hear anyone of you dems bring up Clintons cowardness during Vietnam. Now thats a guy that desrves to get criticized. That pussy:af:

But Ill tell you how he helped me I was a down and out drug addict and drunk at the ends of my ropes with no where to turn and no where to go theres a place in Boston 17 court st where a veteran like me could go to for help. two people helped keep that place going in the begining Kerry and Moakley if it wasnt for them two fighting for funding there would be no help out there for the struggling veteran what are these boys gonna do when they come back whos gonna help them bush gave all the money to blowup and then rebuild other countries cut all our programs to pay for it because of senators and congressmen like kerry and moakly there will allways be help for the struggling vet and needy people all over today im going on 8 years clean because of the programs I started at 17 court street thank god for men like Kerry.

Yup Macey... Bush says "I support our troops"..but as soon as they come home, screw em... when we went into Iraq family members had to privately purchase body armour for their kids over there.... Yep, thats our government supporting our troops:smash:

thats a touching story BTW- thanks for sharing:kewl:


Hey Skip N... I'm not ripping on the guard....I'm ripping on Bush, and if you couldnt figure that out from my post its no surprise you support bush.

sorry, where was bush in '72??? beats me??
link- (http://www.awolbush.com/)

Bush has all of you fooled....

Awol... a Coke Habit, DWI's.... you never hear about it in the media though....You know why? Because the dudes who own the media Co's want Bush in power so they can get their tax cuts... especially that crap called Fox News... pure Propaganda....


And to continue my rant... think of how many German soldiers died because they thought Hitler was a stand up dude...
If some of you need to vote for this dumbass feel free.. but heres a picture that pretty much sums it all up.
I need to go fishing :smash: :laughs:

Hey Skip N... I'm not ripping on the guard....I'm ripping on Bush, and if you couldnt figure that out from my post its no surprise you support bush.


....(Let's keep it family friendly guys)....you rip on one guy who served honorably in the guard that tells me you have no respect for the others who serve also. The media wants Bush to win is %$%$%$%$%$%$g funny! The left has CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC and ALL the major newspaper pumping up Kerry....Are you that stupid you cant see that? AH well, you are so far left you have no clue what the facts are on anything. Stay in your little fantasy world if you wish. I dont care. Im wasting my time right now responding to your Bull..... Im done with ya...aint worth my time anymore. Move to Canada and you'll fit right in with leftist morons.

F-you? now you sound like #^&#^&#^&#^& Cheney

Bush went awol for a whole year.. how is that honerable service?


oh wait heres proof...


read this (http://www.awolbush.com/)

:D

NOT A BIG SUPPORTER OF EITHER ONE OF THEM. BUT TO YOU KERRY GUYS, I WAITING FOR THE "POP". WHAT'S THE POP YOU SAY? IT'S THE SOUND YOU'LL HEAR WHEN YOU PULL YOUR HEADS OUT FROM UP YOUR ARSE AND SEE THE FRAUD. OH YEAH, THE KETCHUP QUEEN IS A CLASS ACT:rolleyes:

ps i do support programs for all of our vetrans that served us well,not whiney war crininals with self inflicted wounds.

You can challenge Kerry's post war protests, but this notion of challenging all his medals is simply absurd and an insult to the 50,000 who died there.

This is a political attack ad of the lowest kind. Check out:

Republican-funded Group Attacks Kerry's War Record (http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231)

-spence

why is challenging HIS medals an insult to all who served bravely or those who died or were wounded? i'm sure that most vietnam vets would NOT choose him as their poster boy!

The vets who dislike Kerry do so because of his post-war protests, not his time on tour...

It's idiotic for someone on this board to say Kerry's wounds were self inflicted in a negative manner. It's not like he shot himself in the foot to come home. He threw a grenade into a rice bin and was hit by the shrapnel. So now we're going to redefine what it takes to get a Purple Heart because we don't like one of the reciepients? You're disrespecting the entire notion of sacrifice.

Kerry has a lot of men standing behind him, his medals are a matter of public record not open to debate. Who are you going to believe? the man who Kerry actually rescued or a guy in another boat who's still burning over his Senate speech?

I'd ad that the same crew that did this commercial did the attack ad on John McCain in 2000. I care not to remember that sick event.

-spence

the vets that i know consider kerry's protest bs AN INSULT to those who served and died there!

Fine. Like I said...separate his service from his protest.

-spence

FINE... THEY'RE BOTH SAD.

:rolleyes:

If had not protested would you think anything less of his service?

-spence

spence, if what i'm reading is true, i think his service was less than honorable. when he got that 3rd purple heart, grenade incedent, his c/o actually denied it and kerry was very persistent and went thru great lenghts to obtain it. knowing, i believe , about the 3 rd purple heart rule, which allowed him to seek transfer from combat. only man to ever leave s/ boats without serving i yr tour, with exception of dead or wounded. he walked out on his fellow servicemen.

Whos the smarter man? the one who amits that he is wrong for fighting or the man who dies swinging without any thought?
We lost the war in Vietnam... there was no winning that one and Kerry knew it. Sorry, but when I see a leak in my boat I jump ship I dont go down with it.
Kerry fought with honor, and when he came home he said, hey this war is stupid, tens of thousands of amrericans troops have died for this cause, so lets make it stop. He proteested on ending teh war, and getting our troops home safe...I would have done the same thing.


I dont think Kerry is the best either, but for me, he's a better choice than bush.. and right now, hes the only alternative. Bush will ruin this country in another 4 years.... He'll go after Iran or North Korea (remember they actually do have WMD)... i'd bet a plug on that, and then how many people will have died? does anyone have kids that are about 16 or 18?? you can probably count on a draft in that case-

Another thing about bush... he keeps saying how he wants to create new jobs in the US and the economy is recovering.. o.k. thats fine, but with all of the free trade pacts he has signed which allow american companies to go and outsource in cheap labor countries, how is it possible to claim millions have new industrial jobs in america?? The Bush team is claming that working at fast food restraunts is industrial... yep thats lying and he lied to all of us again. Did anyone cry foul? no......
If you read between the lines Bush has been the most secretive president in our history, the most reckless, and the most decieving... and definately the least elloquent.

Originally posted by afterhours
spence, if what i'm reading is true, i think his service was less than honorable.
Is this a balanced observation or are you basing your opinion on his service on what someone who is motivated by his post-war actions has said?

-spence

Originally posted by Eben
Sorry, but when I see a leak in my boat I jump ship I dont go down with it.
As an aside, if there is a war and Eben and I are drafted...please let the record show that I don't want to be in his boat :smash:

-spence

:smash: but Spence... if we both jumped ship, you could be my Vice P- :laughs:

eben, you're a bright guy who maks a some good points ie: free trade agreements(they suck). i just think that kerry is more of a snake(no disrespect to snakes). in war i believe you fight for your fellow soldiers next to you, he deserted them. as far as iran goes i agree with you, i predicted this in a post - election side effects. i think kerry is the worst of the evils at this time. less trust in him than anyone out there.

I agree you don't leave your men, and when Eben jumps ship I'll probably still be in the boat :eek: I don't know if you can really say Kerry "abandoned" his men though. At what point is enough enough? Unless you were there, I don't see how anyone can argue his wounds weren't really that bad etc...and of the limited people who do have firsthand experience the comments seem to go both ways.

The net of it all is that it doesn't really make much sense to be bickering over Kerry's purple hearts in a near Monty Python fashion when the coutry has real issues to solve.

You mention trust as being so important, and I agree it is one of the most important qualities in a leader.

So what you're saying is that you feel less trust in Kerry based on the behavior of a very young man fighting in a very nasty war...

...than you do in our current President, when (by current polls) almost half the country believes he misled the country on Iraq?

Something to ponder.

-spence

Yeah but Afterhours Kerry fought next to his soldiers for 3 tours of duty....He didnt desert them... when he was done he went home.. IMO Bush deserted in a huge fashion by going AWOL for a whole year when he was in the Air national guard.. I gotta say that to me, bush is the biggest snake out there, and when you read into what he's about, its all lies and coverups...
Heres another coverup.. the 'no child left behind' act.. remember that one? I dont know the exact numbers, but lets say he cuts education funding by 30% and no-one hears about it.. then theres all this talk in the news about how bush is passing the 'no child left behind act'..... We wouldnt have to worry about any child being left behind if he hadnt cut 30% of the educational budget :smash:

I still think Kerry will steer our country to a better place than bush will..

Ummmm....technically federal funding for education has gone up under Bush :smash:

-spence

I hate politics :(

3 tours of duty? Wasnt he there for 4 months? wouldnt 3 tours of duty meen he was there for 3 years?:smash:

gotta check skip... but i'm almost certian it was 3 tours of duty-

Spence.. really? hmm I guess I was wrong-

Toonoc- soo do i but I hate whats going on more than I hate polotics:(

Originally posted by afterhours
spence, if what i'm reading is true, i think his service was less than honorable.
Thought I would also pass this along. George Elliot is one of the swiftvets against Kerry. Here's what george had to say about John Kerry in 1969...
"In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action, LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every opportunity. On one occasion, while in tactical command of a three boat operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly assessed the situation and ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush. This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several KIA. LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the Vietnamese language and is instrumental in the successful Vietnamese training program. During the period of this report LTJG Kerry has been awarded the Silver Star medal, the Bronze Star medal, the Purple Heart medal (2nd and 3rd awards)."[U.S. Navy, Officer Fitness Report signed by George Elliott; 18, Dec 1969]
And then in 1996 He said this about John Kerry...
"The fact that he chased an armed enemy down is not something not to be looked down upon but it was an act of courage. And the whole outfit served with honor..."[T]here was no question that it was above and beyond anything that we had seen down there in that case at that time frame...It just so happened that this one was so outstanding that the Silver Star was eventually awarded." [Kerry Press Conference, 10/27/96]
Then Elliot calls him a liar in the swiftvet commercial, then retracts it :confused:

Originally posted by Eben
gotta check skip... but i'm almost certian it was 3 tours of duty-

Spence.. really? hmm I guess I was wrong-

Toonoc- soo do i but I hate whats going on more than I hate polotics:(
He served a bit over 4 months, taking the option to leave early because he had 3 Purple Hearts.

Education spending has gone up, but don't think No Child Left Behind isn't still a sham. There isn't a method for the schools who need help to get it and the money isn't really being used. The act punishes schools punatively for not meeting the criteria.

The net effect is that schools are teaching for the tests and the kids suffer...

-spence

I could be wrong Ebon But I totally thought he served 4 months then left. Sorry for them F bombs also! I get all riled up like most talking politics! :D

'tis alright Skip, F-bombs have thier place.... especially in the Senate. :hihi:

http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2004/02/02_400.html a good side by side comparrison of Kerry and Bush durring Vietnam... and it looks like I was mistaken about 3 years of service.. but he was wounded 3 times hich sent him home.. my bad:rolleyes:

Spence... yeah I read mother Jones... I admit it :smash:

:D

F-bombs have thier place.... especially in the Senate
:hihi:

MRMACEY- I HOPE YOU HEAR THE POP.

I hear it!! I hear it!!!:laughs: :laughs:

mrmacey betcha 4 quality plugs that you're wrong. you can view some of my work on plug building forum. do you want your taxes to be raised to support lazy people who play the system? better you than me! never claimed to love gwb, just can stand kerry. btw i'm an independant voter and don't blindly follow part lines as some.

mrmacey what happened to your last post- it's gone.

Afterhours.. lazy people can still play the system now with Bush in office... Would you rather have country with a multi-trillion dollar deficet and kids dying every day so we can continue Bush's "crusade"?

The way Bush is cutting taxes and spending more is like a teenager with his first credit card :smash: someone is going to have to pay for it sooner or later...:smash:

maybe i just remember the tax AND spend days of past dem. administrations (carter). and the diverting the $$$ from intelligence agencies (slick willie) that i believe had a direct impact on 9/11. i don't like giant deficets or kids dying . i want them home asap. maybe chrisl was right- the wabbit hunter for pres:D

momma told me never to talk politics online.....

http://politicalhumor.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=politicalhumor&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bushflash.com%2Funb.html

used the girls shirt.

I really cannot comprehend most of the anti - Bush comments.

Eben - He'll go after Iran or North Korea (remember they actually do have WMD)... i'd bet a plug on that, and then how many people will have died? does anyone have kids that are about 16 or 18?? you can probably count on a draft in that case-

What if we DID go after Afghanistan, pre- 9/11? You'd be saying the same thing. But what if, just if, it could have prevented 9/11?? What if?
9/11 was a wake up call for me. I dont give a crap about the UN and they have NO say in the security of MY country.
Look at the UN security council, in 200 years we pretty much had wars with all of them, think they love the US? Think they give a crap about 9/11????

One point to ponder - If Bush was a criminal and a liar - how incredibly easy would it have been to take 20 barrels of sarin gas, a few al-queda manuals and a map of new york and stick them in a bunker in Iraq? Way too easy.. It would ensured Bush's re-election and snubbed all the countries that were against our invasion
The fact that the US did not find WMD only proves Bush is not as dishonest as you say he is.


I'm employed, my company is growing, the economy survived a stock market crash and a terror attack and - we've had NO terrortist attacks on US soil ince 9/11. BUSH - 2004, I hope the next 4 years are as good as this.

Originally posted by RIJIMMY
One point to ponder - If Bush was a criminal and a liar - how incredibly easy would it have been to take 20 barrels of sarin gas, a few al-queda manuals and a map of new york and stick them in a bunker in Iraq? Way too easy.. It would ensured Bush's re-election and snubbed all the countries that were against our invasion
The fact that the US did not find WMD only proves Bush is not as dishonest as you say he is.
This is perhaps the most absurd thing I have ever heard, next to Eben promising he could get me a keeper :rolleyes:

What your saying is that since Bush didn't toss a kilo of coke into the trunk as he was inspecting the car, the police are somehow more credible??? :confused:

9/11 was a wakeup call. Agreed, so why did the Bush admin fight the 9/11 panel's creation and almost refuse to testify before it? Why did Bush refuse to speak under oath before the panel and only with #^&#^&#^&#^& Cheney by his side?

Why is it almost three years since 9/11 and very little has changed in our intelligence services?

Why do 55% of the American people believe we are headed in the wrong direction?

Why does almost helf the country believe Bush misled the country on WMD in Iraq?

:smash:

-spence

Originally posted by RIJIMMY
BUSH - 2004, I hope the next 4 years are as good as this.

enlighten me.. what do you think the next 4 years will be like? Do you think He'll go after Iran or N Korea? Do you think there will be another attack?

Can you honestly say with a straight face that Bush has never decieved the Citizens of the United states?

Originally posted by spence
This is perhaps the most absurd thing I have ever heard, next to Eben promising he could get me a keeper :rolleyes:
-spence

IF you gave me 20 bucks... you never gave me 20 bucks :rtfm:

no wait.. the keepers were there acording to the intellegence givin to me at that time.. but rest assured the narragansett coastline is a safer place since we fishied it... even if there were no keepers and the intelegence was faulty, narraganset is safer:yak:

Originally posted by Eben
no wait.. the keepers were there acording to the intellegence givin to me at that time.. but rest assured the narragansett coastline is a safer place since we fishied it... even if there were no keepers and the intelegence was faulty, narraganset is safer:yak: [/B]
:buds: Eben, we are one :D

-spence

Wait a minute...I must spend trillions of my baby diaper budget trying to find these keepers that dont exist.. You see, my buddy who ownes the tackleshop is going to make a killing off me, and when I retire from fishing, he's going to take real good care of me ;)

Even though there really are keepers at block island.... I'm still staying the course :laughs:

looks like more distortion of the facts by the junior. Just look at the choice of words, etc.

I love it. THIS GUY SCARES THE PISS OUT OF YOU FOLKS :laughs: :laughs:

Now Georgie, he is one of the most HONEST men we have had in the WHouse in ages.


what a joke finger pointing is. From both sides :smash:

:laughs: :laughs:

You live on an island...

ya so.......

Did this guy say GW = honest :confused:

-spence

Originally posted by beachwalker
ya so.......

Do you live on an eeeevil Island?

Spence, I find it hard to use the "most Americans think" or " 55% of Americans think".
Personally, I think most Americans are morons. 60% of Americans are overweight, many smoke cigarettes, many believe what they see on the evening news as 100% and unbiased. Most live their lives in front of the TV. I don't take public opinion as meaning any thing. Neither did our founding fathers, thats why its not the populare vote that elects our president, its the electoral college.

Eb, as far as further "invasions" ....Iraq attacked Kuwait 13 years ago, as part of their "surrender", there where mandatory inspections, mandatory no-fly zones. Iraq kicked out inspectors and randomly shot at US planes enforcing the no-fly zones. Is it okay to shoot at Americas' enforcing the UN negotiated surrender? Think about it, they shot at AMericans, that alone is justification for war in my book. Iraq then let inspectors back in, then failed to comply with the requests. There were 3 UN security council resolutions demanding Iraq comply and promising severe consequences.
All 3 times they did not meet the requirements and all 3 times no country did ANYTHING, nor did the UN. Did you guys forget about all that?
Iran and N. Korea have not invaded their neighbors nor have they violated UN resolutions. N. Korea scares me and I think its a tricky situtation.

I'm not saying Bush is the best president ever, I just believe in the path he has taken. I do not believe he has misled the country I believe he acted in what he thougt was the best course of action. I believe 9/11 is a direct result of Clinton's presidency, and the Democrats cuts in intelligence and defense spending. John Kerry is not a good candidate for President, all he does is play the Vietnam card. He is a mediocre senator with no major initiatives under his belt.
I am not a republican many of my views - pro choice, funding for the arts and familes - side with the Dems. I wish Rudy Giullani was running, I'd vote for him. He also supports Bush.
Im shutting my mouth on this topic. I cannot say I agree at all with most of your arguments but thankfully we live in a country that allows us to discuss.

Sign up another person for Bush's "Scared Right" program.

If you think this country will be any less safe under Kerry, you are only lying to yourself and you have also bought into Bush's campaign startegy of scare tactics. Bush is not the sole provider of proctection from terrorism. Bush has merely seen advent of a new stance on terrorism brought about by 9/11. Previously, it was not okay to just go kill potential terrorists. You could watch them hang out in desert via satellite; however, you could not go into a foreign country to kill these terrorists without that country's explicit permission. After 9/11 it has been open season on terrorists - no questions asked. This change in doctrine is the only difference between Bush and his predecessors. The Bush camp realizes this is the only "achievement" they can campaign on. Accordingly, we have terror alerts over nothing; we are constantly put in a state of fear; we are told that only Bush can calm these threats; we are told the John Kerry can not curtail these threats. Get real. This country will be just as safe with John Kerry as it would be with Bush. So, voting for Bush SOLELY on the grounds of protection from terrorism is illogical at best.

What is more, isn't a war on terrorism just as arbritrary as a war on car accidents or a war on cancer? Wouldn't a potential war on cancer save many, many more lives than a war on terrorism? After all, isn't 200 billion dollars is a hefty pricetag to protect against such a rare way to die as death by terrorism?

Lastly, I am fiercely independent with more of a conservative lean, and I understand and feel that Kerry is not the perfect candidate, but I can't believe people are even considering voting for Bush. He is the epidomy of what's wrong with American politics. He is all negative campaigning. Have you heard one message from Bush that only centerred on Bush, his accomplishments, or record? Didn't think so. Have you seen nothing but a smear campaign? Is how you think American politics should be? Ask yourself. Question your vote, and vote with the facts not some lip service and negative campaigns.

Well said :btu:

-spence

ditto

Im not scared at all. Im confident and I have no fear. You guys are the ones that want a change, so you must be afraid of something.

dc - Wouldn't a potential war on cancer save many, many more lives than a war on terrorism? After all, isn't 200 billion dollars is a hefty pricetag to protect against such a rare way to die as death by terrorism

Stop smoking, exercise, minimize stress and avoid processed foods.
There I just saved the country billions of dollars fighting cancer. Will anyone take my advice? Not likely.


PS - Bush is running a negative campaign? Huh? The media (liberal media by the way) feeds you junk and you eat it up. I do not follow anyone's campaign but do my own research. I do not listen to what the candidates say, I look at what they do.
Pretty tought to do with Kerry, he never did anything but go to Vietnam.

RJ, you should preface your statement that Kerry "never did anything but go to Vietnam" with IN MY OPINION

as a well researched american citizen you must have loads of substantive information to support such a proclamation.

:rolleyes:

Your right BW, hows this:
In my opinion, as a US senator, John Kerry has not achieved anything significant in his position. He has been a follower and not a major leader in any senate comittee or endeavor.


"I oppose abortion, personally. I don't like abortion. I believe life does begin at conception."

- John Kerry

"If Saddam Hussein is unwilling to bend to the international community's already existing order, then he will have invited enforcement, even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act."

- John Kerry

20 years in the US Senate isn't an accomplishment? Just because Kerry hasn't sponsored a ton of bills doesn't mean he hasn't added considerable value and provided significant service.

I happen to share nearly the same position on abortion. Am I contradictory as well?

And your quote is out of context, read the full NYTimes op-ed piece and his position is crystal clear.

-spence

thanks Jimmy. You are a stand up guy.

Do you have a date for the second quote ? Was that before or after the Bush WH conned Congress into thinking that there were WMD's ?

You see I am not informed enough on this issue and you just might be.

I agree with Spence.

Because one DOESN't support abortion doesn't mean that is how you vote.A representatives job is to represent his/her CONSTITUENTS and not use it as a personal position.

Jimmy is a very typical Bush supporter - he knows nothing besides what Karl Rove and Co. has told him to think.

He proved one of my points too. Bush and his minions only focus on attacking Kerry. They NEVER EVER try and laud Bush. Ask them a question about Bush's policy - they answer by bashing Kerry. Ask them about Bush's vision for the future - they answer by bashing Kerry. Ask them about the 420 billion dollar deficit - they answer by bashing Kerry.

Jimmy, it's time you take some information from independent sources. And no, Fox News is not objective.

On the abortion quote, how can you say you believe life begins at conception and then support abortion? That means you support ending a life which = murder. How can you rationalize ending a life?
Is a fundamental belief of pro abortion that life does not begin at conception.

"Is a fundamental belief of pro abortion that life does not begin at conception"

Yes, and it is a fundamental belief of pro-choice that women have a choice regardless of the conception issue. He is pro-choice which is not necessarily pro-abortion.

So he believes that life begins at conception, and he believes in the right to terminate that life? So to rephrase: I believe that baby is alive and I also believe you have a right to kill it.
If you guys don't see the absolute absurdity of that, i give up. Kerry is definitely your man!

I'm going to try and grow up and not look at this thread again, Im a big boy I can do it.....will power

The difference is...do you force your religious beliefs onto others, or does society create laws that are generally accepted for the common good?

It's clear that the majority of Americans believe abortion should remain legal in some form. If that's the case then it's the individual's morality that ultimately drives their choice.

I would think republicans would admire Kerry's position. He's a man of faith and believes in the individual (not govt) making decisions.

-spence

Abortion is the most fickle of issues. Each side will stick to their beliefs no matter what. It is a very divisive issue, and very few people waffle on the issue. However, people have agreed to disagree, and made it an issue of choice. If you feel strongly that an abortion is murder, don't get an abortion. If you feel strongly that abortion is not murder, feel free to get an abortion. There is no right or wrong side to the argument only strong feelings.

Originally posted by beachwalker


Because one DOESN't support abortion doesn't mean that is how you vote.A representatives job is to represent his/her CONSTITUENTS and not use it as a personal position.

Ok I try to stay away from these discussions but I do have to say a few things. 1. If Kerry was voting the way his constituents want he would vote against abortion. Every poll done on this issue says the vast majority of Americans do not want abortion to be legal.

2. Allot of Kerry ( lib's dem's etc etc ) supporters like to run around and say that Bush is only attacking Kerry and not telling us why he is the best candidate. Well from where I stand BOTH of them are doing that NOT just Bush.

3. As for Bush trying to scare everyone into voting for him on the terror issue well the Dem's have been doing that for a long time, Scare the old people, scare the blacks, scare the Hispanics, scare the poor, scare the middle class. What's the difference?

4. Personally I am very tired of the Dem's telling everyone else that they are closed mind. They need to learn that by there criteria they are closed minded as well.

5. Kerry keep's telling us about these wonderful programs HE will institute and that HE will pay for them by repealing the Bush tax cuts, well an economist took all of HIS numbers and matched them up to what HE say's the Govt will get by repealing the tax cut's. Well by HIS numbers HE will spend 4 times as much as the tax cut's HE will repeal.

This is just a small list of problems I have with the Dem's. Someday if I feel the need to do so I will go into some of the problems I have with the Rep's.

Just so you know I WAS a registered independent until the second term of Clinton/Gore. They pushed me over the line to register as an Rep, Gore and now Kerry have done nothing but push me farther to the right.

NUFF SAID!!!

DC, view all these previous quotes, I've never bashed anyones' post nor their beliefs, I focused on the points not the people, yet you twice have steroetyped me and seem to have me all figured out.

You said I never laud Bush, Can you read? Below are quotes from my previous posting. Can you somehow dispute that I that I did not post the following:

1. "I'm not saying Bush is the best president ever, I just believe in the path he has taken. I do not believe he has misled the country I believe he acted in what he thougt was the best course of action"
2. "I'm employed, my company is growing, the economy survived a stock market crash and a terror attack and - we've had NO terrortist attacks on US soil ince 9/11. BUSH - 2004, I hope the next 4 years are as good as this."

I have no clue who Karl Rove is, I never watch network TV news, so stick your stereotypes up your arse.
I have NEVER insulted Kerry supporters in any of my postings. I have stated my opinion about Kerry only. I think Bush is a good president. Its so easy to sit on the sidelines and say all the things Bush did wrong. We'll never know what might have happened if things went differently.
Funny, I dont see any stupid pictures of Kerry on these postings? Looks like the Kerry supporters need childish pictures to make a point. I guess thats becasue Kerry supporters are wussy, uneducated, right wing liberals, most likely all social workers.
How do YOU like being sterotyped Jerk.

Originally posted by KLMulder
Every poll done on this issue says the vast majority of Americans do not want abortion to be legal.

Name one.

-spence

Whoa there...Settle down Jimmy...

I never stereotyped you other than saying your responses sound like the canned ones from the Bush campaign. And I'm the one being a jerk...

Your quote exactly:

"he knows nothing besides what Karl Rove and Co. has told him to think."

You never "sounds like canned responses"

What you said was wrong and now you deny saying it. Once again, Kerry is your man!

Busted :smash:

-spence

Karl Rove is Bush's campaign manager. Everything you had said sounded like the stuff he puts out. I intended no offense. I certainly didn't call you a wussy or a jerk, and still haven't.

Let us get something VERY clear here

JOHN KERRY'S CONSTITUENTS ARE THE RESIDENTS OF MASSACHUSETTS. PERIOD

why is it so hard to understand somethings sometimes. comments flying off on wild tangents. Stop blaming people and start being substantively critical.

THAT is how people learn things (IMO) and become better informed.

Not like any of this matters, you all can argue about Bush and Kerry and Nader and whoever else you damn well and blow alot of smoke, huff puff, and generally piss each other off and make asses of yourselves when all the president is, is a FIGUREHEAD, he dosen't do crap anymore.

He just looks pretty and listens to the people in the back and what they tell him to say and do.

Do you have a date for the second quote ? Was that before or after the Bush WH conned Congress into thinking that there were WMD's ?

In case you didnt know British and Russian intellegince also confirmed to Bush that Iraq had WMD...Not to mention Clinton and just about everyone thought Iraq had them....How did he con them???

The Brits interal probe found their intel was also a sham, and I've not seen the Russians come up with anything besides hot air. You're telling me Russia has proof Saddam is plotting to attack the US yet they will oppose 100% us doing anything about it?

Clinton...Are you serious? So we should go to war on intel that's years old?

The quote is from a NY Times op-ed piece Kerry wrote at the time of the vote.

-spence

He is right spence, at least thats what CNN said, a few weeks back, they had a headline that Putin warned the US that Sadaam was planning an attack but still refused to support our invasion. I tried to do a search for the link but came up empty.
Also, see below, this is why I get so confused when many of you state the Bush "mis-led" the nation. Iraq was at the top of the US agenda. I posted a link to the whole article. I'm sure you'll dismiss this as republican bs but its worth a read.

The president's warnings are firm. "If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." The stakes, he says, could not be higher. "Some day, some way, I guarantee you, he'll use the arsenal."

These are the words not of President George W. Bush in September 2002 but of President Bill Clinton on February 18, 1998. Clinton was speaking at
the Pentagon, after the Joint Chiefs and other top national security advisers had briefed him on U.S. military readiness. The televised speech followed a month-long build-up of U.S. troops and equipment in the Persian Gulf. And it won applause from leading Democrats on Capitol Hill.

Here is the whole article: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/607rkunu.asp

John Kerry is no Bill Clinton


thank god

it isn't that I adore Kerry it is how little "bad" the anti Kerry folks really have on him.

we'll see in November won't we ?

Funny how they yanked the Swift Boats ad for being a total LIE and yet the Republicans have yet to openly say that it was a lie, sounds like someone in Alexandria, Virginia dosen't want their money connected. :D

Funny how they yanked the Swift Boats ad for being a total LIE and yet the Republicans have yet to openly say that it was a lie, sounds like someone in Alexandria, Virginia dosen't want their money connected

How was the ad a lie? The vets that served with Kerry have the right to tell thier side of the story and how they view Kerry and his record in Vietnam . Just like the ones Kerry is using to aid his campaign. Its no differnet

yep Skippy, a right.

doesn't mean it is truth. sometimes non truths are lies.

but then again most people don't want to bel;ieve bad shiite unless it concerns their enemies.

Originally posted by Skip N
How was the ad a lie? The vets that served with Kerry have the right to tell thier side of the story and how they view Kerry and his record in Vietnam . Just like the ones Kerry is using to aid his campaign. Its no differnet [/B]
Do a little objective reading on the subject and you'll see that most if not all the allegations don't stand up to scuitiny. Some of the SwiftVets are saying things that directly conflict with military records.

Frankly I believe Kerry will come out from this stronger.

-spence

The "medic" that said he worked on Kerry never actually did.
His name wasn't on any of the medical documents.
Funny how that happens...

Maybe he changed his name? :rolleyes:

Another of the "vets" openly admitted to saying what someone else told him to say about Kerry, yet again, Alexandria, VA influence.

Don't forget, Kerry has his Band Of Brothers too!!!

Kerry's stories collide

Ill stick with W's band of brothers thank you!

Originally posted by Skip N
Ill stick with W's band of brothers thank you!
Big oil comapnies, big energy companies, big drug companies, neo-con chickenhawks...

oh wait, were you talking about different brothers :laughs:

-spence

Big oil comapnies, big energy companies, big drug companies, neo-con chickenhawks...

Rather be tied to that than the cronies that support kerry! :laughs:

Originally posted by Skip N
Rather be tied to that than the cronies that support kerry! :laughs:
Oh, you must mean these cronies :hihi:

General John M. Shalikashvili (United States Army, Retired)
Admiral Stansfield Turner (United States Navy, Retired)
General Johnnie E. Wilson (United States Army, Retired)
Lieutenant General Edward D. Baca (United States Army, Retired)
Lieutenant General Daniel W. Christman (United States Army, Retired)
General Wesley K. Clark (United States Army, Retired)
Admiral William J. Crowe (United States Navy, Retired)
Vice Admiral Lee F. Gunn (United States Navy, Retired)
General Joseph Hoar (United States Marine Corps, Retired)
Lieutenant General Claudia J. Kennedy (United States Army, Retired)
Lieutenant General Donald Kerrick (United States Air Force, Retired)
General Merrill “Tony” A. McPeak (United States Air Force, Retired)

Boston, MA - In an unprecedented display of support from the military establishment, twelve retired generals and admirals endorsed John Kerry for president of the United States on Wednesday. These distinguished flag officers join the ranks of tens of thousands of veterans – including over 500 veteran delegates in Boston - who want a stronger, more secure America and their fellow veteran John Kerry to be the next Commander-in-Chief.

"who want a stronger, more secure America "

- In the Senate, Kerry has voted for almost every cut in defense and Intelligence. no? I dont get this stuff

Originally posted by RIJIMMY
- In the Senate, Kerry has voted for almost every cut in defense and Intelligence. no? I dont get this stuff
Completely false claim purported by the Bush spindoctors. The truth is Kerry has voted for trillions in defense spending. Unlike many democracts Kerry is a budget hawk, and as such he is willing to vote against Defense appropriations bills that are wasteful, and there is a lot of pork in the defense industry.

The downsizing of the US military really began under the first Bush Administration in 1988. Many of the same bills the Bush Admin charges Kerry voted against were also not supported by #^&#^&#^&#^& Cheney!

For those who think Kerry would be a wimp as President, do you really think hardcore military types like the gents named above would support him if they thought that was the case?

Clinton was an appeaser for sure, but Kerry isn't Clinton and we are living in a changed world. 9/11 was a wake up call for the World, not just the Republican party.

-spence

some people don't "get it" Jimmy........
you are now an enlightened member of that group.

maybe your guys will get OBL before the election. maybe not.

That is probably the only thing that will save you

:laughs:

Spence

"For those who think Kerry would be a wimp as President, do you really think hardcore military types like the gents named above would support him if they thought that was the case?"


I look at this with the same scrutiny you view the swift boats vets. I can guarantee they're all democrats and I believe they are politically motivated.
I guess its hopeless.

Originally posted by RIJIMMY
I look at this with the same scrutiny you view the swift boats vets. I can guarantee they're all democrats and I believe they are politically motivated. I guess its hopeless
Of course it's politically motivated, but I'd bet money they are not all democrats. I happen to be a registered republican, but I'm voting for Kerry because I think he's a better choice than Bush.

There is a huge difference between the SwiftVets and the retired Generals supporting Kerry.

The SwiftVets are motivated by a 30 year old rage focused on a single person. Their claims have largely been debunked or countered sufficiently for most people. They are the GOP's Michael Moore. The SwiftVets are obcessed with the legitimacy of a Purple Heart from 1968 etc...

The Brass supporting Kerry are motivatied by a current dissatisfaction with the present Administration. Their issues are real and shared by at least half of the country. They are concerned with troops being killed in Najaf today.

-spence

They are the GOP's Michael Moore

Nice try but thats pretty far fetched :smash:

Nice try :confused: nice try :confused: :confused:

If you can't see the obvious parallel, I can't help ya :wall:

-spence

Another thing spence, check the names real close. They are all
DEMOCRATS. The one's trying to take away your rights.

Originally posted by "uffah!!"
The one's trying to take away your rights.
What in the sam hill does this mean? And how do you know they are Dems from their name?

-spence

Who would OBL vote for?

Who would OBL vote for?

Kerry for sure....Oh yea....if Kerry were president Saddam would still be in power murdering and raping iraq's.....not to mention harboring terroists....Who do you think Osama would choose? A guy who takes action and gets #^&#^&#^&#^& done or a UN loving fruicake!?:laughs:

Give us a break Skippy. If Kerry was president we would at least still be trying to get in there with (and this is the important part) THE REST OF THE GODDAM WORLD

I have to admit it bothers me when you friggin republican lovers pull this crap.

Kerry would have been far more diplomatic.

By the way Skippy. How many Iraqi's are dead ? 30,000 since the second incursion ?

who is murdering who ?

i am happy that my first desire isn't to kill like many of you folks

Oh please Buddy....we have ****** with the UN people for god knows how long....Maybe in another 10 years they might comply and stop harboring terrisits and hiding WMD's ( and yes the world belived they had them) You want to put this countrys safety in the hands of the UN then go right ahead...that scares the #^&#^&#^&#^& outta me...I didnt realize the US went into iraq to murder civialians either....I love how you liberals try to be all humantiaran and such...but i i never heard a god damn word when saddam was killing his people of when clinton bombed the #^&#^&#^&#^& out of serbia....Not one word from you guys...the hatred and willingness to call bush a murder is down right disgusting, if anything hes being more humanitarion than you fake liberals by saying enough is enough and is accually doing something about it...talk is cheapp and i like a president who gets things done. So all you lefties can go protest and smoke dope and pretend that electing kerry is gonna make things safer....Nothing could be further than the truth...you cant negotate with terrosts because they want us all dead and thats the bottom line...Drop bombs on them and **** the un if they dont like it!

lose the f-bombs, por favor

Skippy,

I see tact and diplomacy aren't something you understand.

I am not a Democrat and I am not a leftie. I am a non-partisan voter and have as much of a right to an opinion as anyone.

I didn't say BUSH murdered. Get your facts straight

and I am not your "buddy".

I could be if you had some human qualities but I don't see them.

enjoy the next few months and if your hero (our president) still has a job on Pennsylvania Avenue come January you can keep rooting for them to hurl their bombs.

:laughs:

and another thing Skip :laughs: , don't think for one second that I don't realize we should vaporize AQ, Al Sadir, etc. because they are absolutely zealots and are a BUNCH OF MURDERERS THEMSELVES that we ALL deplore.

The Republican Party is lucky that the Democrats are a bunch of crack pots themselves. It's a shame. Most of them are fruitcakes and embarrassingly inept.
But America needs to show the rest of the world that we
AS A MAJORITY have decided that the conduct of the Bush Administration, in regards to Iraq, was NOT THE WAY a nation flexes it's muscles. The UN vote was the law and the U .S. did not abide by it.

For christskaes gentlemen. The UN is in our own country and we believe we have the BEST, MOST COORDINATED, CAPABLE armed forces in the world.

Unfortunately top management is responsible for it's actions. We voted to go and everyones crying about the people who didn't agree with the way the legislation was written.

Please don't play that Serbia card. Bush inherited a well executed operation.

and I am not your "buddy".

Hey we finally agree on something:laughs:

Beachwalker,

I wish you had an opinion on the subject. :bshake:

How many Iraqi's are dead ? 30,000 since the second incursion ? who is murdering who ?

I take issue with that comment. How many people have we beheaded? How many burning bodies have we dragged through the streets? I'm not quite sure what the intent of that statement was, but it sounds like an attempt to slander the efforts of American troops in Iraq. I don't care whether you support Bush or Kerry, there is absolutely no place for the sort of ignorance and insensitivity associated with accusing the work of the troops on the ground of being anything less than honorable. I truly believe that is a line that should not be crossed. It goes far beyond whether you agree with the move on Iraq.
I have some vastly different views now than I did two years ago. Here is what I have heartburn with: We weren't prepared for post-war Iraq. Could we have been? That is a tough question to answer but I believe we could have been better prepared. The Army is stretched too thin. We were more than ready to defeat the Iraqi Army, but ill prepared for fighting the guerilla war associated with the occupation. We are learning and changing as we go, but more prior planning and foresight would have helped. The extent to which Hussein was an IMMEDIATE threat can be debated. The reasons why we were ill-prepared are irrelevant now....its just a reality we have to face. I also have heartburn with the symantics of the so called "War on Terror". Someone else here mentioned something similar. We will never win the "War on Terror". Terror is not a tangible thing.. and declaring war on it is like declaring war on rudeness. There will never be a VE day or VJ day for the vets of the "War on Terror" It will never be won, and never be officially over.

f off wee wee

no one is ACCUSSING anyone. and that is a fairly accurate figure.

Our boys are at war with an enemy who is cuthroat....

I never said anyone was dishonorable but I did question MANAGEMENT.

:rolleyes:

Beachwalker, I'm not sure I follow you. If I misinterpreted your comments, then maybe you can clarify them. I'd also like to know if that "F-#^&#^&#^&#^& comment was directed toward me.

Beachwalker,

What he's saying regarding that quote you had is it sounds like you are trying to make us look like the bad murdering thugs.

oops i thought weewee said that

f-off Drmatus

is that clarified ?

opinion on Kerry and his relationships with this question ?

to be continued.......

sorry weewee

Beachwalker, it sounds as if you've run out of steam if all you can manage is to tell me to F-off. Do you have anything intelligent to say? Care to discuss the issue or qualify your statements? I'll qualify mine: I spent a year in Iraq from April 2003 to April 2004. This is an open forum. If the moderators will allow you to tell me to F-off then go ahead if it makes you feel like a tough guy.

Thank you for your service to our country DRMatus:claps:

God bless you and our brave soldiers

Matus, I think the problem is some Kerry haters think they have a monopoly on toughness...like the Democrats are not capable of defending the country. For this I blame the Bush Administrations campaign propaganda.

Not to put words in any ones mouths but I'd wager every one here has incredible respect for our armed forces. Personally I think we don't hurt enough over the 900+ that have given their lives and the 5000 that have come back without body parts. A Marine I know just got back after a parcel of explosives went off in his face, he was lucky.

In regards to the Iraqi's killed, the issue is if our leadership even considers the massive civilian death that is associated with a war like Iraq. The incredibly brutal actions of a minority of Iraqi's doesn't represent the people, but our bombs do represent America in the eyes of many. Our military is unparalleled, but so is our responsiblity to use it wisely.

Everyone hopes Iraq works and our efforts are rewarded, but things would be very different had the attitude of our leadership been...on the level. It is what it is.

I just got back from the Rush concert and I can't hear sh*t :smash:

-spence

no frustration here just some substantive commentary with minimal school yard bickering. This thread was intatters for a few pages. It has gotten better. WHERE WERE YOU THEN ?

Drmatus you deserve the f-off from me because you used MY quotes to stand up on.

you have your opinion and I respect it. be happy it was f-off and not more.

i am sure you can contact one of the moderators and tell them of your plight.

beachwalker,

You still havent explained what you meant by your quotes:smash:

Drmatus you deserve the f-off from me because you used MY quotes to stand up on. be happy it was f-off and not more.

Hey Beachwalker, You're right I used your quotes to stand up on. This is an open forum and I've earned my right to do so just as you've been given the right to tell me to F-off. Be happy it wasn't more? You talk a big game for a hot-head behind the keyboard. I wonder what you're like when you're out there walking those beaches.

Anyone concerned about civilian deaths in Iraq, may I remind you of the American civilian deaths on 911. We're not bombing innocents over there...the amount of collateral damage is MINIMAL. I doubt it could get any less given the circumstances. And the circumstances are what we have been given.

At least it wasn't my first contribution to this thread.

Get over the hothead thing.
take a good look at your own replies

yayaya I am hearing. you have rights, and )IMO) you seem to have all the right things to say. here you connecting the 9/11 thing to Iraq again. Why don't we go into to EVERY country where the suspects are and root them out. Oh wait a mintue... that IS the WH plan.

get over yourself. we are all in the same boat.

remember to contact your local moderator if you feel violated.

next :rolleyes:

Originally posted by beachwalker
f off wee wee


Aw, cum on, you can do better than that. :hihi:

:laughs: :laughs:

i know it just doesn't have the impact.........

John we need a middle finger smilie

I'm sorry.

This machine is out of order.

F*** yourself...

...and save a quarter!

Originally posted by DRMatus
Anyone concerned about civilian deaths in Iraq, may I remind you of the American civilian deaths on 911. We're not bombing innocents over there...the amount of collateral damage is MINIMAL. I doubt it could get any less given the circumstances. And the circumstances are what we have been given. [/B]
I think we go above and beyond the call in minimizing collateral damage, but the number of civilian deaths is still huge. Afghanistan is one thing, but to equate civilian deaths in Iraq to 9/11 is somewhat absurd.

-spence

'm not advocating the invasion of any more countries. Remember, I'm one of the ones who has to do the dirty work, not just sit around and talk about it. You guys missed my point. Maybe I didn't make it properly. Either way, I'll be the first to admit the connection between 911 and Iraq is shakey. What prompted me to get involved in this thread (I'll know better next time) was beachwalker's statement about "who was murdering who". I'm done, its not worth my time. See ya

adios