because conspiracy theories have become annoying, but I would be interested to hear comment on it. I got this as an email forward from a guy I served in the Army with....

http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon121.swf

This recently popped up on another forum, someone I know that works in DC was right there infront of the Pentagon when it happened and SAW the damn plane with his own eyes.

He happened to have caught it on its final approach to the Pentagon so he had a (relatively) good long look at it.

What a creepy video, I notice they didn't explain what happened to the people who were on the flight :eek5:

-spence

That is interesting. But , I never saw any plan wrekage at the WTC either. This plane was going full speed into a building, I think it would have disintegrated, but what do I know.
Someone did a cool job putting that together. Where do they get the time?

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

here's the pictures the person i spoke of took:

http://criticalthrash.com/terror/crashthumbnails.html

Ever put a pop can in a fire? Where's the can? it must have never been there. Truth is aluminum burns. As for the people on the plane, well we turn to dust to when burned. There are still people unaccounted for from the WTC in NY, and I do not recall seeing anything left that resembled a plane from there.

I'm not surprised at all. I dont like conspiracy stories either, but I'll share something I've known about since sept 11th. Iwont name any names, but a good friend of mine has a father who is a retired Admiral in the Navy. His dad has been retired a while and hadnt heard squat from the navy in about a year and on sept 9th he got a call from Someone high up on the ladder and said "admiral X, something big is going to happen on the 11th and we need you at NORAD asap, please tell only your family and remember, this is a training exercise" So keep in Mind admiral X has never been to NORAD before and is totally baffled as to why they would want him there.

i'm sorry i sound like such a freak about how much i distrust bush, but when i heard this story from my friend that night I can tell you that I smelt a skunk.
yes I was saddened and scared for the people that died but i was horrified that the government knew this was going to happen... This got me really thinking about why the government wouls let this happen and i stumbled upon the plans that some of the 'neo-conservates' had for a new world order'.. The fact of the matter is that many fo the high rankng republicans have huge stakes in corperations who's main business is war, either weapons contracts or rebuilding... so wouldnt it make sense that these people would want a war?? they've packaaged this war so perfectly to keep the americans scared and blind it is pathetic. Do you think the republicans want peace?? why would they? then the american people would focus on domestic issues and everyone knows repubicans always loose when it comes to domistic issues....

anyway, i'm not surprised at all... all of you can say this is bogus, and us liberals aare whacked, but the truth is out there... people can hide behind thier american flags adn bomb the crap out of muslims like true cowards, but remember.... if there was peace in this world Bush and company would be in big trouble....

good day:mad:

i think i need to sleep.. i'm sounding crazy, but that story i tell of the admiral is 100% true.

the wreckage of the planes at the WTC was substancial BTW... engines, wheels, seats... all over the roads underneath the towers

Yes the fact's say that we did know something might happen on the 11th, what no one knew. We also had intel about the WTC being bombed under Clinton, and do you remember when we sent a missile into the Chinese embassy under Clintons watch? Intel said it was an embassy but they hit it anyway. Maybe that was part of the deal in witch Clinton gave our missile teck to China? You talk about the NWO allot but I would like to here about the Lib's moving us closer and closer to a socialist country. Don't worry the government will take care of all your need's. We will make your choices for you don't worry about anything.

Originally posted by KLMulder
You talk about the NWO allot but I would like to here about the Lib's moving us closer and closer to a socialist country. Don't worry the government will take care of all your need's. We will make your choices for you don't worry about anything.

well... in 30 years when theres no social security, no medicare and the country is broke becuse of the tax cuts that are going on today, remember that most people are acting on the "what feels good today, is more important than what happens tomorrow" approach.

Right now the government is spending $$$ like a college freshman with daddies credit card. whos going to pay for the national debt???

Originally posted by KLMulder
You talk about the NWO allot but I would like to here about the Lib's moving us closer and closer to a socialist country. Don't worry the government will take care of all your need's. We will make your choices for you don't worry about anything.
KL, you need to draw a line between mainstream democrats and the real liberals. Most democrats don't want government telling you and me what to do.

Capitolisim is great at generating wealth, but not at distributing it because people are generally pretty greedy. Take a look at the massive bonuses and raises most corporate executives gave themselves while they were firing millions of regular workers the past few years...it's all the proof you need.

To counter this we already have a progressive tax system, which is wealth redistribution. If we didn't, government programs to subsidise the middle class wouldn't exist.

It's already shrinking as more wealth is consolidated in the hands of the very rich. You don't have to be a socialist to understand the good that some government interaction can make.

-spence

I also want to point out that kerry is not planning on raising the taxes on people who make under 200grand like alot of republicans are saying...

I am amazed at how many people keep saying to me "vote for Kerry, he's going to raise your income taxes!"..... i wish I made 2oo large a year... i'd happily pay taxes on it :(

Personally as far as tax's go If I were king I would do away with income tax, IMHO a flat sales tax on everything would be a much better system. Do away with the IRS as we know it, all they would have to do is make sure sales tax is paid, they already do that so it should be no big deal there. Social Security, stuff it let me out, If some one wants it let them pay into it if they want but I want out. I should be allowed to be responsible for myself. What ever happened to that concept? I'm fat so I file a suit against McD's. NO NO NO It's just not right.

P.S. Let me know if you wan't to hook up again Spence, Hopefully the condition's will be better next time.

KL

sorry to hi-jack (excuse the pun - it is not intended) this thread.

Spence, am I to understand you are for wealth or income redistribtion. If that is true, than I would have to think you are left wing liberal, not a moderate.

Welth or income redistribution is the cornerstone of solcialistic, (communistic) government.

Take money out of my pocket, because I spent my money getting educated and my time working hard, to give it to someone who decided they better buckle down a little too late in the game...no thanks.

I am with Mulder - I would opt out of Social Security if it were an option.

And if there needs to be an income tax, how about a flat 10% across the board.

-IWK

I was getting ready to jack you guys up.

But I think I'll take the high road and stay out of this.

Take a swing Chief :chatter

Regarding wealth redistribution. The point is that it's not some socialist idea, in fact it's what we do today, and if we didn't our government wouldn't have enough money to pay for important things like gas for the Navy Chief's ship.

I'd love to opt out of Social Security as well, but if we all did the system would go bankrupt in a heartbeat.

-spence

Okay Spence.

First:

You guys are saying that 9/11 was some kind of conspiracy. Come on, so the entire goverment, Republicans and Democrats all are backing this conspiracy. Nothing came out about that during the congressional investigations. So right that off as a bogus thought / theory.

Second:

Wealth Redistribution ????? That was tried for 40 something years by the country formally known as the USSR. It's working well in China, don't you think. Winston Churchill said "democracy is the best form of goverment that hasn't failed yet."

You know, somethings in our country really aggravate me. Salaries for pro athletes. Explain to me, why someone that is 3rd string offensive lineman for a pro football team makes more money than a High School teacher. Which is more important to our society? HMO's should be blown up completely. All lawyers deserve to die a painfull death.

We all know that some guys have way to much money. Bill Gates could, by himself, reform Social Security. But if I was Bill Gates, I would tell you to shut up and invent something so life changing that folks can't live without it.

Should we change this system of ours. Hell no. It's the American way. Think about how many men and women died just so you can complain about stuff like this. In Iraq, under Saddam Hussien, you would be man-raped, beaten, shot, beaten somemore, then thrown in a mass grave for the things you have been saying about the goverment.

We are a blessed country. Life overseas is not nearly so free.

Okay, I'm done.

Chief, I think only Eben believes the potential for a 9/11 conspiracy, the rest of us are a bit more level headed. Don't blame it on Eben though, I've been to his house :smash:

Regarding wealth redistribution. Read everything I'm saying again, it's not that radical. It's silly to demonize an idea that keeps our country running.

