I just saw this film last week, then today i read the transcript of all of Bin Laden's recent video. How many times do you think he saw that movie? He never mentions the movie directly but his points are extracted directly from the film. I believe Moore had every right in this society to make that movie but it makes me sort of sick that the enemy is using this to gauge our opinions and add to his propaganda
Its very disturbing to me that someone that was behind the killing of thousands of American's is commenting on our economy, political system and presidential race.

The thing to keep in mind is that OBL's message is meant more for Islamic communites around the world than it is to scare Americans. I don't think anybody here gives a #$%& what he thinks, we just want to see him dead.

It would be foolish to think any large number of Americans really think like Michael Moore. Personally I think he's a slimeball, but I'd probably agree with a lot of the movie (what's true at least). Haven't seen it though...

-spence

SPence, you should read the whole transcript, OBL is speaking directly to Americans IMHO.
I just feel sort of violated that he thinks he has an understanding of our thoughts and beliefs.

Considering most of his family went to school in the US, and probably him also, I'd say he probably has a reasonably stable idea of what the US is all about, comparitively, I'm sure his view of the US is far better than most American's view of the Middle East.

Likwid, I think you're missing my point.
How bizaree would it have been to read Hitler's comments on a US presidential election? Thats basically what we have from Bin LAden and a lot of his "ammunition" is from Moore's film.

Most of Moore's views in F9/11 were extracted from foreign media.

The fact is that OBL and Moore point to the reasons behind 9/11. There are 2 main reasons why 9/11 happened, our unconditional support of Isreal and thier problems with palestine and the occupation of islamic hly lands by US troops..

What is GWB's explination for 9/11? "the hate us for our freedoms"

that alone is case in point for GWB not telling the american people the real story.. it all spirals out of control from there. If he had come clean as to why 9/11 really happened, perhaps GWB's half baked plans for the war in Iraq might not have had so much support

I think it goes alot deeper than just Israel.

At the end of the Afghan - Russian conflict, we pretty much pulled out of there like we were shot in the butt and left everything hanging post war. Wheeling and dealing over oil I'm sure didn't make anyone over there happy other than the Saudi princes with their lust for expensive automobiles and whatnot. Israel is a huge subject with how many billions we pump into them yearly for what they do to continue and whatnot while we stand around and let stupid people continue doing stupid things and pissing people off.

Politicians lie.

Eb, no Muslim nation lifts a pinky to help Palestine and the US does not occupy ANY mulim holy lands.
We support Isreal as a democratic nation set up after WWII. So do most of our allies.
OBL views the US as a threat to his way of life and he is 100% right. The US govt and capitalism has influenced nearly every world power and culture. Its only a matter of time before MacDonalds is sponsoring the annual pilgrimage to Mecca.
Killing thousands of Americans aint gonna stop it.

And one again you are blaming the conditions that led to 9/11 on GWB, he did nothing to build the political landscape in thr mid-eastand Bin Laden has attacked the US numerous times before GWB was pres.

How many americans did Osma's terror network kill? How many innocent people in Iraq died because of our invasion, 100,000?? Whos worse?

I never said it was GWB's fault in my post only that his explination was that "they hate us for our freedoms" Not once has he ever mentioned anything about the 'real' causes for 9/11.

Obviously i dont believe with negotiating with terrorists, but i do believe that it would make sense to evaluate why they have a problem and at least admit our failures in the muslim world. Killing is not the answer, and in about 6 months, if the deaths continue, almost as many people would have died In Iraq than under Saddam's rule.

I only care about US casualties. If 20 million people from other countries have to die to save American lives, so be it.
The president is bound by Constitution to protect americans. We are not bound by any law to save foreign lives.

Bin Laden and his followers are in the same boat as the American Indian was 200 years ago. They want to exist as they always have.
I'm not proud of what this country did, but progress rolls on, conform or die.

So you think what happened to American Indians was a good thing :confused: :confused: :confused:

-spence

:eek: i'm at a loss for words

Okaaay...it looks like RIJIMMY's true colors are shining through, and frankly, all his credibility has been lost.

No, I dont think its a good thing , but what was the option? Be realistic, how could modern US society and the Native AMerican life co-exist? They cannot.
Same as Islamic Fundmentalists and the modern societies, they cannot co-exist.

Originally posted by RIJIMMY
I only care about US casualties. If 20 million people from other countries have to die to save American lives, so be it.
The president is bound by Constitution to protect americans. We are not bound by any law to save foreign lives.

Over 1000 American soldiers have died in Iraq so far. Whats he protecting again?

An attitude about only american lives mattering is why we our looked down upon all over the world.

Originally posted by RIJIMMY
No, I dont think its a good thing , but what was the option? Be realistic, how could modern US society and the Native AMerican life co-exist? They cannot.
Same as Islamic Fundmentalists and the modern societies, they cannot co-exist.

Funny, Islamic Fundamentalists and others live quite happily in Malaysia.

Try again.

DC, please answer this question...
Be realistic, how could modern US society and the Native AMerican life co-exist?

"Funny, Islamic Fundamentalists and others live quite happily in Malaysia."

GIve it time........

Originally posted by RIJIMMY
"Funny, Islamic Fundamentalists and others live quite happily in Malaysia."

GIve it time........

Give it time? They've all been there forever!
Technologically they've advanced right along with Japan. (see: free trade zone etc.)

Over this past summer I've been able to interact (and go fishing with) 2 Muslims from Malaysia, they're over here helping move lines for Texas Instruments over there. I asked them about how they deal with Fundamentalists over there, and they say they don't really do anything, yeah they're openly and devoutly religious but the religion (muslim) police handle them as they see fit and whatnot. (Note, the 2 muslims were kinda your middle of the road type people... they pray... they eat hilel (sp?) food etc. but they're not crazy... they still live life like a normal christian who goes to church on sunday etc. would) But yes, Malaysia has long had extremely devout muslim groups with crazies and whatnot and never had any huge problems with it.

As an example, their laws are far more strict than we have in the US therefore having a crime rate thats waaay below what we could ever hope for. (Sure, bring up civil rights, but then you might as well bring up Iraq again... ding!)

You're just unable to admit you're wrong.

Originally posted by RIJIMMY
DC, please answer this question...
Be realistic, how could modern US society and the Native AMerican life co-exist?
I'll answer:D
well, if our government had respected all of the original treaties, and not stolen all of thier land and broken our promises, then the indians would have huge tracts of land equal to yellowstone national park if not greater. with that much land they could have lived thier way of live.

What we did to those poor indians makes me ashamed to be an american, and we're still screwing with Indians today.. look at the narragansett indian tribes problems.

I agree...

Native Americans were screwed royally by the Europeans. From a human standpoint it was completely and morally wrong.

No going back now, it is what it is...

To equate this to radical Islam is utterly absurd. Please think before you type :smash:

-spence

In many countries traditional Muslim culture is being replaced by more "western" cultures. Turkey is a perfect example.
Some people adapt to change , some fight it. We still have Amish in this country, I have no desire to fight them and they have no desire to fight the rest of the country.
Im sure fundamentalists muslims can co-exist with other cultures. BUT...if the belief is that this new culture is a threat to their way of life, they can adapt or fight.
Bin Laden has chosen to fight. Look at Saudi Arabia, parts of it look like Vegas ...why? Because of a US infulence.
I don't think Im saying anythig that most of you disagree with, I may just not be saying it correctly.
Look at the Taliban, they made islamic fundamentalist law, banned all other religion......do you think they could co-exist with a western society?

SPence I'll stand by my analogy.
The Natve American culture was over-ran by the expansion of the US (or white) culture. As was the African AMerican Culture, the German Culture, the Italian...etc.
There is no-way the native AMericans could live and hunt they way they did and co-exist with the modern us society. I'd love to beleive there is but it its a utopian idea.
Bin Laden has chosen to fight to stop teh spread of america (or western) culture. He views us as a threat to his way of live (he si right).

How is Turkey a perfect example?
What do they share technologically with the world? US Airbases and donkey carts?

Malaysia is pretty much the semiconductor capital of the world.

The federation of Malaysia is a constitutional monarchy, nominally headed by
the Paramount Ruler or Yang di-Pertuan Agong, customarily referred to as the
king. Kings are elected for 5-year terms from among the nine sultans of the
peninsular Malaysian states


Malaysia is NOT a muslim state.
Dont confuse radicalism with the muslim religion, The Taliban was radiacal, Bin Laden is a radical. Most muslims are not.
remember, Bin Laden beleives most heads of Muslim nations are "infidels".

And whats the #1 religion in Malaysia?

dun dun dun

And when you take full on Radicals into question, you can't discuss the entirety of a religion to base it from.

How would you feel if everyone based christianity off of Jerry Falwell?

Buts its not the MANDATORY religion.

Comes down to freedom of choice.....I don't think ole Bin Laden believes in that,

And getting back to Native Americans, they certainly didn't have a choice now did they?

Lets not forget the missionaries that have sprouted up all over the world funded by US groups.

(uh oh i think im being a flip flop!)

Originally posted by RIJIMMY
No, I dont think its a good thing , but what was the option? Be realistic, how could modern US society and the Native AMerican life co-exist? They cannot.
Same as Islamic Fundmentalists and the modern societies, they cannot co-exist.

And I'm going to quote this again, and repeat, Fundamentalists live in Malaysia. They don't go and blow up the K-L Towers, or the brand new F-1/Superbike track, or airports, or airliners. They live in a more modern than most of the US society. You are wrong.

RIJimmy your blowing my mind with your comments. I've typed like 5 responses so some of your replies and have to delete them:hihi: However, Spence and I were just on the phone having a global test and we both agree that we dont agree with you, so we will have to kill you :laughs:

In my utopian dream of a perfect world, there is no religion and everyone treats people with love and respect. a little comprimise and understanding go a long way.

Eben, it's all part of the master plan. Expand into the western world, expell the native populations and take all the resources. What else were they supposed to do :confused:

This sort of genetic superiority complex is what got the Germans into trouble 80 years ago :rolleyes:

-spence

No they did not have a choice. They fought (and rightly so)
And as I have said before, I dont believe that any radical religion or radical culture has a choice. Remember, I said Bin LAden is right, his culture is threatened. Capitlism has spread to all corners of the world. If the forests where the pygmies live have some value, eventually they will be forced to move or conform. Look at Russia? Czeck Republic, China? Do you think that 30 years ago those governments would ever have beleive that they would have Pepsi and Coca Cola???

My analogy to the Native Americas and Isalmic fundamentalsits is that their way of lives conflict with modern socieites. The takeover of Indian lands was intentional (and dishonest) the take over by western culture is not intentional, but it is happening.

Do I wish the USA was a country of forrests, clean rivers and people living in harmony with the land......of course. But thats not how we developed. We lust for our Van Staals and 150 inch TVs. Is it good?, bad? I have nothing to compare it to. But I beleive that Bin Laden adn his followers beleive it is bad and want to stop it from spreading. I hope my points are somewhat clearer

Originally posted by RIJIMMY

My analogy to the Native Americas and Isalmic fundamentalsits is that their way of lives conflict with modern socieites. The takeover of Indian lands was intentional (and dishonest) the take over by western culture is not intentional, but it is happening.


So because they conflict they have to be destroyed?
Right.

Corruption and greed is what destroyed the soviet union, not mcdonalds.

Originally posted by likwid
And I'm going to quote this again, and repeat, Fundamentalists live in Malaysia. They don't go and blow up the K-L Towers, or the brand new F-1/Superbike track, or airports, or airliners. They live in a more modern than most of the US society. You are wrong.


You are right. They do not kill people for their religion. All my comments are pointed at those who do. Radical Fundmentalist to me, means those that will fight and kill to keep their way of life. If radical muslims co-exist with others in Malaysia I guess in my opinion they are not what I would call radicals.

Jeez, Im not sure why you guys are getting so angry with me, Im not sure I am explaining myslef clearly and I dont think my points are that off base.

Well then, go rally against Jerry Falwell and all his buddies, they want you to beat your wife and run gay people over because they're all wrong.

Originally posted by likwid
So because they conflict they have to be destroyed?
Right.

Corruption and greed is what destroyed the soviet union, not mcdonalds.

No No No No. Im not saying anyone has to be destroyed. I give up. :smash:

Now Native American's are considered a "radical culture" :confused: :confused: :confused:

Perhaps if we go fishing sometime I'll show you my Cherokee Nation card (yes I really have one) and you can give me a TB invested blanket :rolleyes:

-spence

Originally posted by likwid
Well then, go rally against Jerry Falwell and all his buddies, they want you to beat your wife and run gay people over because they're all wrong.


I would.

You would run gay people over :confused: :confused: :confused:

-spence

I think what you're missing is WE screwed up.
WE *used* Pakistan and Afghanistan to fight Communism.
We pissed them off and pushed crap on them.
They aren't coming over here with McAllah's and trying to convert us all to Islam.

Our foreign policy just plain freaking SUCKS. Always has, always will.

Originally posted by RIJIMMY
I would.

Hey, then its settled, you're no better than OBL.

Originally posted by spence
Now Native American's are considered a "radical culture" :confused: :confused: :confused:

Perhaps if we go fishing sometime I'll show you my Cherokee Nation card (yes I really have one) and you can give me a TB invested blanket :rolleyes:

-spence

Forget it Spence. They were/are a culture that could not coexist with an industrialized, growing nation thats lusts for commercial profit.

Originally posted by RIJIMMY


I hope my points are somewhat clearer

yes.. you are making more sense:D


i have 2 questions though...

1- how many Iraqi's were on the planes durring 9/11?

2- How many americans were killed by Iraqi's on US soil or in Iraq after 9/11?



I think someone's been Bushwacked

Originally posted by spence
You would run gay people over :confused: :confused: :confused:

-spence

Cut it out, you know I meant i would rally.

So commercial profit justifies eradication of cultures :confused:

And you would rally for running gay people over :confused:

Now I'm confused...

-spence

Originally posted by Eben
yes.. you are making more sense:D


i have 2 questions though...

1- how many Iraqi's were on the planes durring 9/11?

2- How many americans were killed by Iraqi's on US soil or in Iraq after 9/11?



I think someone's been Bushwacked


- you're changing the sublect, I never mentioned Iraq nor GWB.

Yea, Eben...the topic is now about RIJIMMY running over gay native Americans for profit...

Sorry :laughs: :laughs: :laughs: :D

-spence

Originally posted by spence
Yea, Eben...the topic is now about RIJIMMY running over gay native Americans for profit :laughs: :laughs: :laughs: :D

-spence

don't forget doing it for al... i mean jesus!

Spence play fair:hihi:

Jim i was asking because in your statement that you would want to protect americans lives at all cost, i was just wondering how many iraqi's have killed americans?? the bulk of muslim terrorists killing americans are Saudi and Pakistani... shall we attack them?

Originally posted by spence
So commercial profit justifies eradication of cultures :confused:

-spence


No spence, Im only analyzing what happens. not saying whether its right or wrong.

For example. I lived in San Francisco for 6 years. For teh the first 3 years it was a great multi-cultural city with people with diverse backgrounds. The second 3 was after teh dot-com boom. The city was over run by yuppies, rents went sky high, the "interesting" cultures where pushed out. I moved out, I hated teh change.
Was the change right? Who knows, its just what happened.
Is the invasion of US culture in Saudi Arabia right? I dont know. But OBL is going to fight it and that means he is going to have to hit the US.
Societys have been changing for 10,000 years, Im not sure what " right" is or what progress is.
My whole point is that Bin Laden si trying to fight this change. Many,many others have tried for centuries

I'm pretty sure Bin Laden blowing up the twin towers isn't over Levis and McDonalds.

Originally posted by RIJIMMY
No spence, Im only analyzing what happens. not saying whether its right or wrong.


But your voting in a way that encourages a viscious cycle:smash:

RIJIMMY: the way you speak is as if you only listened to Fox News and didn't actually read the transcript of Osama Bin Laden's latest speech, so here it is:

You, the American people, I talk to you today about the best way to avoid another catastrophe and about war, its reasons and its consequences.

And in that regard, I say to you that security is an important pillar of human life, and that free people do not compromise their security.

Contrary to what [President George W.] Bush says and claims -- that we hate freedom --let him tell us then, "Why did we not attack Sweden?" It is known that those who hate freedom don't have souls with integrity, like the souls of those 19. May the mercy of God be upon them.

We fought with you because we are free, and we don't put up with transgressions. We want to reclaim our nation. As you spoil our security, we will do so to you.

I wonder about you. Although we are ushering the fourth year after 9/11, Bush is still exercising confusion and misleading you and not telling you the true reason. Therefore, the motivations are still there for what happened to be repeated.

And I will talk to you about the reason for those events, and I will be honest with you about the moments the decision was made so that you can ponder. And I tell you, God only knows, that we never had the intentions to destroy the towers.

But after the injustice was so much and we saw transgressions and the coalition between Americans and the Israelis against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it occurred to my mind that we deal with the towers. And these special events that directly and personally affected me go back to 1982 and what happened when America gave permission for Israel to invade Lebanon. And assistance was given by the American sixth fleet.

During those crucial moments, my mind was thinking about many things that are hard to describe. But they produced a feeling to refuse and reject injustice, and I had determination to punish the transgressors.

And as I was looking at those towers that were destroyed in Lebanon, it occurred to me that we have to punish the transgressor with the same -- and that we had to destroy the towers in America so that they taste what we tasted, and they stop killing our women and children.

We found no difficulties in dealing with the Bush administration, because of the similarities of that administration and the regimes in our countries, half of which are run by the military and half of which are run by monarchs. And our experience is vast with them.

And those two kinds are full of arrogance and taking money illegally.

The resemblance started when [former President George H.W.] %$%$%$%$%$ the father, visited the area, when some of our own were impressed by America and were hoping that the visits would affect and influence our countries.

Then, what happened was that he was impressed by the monarchies and the military regimes, and he was jealous of them staying in power for tens of years, embezzling the public money without any accountability. And he moved the tyranny and suppression of freedom to his own country, and they called it the Patriot Act, under the disguise of fighting terrorism. And %$%$%$%$%$ the father, found it good to install his children as governors and leaders.

We agreed with the leader of the group, Mohammed Atta, to perform all attacks within 20 minutes before [President George W.] Bush and his administration were aware of what was going on. And we never knew that the commander-in-chief of the American armed forces would leave 50,000 of his people in the two towers to face those events by themselves when they were in the most urgent need of their leader.

He was more interested in listening to the child's story about the goat rather than worry about what was happening to the towers. So, we had three times the time necessary to accomplish the events.

Your security is not in the hands of [Democratic presidential nominee John] Kerry or Bush or al Qaeda. Your security is in your own hands. Any nation that does not attack us will not be attacked.

Likwid, did you read my initial post??? Jeez I read this in its entirity,, it mirrors a lot of points in Moore's film He clearly says he want to reclaim his land. What land is that???? Quote: We want to reclaim our nation. As you spoil our security, we will do so to you." Huh, think about it, we never invaded any muslim nation prior to Iraq. He means get the infidels out of the holy lands. Stop AMerican influence. Bin Laden has been attacking the US for years, long before GWB was Pres,
do you agree with him??????
Please tell me what your point is?

This transcript bothers me becaue it is an attempt of an enemy to speak directly to us, you and me. I think its pure propaganda to try to appeal to us. Its eery,

I'm hungry.

What's for dinner?

ps: the gov. in Malaysia is Muslim
the PM or whatever he is is Muslim
Its a muslim controlled country.

Im staying outta this one:laughs:

There is nothing to stay out of, my posts were not political at all. I said nothing that is not already known. I did not intend this to raise any arguments, it was merely observation.
It seems most of you agree with OBL's statements. Thats great. I have reads a lot about him and his movement and one of teh major factors of his agresssion against teh US is the approacjh of western culture on the extremeist muslim way of life.
If he could, OBL would turn Sauid Arabiai back to how it was 1000 years ago.

PS, LIKWID, I do not have FOX news on my cable and I have never watched it.

so how about those red sox?
:laughs: