<deleted. by author>

seeing that imagry got me so insensed that I went off the deep end.

Originally posted by MikeTLive
wow



America won its freedom by using terrorist tactics against the more powerful and more civilized british.


He is no better than any of the other Religeous Zealots in the world. A man who makes these types of statements does not belong leading this, or any other, country.

I missed the part where we exploded a horse-drawn cart full of explosives in the middle of Trafalgar Square and killed 3000 innocent British civilians :af: :rolleyes:

geez miketlive, i thought this post was a rememberence not another bush bash!!! said it once and i'll say it again- you guys are UNREAL!

Not the place for that post MikeT.......definately not the place for it!:smash:

Sorry folks. Too much emotion in this issue for me.

America won its freedom by using terrorist tactics against the more powerful and more civilized british.


He is no better than any of the other Religeous Zealots in the world. A man who makes these types of statements does not belong leading this, or any other, country.
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get lost buddy....so out of place here....You lefties get worse and worse by the day. This is excactlly why you guys wont win the white house in Nov. People dont by that crap

Skip, this has nothing to do with left vs right :rolleyes:

I think MikeT makes a very valid point. Terrorisim today is relative to what happened yesterday. This doesn't make it in any way acceptable, but to find a real solution you must be able to trace the path from where it came. This didn't just pop up out of nowhere.

To try to understand why someone would strap explosives to their body and blow up a cafe doesn't mean you seek to legitimize their actions.

The whole "they hate us for our freedoms" line Bush keeps pounding on is complete BS because it ignores the fact that there is 100 years of very recent history directly impacting what's happening today.

Watching the video of the planes hitting the WTC yesterday didn't enrage me like it did three years ago. It made me wonder why we aren't doing more to address the root issues that are fueling global terror.

To put it more bluntly, we need to be a bit more honest about what's going on. The yea, yea killem routine isn't going to get us very far if we are intent on maintaining an open society.

It's fine to use the stick when applicable. I have no problem kicking rear when the situation dictates. But we also need to build bridges to strengthen moderate Islam and deal with real issues that are creating so many terror recruits.

-spence

more like 1000 years of ancient hisory.. get your olive branches and jump in your time machine and go fix everything. btw take kerry with you and leave him there.

Spence

The sight of those planes needs to enrage you. How can it not enrage you. Move to Canada if it doesn't enrage you.

The "they hate us for our freedoms" line that Bush is pounding on is the truth. It's what most historians believe and teach (and remember most teachers are Democrats). The people in the Islamic world want what we have, but they can't have it because their religion and/or goverments won't allow it.

If you spent anytime over there at all, you would agree with me.

We don't need to build any bridges.

Maybe we should blow some more up.

How about this..
"they hate us because we support Isreal who keeps stealing palestiniean land", "they hate us because our troops are occupying thier holy lands"

thats the root of the problem. free teh palestinians, get out of the holy lands and i bet things would get alot better.

Originally posted by Navy Chief
Maybe we should blow some more up.
That would be very effective. A shoot first ask questions later foreign policy is going to kill America faster than anything. We're not dealing with an enemy we can destroy by violence alone.

I'm afraid we're entering the same tit for tat cycle the Israelis and Russians are in. The more civilians we kill in Iraq, and we're killing a lot of them, are simply going to make more insurgents, more bad PR on the Islamic news and create more recruits for al Qaida to bring terror home.

Bush is doing nothing to show Islam that Bin Laden is a bad thing for them as well, in fact he's doing just the opposite. Iraq has demonstrated that we have no problem killing and humiliating muslims which is exactly what Bin Laden told them. No wonder they hold him in such high regard.

I know our troops have done a lot of great things for the Iraqi people on the ground, but the big picture is a complete screwup and the world is watching.

-spence

yeah but our god is better than their god! :smash:

Yea those palestinians are really nice and warm people:rolleyes: They teach they're kids to be suicide bombers and kill isreali children on buses and such. Isreal should stop taking all there crap and end all of that right now...and they could if they wanted too. Destroy those suicide bombing basterds is what i say. How can you even try and justify what the palestians are doing to isreal???:smash: They are F&#&ing murders

yeah but our god is better than their god!


I dont see christians going out and blowing up inocent people. What is it about Islam that teaches people to kill people? I know most muslims are solid people but why are 99.999% of terrosts muslims?? I will stick with my religion thank you. Im even gonna rip W now if you can believe that....I cant stand how he calls islam the religion of peace to try abd kiss theyre asses! call a spade a spade.....they are not peaceful. They teach murder.:af:

Civilian losses are not good, but they are unavoidable. How many civilians lost their lives when we bombed Berlin? How many civilians lost their lives when the japanese bombed Pearl Harbor ? How many civilians lost thier lives when we nuked Hiroshima ? How many civilians lost their lives when the Al Quada blew up the world trade center ?

Collateral damage is the military term for civilians killed. Here is the problem. You can't drop a bomb or shoot a Tomahawk without the possibility of collateral damage. We can take out a single house, no problem. The houses on either side are going to take damage. The houses across the street won't take damage (maybe a windows blown out).

"Bush is doing nothing to show Islam that Bin Laden is a bad thing for them as well, in fact he's doing just the opposite" Spence says. Well if you support Bin Laden you're going to get a guided bomb on your head when you're sleeping.

So the moral of the story is: If the guy next door has been targeting Americans or is a friend of Bin Laden, you need to move or take a vacation.

Because a bad thing is going to wreck your house.

And our God is alot better.

Originally posted by Skip N
yeah but our god is better than their god!


I dont see christians going out and blowing up inocent people. What is it about Islam that teaches people to kill people? I know most muslims are solid people but why are 99.999% of terrosts muslims?? I will stick with my religion thank you. Im even gonna rip W now if you can believe that....I cant stand how he calls islam the religion of peace to try abd kiss theyre asses! call a spade a spade.....they are not peaceful. They teach murder.:af:

What about the IRA? I'm pretty sure they're all christians.

The problem is most religions do have their basis in peace, just as all religions have moments of great violence and turbulence (who's god made it rain 40 days and 40 nights and destroyed all life on the planet).

Religious zealots like to take bits and pieces of their religions and bend them to fit there own agenda. All religions have there radicals that hide behind the guise of "It says so in the bible/koran". America had the KKK, and now other White Supremist Groups, that twist the bible around to make what they were doing seem OK. Now they called themselves good christians the same way Al Queada calls themselves good Muslims.....Are they? Hell NO.

If you start with the mentality that all Terrorists are Muslim pretty soon all people are going to hear are that all Muslims are Terrorists and thats just NOT a healthy mindset to be in. We need to stop generalizing a religion and focus on the actual groups that are causing this problem.

Religion = an excuse to blow people up.

And every single one has done it.

The critical thing to keep in mind is that American policy has had a tremendous influence on the ability of radical Islam to take hold.

It was the USA that helped with a coup in Iran in the 50's and installed the Shaw in the 1970's. Both huge blunders that created massive backlash towards America. It was the USA that gave 4.5 Billion to fighters in Afghanistan (then ignored it) strengthening the hand of Bin Laden and letting the Pakistani secret service help the Taliban take power. It's the USA that has for 80 years helped keep an oppressive Saudi Government in power to keep the oil flowing, and more recently has turned a blind eye to Isreal's consistant violation of International Law and human rights abuses. It was the USA that helped Saddam build his army supporting a known to be brutal dictator.

We've helped lots of bad people over the years, because it seemed to be to the people in power in our interest at the time.

Our history is what it is. I don't feel the need to owe anybody for past mistakes, but the notion that radical Islam has just sprung up out of nowhere and they hate us for our freedoms is patently absurd.

The single most dangerous thing we can do as a country is to not realize the negative potential of our actions and weigh our course appropriately.

Doesn't mean we can't be tough when we need to, but the image we're projecting under Bush is one of aggression, not Lady Liberty!

And Chief, please dispense with the our God is better than their God BS. If you want to start your own Holy War go ahead, but I seem to remember the last Crusade ending 800 years ago :smash:

-spence

Btw, don't forget to thank Charlie Wilson for half the arms the afghanis and Iraqis have.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by spence
[B]The critical thing to keep in mind is that American policy has had a tremendous influence on the ability of radical Islam to take hold.

Oh.....I get it. This our fault? We should be blaming America and Americans first?

Oh.....I get it. This our fault? We should be blaming America and Americans first?


Sad isnt it? And i thought one Micheal Moore was bad enough. Didnt realize there were so many people who had the blame america first attitude. Thise people are friggen murderers and its sad how people try and put the blame on us. They want us ALL dead no matter what!! We can kiss thier asses and try and be all nice but it doesnt matter. They are religious fanatics. And im sorry but MOST of the terrosts now adays are muslims....You cant even try and defend that one. And why do I NEVER hear any of the good muslims ever come out and condemn the terrosts acts???? Makes ya wonder doesnt it:confused: I think people would feel alot better if there was a big movment and some big voices in the Muslim community actively condemning all this crap. Were the F@#^ are they????

If you start with the mentality that all Terrorists are Muslim pretty soon all people are going to hear are that all Muslims are Terrorists and thats just NOT a healthy mindset to be in. We need to stop generalizing a religion and focus on the actual groups that are causing this problem

We all know the groups that are causing the problems in the world right now. Are they not mostly if not all muslims?? Maybe you are seeing something i am not:smash: I tell and see it like it is....Im not gonna try and be all PC to make people feel all warm and fuzzy inside. if the muslim community will not condemn and speek out against all the crap going on in the name of there religion what the hell are people supposed to think?? :confused: Get some friggen sac people and stand up against the scum bags that are killing in the name of your religion.

Originally posted by stripersnipr
Oh.....I get it. This our fault? We should be blaming America and Americans first?
Never said that. Unfortunately the reality of the situation is a little more complicated than some would lead you to believe :huh:

-spence

Originally posted by Skip N
We all know the groups that are causing the problems in the world right now. Are they not mostly if not all muslims?? Maybe you are seeing something i am not:smash: I tell and see it like it is....Im not gonna try and be all PC to make people feel all warm and fuzzy inside. if the muslim community will not condemn and speek out against all the crap going on in the name of there religion what the hell are people supposed to think?? :confused: Get some friggen sac people and stand up against the scum bags that are killing in the name of your religion.

I will agree that most of the terrorist organizations that we are currently having the problems w/ are Muslim Extremists.

I also like to call it like I see it but I prefer to see the whole picture and not just use my Tunnelvision.

There are over 6 billion people in the world which around 2 billion of them are Muslim (Close approximation from the web). I can't believe that over 30% of the world population is either a Terrorist or a Terrorist Sympathiser.

As far as Leaders in the Muslim Community speaking out they have. Mushareff (sorry about the spelling) the leader of Pakistan has been a huge help to us in the war on terror. That is a country that is 97% muslim.

and there are plenty more who have spoken out.

bottom line is I just don't want to see innocent people hurt and I'm pretty sure you don't want to either.

Originally posted by Skip N
Oh.....I get it. This our fault? We should be blaming America and Americans first?


Sad isnt it? And i thought one Micheal Moore was bad enough. Didnt realize there were so many people who had the blame america first attitude. Thise people are friggen murderers and its sad how people try and put the blame on us. They want us ALL dead no matter what!!

What should be amusing in the whole situation is that Charlie Wilson pretty much single handedly massively increased the funding the Mujahadeen got in the early 80's. He was all about the "freedom fighters" and the rest of the groups in the area fighting the Soviets. When shipping stockpiles of old enfield rifles and that garbage didn't work against the communists, Stingers and real weapons were shipped over in massive amounts.

Its all just a case of the dog coming back and biting the owner.
If you want some great insight on what REALLY went on back then, pick up Charlie Wilson's War. Its all about the CIA's massive funding of the Mujahadeen, collapse of the Soviet Union and the rise of militant Islam.

I'm not blaming the US, I'm blaming politicians.

There is a huge gap in this thinking. The US has meddled in dozens of countries affairs and there have not been similar repercussions. Did the US promote genocide in Arab countries? Did the US policies result in massacres of the civilian population? No,
the US supported political factions which would (believed at the time) work in the best interest of the US. This is politics.
There is no reason at all to justify the Islamic fundamentalist terror crusade against the US, other than religion. Bin Laden is not trying to spread the Muslim religion, he is not trying to liberate any people, he is not trying to bring rights to the muslim population. He is trying to rid the world of “infidels”. He is trying to kill as many Americans as possible. Period. Just yesterday I attended a conference on the history of the CIA and 9/11. The instructor was a former CIA advisor. He stated that all terrorist orgs have a goal and have rules. The NRA follows certain guidelines and rules in its terrorist actions in order to further its political objectives. Al Queda’s only objective is to kill Americans. This cause had nothing to do with the past actions of the US, we armed them and made them more dangerous, but that’s not “why” they want to kill us. They view us as a threat to Islam and that as the only reason.

Did he discuss Charlie Wilson's involvement?

Charlie Wilson may have supplied them, but he didnt make them hate us and want to kill us. Their fundamental belief in their religion does that. Is Bin Laden mad that he didnt get the best prices on rocket launchers?