And we completely agree on the salaries of pro athletes.

-spence

(this is eben after a nap)

Hey all i'm saying is that Someone knew something was going to happen. They knew it was planes and they knew it was going ot happen on the 11th.
I also believe that Bush, Cheney and many of his policy makers have alot to gain when we're at war... we buy more bombs, oil prices go up... thats obvious. Do i think that they knew who was going to fly those planes into the towers or where they lived... maybe...:huh: we'll never know.
you cant argue that the Iraqi war was thought up long before bush came to office... 9/11 was just the perfect excuse to implement it.

I agree that our tax system needs to be revamped.
So does George W.

:happy:

Eben

I don't know if this has anything to do with your friends father the Admiral or not, but around that time the military was conducting a nationwide "Battle experiment". The military has been working for a long time with joint operations. The exercise had to do with that and included all services. Very extensive stuff.
When military guys retire, we are not done. We get placed on "Fleet Reserve" and can get recalled at anytime. It's the price that we pay for our retirement check. It could be, that this Admiral had a particular expertise that was need for this exercise. When the attacks occured on 9/11 this exercise was cancelled. Just for your info, the military has been running terrorist attack drills for a long time and the attack on the USS Cole changed instantly the way your Navy does business.

Chief that is totally possible. I was going to call him tonight and ask about that day and what his father told him, but then I got to thinking and I decided not to. I have a tendancy to really get worked up about things when I feel that they arent going the way i feel they should... Perhaps I'm a control freak, I dunno..:huh:

anyway, I'm going to hang my guns up for a while.. stop watching c-span, stop watching the news (or at least cut way back) and pay more attention to my little kiddo... he's so cute and cuddly it kills me and while I can worry my life away thinking about everything that is wrong in this world, I can also focus on my little boy. Who knows, if I bring him up right, he might just be the person who makes this world a better place and not the one who puts greed before common sence....

Required Reading - The 911 Commision's Report. Not the Cliff notes in Newsweek - R.T.F.B.

This conspiracy theory, while entertaining if it had been based on fictional events, is a load of crap. Too many GOOD people at the service branches, FBI, DOD, NSA, et al. People that would in no way stand for sitting on something like this.

I'm not a W fan at all and I'm waiting for the debates to make up my mind (anyone want a write in campaing for McCain??). I can't see how someone could seriously propose and PM a project like sending a missle thru the walls at the Pentagon. Toooo many people to be involved to make it happen.

Hey Navy Chief - what are those two short stout & boxy high bridged boats across from the carriers??

Johnr

That's one really big ship. It's a Military Sealift fast support ship. It carries Army/Marine Tanks and Airplanes and stuff. Run by a civilian crew of merchants.

The black hulled ships are Coast Guard buoy tenders.


Eben

Kids are cool, wait until he gets mobile. They're faster than Bluefish.

I'm sure those chaps at that underground site are nice guys and all, but they don't know jack about aviation.

Most of the wreckage pix they have there are of planes that crashed while landing. They hit wings level, just a tad short of where they were supposed to land. Two shots I recognize are Delta 191 from 1985 at DFW (large shot of the burned out cabin) and a British Midlands 737 (burned outline of plane on the ground). A few passengers actually walked away from those crashes.

When a largeplane traveling 400+ mph hits an unmoveable object, the only wreckage you're going to be able to recognize as part of an airplane are the engines and parts of the landing gear. The wings don't "shear #^&#^&#^&#^& on impact, they disintegrate. Most of the fuselage and passengers disintegrated as the plane passed thru the several interconnected "rings" of the Pentagon. There are 5 or 6 "rings" of that building, and I think I read somewhere that the damage extended all the way thru to the E ring. A fully fueled 757 weighs over 200,000 lbs, even with a light passenger load. A 12 seater commuter plane weighs, at best, 1/10th of that. The only way a small commuter plane will ever see 400 mph is in a vertical dive, never in level flight. The power of an impact is a function of both the mass and velocity of the projectile. A small commuter plane wouldn't penetrate all that far into the Pentagon--the mass and velocity just aren't there.

Chief - the big one is one of those Roll On / Roll Offs, right?

Thought the 2 ships next to the Ro/Ro were white hulled. Tough to look when going over the bridge :wall:

there's some boats there that look like they are for training that have blacked out bridges.. they look real funny but i've seen them cruising around the bay. I guess it might be for NAV instument training...(no windows on the bridge) Kind of like flying blind

JohnR
Yea, it's a RO-RO

Eben
I don't know what's up with those windows, I guess it's for radar nav / low visibility training.

Originally posted by Eben
I guess it might be for NAV instument training...(no windows on the bridge) Kind of like flying blind
Sounds like perfect metaphor for the entire Bush foreign policy :af:

-spence

Here here cheif. I speak specifically about the freedoms we here enjoy. And I want to thank you and every other serviceperson that reads this thread. There is a great bumper-sticker out there, and someone here uses it as their signature.

If you can read this thank a teacher
If it is in english thank a soldier

Well, I personallly would like to thank every soldier for providing the freedoms that I so enjoy.

To address wealth redistribution - it has nothing to do with running the Government. I would happily pay 10% of my salary toward defense and running this country. I am pissed that I have to pay towards welfare and social programs. I do not care if an ART student can't find a job, I do not want my hard earned money going to a grant so he can study the color yellow.

Thanks again to any and all active and inactive US military personel.

-IWK

Originally posted by Iwannakeeper
To address wealth redistribution - it has nothing to do with running the Government. I would happily pay 10% of my salary toward defense and running this country. I am pissed that I have to pay towards welfare and social programs. I do not care if an ART student can't find a job, I do not want my hard earned money going to a grant so he can study the color yellow.
Inotgonnagetakeeper,

If everyone paid 10% we still wouldn't have enough money to fund the critical government functions like defense.

And if the size of the US Government is a problem for you, how can you support Bush who has not used his VETO on a single bill that has crossed his desk. The budgetary increases in social spending under Bush are massive. Bush is doing nothing to curtail spending and now our children are going to be footing the bill for a mountain of debt we may never dig out from.

And regarding those like MYSELF who studied YELLOW at an ART SCHOOL using Federally subsidized loans. Education isn't only for the rich, and if it wasn't for federal aid only the rich would be going to college.

Today I pay as much in Federal taxes as I made when I graduated in 1994. My country helped me then, and now I'm returning the favor.

-spence

Originally posted by Iwannakeeper


To address wealth redistribution - it has nothing to do with running the Government. I would happily pay 10% of my salary toward defense and running this country. I am pissed that I have to pay towards welfare and social programs. I do not care if an ART student can't find a job, I do not want my hard earned money going to a grant so he can study the color yellow.


-IWK

I agree with you 100%. I have nothing against artist's, if fact I admire Eben's work. You do some great stuff with glass and this is in no way directed at you. There are allot of things I would love to do for a job but they can't pay the bills. I should not be someone else's responsibility to support me so I can do what I want to. I have been self employed most of my life ( up 1 1/2 years ago ) and busted my hump to get by. I was in the lowest tax bracket and guess what, I paid NO Taxes. that's right NO TAX. Why? Because the government said I did not make enough to pay, if fact they gave me more back than I paid in. THIS IS JUST PLAIN WRONG!!! Then you get to listen to the Dem's cry about the tax cuts and bring out there tired old war horse class war fare to try to scare people into believing the Rep's are screwing them and only giving tax cuts to the rich. It's a cart full of BS, every bracket had a rate reduction with the exception of the lowest which do pay any. How could you give me a tax cut if i already paid nothing??? I am not rich but I do understand that the richest 1% ( Dem catch fraise ) pay the majority of the tax that is collected. Keep going Dems, keep bashing them and see where your BS social programs go when they all get pissed and move out of country and pay there tax to someone else.

I need a break from all of this. I'm starting to get aggravated, i enjoy talking to all of you and don't want to take this to a personal level.

KL

Spence,

1. no need to make personal attacks. I am not name calling. and I did not mean my comments regarding art to be taken offensively. I address in more detail in item 4 below. I like what I have seen of Eben's work as well. And I encourage and would buy some of Eben's work. But if Eben is getting my tax dollars to subsidise his art, then I am unhappy. I want to make the decision if I buy his work. Let the free market dictate the value of his work, not the government subsidies.

2. I do not like Bush's spending policies and have never indicated that I have. But in this day with the threat of terrorism even Left wing Liberals like Ed Koch are backing Bush. So regardless of what I think of his spending, I want a war-time Commander-in-chief, not a UN Cow-Towing Liberal.

3. 10% was an off the cuff remake. You are correct, the studies have shown a flat 15% with no deductions and loopholes would adaquately subsidise the current government.

4. I do not begrudge anyone's education. Anyone and everyone is eligible to take out LOANS, allow me to repeat that LOANS. Some people qualify for GRANTS to get an education. I am speaking of people who get grant money and it is used as a salary while then work on their Yellow project. No one should be getting a free ride. which is why I disagree with Publicly funded grants. there are enough privately funded grants. We do not need to use tax dollars from hard working Americans to hand-over to the un-initiated. When I went to college, it took 2 loans on top of the "PRIVATE" scholarships I received. and it took a long friggin time to pay off the loans. but I, with the assistance of my family secured the loans and payed them off. no public money was used in the funding of my schooling. Yet I pay an absurd amount in taxes every year.

5. Also in regards to the Governments size and spending, are you trying to imply that Kerry is going to down-size the government? That somehow my paycheck is going to be fatter if Kerry were in office? I am not sure how you could come to that point given no one even know what kerry will do other than waffle.

You can rebut or whatever - but I have had enough. I do not come here to debate politics. I am going to read about fishing....then I am going fishing. I am not posting to this thread further.


Again - this is suppose to be a discussion not a personal attack. If my previous comments are offensive, they are being mis-interpretted. I do not mean them as personal attack, merely an example of where I feel the government spending is erroneous.

Originally posted by KLMulder
I was in the lowest tax bracket and guess what, I paid NO Taxes. that's right NO TAX. Why? Because the government said I did not make enough to pay, if fact they gave me more back than I paid in. THIS IS JUST PLAIN WRONG!!!
I assume you gave it back then?

Then you get to listen to the Dem's cry about the tax cuts and bring out there tired old war horse class war fare to try to scare people into believing the Rep's are screwing them and only giving tax cuts to the rich.
KL, the vast majority of tax revenue reduction is returned to the top few percent of wage earners. The benefit seen by the middle class is relatively minor, while the overall cost of living has gone up tremendously.

In general I have no problem with the rich getting more back as they do pay the brunt of the tax burden. But the problem is that the current economic environment doesn't support continued tax cuts for the rich.

Our beloved country can't support the current budget, Bush's fiscal policy is creating a massive debt load that isn't sustainable. When the baby boomers start to retire en masse in 4 years it's going to be like an atom bomb was dropped on our economy. Bush is ignoring the situation entirely.

The idea that tax cuts are always good because they stimulate the economy is the stuff of cheesy high-school Republican club debates.

In the 1990 Gulf war we paid 5% of the bill, today we are fronting 90%, over 200 Billion dollars so far. We are looking at a 450 Billion dollar defecit this year alone with over 7 Trillion dollars of debt. Some economists forcast the debt load is really 10 times higher when you factor in age distribution and the problem looming with Social Security and Medicare in a few years.

So while Bush continues to give even deeper tax cuts, against the advice of the Treasury Secretary (who they fired) and even against the wishes of Repubican Senators like John McCain, we are forced to borrow money to equip our troops.

You guys need to get beyond Reaganomics 101 and take a look at the real problems facing this country. Realize that Bush is doing his best to keep that blanket pulled tightly over your head.

-spence

Originally posted by Iwannakeeper
1. no need to make personal attacks. I am not name calling. and I did not mean my comments regarding art to be taken offensively.
I didn't take it personally as I don't think you knew I had a BFA, although your notion that an Art degree is somehow less deserving is quite absurd.

-spence

After reading this - I know why I don't come in that often. ;)

My wife believes we shot down the airliner that supposely crashed into the ground. It is some gut feeling she has.

My parents are immigrants and I am first generation in the USA. All I can say is: I LOVE this country and would die defending it. I have always had the utmost respect for the police, fire dept and the military. You know I try to treat each person with the same amount of respect until they prove for me to do otherwise. I hope that I may understand all this madness before I die.

What happened to the kids in Russia is even more terrible - those who rigged the explosives & those who shot the kids in the back as they were fleeing deserve the most painful and worse death I could ever wish upon a human being.

I am amazed at what man can to do to each other. :( This saddens my heart. I hope that when our children are older that they can feel safe again.

Originally posted by Iwannakeeper
Spence,

1. I like what I have seen of Eben's work as well. And I encourage and would buy some of Eben's work. But if Eben is getting my tax dollars to subsidise his art, then I am unhappy. I want to make the decision if I buy his work. Let the free market dictate the value of his work, not the government subsidies.


First of all... I dont call myself an artist. I'm a craftsman.
trust me, I bust my ass to make $$ I'm not poor and you'd be very suprised at the volume of work that i sell at my shop.. The glass that i've posted here has really just been stuff that i've made for fun on my lunchbreak, the work that i make to survive is very utilitatian functional work, which is very marketable.. as far as me getting tax dollars to make work is rediculous. the government see's me as a small business and treats me as such. That being said, i will say that because I offer a luxury item to the public, i do depend on peoples disposable income... so when I see that the americans are becoming more and more squeezed of thier income, that means that I will suffer...maybe this wll help some understand my political stance. I also have a newborn who has me really thinking about what this planet will be like in 50 years:smash:
There are artists out there that do get grants to do large scale work from fed funds... for instance there is the national endowment for the arts...This fund was set up to give talanted artists the funds to create public arts projects that are solely for the benifit of the public, and to enhance our culture. I gotta say that Bush has cut that program back quite a bit.... maybe even erradicated it.

Again... i pay taxes, i own a business, and i make a profit. oh.. i have healthcare for myself and i own a house and 2 cars.... things are good for me, but i know that they could be better:huh:

Originally posted by Eben
Again... i pay taxes, i own a business, and i make a profit. oh.. i have healthcare for myself and i own a house and 2 cars.... things are good for me, but i know that they could be better:huh:
Eben, you're not getting a Van Staal :hs:

Eben,

Where do you sell your glass works? I would be interested. I have a mild interst in glasswork, but the little woman is crazy about glass. she went through a Morano (SP) phase. I would love to introduce her to some local Craftsman's work.


I know I said I wouldn't post again, but what the hell.

-IWK

Eben, you should post your website, its pretty cool



oh yeah....kerry sucks :p

:smash: bush swallows :hihi: sorry had to.. couldnt resist:D

um i dont want to be called a spammer, but you asked, so heres my website... its not current work, but its a good idea of the work i do on a daily basis (since the baby showed up its every other day)...

www.ebenhortonglass.com

I meant what I said
And I said what I meant:
An elephant's faithful
One hundred percent!
You can throw me in jail,
Lock me up in a zoo...
But I won't desert my egg
And I will not abandon Who!

Eben... you would enjoy www.letsroll911.org

:hs: