http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/politics/9601875.htm

Cheney Warns Against Vote for Kerry

AMY LORENTZEN

Associated Press

DES MOINES, Iowa - Vice President #^&#^&#^&#^& Cheney on Tuesday warned Americans about voting for Democratic Sen. John Kerry, saying that if the nation makes the wrong choice on Election Day it faces the threat of another terrorist attack.

The Kerry-Edwards campaign immediately rejected those comments as "scare tactics" that crossed the line.

"It's absolutely essential that eight weeks from today, on Nov. 2, we make the right choice, because if we make the wrong choice then the danger is that we'll get hit again and we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States," Cheney told about 350 supporters at a town-hall meeting in this Iowa city.

If Kerry were elected, Cheney said the nation risks falling back into a "pre-9/11 mind-set" that terrorist attacks are criminal acts that require a reactive approach. Instead, he said Bush's offensive approach works to root out terrorists where they plan and train, and pressure countries that harbor terrorists.

Cheney pointed to Afghanistan as a success story in pursuing terrorists although the Sept. 11 mastermind, Osama bin Laden, remains at large. In Iraq, the vice president said, the United States has taken out a leader who used weapons of mass destruction against his own people and harbored other terrorists.

"Saddam Hussein today is in jail, which is exactly where he belongs," Cheney said.

Democratic vice presidential candidate John Edwards issued a statement, saying, "#^&#^&#^&#^& Cheney's scare tactics crossed the line today, showing once again that he and George Bush will do anything and say anything to save their jobs. Protecting America from vicious terrorists is not a Democratic or Republican issue and #^&#^&#^&#^& Cheney and George Bush should know that."

Edwards added that he and Kerry "will keep American safe, and we will not divide the American people to do it."

The candidates are campaigning hard for Iowa's seven electoral votes. Democrat Al Gore narrowly won the state in 2000. Bush has campaigned in the state five times in the last month, and Cheney has made three stops.

Hours before Cheney spoke, the Congressional Budget Office said this year's federal deficit will hit a record $422 billion. Cheney, in praising Bush's tax cuts, noted that the CBO said this year's projected deficit will be smaller than analysts had expected.


This guy is vice president, informed voters see this crap, and still want to vote for him?

He's been smoking way too much crack with Zell apparently.

Whats next?
If you vote for Kerry you're gonna get shipped to Guantanamo Bay as a terrorist supporter?

Vote for Bush - or You'll DIE :gorez:

Like I said Likwid... they want you to be scared out of your mind so you'll vote for them...
:smash:

shouldn't this say smoking too much POT with clinton?

Originally posted by likwid
[url]He's been smoking way too much crack with Zell apparently.

I don't think that John Kerry, with the help of the French, will do a very good job of protecting America from terrorist attacks.

The last democrat President did nothing when the WTC was bombed the first time, or when the U.S.S. Cole was attacked.

While some of the domestic policy issues appear to be lacking, I feel that balanced budget, gay marraige and a few other points will mean next to nothing if Ali Babba and the 40 Thieves blow us all up.

Originally posted by slapshot
While some of the domestic policy issues appear to be lacking, I feel that balanced budget, gay marraige and a few other points will mean next to nothing if Ali Babba and the 40 Thieves blow us all up.

Go build yourself a bomb shelter, and while you're at it, make sure its airtight.

Originally posted by green meanie
shouldn't this say smoking too much POT with clinton?

dont forget, 'W' had a nasty coke habit in college and got a DUI up in maine, so he's no angle either.

Originally posted by likwid
Go build yourself a bomb shelter, and while you're at it, make sure its airtight.

Or maybe, I could burry my head in the sand too.:smash:

Not voting for any of them....they all suck anyway!:smash:

Originally posted by slapshot
The last democrat President did nothing when the WTC was bombed the first time, or when the U.S.S. Cole was attacked.

Yea, because 9/11 was only a wake up call for the Republicans right?

:hs:

Originally posted by Eben
dont forget, 'W' had a nasty coke habit in college and got a DUI up in maine, so he's no angle either. true, but who didn't? :angel:

What he said was: It's absolutely essential that eight weeks from today, on Nov. 2, we make the right choice, because if we make the wrong choice then the danger is that we'll get hit again and we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States," Cheney told about 350 supporters at a town-hall meeting in this Iowa city.

He said the "danger is".
I believe its obvious that the steps taken by the next Pres. will impact whether there is another successful terrrorist attack on US turf.
I think you all would agree, I think you (and the press) are turning this into: Vote for Bush or else. Which is not what was said.

RIJIMMY, there is no mistaking what Cheney said.

Vote for me, or you will DIE :hang:

I don't see how this could be interpteted any other way.

-spence

I got news for you all.....we are all going to die!:huh: Nobody is getting out of here alive! Its just a shame that anyone in this day in age has to die because of some stupid politicians poor judgement!:smash:

Originally posted by slapshot
...The last democrat President did nothing when the WTC was bombed the first time, or when the U.S.S. Cole was attacked...

I seem to remember a marine barricks in Lebanon getting bombed a few years back (200+ marines died) and no response. Wasn't that a repub in office then :rolleyes: (Reagan for those who are not sure). Believe there have been a few others in other administrations too. 9/11 was the first major one on US soil. Any president in office at that time would have gone into Afganistan.

Balanced budget? Didn't W start with a budget surplus. How many trillion deficit do we have now?

Jigman

The part I still don't understand is if Osama and his posse are the reasons for the two WTC bombings and bombings in Africa, Bali, the Cole etc., and are "the" major terror threat to our freedom Why did Bush go and send us to war against Iraq? 2.5 Billion is a lot of cake and the poor troops fighting and dying there ( now over 1000 since the war "ended"). Seems to me we (he) should have made vaporizing Osama and his gang the first top priority then deal with a despotic maniac like Saddam. The terrorists arte still active because we turned our assets and young american lives elsewhere. I find it hard to believe that Kerry or anybody for that matter would turn away from the Al-Qaida problem although W did. Tommy Franks the american general who headed up the war (when it was officially on) says that Bush and Cheney and that war mungor Rumsfeld took away practically all the Afghan campaign assets ( when we were actually getting close to the Big O) and turned thier attention to Iraq. Gotta bring a smile to 'ol Osama's face when he thinks about it don't you think?

Then there are W's economics policies. That rebate you got for 600 bucks last year was just a front from the feds on the next years tax return ( if you were lucky enough to get one if not guess what you owed them the 600 bills back) Publicity stunt. The oil companies reported a 32% increase over last years profits. Now if you know a little about accounting practises of large corporations you know that the percentage was larger but that the bean counters just could not hide anymore so the fess up to 32%. Oh yeah, 32% was the largest increase in the last few years. Amazing coincidence that your gas at the pump was so high during the same period isn't it?

Then there are W's free trade/global economy strategies. For example I bet all of you out there at one time or another have owned a pair of Levi's Jeans ( unless you are a complete preppy).
W's policy has enabled Levi's ( a very old american company) to close all it's remaining US and Canadian plants ( I wasn't wild about the Canada thing but hey, someday they will be part of the good 'ol USA so I let it slide) In early 2004 Levi's announced that they were closing the last two plants in the US and moving them and the jobs to latin America and Asia. 3300 people lost thier jobs
3300 loyal american citizens. And to top it off the board of Levi's, in recognition of his hard work, gave the CEO of the company a 22 million dollar bonus ( one year's bonus). Talk about F&*^%$ up. I agree with Kerry on that part.

It's too bad that all we have to choose from is these two jamokes. There are people out there who could and should be president but you need to be wealthy, have a spotless record and be immune to the horsepucky that is gonna be brought down on you. Cheney is using plain old scare tactics and that is a real shame. W's a puppet on a string and people like Cheney, Rumsfeld and Ashcroft are pulling his strings. It's time W let Daddy's war go. We cannot win in a country that doesn't want us there. Saddam is done so let's hit the road. It reminds me of Vietnam in some ways. It's peace with honor time. In the near future once we get out of there and get back to the hunt for Osama you will be able to go to your local Old Navy store and buy shirts and pants and sandals that say "Made In Iraq" just like right now they say "Made In Vietnam", guess that's what my brother John died for on March 11th, 1969.:wall:

We cannot go into the hearts and minds of terrorists and change their mind. If they interpret their religious laws in an extremist fashion they are absolutely correct in saying America is a threat to their way of life.
The war in Iraq is one of the attempts to eliminate a base of operations. Name one country that would now say, "we are providing a safe harbor to Bin-laden". None will. Hussein repeatedly went against the UN, funded terrorism in Israel and had a history of attacking innocent people. Remember in the Gulf war when he randomly shot SCUDS at Israel? If the operation in Iraq is successful, that’s one less place to harbor and fund terrorists. Bin Laden is on the run, we are working closely with Pakistan and Afghanistan to keep them on the run. Iraq had nothing to do with Bin-laden, but Hussein promoted terrorism and if given the opportunity would have done all he could to help Al-Queda hurt the US.
If you have a better solution, please share. Please provide Kerry's solution. I have never heard it. I know Bush's plan and I agree.

You my friend have been "Bushwhacked". Scuds were crude attempts at old soviet missile technologies. Evidence of funding and supporting terrorism? Missed that, just like the wmd's that Saddam had according to George and his "intelligence people". The only people saddam ever terrorized were his own subjects not that that is condoneable. The US government has even made it known that there was no reliable link to Saddam and Osama. Maniacal Despots ( like Hitler and Stalin etc.) never share anything they want it all for themselves and want no favors to be owed by them. The Israelis need to look in the mirror at thier own practices. Most people forget that before it was named Israel it was known as Palestine then the U.N. who got handed the problem just picked out a spot on the map near where they wanted them to be and sent all of them there . Granted everyone should have a homeland but I guess they thought those dumb assed peasent sheep herder Plaestinians wouldn't even notice. Wrong. Just last week "our friends" the Israelis got caught spying on us again. Nice real nice. Base of Operations before the war started ? I am sure Al-Qaida made overtones to Saddam but again, as I said before, according to your man Bush's people, Saddam rejected them. Now it's a different story though what with Iraq so f*&^%$ up all kinds of terrorists are moving in. You know, like the dudes that blew up seven good marines the other day and blow up someone else on an almost daily basis. It that vane I agrre totally, it is a terrorist base now and W and his guys, cause they didn't think about it created it. Ever been pulled out of your 8th grade math class, driven home with no idea why until a Marine Corps. notification team came to your door and tell you and your parents that thier son and your brother has been killed for what turned out to be an invalid reason? I have. George hasn't. Yes the troops are doping thier duty and do it everyday magnificently and give up thier lives doing it and in a real crises, like the real war on terrorism, it is justified but still hard to take.
Wrapped in the flag for the glory it represents is honorable but wrapping in the flag for hidden agendas is tantamount to treason.
In the Marine Corps. in boot camp they tell you that blind faith will kill you. It's killing an awful lot of young americans right now for the wrong reasons. Kerry ain't no prize but he is the lesser of the two evils right now and I will vote for him as it is my right and patriotic duty to do so. No matter who you like you must get out and vote. It is too important and as a citizen it is your duty. No hard feelings I hope I just luv a good debate.
:D

Well said Flaptail :cheers:

-spence

"The only people saddam ever terrorized were his own subjects not that that is condoneable"

- Sadamm seized Iran's oil fields in the 80's, starting a war
- Sadaam invaded Kuwait, without justfication to seize oil
- Sadaam shot SCUD missles at Isreal in the 1st Gulf war. Isreal had nothing to do with it
- Sadaam put up funding of 25,000 dollars for each family of Palestine suicide bombers
- Sadaam randomly shot at US aircraft enforcing the UN teaty

I never heard any of this from Bush, I know it from following the news. If you dont know this , looks like you're "Dumbwacked"

:smash:

Originally posted by RIJIMMY
- Sadamm seized Iran's oil fields in the 80's, starting a war
In which we backed Saddam!
- Sadaam invaded Kuwait, without justfication to seize oil
In which we led a real coalition under UN Mandate to remove him
- Sadaam shot SCUD missles at Isreal in the 1st Gulf war. Isreal had nothing to do with it
So? he was being invaded and just trying to stir the pot up. You will note that because the world was on our side it didn't work.
- Sadaam put up funding of 25,000 dollars for each family of Palestine suicide bombers
I'm not sure how frequent this was, although I'm sure it did happen. Regardless, compared to the support from Syria and Iran it's a drop in the bucket.
- Sadaam randomly shot at US aircraft enforcing the UN teaty
And he couldn't even manage to shoot one down. Again this is trivial.

We were sold this war on WMD and links to al Qaida which were massive distortions. You've been BUSHWACKED :smash:

-spence

Maybe you were sold Spence, but not me, look back on the numnerous posts I have out here over the last several weeks and I NEVER mentioned WMD.

Spence, not sure how your responses above explain how Sadaam never terrorized anyone but his own people, looks like he was trouble to me. I guess Flap it was okay when hitler was terrrizing his own Jews, guess its only became a problem for us when he invaded Poland.

RIJIMMY, everyone agrees Saddam was a bastard. The issue is how do you deal with him? The notion that this was something that couldn't wait another second was proved to be false. The entire world saw it, but Bush pressed ahead anyway.

That's the problem, and now we are paying the price in lives and taxpayer dollars.

-spence

Originally posted by Jigman
I seem to remember a marine barricks in Lebanon getting bombed a few years back (200+ marines died) and no response. Wasn't that a repub in office then :rolleyes: (Reagan for those who are not sure).

Jigman

You must have been in college, smoking too much when that happen.

I remember floating off the Lebanon coast, 500 yards behind the USS New Jersey while she was firing full broadsides of nine 16" guns and flattening half the city. I wonder if that looked like "no response" from shore?

Jimmy, FDR, the Pope and just about everyone else looked away too and he only started killing them after he invaded Poland up until then he deported them and then and only then did he start killing "His Jews" commies, the homos, the gypsies, catholics, red heads, mentally challenged, physically challenged, artists, thinkers, teachers etc. Come on man you can't see the forest from the trees here. Spence is a genius! He has it nailed! We could have done something with Iraq after we got rid of Osama and his gang. I don't disagree that Saddam was a bad guy it's just that in the interest of national security he was way down on the ladder at the moment. And don't forget it was W's Dad who could have nixed this problem way back in 1991 when we were less than fifty miles from Bahgdad. Hey Daddy look at me I am a war President and I am gonna finsh what you started. Are you proud of me Daddy? W doesn't know what it's like to be under fire, Kerry at least does, W was a weekend jet jockey back in the States. He was freakin' Christmas help as far as the military is concerned! ( Cuttin' lines and turnin and burnin', what a rush snortin a line and going supersonic must have been!) I luv this stuff!

Navy Chief, thank you for your service. ( I mean that sincerely).
I was on Race Point that night in a giant size wise Bluefish blitz we in the truck warming up in the wee hours of the morning when the news came over the radio. The New Jersey firing 16 inchers that must have been a sight!

RIJIMMY from everything your saying, I'd bet a hab's needlefish that you are jewish. Now if you are, dont think i'm attacking you for your faith here...I hve nothing agianst the jewish faith... i'm just going to say that It is not our responsibility to protect israel from its neighbors... remember.. israel has an army. Is is mandatory that every jewish man serve in the army, so you can rest assured, they are ready to protect themselves and they do everyday... i beleive they have one of he best Intelegence networks in the world.
Yes saddam was a bastard. Yes saddam was a theat... ,but he was athreat to Isreal, not us. right now Iran and North korea are bigger threats and were totally ignoring them for re-election purposes, but it's those countries that pose the real thrat to our country... shoot, Bush is more of a threat to our country than saddam ever was.

Why not let Israel overthrow and rebuild Iraq?

flaptail... i couldnt have said that better :kewl:

it would be interesting to see how much $$$ bush an cheeney have profited from the ear in iraq... i bet they made millions.

Originally posted by Eben
dont forget, 'W' had a nasty coke habit in college and got a DUI up in maine, so he's no angel either.
Originally posted by tlapinski
true, but who didn't? :angel:

I didnt !

never went to college to study

Wahoo, finally all this quibling pays off !!!!!!!!!!!! A free Habs!!!!



Baptized at St Judes in Derby back in 69
Attended St. Mary's school in Derbt Ct from 2-8th grade
Attended Nore Dame HS in West HAven Ct.
Accepted at Fairfield U and Prov Coll but opted for a state school so I could party.
I was raised as catholic as they come!!!!!


Now, I'm probabaly an atheist or at least an agnostic.
:happy:

My only reference to Jews was in response to Flap saying Sadaam only hurt his own people and use Hitler and the Jews as an example. ALso that Hussein chucked random missles at Isreal.
I can care less about Isreal although I do feel for the ampunt of terrorism they experince

Eben,
1. please tell me what UN resolutions Iran and N. Korea have broken?
2. Please tell me how many they have repeatdly broken?
3. Please tell me who they have invaded in less that 40 years?
4. Please tell me how Bush and Cheney have profitted from the war and please tell me why, if this is true, Kerry's campaign has not been providing evidence ?
5. Why do you (spence, flap, eben) always ignore Clinton's comments to the Pentagon that Iraq must be dealt with? Bush acted on historical evidence, prior administration evidnce, other country's intell as well as our own.

RIJIMMY, you're ignoring the fact that 9/11 was supposed to have changed everything. At least that's what Bush keeps telling us.

Most of the anti-Iraq rhetoric you heard from Congress and Clinton was either based on old intel, or was what the Bush Administration was telling them.

The facts are the Bush Admin didn't have current information to back up what it was saying. Read the Iraq intel report, they had nothing more than fumes.

We all know the most dangerous scenario is a nuke attack and Bush has ignored most of the serious contributors to this threat...Bin Laden, N Korea, Iran and unprotected borders and ports. He has done this because our nation's resources have been consumed by Iraq.

-spence

dang i thought i had you pegged:smash: ok you are granted one plug out of my bag if we run across eachother on the sand or rocks:D
firstly, Iran is alrady sending verbal threats at us for a war if we attack their nuclear facilities, so we are sending threats back at at them...its all very stupid..But i agree, they havent broken any resolutions yet that I know of.

2-none- but they are flexing theier muscles at us and korea has missles pointed at us... thus korea at least poses a huge threat to us..ten fold the threat that iraq posed.

3-Korea is posed to invade south korea at any time... they are at a constant state of iminent attack when called to do so, but they havent attacked anyone yet.

4-your kidding me right??? Um.. Bush has huge holdings in at least one defense company that makes the bombs we use... and slick #^&#^&#^&#^& was the CEO of halliburton, which has been caught several times trying to rip off america... ne's no longer CEO, but he's a huge share holder, so when they make money he makes money... Did you know that halliburton was awarded all the Iraqi contracts without even a bidding process??? Lets also not forget about all the Oil ties between cheeney and bush... like flap said, and like i've said before, the oil compainies posted a 32% profit this year thanks to the war...i bet they made a killing...
5- we all agree that saddam had to be dealt with.. ITS THE WAY BUSH DID IT THAT DRIVES US CRAZY!!!!!:smash: it might have taken longer, but we could have done something else to get him out of power...help stage an overthrow.. something.. but not the way we did it.... this will be another vietnam, you watch...

North Korea doesn't attack South Korea because we have military forces in South Korea and North Korea know that they will become a nuclear wasteland if they do anything stupid.

The treaty or sanction that was broken by North Korea, Libya, Pakistan, India, Iraq and Iran is called the "Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty" They signed it, then they broke it. The treaty against use of chemical weapons is a thing called the Geneva Convention.

If you want to know about a thousand more resolutions that Iraq broke repeatedly, check out the UN Security Counsel web page and do a little reading.

I think to say that the president went to war to increase his personnal wealth is a democrat, anti-bush, anti-military, anti-american, ignorant thing to say. It's not like W. is hurting for cash. I don't understand what the deal was with Halyburton, why the got the contracts without bidding, so I'm not going to defend that or bust on it.

Here's a question on the WMD.

After the first gulf war, the inspectors went into Iraq. The found, Scuds, Chemical weapons, Biological research, Nuclear research. All these thing were accounted for.

Then, they went hiding. Disappeared. We know for a fact that Saddam Hussien used chemical weapons against: The kurds and the Iranians.

During the 12 or 13 years after the first gulf war, the UN inspectors where trying to find the weapons to get them dismanteled. They couldn't find them. I mean, we're talking about specific serial numbers of scuds.

General Franks was really sure that he would use them against us. Why didn't he? Probably because Hussien himself had "weapons release" authority for chemical weapons. We cut off his communication system so completely that he wasn't able to release them.

Are there still WMD in Iraq? YES, probably hidden in some mountain or in some guys garage. But if Hussien would have helped, he wouldn't have gotten invaded. Are we, as a country to assume that these weapons don't exist? Are we to assume that he won't dump one on Boston or Warwick? NOT AFTER 9/11

Reagan bombed the turds out of the hills and mountains surrounding the lebonese city where the marine corp barracks was bombed. Remember the pictures of the sixteen inch guns on the battle cruisers blazing away.

I

This is the first time I have bother to look at this part of J.R.'s website. If I start typing a response I don't think I could finish before midnight.
Flaptail I am curious when and how your brother died in the service?
Eben, curious how old you are? Just so you know living in Israel doesn't automatically make you a jew. Regardless every male or female citizen of Israel has to enter the armed forces or go to work in a field chosen for you by the Israeli government.
I have never been in the service but have many friends from every era that have including four uncles who spents thirty years or more in the air force, navy, army tank corps.
Everyone here can argue about what a president did or did not do at any given point in time during our countries lifespan. When someone sits and reads all of your statements about what you believe in and what you believe to be true it is easy to see who is selfish and who isn't. I have always felt that the democrats shoot themselves in the foot during times like we have right now in Iraq. To my way of thinking I believe that we should try and help every country who believes democracy is right for them then we should assist that country every way we can. I think democracy in a middle eastern country would be great. I find it difficult to believe that the majority of my fellows democrats don't feel the same way. Most the the Massachusetts democrats think being in Iraq is an obscenity against all good and moral americans. And this is what I mean about selfish democrat. Why is it a great thing for us but not for the Iraqi's. Are they not deserving of better?
Lets be realistic Flap and Eben, where do you want the battle against terrorism taking place here or there. Part of what the troops are doing in Iraq is getting every nut who hates America out of hiding so they can get them in one place and blast the you know what out of them. It will come here to our shores once again though. And guys like you two will be the first to complain that George didn't do enough to protect you or your families. He didn't take away enough personel liberties and start house to house searches and stopping people on the street for routine questioning/interrogation. If your going to offer up all this shallow puddle-deep rhetoric at least you could back it up with answers to the problems posed and talked about. George or anyone else could no more predict the events on 9-11 than a street cop could tell which Cumberlands Farms is going to be robbed.
Eben, before you ask, I am an Irish Catholic who is married to a jew.

Just for ships and giggles some of you more literate folks should read the patriot act.

That alone is reason enough for GWB to be marched out of washington TODAY.

Go find it in the National Register.
Read it.
Then tell me he, and Ashcroft, and the rest of those "Nationalists" who want to "protect the HOMELAND" should stay in office.

GWB is a mindless puppet.

Kerry has a brain in his head. He is able to look at an issue. Form his own opinion, and given new facts reformulate that opinion.

GWB cant even put two words together correctly.

Bush: OB-GYNs Kept from 'Practicing Their Love'

Tue Sep 7, 9:27 AM ET

Add Oddly Enough - Reuters to My Yahoo!

POPLAR BLUFF, Mo. (Reuters) - President Bush offered an unexpected reason on Monday for cracking down on frivolous medical lawsuits: "Too many OB-GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country."

The Republican president, long known for verbal and grammatical lapses, included the anecdote about obstetrician gynecologists in his stump speech attacking Democratic presidential rival Sen. John Kerry and his running mate, Sen. John Edwards, a former trial lawyer.

At a rally of cheering supporters in Poplar Bluff, Missouri, Bush made his usual pitch for limiting "frivolous lawsuits" that he said drive up the cost of health care and run doctors out of business.

But then he added, "We've got an issue in America. Too many good docs are getting out of business. Too many OB-GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country."

Unfazed, Bush went on to deride his rivals as "pro-trial lawyer," and concluded, "I think you've got to make a choice. My opponent made his choice, and he put him on the ticket. I made my choice. I'm for medical liability reform now.":smash: :smash:

Well said MikeTLive :cheers:

And Navy Chief, you don't think David Kay with complete and unfettered access for 3 years now couldn't find them if they were there? We were told he had stockpiles, labs, serious ability to produce...they haven't found a thing.

The only thing that would have worried me about Saddam was nukes and we knew he wasn't even close to these, and the inspectors haven't even turned up an active program.

If al Qaida want's chem or bio weapons I'm sure Syria and Iran can give them all they want. We don't seem to be doing much about those guys though. Oh yes, they actually have the ability to fight back :rolleyes:

We're in it till the end now, but I'm afraid there's no stopping the violence until we pull our troops. Bush's lack of a plan to stabalize the country and secure the border after Saddam fell is killing us, literally.

850 troops have died since Bush declared major combat over. This isn't some miscalculation, they tried to finess the war planning, F'ed up royally and need to be held accountable.

-spence

i remember saddam not letting them inspect buildings for days then saying ok only after he probably moved what they where looking for.

Originally posted by spence
you don't think David Kay with complete and unfettered access for 3 years now couldn't find them if they were there? We were told he had stockpiles, labs, serious ability to produce...they haven't found a thing.

Exactly my point. He had these weapons, this is indisputable. We had serial numbers, batch numbers on this stuff. Then it disappeared. Were did it go ? What happened to Scud #3456 ?
What happened to Chemical drum #7779 ?

Think about searching the entire states of Nevada and Arizona looking for these things that someone is trying to hide.

:) Sadam, most certainly did have WMDs'!!!!!

It is a proven fact!!!!!


And we do have evidence!!!!!

Swimmer, my brother John was in the 1st Marine Div. He went in country on March 1st 1969, unlike others in his infantry unit he had the company of his best friend since Kindergarten, David Roy ( they were our next door neighbors) They went through grammar school, high school and joined the Marines together. Boot camp at Parris Island, advanced infantry training at Camp Le Jeune to San Diego then Nam. John stepped on a land mine on his 2nd patrol and (supposedly) was killed instantly. David was there right behind him when it happened and wrote us a letter a few days later describing the events. On March 21st, ten days later, David was back on patrol as a point man and was killed when a fire fight broke out and he was mortally wounded from a head shot. John's name can be found on panel 26W line 86 and David's name can be found on panel 29W line14.:(

Originally posted by Navy Chief
Think about searching the entire states of Nevada and Arizona looking for these things that someone is trying to hide.
I know, I know...at one point I said the exact same thing.

But most experts agree that little of his bio/chemical weapons would be of much use today, they don't have much of a shelf life.

Don't you find it odd that the UN inspectors found nothing, David Kay with complete and unfettered access for over a year have found nothing, and the new guy who took his place has found nothing of any substance.

Wouldn't you think they could find 1 person out of 20 Million who would stand up to take the reward and tell us where something is?

Don't you think even if it had been moved that we would find some evidence that something had once been there?

So far Zero, Nada, Zilch, Squat.

Read the bi-partisan report on Iraq's WMD. Our only real evidence that Iraq had WMD was that he had them in 1990. The rest was mostly assumption and unverified stories.

It was extremely weak.

I would have personally supported a US led coalition to remove Saddam for UN violations alone, but that's not what was sold. It was the threat that Saddam could deploy WMD in 45 min that drove our timetable. It was the threat of a mushroom cloud in the hands of al Qaida that drove our timetable.

These threats were proven to be absurd distortions not supported by intel or facts.

The World was completely behind us in Afghanistan because we had a clear mandate, so don't say the UN is useless. It's the only Global authority capable of granting legitimacy to such actions, it's our own creation, and it's all we have. For the US to strike pre-emptively against the wishes of the World is always an option, but is the most serious of options. Bush provided no evidence to justify ditching the World and going in with just the UK.

Subverting the UN process to invade when Bush wanted to has done incredible damage to our International credibility and has given our enemies a window of opportunity to exploit which is wide open. In removing Saddam without the World at our side we have given Bin Laden exactly what he asked for.

This is the beef Independents like myself have with Bush over Iraq. It's not that we're pussys or don't see threats, but if you have to fool people to get your way, perhaps something isn't right. The decision to remove Saddam was made long before 9/11, I don't want a President that uses war as a means to an agenda. This is extremely transparent and extremely dangerous.

If our plan is to transform the Middle East by bombing them into Democracy against their wishes, we're making a huge mistake. The notion that they'll be better off for it sound a lot like the master whipping the slave in Roots. Your name is Toby! it's not gonna work and is only going to cause more terror at home if we intend to have an open society and respect the constitution.

-spence

Gee whiz,Cheney likes hitting below the belt, and by the way ...who was VP when 9/11 happened ?

:) Who was the President that could have taken out "Osama"!!!???
But let him go instead!!!!!

You are correct "CLINTON!!!!"

Spence,
If al Qaida want's chem or bio weapons I'm sure Syria and Iran can give them all they want. We don't seem to be doing much about those guys though. Oh yes, they actually have the ability to fight back

- you really think so? After Iraq? Rememebr, Hussein was THE military power in the Middle East, then he was found hiding in a ditch. You think the leaders of Syria and Iran would DARE give any type OF WMD to any terrorists? It aint goign to happen, and you know why? Because Bush said that all countries who harbor or support terrorists will be treated just like terrorist. And he kept his word.
Once again, dont take my words for thsi, read the Ed Koch letter I posted. Read what an 80yr old Democrat and extremely popular and infulential leader had to say.

"Subverting the UN process to invade when Bush wanted to has done incredible damage to our International credibility and has given our enemies a window of opportunity to exploit which is wide open." -Spence

Yea, because UN resolutions do sooooo much. They are a piece of paper, and if you don't want to abide, then don't. We enforced the UN sanctions. The UN security counsel signed our bill to force Saddam to find his WMD or else. The UN signed and delivered this to Hussien. Not solely a U.S. mandate, a UN mandate. So Saddam blew off the UN again and we took him out of the picture.

How many UN resolutions were written telling Gaddafi to get rid of his WMD capability and stop harboring terrorist? Alot. Oh, so after Iraq got invaded, guess who else came around with the white flag? That's right, Mummar. So we put muscle to the resolutions.

UN resolutions might represent "legitimacy" to you.

I think "legitimacy" is a Tomahawk cruise missle, a M-1 Abrams , a F-18 Super Hornet and ordnance on target.

You go Chief:claps:

Originally posted by Navy Chief
UN resolutions might represent "legitimacy" to you.

I think "legitimacy" is a Tomahawk cruise missle, a M-1 Abrams , a F-18 Super Hornet and ordnance on target.
So should we dissolve all International law, Geneva convention etc... That's what you're calling for right?

-spence

Originally posted by Navy Chief
I remember floating off the Lebanon coast, 500 yards behind the USS New Jersey while she was firing full broadsides of nine 16" guns and flattening half the city. I wonder if that looked like "no response" from shore?

Thanks for the clarification. Good work with those 16 inchers :kewl:

Originally posted by Navy Chief
Jigman

You must have been in college, smoking too much when that happen.

Nope. and you have never met me so your comment is way out of line.

Jigman

Fly Rod, you are going to have to explain that one further. My understanding was that Bin Ladin was offered up to the US under Clinton, but, at that time, had done nothing to the US. We had no reason to take him. Check back a bit further, who helped train Bin Ladin?

Jigman

Originally posted by spence
So should we dissolve all International law, Geneva convention etc... That's what you're calling for right?
-spence

You know Spence, I spent about 4 years of my life floating around the Northern Persian Gulf enforcing UN Resolutions. I remember having 38 Iraqi oil smugglers parked in our holding area. We would take their ships to the UAE, Kuwait or Bahrain and they would sell the ships right back to the Iraqi's. The best thing we could do was take them to Kuwait, because they would kill the crew. (after we left). This during the "oil for food" program. I know that some of these guys were just trying to make a living, but give me a break. It would have made alot bigger impression on them if we would have sunk everyone of those oil tankers.

What I'm saying Spence is that a UN mandate or resolution or sanction means nothing unless someone (like us) goes in and blows something up. Now the UN mandates mean something.
Ask Gaddafi.


Jigman, you're right I don't know you. Sorry about the pot smoking reference. We might have trained OBL to fight Soviets. You know that before WWII some Japanese Admiral named Yamoto went to the US Navy war college.

Chief, I completely agree that UN resolutions without a real threat of violence are worthless. This is exactly the reason Kerry voted to give President Bush authority before He went to the UN to get the inspectors back in.

When and how you use that force is an entirely different matter.

The President promised to build a strong coalition and put the war before a UN vote which he never did because it was clear we didn't have the evidence to justify an immediate invasion.

It was at best extremely reckless, and now we're paying the price.

-spence

Spence

What is the price for your freedom?


Others paid it for you.

Originally posted by Navy Chief
Others paid it for you.
No we all pay. We fund the war and loose family members and friends. While the military does the dirty work, elected and appointed civilians send them.

Iraq has been exposed as an idiological war, not a pre-emptive one. The worst thing we can do to our troops is sent them to war on an overstated case, without proper planning and without proper equipment.

-spence

The DEM'S keep talking about proper equipment for the military but they are the one's who have been rapping the military for close to 40 year's now to fund BS social programs, They are the last one who should be pointing a finger unless they are looking in the mirror.

You Go KLMulder

Originally posted by KLMulder
The DEM'S keep talking about proper equipment for the military but they are the one's who have been rapping the military for close to 40 year's now to fund BS social programs, They are the last one who should be pointing a finger unless they are looking in the mirror.
Care to back this up KL because it sounds like a bunch of hot air.

-spence

Originally posted by spence
No we all pay. We fund the war and loose family members and friends. While the military does the dirty work, elected and appointed civilians send them.
-spence


What has this war cost you Spence ? Do you know anyone that has been KIA ? Did you spend anytime over there ? Have your taxes gone up?

Every time we get a Democrat President our military goes straight down the toilet.

You've all been Bushwacked into thinking the militiary is the biggest issue in this country. What about the schools? The economy? What about morals? What about healthcare?

That's right, Bush has done nothing on these issues, and needs to distract the American populace with any other issue. It has been a brilliant campaign by the Repubs, and Bush will be elected in November. All I can hope for is that W's second term is a major wakeup call to Americans that the system has been broken by partisan politics, and it's time to become involved and educated on the issues.

I farted and it stinks !

what about it? you work you pay for your own healthcare. you dont work the GOV't gives you healthcare. so whats the problem?

i mean state gives you health care if you dont work.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
You've all been Bushwacked into thinking the militiary is the biggest issue in this country. What about the schools? The economy? What about morals? What about healthcare?

That's right, Bush has done nothing on these issues, and needs to distract the American populace with any other issue. It has been a brilliant campaign by the Repubs, and Bush will be elected in November. All I can hope for is that W's second term is a major wakeup call to Americans that the system has been broken by partisan politics, and it's time to become involved and educated on the issues.

well said :kewl: