I'm moving to new zealand :laughs:

don't sheep out number people there.....

:) That's a good place for a democrat!!!!

There must be allot of them there with high inflation!!!

There dollar is worth less then canadian!!!!

High taxes!!!!

And Levi dungarees are $150.00 apair!!!!!

With all that it must be a democratic country!!!!

The one good thing about New Zealand is that it is very scenic!!!!


":D FOUR MORE YEARS!!!!" :happy: :happy:

W 04:D

:smash: smoke and mirrors...... hes got you all fooled. He's screwing the enviroment... he's screwing the lowerclass.... it goes without saying that he's screwing with the constitution... He's gonna win though... his buddies down in florida with their rigged electronic voting machines will make shure of that.

I think Bush will win Florida and probably by a wider margin than most would predict. I was just in the Sunshine State and did a lot of driving between Naples and Tampa.

Not a Kerry sign, sticker or nothing to be found. Just a hunch....

and secondly... why do you guys like bush so much???? I dont get it, but then agian i'm young, (30) and an artist by trade. What is it about bush that has everyone so in love??? is it a church thing??

For sure the bible beaters don't want a gay couple to form a strong family bond and get benefits for their adopted child, or for a pregnant woman with a braindead fetus to be able to safely and legally address the issue.

That would just be wrong Eben and you know it :rolleyes:

For those more open minded types they must just be overlooking the obvious...

-Botching Iraq (the UN process, WMDs, troop strength, not equiping the troops, no peace plan) hell they pretty much screwed up everything but the bombing part.

-Painfully slow to adopt homeland security measures. How long was it that the entire dept was underfunded? What percentage of our ports are still not secure? Like 95%.

-Isolating the USA in the International community.

-Pissing off most of the world, and increasing the ability of al Qaida to recruit new members.

-No plan to address the health care crisis.

-A Medicare Drug Plan that provides little help to seniors and pads the pockets of the drug companies.

-An environmental policy that puts more mercury, carbon dioxide and sulphur dioxide into my Son's lungs so the Energy industry can make more profit.

-Refusal to aggressively adopt alternative energy measures while oil is at 45 dollars a barrel.

-Tax cuts for the richest Americans while we have to borrow on credit to fund our troops.

-Largest defecit in history.

-Hasn't vetoed a single bill, huge growth in govt spending is completely out of control.

Jesus Eben, I could go on for an hour like this. And this is off the top of my freakin head :af:

If this is what it means to be a Republican then I gladly revoke my Republican registration.

-spence

increasing the ability of al Qaida to recruit new members

How has Bush made it easier for Al Qaeda to recruit new members?

Originally posted by DRMatus
How has Bush made it easier for Al Qaeda to recruit new members?
Some will hate us regardless, I understand that. I also understand we have killed a lot of al Qaida leadership, which is a good thing.

But the manner in which we chose to remove Saddam has, in most Muslim's eys, confirmed just about every negative stereotype about the US.

Don't think about what you know, think about how our actions are reported around the world. Botching WMD, Abu Graib, abandoning the UN etc... has done great damage to our credibility and poured gasoline on the fire of hate.

Not wise leadership :wall: if we are going to kill tens of thousands in a pre-emptive war, we need to do much, much better.

-spence

In my experience, most Muslims, especially Arab Muslims agree with our ousting of Saddam Hussein. Most of them only understand force, not diplomacy. Many, if not most of them would like us to now leave Iraq, but unfortunately they are not ready to work together in building and defending the new Iraq.

The real tragedy of Abu Ghraib is it has allowed the critics of the United States to drag the name of our Armed Forces through the dirt. But for every atrocity that was committed in Abu Ghraib, there are countless examples of professionalism, compassion, and mercy displayed by our military in the streets and back alleys of Iraq and the hills of Afghanistan every day.

I think I said as much above, it's not the ousting of Saddam but rather the manner in which we did it.

Our troops are top notch, but something like Abu Graib shouldn't happen in our military. Not today...It's a complete failure of leadership and it cost us a lot of credibility.

-spence

Well I know who i'm voting for.....

Nader :laughs:

oh my god that was a painful couple of hours.....
I think I'll go read "Mine Kamph"

Wow, night 3 of the RNC convention is a serious hatefest. Victory by personal attack, you Bush supporters must be proud :barf:

absolutely no mention of the serious agendas besides 'the war on terrorism'

this whole war on terrorisim is getting old in my book... kind of like the 'war on drugs' boy we shure won that one.... right spence :hihi:

I feel like I just had a apple pie enema :scream:

and secondly... why do you guys like bush so much???? I dont get it, but then agian i'm young, (30) and an artist by trade. What is it about bush that has everyone so in love??? is it a church thing??


I totally do not fit the mold of what people think a Bush supportor would be. Im young (24) and a blue collar worker from Massachusetts and it just amazes me how so many people my age and in my field have NO clue about anything thats going on in the world...they assume that everything they read and hear on the radio or watch on TV must be true. Half the guys i work with get there political news from those guys on 94 hjy in the afternoon and they think whatever they say is fact. It really makes me sad knowing people can be easly brain washed by liberal talking points and by some blowhard spewing an opionion with NO facts to back it up. If most people educated themselves and knew some facts about issues and used some common sense i am totally convinced Bush would win by a landside in Nov. But some people just Assume republicans are for the rich folks and the Dems are for the blue collor workers like myself....what a bunch of crap! Dems like to promise people jobs better wages and such....I dont want government giving me #^&#^&#^&#^&!....show some friggen pride and educate yourself to make more money and a get a better job, Kerry aint going to get you a job people.....only YOU are going to make yourself successful in this world...you wanna sit around and wait for somoene to hand you a good job/ better wages? You are going to waiting a long time you losers! Like all those freeks protesting on NY this week...you see these people!! what a bunch of low lifes they looked liked...no wonder they all support Kerry...they want everything handed to them so they dont have to work.

Originally posted by Skip N
...they want everything handed to them so they dont have to work.
Skip, you seem like a good guy. Stick with me and I won't steer you wrong :humpty:

Kerry doesn't want to give you a job. That's a bunch of right-wing radio BS. And the protestors are largely people who are far left or don't believe in either party. Are they for Kerry? Most probably are, but I've seen plenty of low-lifes protesting abortion clinics that are all for Bush for certain.

I'm a registered Republican that's embarrased to say I used to be with the party I saw tonight. I wouldn't be supporting Kerry if I thought he wouldn't defend the country or if he was a socialist.

-spence

Kerry doesn't want to give you a job. That's a bunch of right-wing radio BS. And the protestors are largely people who are far left or don't believe in either party. Are they for Kerry? Most probably are, but I've seen plenty of low-lifes protesting abortion clinics that are all for Bush for certain.

Ill agree with you on the protesters not being the mainstream Dems. There was a poll done and i think like 40% off them defined themselves as socialists. Thats kinda creepy!:eek: And yes the abortion clinic protesters are wacked also. Im pretty tilted to the right but not that far!:D

:happy: :happy: :D :happy: :happy: :D :happy: :happy: :D

:smash:

I'd like to know how some of you republicans feel about the whole Swift Boat thing, because technically it trashes on half the armed forces.

Lets look at it this way, say you're in Nam, snag some shrapnel you barely notice (well... you notice it you bleed and it burns like hell) but it dosen't stop you from duty... You get a purple heart.

You're playing basketball on hill blahblahblah, you break your ankle, you get a purple heart.

You go running through the bush and smash your nose and bleed all over yourself, you get a purple heart.

None of those purple hearts count because the swift boat vets say that Kerry's are invalid because they were "minor injuries".

Sure their bull rhetoric may thrill the stupid, but I'd hope some people would think before beleiving their crap.

Also, first night of the RNC, ripoff of the Saturday Night Live theme, and nobody cheered. :laughs:

Zell Miller- I love this guy :)......

A question for you Dems, do any of you actually like your candidate, or do you just hate Bush?

You know, cutting off someone's head is prisoner abuse. Abu Graib shouldn't happen, I agree. It's a failure of some Colonel who failed to exercise command, not the president. I'm aggravated because they are courts martialing E-4's but not the Colonel. But really drop it, we didn't cut anybody's head off.

You talk allot about Bush making the rest of the world angry and how he went about it the wrong way. How about all those UN Security counsel resolutions that were disobeyed by Iraq. For the record, the French didn't want us taking over Iraq, that's about it. The rest of the world was over there, helping us. Yea, we took charge of the situation, we didn't waffle at all.

Perception of morality has an impact for me. To claim to be catholic, then agree that same sex couples should wed, and abortion is okay is downright hypocritical. Last democratic president we had was having sex in the oval office, remember that?

Remember that drug plan for seniors?, research who's bill that was. The economy, research that recession that Clinton started. You know those oil prices, enter reality, research gas prices in Great Britain. Also, research how many times the Clinton administration could have taken out Bin Laden, but passed. OBL might not be caught yet, but he doesn't have his own country anymore.

You know, I've been in the military for 22 years. Kerry has never supported the military, ever. He served, but never supported, always voted against bills that strengthen defense. But I should vote for him to be the commander and chief? Not a chance.

Hey Navy Chief

SK1 here, served onboard the USS Goldsborough DDG out of Hawaii for 4-years then the Sub-base for 3 more :). I wish I would have stayed in.

179

It's not as much fun as it used to be.

From one soldier to a sailor, thanks!

B Co. 1st Bn. 14th Infantry, 25th Infantry Division

Originally posted by Navy Chief
You know, cutting off someone's head is prisoner abuse. Abu Graib shouldn't happen, I agree. It's a failure of some Colonel who failed to exercise command, not the president. I'm aggravated because they are courts martialing E-4's but not the Colonel. But really drop it, we didn't cut anybody's head off.
Not the point Chief. We removed Saddam calling him a tyrant then replced his torture with some of our own in the very same prison. This isn't a tit for tat argument that their torture is worse than our torture.

The issue isn't what happened even as much but how it was dealt with. The world is looking for a little humility in our response, nothing more. Instead the pentagon blamed the individual, the investigation proved otherwise but the damage was already done.

You talk allot about Bush making the rest of the world angry and how he went about it the wrong way. How about all those UN Security counsel resolutions that were disobeyed by Iraq. For the record, the French didn't want us taking over Iraq, that's about it. The rest of the world was over there, helping us.
Why should the French want to help when our leadership is mocking them as "old Europe". When you want something from someone do you call them a name? I though most of us learned these life lessons in 3rd grade.

And by the "rest of the world" I assume you mean England where most of the people where violently against what Tony Blair was doing. To be fair I'll include Australia, even though most of that country was against what we were doing they did supply a few people.

After that the list drops down to Belieze, Uzbekistan, Lower Antigua etc... This was no coalition.

Perception of morality has an impact for me. To claim to be catholic, then agree that same sex couples should wed, and abortion is okay is downright hypocritical. Last democratic president we had was having sex in the oval office, remember that?
Pardon me, but I didn't know Clinton was running this year.

There's personal morality, and there's society. We do not live in a Catholic society. To impose one's personal religous views on people is what I would expect out of Iran, not Washington.

Remember that drug plan for seniors?, research who's bill that was. The economy, research that recession that Clinton started. You know those oil prices, enter reality, research gas prices in Great Britain. Also, research how many times the Clinton administration could have taken out Bin Laden, but passed. OBL might not be caught yet, but he doesn't have his own country anymore.
The Republicans removed all components of the Bill that would encourage competition.

I'm having a really difficult time understanding this, please help me.

How is a drug plan that stifles competition and increases government subsidies, in any way shape of form fiscally conservative?

Regarding Bin Laden. Bush was toting the same apathetic line until 9/11. I suppose it was only a wake up call for the Republicans right?

You know, I've been in the military for 22 years. Kerry has never supported the military, ever. He served, but never supported, always voted against bills that strengthen defense. But I should vote for him to be the commander and chief? Not a chance. [/B]
And to be frank Chief I really appreciate your working to keep my family safe. But the reality is your distorted perceptions of Kerry's defense record are not rooted in facts. Read this ->Bush group repeats misleading attacks on Kerry's defense record (http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=209)

The claims made by the Bush camp are lies and distortions.

I'm not arguing for the sake of it, I just want to make sure you guys are supporting Bush for the right reasons. I've looked very hard and I'm hard pressed to find many.

-spence

I love the RNC, the city's empty :)

Five surgeons are discussing who the best
patients to operate on are.

The first surgeon says, "I like to see
accountants on my operating table because when you
open them up, everything inside is numbered."

The second responds, "Yeah, but you should try
electricians! Everything inside them is color coded."

The third surgeon says, "No, I really think
librarians are the best; everything inside them is
in alphabetical order."

The fourth surgeon chimes in, "You know, I
like construction workers.Those guys always
understand when you have a few
parts left over at the end, and when the job
takes longer than you said it would."

But the fifth surgeon shut them all up when he
observed: "You're all wrong. Democrats are the
easiest to operate on. There's no guts, no heart,
no balls, no brains and no spine, and the head and
the ass are interchangeable

Oh Spence, you crack me up. Did you see my posting on Ed Koch and Pres. Bush?
There have been plenty of points outlined by the repubs at the convention. Did you hear Giulani? How many prominent Dems are supporting Bush?
Eben, I don’t love Bush, may not even like him, but as I said over and over. I am employed, I feel the country is safer, I believe the US needs an aggressive military, I don’t care if other countries don’t like us. I don’t this we need a change. That’s why I support Bush.

As far as the Arab world’s view of us, here is an interesting story. I saw an interview of an Al-jazeera reporter on PBS. She was talking about the Abu Gharab prison scandal. She said the US is unaware of some of the downstream effects of this. Arabs know that prison abuse exists all over the Middle East, but, Al-jazerra broadcast 3 hours of the congressional panel looking into the scandal. Arabs saw Rumsfeld getting hammered with questions. They saw that in the US, people in high positions are ACOUNTABLE. They have NEVER seen anything like that before. They have never seen Middle East leaders have to explain their actions. What they witnessed was a little thing called Democracy.

Question.

Why do you love Kerry so much?

Do you realy like Kerry OR are you from the Defeat Bush camp?

If you think Kerry will defend this country look at his record, it is there for the world to see so take a look, don't just take someone's word on it go look France did and they love him.

I'd like to know how some of you republicans feel about the whole Swift Boat thing, because technically it trashes on half the armed forces.


To clarify this issue, purple hearts cannot be awarded for broken ankles received in the course of a basketball game. They must be awarded for injuries that were the direct result of hostile action by the enemy.
The issue with Kerry is this. There has been some questioning of whether he qualified for some of his purple hearts. I see two issues with Kerry's purple hearts. First, he put himself in for atleast one of the purple hearts, which is okay, but when there is a policy that three of them gets you an early out, it seems like it deserves a bit of scrutiny, especially since he chose to tout his 3 purple hearts as an accomplishment.
I will also point out again that he tossed those medals (whether they were his personally is irrelevant) away like trash in an effort to make some kind of public statement.
For what its worth, there is no policy that allows you to get out of Iraq with 3 purple hearts.
Remember the real issue is what Kerry did when he returned from Vietnam, not while he was there.

Spence

I thought about replying line for line like you did. But your going to vote for John Kerry irregardless. That's the beautiful thing about our country.

I will, however, respond to the morality issue. I don't believe or endorse in legislating or imposing morality on anyone. I don't care if Kerry is a budist or a satan worshiper. My point is that his stance on the issues indicates that he is a hypocrite to his own beliefs. That, I cannot tolerate from anyone.

I was over there for 8 months. There where about 400 warships in that lake. Germany, Netherlands, British, Sweden, Norway, Japanese, Denmark, Australia and all the Gulf countries except Saudi. You know, the french navy even gave us fuel (what's up with that?). Looked like a pretty good coalition from my binoculars.

NEED WE BUSH SUPPORTERS SAY ANYMORE??

well i am happy bush let the AWB sunset!
i dont need anyone telling me what guns i can own period!

:smash: I think were headed down the wrong road....


Semper Fi

I met an elderly couple on a cruise who said it all when it comes to liberals and conservatives...

They put it this way...

"If you're in your 20's or early 30's... and you're not a liberal, they say you have no heart!"...

"If you're in your mid 30's and older and you're not a conservative, they say you have no brains!"...

How true!

:D

"If you're in your 20's or early 30's... and you're not a liberal, they say you have no heart!"...


So i have no heart then aye? Well then again that meens im smart for my age:D That meens John Kerry is still a dumb ass if we take the old folks advice! maybe they're on to something!:laughs:

I think were headed down the wrong road....

I think your wrong!:laughs: A safer america with less terroists is heading down the wrong road? Geeze.....thats scary thinking. Lets go back to the good old days and wait to be attacked again. That aint gonna happen with W in office. Take them out before they get us again....sounds like a good plan to me:D

According to John Kerry in his speach late tonight the Red Sox also pulled to within 2 1/2 games of the Yankess! Ummm no John....its still 3 1/2 games my friend:rolleyes: But because john kerry said that does that meen it must be true?! Next time John tell me the sox won the world series and maybe Ill vote for ya!:D

Not much of a choice either way in this election...

I'm much more afraid of our government dissolving our constitutional rights than I am of terrorists!

I think that the media has created new "Boogie Men" since 9/11...

And people are lining up to give away their rights in the name of "peace & safety"...

There isn't much Patriotism in the Patriot Act... socialism is more like it...

And the thought of Kerry as president gives me the willies even moreso!... He is more wooden than Al Gore is!

I am all for the defense of our Nation, but I'm not for the dissolution of our Constitution...

We need new choices...

Powell/McCain in '08 :D

I'm with you Bliz... the constitition has to be upheld.
Skip... dont forget that the more we meddle in other countries, the more terrorists we are gong to create.. President Bush even said it the other day that this war was un-winnable..he then back tracked to save his ass and say that there was no generals to surrender to us...
The facts are this my friend.. There are a couple of countries out there that really have weapons of mass destruction pointed right at us.. theres Iran who is building up nuclear technology right now.. Iraq had nothinhg.... no WMD's were found and Bush and Company fooled all of you to think that Saddam was going to attack us! First they tried to say Iraq was behind 9/11.. that didnt work, then they said Iraq supported Al Queda.. that prooved false... The fact of the matter is this .... Wolfowitz had this Iraq Invasion planned out while Clinton was still in Office..... they were just waiting for the right time to do it.. Bush has had a hard on to take out Sadam since he tried to assassanate ol Bush Sr... he even admitted it. The facts are this, The war on terrorisim is one thing and Iraq is another. Bush misled the amreican people to go there.. its prooven. The problem is that so many americans are so effected by sept 11th that they automaticly associate Iraq with Osama'a attack... Thats Bogus, and I agree with the French.. We shouldnt have attacked Iraq because we were 'scared' of them..
Me, I'd rather focus on making america strong...I'd rather focus on our economy, than to rebuild someone elses... Bush id pushing to take more jobs out of america to companies can make more $$ so the rich stockholders will make more $$ and he's forgetting about the people out there who are loosing their jobs...

here's one question for the republicans to think about that doesn't have anything to do with terrorism or Iraq....

how can you support a president that shows such blatant disregard for the oceans we all fish and the lands we all hunt, just to keep his corporate buddies happy?

another point-- if president bush is such a great leader in fighting terrorism, how come there was no mention of Osama in his convention speech?

and one last thing--does anyone know statistics for the likely-hood of being killed in a terrorist attack? this is in no way meant to disrespect the victims of these unfortunate tragedies, just something to think of....

and RIJimmy, i don't think Al Jazeera deserves any recognition. they have become the terrorist's media outlet for public executions...

Originally posted by bart
here's one question for the republicans to think about that doesn't have anything to do with terrorism or Iraq....

Bart, this is 3 questions

how can you support a president that shows such blatant disregard for the oceans we all fish and the lands we all hunt, just to keep his corporate buddies happy?

- please provide specifics instead of blah, blah. I want cold hard fact to support your claim.

another point-- if president bush is such a great leader in fighting terrorism, how come there was no mention of Osama in his convention speech?

- not sure, but I dont view Osama as the only terrorist front. I think we are doing all we can to find him, what would you like to hear? Becasue he did not mention him means he is not a great leader?

and one last thing--does anyone know statistics for the likely-hood of being killed in a terrorist attack? this is in no way meant to disrespect the victims of these unfortunate tragedies, just something to think of....

- hmmm, over 80 people in my last company died. My sister and brother in law both worked at the trade center for years, luckily not on 9/11. Why are so many people against having a liquid gas plant near them? Why do they screen me before I get on a plane?
It is the constitutional duty of the President to protect US citizens.


and RIJimmy, i don't think Al Jazeera deserves any recognition. they have become the terrorist's media outlet for public executions...
- But you Kerry suppoters keep talking about the Arab view of the US. That view is defined by Al-Jazzera, there may be some positive coming out of that outlet that you don't consider. The average Arab citizen is not happy to see innocent people killed on TV. That refelcts poorly on our enemy, not us.


- my answers embeded above
Eben, you keep talking about the "poor" worker. I listened to the labor secretary on the statistics, the current unemployment rate is less that the average rate of the 70s,80s, and 90s. So, although the Dems would lead you to beleive otherwise, its not soe bad. Bush took office after the most articfically inflated economy in history. There was no substance to back up much of the growth of the 90s. A decline is the economy and jobs is expected

how can you support a president that shows such blatant disregard for the oceans we all fish and the lands we all hunt, just to keep his corporate buddies happy?

Amen to that.

Here is my question for the group. What exactly does Iraq have to do with our safety here in the USA? I don't get it? I am more worried about that idiot in N. Korea. He actually has nukes.....but no oil?

Another question. Why is everyone so gung ho that GWB is going to protect us from the bad guys. When it was his term to serve where was he? Kerry was in 'nam and saw the attrocities(sp?) and felt it was wrong. Is that bad? He practiced his freedom of speech along millions of other people. What is wrong with that? Why do my firends have to die to liberate Iraq? I don't get it.

I don't know if Kerry is the right guy for the job. But I think that its worth a shot 'cause I don't see that GWB has done anything to fix things over the past 4 years other than spend all of the countries money on Iraq.

Please give me reasons to think otherwise. I can be persuaded if the argument is logical.

If you just like GWB because you think your taxes will be lower and you don't want to have the government funding all of these "liberal programs?" How do you think we are going to pay for this war? I'd rather spend my money on helping a poor child get a nutritious meal, a warm place to stay, and a good education. Call me crazy.

_Z_

Zacs, I dont have the energy anymore. :smash:

Zacs, that means you win :happy:

Kerry DID NOT SEE anthing in Nam, If you read his testamonie he said he was told about them by others after he came back from Nam.

My father WAS there for 2 tours, 2 full tours and he said to me the other day "we would all be better off if someone would have shot that SOB before he left"

KL

I wouldn't worry much...

I think that this ticket has already been sewn up...

There will be four more years under our current administration.

Originally posted by KLMulder
Kerry DID NOT SEE anthing in Nam, If you read his testamonie he said he was told about them by others after he came back from Nam.

My father WAS there for 2 tours, 2 full tours and he said to me the other day "we would all be better off if someone would have shot that SOB before he left"

KL
Didn't see anything? Hell he said he participated in some!

I understand why some vets are still ticked at Kerry, but it's really time to get on with it. The man volunteered twice for service, and had the passion to speak out against what he felt was wrong.

How many vets returned from Vietnam and turned to booze, drugs, suicide etc...? Kerry reacted to the times in his own way.

Hey Mulder, when you going to teach me how to fish one of my plugs? :smash:

-spence

This is what I love, you can disagree with someone and still go fishing together and have some fun. Spence anytime you want to hook up let me know, as long as the wife will let me out of the house I'll be there. If you fish half as well as you finish you plugs you will do well very well.

I have read his congressional testimony and he NEVER said that he participated, unless I missed something. If he did he should have been tried for war crimes plain and simple.

Personally I could care less what he did or did not do in Nam, I could care less what he said or did not say when he came home. I do care about what he has done in office and what he IS saying now. His voting record is there for all the world to see so take a look at it you will be surprised at what you find out about him. Also the midnight speech IMHO was petty, again IMHO. He did lie, stretch the truth what ever you want to call it when he said that the VP said he was unfit, the VP's speech is also on public record and he said no such thing.

Personally I think this campaign has been a mud fest from both sides, some is true and needed to be brought to the public's attn and some is not.

Rember that we do not live in a democracy, we live in a representative republic. That is how the founding fathers set up the government and that is how it should be.

Originally posted by KLMulder
[B]This is what I love, you can disagree with someone and still go fishing together and have some fun. Spence anytime you want to hook up let me know, as long as the wife will let me out of the house I'll be there. If you fish half as well as you finish you plugs you will do well very well.
Ha! Wait till you see me fish. You won't be able to wash the skunk off for weeks :smash:

I have read his congressional testimony and he NEVER said that he participated, unless I missed something. If he did he should have been tried for war crimes plain and simple.
In the 1971 litany he was reporting what others had told him, but in the Cavet debate with O'Niel (if I remember correctly) he admitted to using approved tactics that He later found out were aginst International Law. Of course his detractors are calling him a war criminal over this. That's the problem when you send an intellectual to battle, too much honesty ;)

His voting record is there for all the world to see so take a look at it you will be surprised at what you find out about him.
What's suprising is how much the Bush Admin has completely taken out of context and how the media is just waking up to this. The characterizations that Kerry's the most liberal member of the Senate and that He's been soft on defense spending are both simply not true. I haven't seen these many facts misrepresented since Powell was in front of the United Nations :rolleyes:

Also the midnight speech IMHO was petty, again IMHO. He did lie, stretch the truth what ever you want to call it when he said that the VP said he was unfit, the VP's speech is also on public record and he said no such thing.
While it's true Cheney never used the word "unfit", it's also true that Bush never used the word"urgent threat" to describe Iraq, but we both know what they meant ;) Read the transcript again, Cheney made it very clear that Kerry wasn't fit to be President. I won't bother posting specifics, although I would add that Cheney's line about Kerry that he "began his political career by saying he would like to see our troops deployed "only at the directive of the United Nations." Is completely true.

Kerry said it in an 1971 interview with a high school newspaper :shocked:

Personally I think this campaign has been a mud fest from both sides, some is true and needed to be brought to the public's attn and some is not.
I'd agree for the most part, although if you look at the conventions and official campaign commercials...there is clearly much more negativity from the GOP. The Dems did a little bashing but none of it was in primetime.

-spence

Iraq has oil... let me say this, do you guys who love bush so much think that we would have done what we did over there if they did not have any oil?? Something to consider... about one month after Bush took office, he pulled our country out of the international courts that prossicute war criminals, thus making our troops imune from war crimes... I read this in the paper one day before 9/11 and said..."oh boy were going to attack Iraq" shure enough we did... Also, you'll notice that before we attacked iraq there was a huge push to drill in the oil reserves that we have up in alaska...as soon as that was defeated, the Iraq war drums started beating...If you cant get your oil in one place, you gotta get it somewhere else... right?

I just want someone in office that pays attention to America and not about spreading our applepie all over the world.... remember Hernando Cortez??? The spanish conquestador who slaughtered millions of Mayans and Incans to spread christianity to south america?? I bet Bush has a picture of him over his bed and makes Laura wear one of those stupid silver helmets as he screams "death to Muslims!" well not really but you get my point...

If you live in the moment and are scared, vote for bush, but if yoru thiking about what our country will be like in 20 or 30 years, I feel a democrat is the best answer... that goes back to what Bliz said about the young and the old choosing parties... the old care more about their money that they've made than they care about the enviroment because they're gonna die in a few years anyway.... young people are more concerned that there might not be any clan drinking water, and food for everyone in 40 years.... cant you guys see this? :smash:

Originally posted by Skip N
... Lets go back to the good old days and wait to be attacked again. That aint gonna happen with W in office....

Didn't the worst terrorist attack in US history happen under W's watch :rolleyes:

Jigman

Jig, that's how the die hard Bushies think. I don't blame Bush for 9/11, but I'm :af: that the freaking GOP thinks only a Republican can defend this country.

Skip, if there was another (god forbid) attack, would you then say that Bush is a complete failure? Of course not...

Eben, I wouldn't even go as far as to say we need a democrat, we just need someone who will be held accountable and who really has the interests of the American people in their heart.

-spence

Originally posted by spence

Skip, if there was another (god forbid) attack, would you then say that Bush is a complete failure? Of course not...
-spence remember all those train derailments down south last year?? remember the huge explosion outside of LA in a Power Transformer grid station?? Those could have been attacks... small attacks, but they could have been terrorists... you never know:huh:


Spence your right.. I dont think Kerry or the dems are the ticket to Utopia.... but right now I'm rooting for kerry because I want bush and all his oil/blood s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g buddies gone.... adios bush amigo... adios... He's got everyone fooled hiding behind the crusifix and theAmerican flag... but in the end its all about profits for the rich and screw ma and pa....staying the course to me means more death and destruction along the way

where are you getting your gas at?
because i havn't noticed a price drop in my area from all that oil we are taking from iraq.

Originally posted by Eben
about one month after Bush took office, he pulled our country out of the international courts that prossicute war criminals, thus making our troops imune from war crimes...


Eben

A little history for you. Bush did not pull us out of this International Court, he flatly refused to be a party in it. Our troops have never been or ever will be subject to international courts. Why? Soldiers and Sailors have the same constitutional rights as you do. That's why we make SOFA (status of forces agreements) with countries that we base troops in. These rights cannot be given away, ever. Remember each person serving in the US military has sworn the following oath.

"to protect and defend the constitution against all enemys, foriegn or domestic."

The United States of America will never agree to this treaty, ever. It is unconstitutional.

Why do you feel it would be appropriate to remove the rights from the folks that protect yours?

http://www.disam.dsca.mil/itm/IMSO/FAQS/04-IntlCrimCrt.pdf

Iraq's oil is paying for their liberation... so in otherwords, the billions of tax dollars that went to haliburten and all the defence contractors will be repaid by Iraqi oil. This is how Bush sold us the war he said and I quote" their oil will pay for thier liberation"

Also you payed about ¢30 more a gallon for gas durring the first few months of the iraqi war... that ¢30 went right into the pockets of the oil companies...

its stuff like this that get me :af: You arent told this by the media for whatever reason... dont ask me why:smash:

You liberals are all driving me nut on here!!!:D Im sure you are all solid people but damn, so of the stuff i hear is just friggen mind boggeling!!:smash:

Hey Spence I think Im going out tonight, drop me a line if you want to hook up.

Your right wing wako fishing nut KL

:laughs:

Originally posted by Skip N
You liberals are all driving me nut on here!!!:D Im sure you are all solid people but damn, so of the stuff i hear is just friggen mind boggeling!!:smash:


what i just said was mind bogggling? its the facts skip.. perhaps you need to stop listening to Rush limbah or whoever else is pumping you up with the propaganda enema.... I sugggest you watch PBS's Frontline episode about Bush coming to power and the war in Iraq... It lays everything out on the table.. the oil, the goverment contracts, who made the $$... and its simple to understand in black and white... I never saw Micheal Moores movie.. i didnt need to, i was already informed of what is really going on so i cant compare the two, but trust me on this, America is taking Iraq's oil right now, and selling it to oil companies to pay Iraq'a liberation tab. If you dont know this, i'm totally amazed. Talk about blind faith:smash:

Spence help me out here:confused:

Originally posted by Eben
America is taking Iraq's oil right now, and selling it to oil companies to pay Iraq'a liberation tab.

Spence help me out here:confused:
Well, I think one problem is that isn't what's happening. We were told by the Bush Administration that Iraqi oil would be used to pay for the war so the American taxpayer wouldn't have to shoulder the burden. It isn't happening and it's not going to happen. Add it to the pile of Administration distortions about the war. I'll have to get on my tippy toes though, the pile is getting pretty large.

The real crime is that huge no-bid contracts are going to Halliburton who is in return screwing us with overcharges and outright fraud. The 20 Billion of taxpayer money we donated for reconstruction hasn't been spent and countless other billions are missing. Contracts are being awarded not on merrit but to friends.

I don't believe Bush invaded Iraq just for business reasons, but it's clear that the invasion is being used as a huge opportunity for the Administration to funnel money into the pockets of those they wish to enrich.

-spence

Well O.K. there you have it.. i remember listening to bush leaning over his pulpit saying that "Iraq's oil was going to pay for their liberation"... so I figured that was going to happen...

ahh halliburton.. I'm not going to start on halliburton...

In case you haven't realized. Iraq now has a goverment. They make the decisions as to how to spend their oil revenues.

There are 2 offshore oil terminals off Iraq, Mabot and Kaaot. Room for 8-10 super tankers to load oil. Before the war 1 berth was operational, now all berths are operational. That's 8-10 super tankers every 2 days. That money, is being used by Iraq to rebuild Iraq. Do you think it should go in your pocket?

"We have gone forth from our shores repeatedly over the last hundred years and we've done this as recently as the last year in Afghanistan and put wonderful young men and women at risk, many of whom have lost their lives, and we have asked for nothing except enough ground to bury them in." -Colin Powell

Originally posted by Navy Chief
That money, is being used by Iraq to rebuild Iraq. Do you think it should go in your pocket?
That's not what was sold to the American people Chief. We were told oil revenue would be used to pay for much of the war.

We were told a lot of things that were not true :smash:

-spence

Spence i love it when we are right :laughs:

Eben

Your not right. You had no clue as to what the ICC or article 98 was about.

article 98 is the war crimes thing right?

why did we pull out of it then?
this (http://web.amnesty.org/pages/icc-US_threats-eng)
is from amnesty international... expressing exactly what i was saying...

"and they think whatever they say is fact. It really makes me sad knowing people can be easly brain washed by liberal talking points and by some blowhard spewing an opionion with NO facts to back it up. If most people educated themselves and knew some facts about issues and used some common sense i am totally convinced Bush would win by a landside in Nov."

I'm sorry but I'd have to respectfully disagree with the above statement. We only hear sound bites from this administration. The RNC was very low on content and very high on ??? well they were excited. We are now more hated by many in the world than we were befor the cowboy started swaggering around with his six guns.

I'm a veteran and I too took an oath to defend the constitution. This constitution is being eaten away in big chunks lately and not in ways I like. Our rights to free speach cannot be confused by the President as unpatriotic! When in our history has the arguement been "if you disagree with me your a (socialist/communist/traitor/rabel-rouser/sinner)" we're on a sloap.

Also do those "prisoners in Cuba" deserve a trial for alleged crimes if there are allegations against them? Or are they less worhty of this because they aren't Americans? Just a thought.

I consider myslef a Christian. I am a moral conservative i.e.: pro-life, anti-rainbow coalition, etc. but I'm also progressive in my approach to how we as a nation can help each other to be the best country on earth. Firmly do I believe the statement now more than ever that: "if you tell a lie often and loud enough it becomes the truth". The mean spirited politics of the 1980's, 1990's and 2000's has proven this to me.

I just ask to think things through with your own minds. Don't believe the Conservative press or the Liberal press. Read the testimonies and watch the voting records on C-span.

Good luck making up your own minds.

GW will get my vote. While I am not happy with some of his domestic policies, and he is not the best president in history, what does Kerry offer? I have heard little if anything about what he will do for the Country. I have heards about his 4 months of service in Vietnam, but that was 30 years ago? Perhaps he served more bravely than GW, I don't really care. I don't know where he stands on any issue, other than he thinks GW is doing everything wrong. I am not impressed at all with Kerry's voting record, and the fact that he ranks as one of the most liberal democrats after Kennedy scares me.

For those of you who think that the war on terrorism is nothing more than a scare tactic put out by the right, how have the events in Russia the last two weeks made you feel? Can you link Al Quadea and people in general that hate us, or do you think they are two unrealted things?

RIPopper... god bless you. :love:

Eben

A little history for you. Our troops have never been or ever will be subject to international courts. Why? Soldiers and Sailors have the same constitutional rights as you do. These rights cannot be given away. Clinton was messed up to have signed the treaty to begin with.

The United States of America will never agree to this treaty, ever. It is unconstitutional for our service members.

Question Eben : Why do you feel it would be appropriate to remove the rights from the folks that protect yours?

http://www.disam.dsca.mil/itm/IMSO/...IntlCrimCrt.pdf

Amnesty International should be having a party because we gave "basic" human rights to the people of Iraq. Next thing you'll throw at me is something by the ACLU.

Originally posted by Navy Chief

Question Eben : Why do you feel it would be appropriate to remove the rights from the folks that protect yours?

I'm not saying that their rights should be taken away, but I think that they should be held acountable for their actions in a way that grants the person or people that have been violated equally... we have people down in cuba that may or may not be guilty of terrorisim, but they are being held in dog cages and are being treated like garbage..We have had a few people in Abu gharib prison treat their captives like they were chunks of meat, totally disreguarding any sorts of rights that the iqaqi detainees were entitled to. Will those people be punnished?? yes by our courts, but rest assured they will be given a slap on the wrist at best.
Our country seems to have the attitude that our beliefs are better than everyone else, our god is better than the muslim's Alah, and that our way is the only way. I think thats wrong. I think that the world would be more harmonious if we didnt play the role of the global bully. Leave that to the UN, that is why it was created...if you think about it, the UN is a democratic voting system, while we make global desicions like Bush is the king of the world.. Thats kind of Hypocritical dont you think?? Here we are saying we're spreading democracy to the land of tyrany and then we thumb our nose at the democratic process created to avoid pointless wars.
And we wonder why every other country in our world hates us?:smash:

i answered your question navychief, now please answer mine... do you think that we would have liberated Iraq if they did not have any oil?

Yes

They were a threat to our national security.
They were a threat to the region.
They were a threat to the economy.
They blew off UN sanctions for more than 10 year.
They did not assist inspectors.
We went to Bosnia, no oil there.

In the post 9-11 world, hard decisions have to be made. We cannot let that happen again.

"Leadership means pissing people #^&#^&#^&#^&

The UN is a democratic body, but they have no way to enforce their sanctions. So we do it. Then you say that we acted independently.

Our rights (as US citizens) are more than anyone else's and you can't take them away. We are held accountable for our actions by our own goverment and you, the citizen.

Be mad, vote for Kerry. It's your right and freedom. Merry Christmas and have fun paying higher taxes.

I agree with you Navy Chief.. our personal rights as US Citizens are higher than the average mid-eastern citizen. that can not be contested and I'm not saying that a soldier should give up those rights. So in a way I also agree that what your saying makes sense that if a person in uniform did do something wrong, and was taken to a international court, the person would in theory be treated the same way as someone in another country.. I'm just saying that that sets the precident for warcrimes to go un-accounted for.

I will vote for Kerry.. not beause i love him or because i think hes the best choice now, but because I think bush is the greater of 2 evils.

So merry christmas to you, and vote for bush... enjoy our "new world order" that the neo-conservatives have created for you... and i hope were still here in 10 years. Bush really isnt the scary guy... its the guys who are telling him what to say that i'm scared of.

Associated Press--"We showed weakness,says Putin" Vows security reforms in 'all-out war' on terror. Putin-"we showed weakness,and weak people are beaten."

Remember how North Korea shut up after Iraq?The only thing tyrants,bullies and terrorists respect is strength.
I have to ask myself,who would they vote for?


Imho the key issue is national security.It really comes before any of the other issues,because without it ,they all fall along the wayside.

thats a very good point, but if you dont pay attention to domestic issues, the country will crumble. it already is crmbling with all of the manufacturing jobs bush has allowed to go over seas. Theres got to be a balance and in my opinion, bush is ignoring some very important things here at home... he probably doesnt care though because the stock holders of the companies that are exporting the jobs to china are making more $$ and he said it himself.. "the rich is his base" and they are the ones who are all voting for him..

Eben,i understand your points,an agriclutural and manufacturing economy is the best economy. Unfortunately we are loosing both.
However,since 9/11,as well as before, we are at war with groups that want to destroy us as you well know.Without a show of force our end would come quickly.
When it comes to security ya gotta say what you mean and mean what you say.

Is that why one of the republican national conventions main themes was "Compassion" ?

maybe we should just nuke all of them and get on with our lives :smash:

by the way where is osama? you never hear bush talking about finding osama... go figure.

Originally posted by Navy Chief
Yes

They were a threat to our national security.
They were a threat to the region.
They were a threat to the economy.
They blew off UN sanctions for more than 10 year.
They did not assist inspectors.
We went to Bosnia, no oil there.

In the post 9-11 world, hard decisions have to be made. We cannot let that happen again.

"Leadership means pissing people #^&#^&#^&#^&

The UN is a democratic body, but they have no way to enforce their sanctions. So we do it. Then you say that we acted independently.

Our rights (as US citizens) are more than anyone else's and you can't take them away. We are held accountable for our actions by our own goverment and you, the citizen.

Be mad, vote for Kerry. It's your right and freedom. Merry Christmas and have fun paying higher taxes.

Hi Chief, Thanks for your service. Can I ask you why you believe you would pay more taxes under kerry than bush? The taxes for the middle and lower income people has risen since bush was in office and only the upper 2 percent of income people have gotten tax breaks. The middle and lower income have lost services though. So If Eben and is making over $250,000.00 a year, he will get a break with bush but actually if Kerry is given the opportunity to right some of the decisions of the past 4 years, he may actually pay less. I'm sorry but I don't think the lies and blanket statements that the conservatives have been saying for so long can keep going without being contested on their merit. If it's true that democrats spend more on welfare to the poor than the republicans pay to welfare for the corperate rich; please show me the numbers. Thanks.

I'm not looking to "nuke" anybody,however when our enemyies have the weapons they won't hesitate for a moment.Don't kid yourslef,they want our lifestyle of freedom wiped off the face of the earth.
What i want is my 3 Grandaughters to grow up with the freedoms and security my generation had. I am sure you want the same for your new son. Our generation hadto fight for it and if it is to continue so will all future generations.
Freedom is not free.

Kerry said that he was going to raise taxes.

Welfare ???? Get a job.

Navy Chief, Thank you for being there for us. Your sacrafices are truly appreciated.:)

for who was he going to raise taxes? probably those getting the free rides now I hope.

Have I mentioned the fact that I'm a really far far far right wing, war mongering Reagan republican ??? or did you guys figure that out?

Navy Chief,could you comment on our military preparedness before year 2000?

good point! :laughs: we're much more ready now thats for shure

Originally posted by Navy Chief
Kerry said that he was going to raise taxes.
On those making 200 grand a year.

Does it make sense to give huge tax cuts to the very rich while we have to borrow to pay for body armor for the troops?

It's bad enough our military is way overextended, but we shouldn't have to deepen the defecit just to give them basic equipment.

-spence

Originally posted by justplugit
I'm not looking to "nuke" anybody,however when our enemyies have the weapons they won't hesitate for a moment.Don't kid yourslef,they want our lifestyle of freedom wiped off the face of the earth.
What i want is my 3 Grandaughters to grow up with the freedoms and security my generation had. I am sure you want the same for your new son. Our generation hadto fight for it and if it is to continue so will all future generations.
Freedom is not free.

Eben,didn't want you to miss this so you know where i'm coming from.:) I'm probably the only guy who ever qouted his own quote:laughs:

Originally posted by justplugit
Navy Chief,could you comment on our military preparedness before year 2000?

Lets see....There where a couple years that I wasn't sure I was going to get a paycheck at the end of the month.

We decommissioned more ships than we built.

Promotions were the lowest they had been in history.

Sometimes we didn't have money for fuel. Therefore our readiness was down because of lack of training. Sometimes we didn't have money for regular upkeep and maintainance.

Now, the ships that where commissioned are far more capable than the old ones. Most of those were funded during the George Sr administration. Being in the Navy during the Clinton administration was really aggravating.

As far as the military being overextended. I'm not really sure about that. The downsizing that's been going on under Clinton and also George Sr always had the Reserves and Guard units as an intergal part of the military. These units have been called up now and it's become a big issue. The active guys have been overworked. The last 3 years on my last ship we were underway over 700 days and did an 8 month deployment, preceeded by a 3 week inport period. But I, for one, understood the situation and dealt with it. #1 priority Mission Accomplishment, #2 priority, the troops. I think most of the troopers sucked it up also and were proud to serve in a time of crisis.

Originally posted by justplugit
Eben,didn't want you to miss this so you know where i'm coming from.:) I'm probably the only guy who ever qouted his own quote:laughs:

I hear you loud and clear, but my agruement is that its not our lifestyle they hate its the fact that we meddle with thier lifestyle.... Osama's manefesto or delcaration of war that he posted after 9/11 said 2 main things.. we convince Israel give palestine their land back and we pull out of the holy lands of Saudi Arabia and there will be no more attacks...
I dont expect us to give in to the demands of terrorists, but hey, the writing is on the wall here.. there is 'Compassion' and there is comprimise.

Eben

Your wrong on that one. It is our lifestyle that they hate. They try to emulate it, but can't because their goverments won't allow it. Therefore they get mad about it.

Iran wants to be a democracy, they want what we have. They can't have it because of the islamic ruling counsel. The rest of the Gulf countries all run into the same issues, only to generally lesser extents.

Go over there, see for yourself. You will agree with me.

Originally posted by Navy Chief


Go over there, see for yourself. You will agree with me.

perhaps i will when the draft is up and running in a few years:smash:

Volunteer Shipmate !!!!!!

Be a man, the chicks love it.

Don't let other people protect your rights for you, protect them yourself. See the world, meet interesting people and kill them. It's the American way. Be a part of the solution, not the problem.

You bust on W. because he didn't serve when he had the chance, you have the chance, so serve.

Good medical (for you and the family). 30 days paid vacation a year. 20 year retirement. Education benefits. Travel. Fishing off the fantail.

I spent 3 years as a recruiter, can you tell?

I also wanted to mention that the Army and the Air Force has been having deployment problems forever. The Navy tells them to go to 6 month tours, but they don't listen. The Navy and the Corps been doing it effectively for decades.

Sorry Cheif... i've never had any problems with the ladies and i have a great carreer. Maybe all those people who have lost thier manufacturing jobs to China want something to fight for...

oh....thou shalt not kill. thats a very important rule.

I figure you would say that.

:rotfl: touche'

Speaking of Generals....Anybody following Gen William Boykin? He is a real life satire. Ol Bill is a pentagon general who is going around to churches saying that our battle in the middle East is " A Christian Army against Satan." Rumsfeld continues to praise him even though Bush quietly claims the war to be non sectarian. It's kind of like the Swift boat guys, Say one thing and do another. The my god is bigger than his God bit is something Boykin said in Somalia in 1993.
heres the story (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0820-02.htm)

I'm enjoying the back and forth with respect.We could teach Washington a thing or two.

Chief one of the prombems with the Theocracies in most of the middle east is the muslims who we call radicals are what the Koran would call true believers. Because the roots of Islam would have all infadels killed for disagreeing with them. So we can only hope that the marginal believers become rule, unlike the Saudi Arabians who are at the very hub of islam. I find it strange that some of our leaders are in bed with the heart and soul of Islam where many of the so called "radicals" come from. Wouldn't we be well off to try and force democracy there as well? or would that be biting the hand that feeds certain American oil interests?
I don't want to sound discouraged but I think that we will see Armageddon befor we see a victory in the war against terrorism. I'm not saying not to meet out justice where it is deserved though. I'm just not to optimistic in the outcome.

by the way, I'm Armand T and I approve of this Message! LOL:laughs: :laughs: :laughs:

Originally posted by Eben
Speaking of Generals....Anybody following Gen William Boykin? He is a real life satire. Ol Bill is a pentagon general who is going around to churches saying that our battle in the middle East is " A Christian Army against Satan." Rumsfeld continues to praise him even though Bush quietly claims the war to be non sectarian. It's kind of like the Swift boat guys, Say one thing and do another. The my god is bigger than his God bit is something Boykin said in Somalia in 1993.
heres the story (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0820-02.htm)

Eben I just have to correct one thing you put my god..his God, it should be my God...his god. thanks :)

Originally posted by RI Popper
I find it strange that some of our leaders are in bed with the heart and soul of Islam where many of the so called "radicals" come from.
This is one of the fundamental problems. Until the Saudis reform the official Government position on Wahhabisim we're all screwed. Seem to remember the Bush family being pretty close wink, wink, nudge, nudge...

-spence

Here is an editorial piece that is put out as a news peice, but I like it anyway:
http://www.commondreams.org/news2004/0903-04.htm

I saw it and understood it right away while watching the convention. I also know that many (likely the vast majority) don't know and understand it. Shameful to tell half truths, it's paramount to half lies isn't it???

well shoot... a typo. I dont mean to disrespect God in anyway, but i thought it interesting to point out the different levels of this 'war on terrorism'.. It brings me back to Bush standing on the smouldering ruins of the World TradeCenter calling for a 'Crusade'.

Eben, Think of all the cool sand you could get over there for your glass blowing.

That General is allowed to do that, as long as he is not in uniform. I am allowed to go to war protest or political conventions, but I am not allowed to wear my uniform or make official statements. Then again, I don't make official statements anyways. If I know this, why doesn't the General.

RI Popper I agree with you. Theocracies will not dissolve in the middle east (would give up a crown?) They will slowly go away. UAE is on the verge of democracy, as is Iran and Qatar. Oman and Saudi will be the last.

I don't think that Islam is our enemy. Most folks in the mid east believe that Osama and Hussien are freaks.

Well just hope that the USA doesn't end up standing for the "Un-united States of America". because with all the name calling on television and in the halls of Washington. we are looking like those we laugh at in asia for having fist fights in their parliments.

This is what's important, our children and their future. Different people believe there are different ways to achieve safety for them, but so long as one school of thought doesn't so arrogantly believe they are the only right way and act unilaterally, we'll be alright.

Originally posted by RI Popper


This is what's important, our children and their future. Different people believe there are different ways to achieve safety for them, but so long as one school of thought doesn't so arrogantly believe they are the only right way and act unilaterally, we'll be alright. [/B]
You hit the nail on the head,and i believe after all is said and done, the American people will rise above the frey, and do the right thing to protect our children and their future. The age old problems can all be traced back to selfcenterdness.

Originally posted by Navy Chief
Eben, Think of all the cool sand you could get over there for your glass blowing.

there ya go... before all the crap with the USSR and afganistan, there was a villiage that had a glassblower who blew glass using a ak47 gun barrell to blow the glass, and horse dung to fire his furnace made of mud and clay the villiage people would gather quartz pebbles from the river, sand from the beaches of the river and burn plants to make a form of ash... I dont know what happened to him, but if you go to the Corning Museum of glass there is a great video of him doing his thing..
sand is only a part of the puzzle to make the glass i use today in my furnace..
i also use soda ash and limestone to bring the melting temps down to a managable temp.. if I just melted sand i would be making fused quartz which melts some where around 4000° (i think) my glass melts at 2300° and has a working temp of 2000°

:hs: