Having a problem with roll control! :af:
A few minnow type (cedar and Pine) plugs I'm working on have way too much drastic roll. They are around 1.75 to 2oz, .125oz shot of lead in the belly and a .25oz tail weight. Tryed a Surfster lip then Pike2 from NJT. Perfect surface wag but WAY too much roll. Should I look to a smaller Danny style lip (narrower surface) or more weight in the middle to anchor it?
Thoughts are to abandon the lighter pine and think heavier wood for this design. This is the same stuff I made Pikies from but have a minimal/tolorable roll. I'm seeing the benifits of the Pikie head already!
Was worse before the tail weight which sudued it a little but still the plug rolls eye up every wag. Even tryed a heavier belly hook and switched to a treble out back...thoughts? :huh:

I don't think you want a tail weight in that plug.:confused: A tail weight in a metal lipped surface swimmer is going to adversely affect the action of that plug. Just my .02 cents...give it a try without the tail weight.;)

Ooops...sorry just re-read your post in regards to the tail weight.:smash: I don't use any tail weight in my swimmers.....I got no roll.:huh:

BFL ........nailed it again! remove the tail weight!
good luck!

My next guess would be the head profile is too narrow on the plug....not enough wood up front and top to give the plug the buoyancy to keep it upright. I can't think of any metal lipped swimmers that have such a narrow nose on them?:confused:

How does it sit in the water when stationary?:confused:

did you float test the blank once it was turned before you drilled it?
tail weight should be minimal and definately less than your belly weight.

with that sharp nose on the plug you will be relying n the lip to give you action, and the action you seem to get is too much roll.
try different lips and try adjusting them.

where is the belly weight? should be at a pivot point.

you could try putting slug behind hook and replacing lip with a NJ pike1 lip. Is the pike2 lip wider than the plug?

the plug profile is fine. You need a different lip. A danny style lip will correct the rolling problem. Belly and or chin slugs might help

I've done some 7" plugs with similar profiles and have used the NJT #1efty lip. The plugs don't have much roll.

out riggers

Originally posted by Slipknot

where is the belly weight? should be at a pivot point.
Slip , where is the pivot point and how do you locate it? Thanks in advance.

I have some Lupo Dannys, and some of the first Gibbs Dannys. They have a wide lip that causes a lot of roll. I caught a lot of fish on them, even with a lot of roll. I have a feeling that the aesthetics of having too much roll may have more of an effect on fishermen than fish. With solid color plugs, even I have a difficult time seeing the roll.

My own experiments with lips, although limited, shows that wider lips cause more roll, narrow lips have less. The newer Gibbs Dannys (since the late 80s) have narrower lips and less roll.

trade plugs with steelhead :D

I'd just paint them a solid color :huh:

lip "A" from Moores

:rotf3:

Honestly I think MAC is onto it. If you look at the plug close you'll see the chin weight and as for the tail weight and removing it? I ADDED it after I saw the roll. The addition of weight seemed to deaden it. Perhaps another slug as was mentioned behind the hook and removing the tail weight.
I'm going to have to do another lip swap. The Surfster lip is a little wider than the plug and the Pikie two is roughly the same as the plug. The Little lefty I have would be too small.
I agree the roll doesn't matter all that much except when you've got a pattern on the plug. All white I'd be ok with it but would still want to know whats causing it for future ref.
Thanks guys. :kewl:

I dont weigh my pikies at all, and I use maple as the wood and they cast fine and have that nice sexy wag to them:D

I can't really tell from the picture what the position of the front loop is. Often, just bending it up some will help.

Hank... I make a very similar plug style, the primary difference being I cut about 3/8" off the nose to give the lip a little more flat surface to support it, but it should still work as you have it. IMO, here's three things to consider:

As DaveP noted, I'd start by taking pliers to the eye loop... first up, almost even with the lip slot bend... test swim it to check the roll, then make slight 1/8" downward adjustments to see if/ where it settles. If, as you move back down, the roll increases then you need to recut your lip slot higher on the face. If up doesn't work, bend it down about 30 degrees from horizontal, and repeat the swim tests, making 1/8' adjustments back towards horizontal. As I visual aid for roll checking on protos, I mark a 2" or so straight line on top of the plug, head to nose, with a red permanent marker.

Second, move your belly hook back another 3/8"-1/2" (slightly behind that knot). Better yet, just remove the hook, but leave everything else as is for the moment. Clamp a hacksaw blade level (and cutting edge up) in a vice with about half the blade sticking out from the vice's edge. Now try to balance your lure on the blade edge. When you find that balance point, roll the plug body slightly back-n-forth while applying a little pressure. The blade will imprint a fine dotted line that marks your balance/pivot point. That's where you want your belly hook.

Then loose your tail weight, and move your chin weight to a point about 1/2" in front of your final belly hook placement.

Bonus point, as Slip hinted, when working with knotty pine you should float the plug before you start making swivel and eye holes, as the uneven grain and changing densities of the wood/knots will affect how it wants to ride in water. If it's drilled out against it's natural floatation tendency, it will have the same effect as sticking lead in the body off center... and the effect is only exaggerated once the lip sets the body in motion.

First of all....priceless information! :btu: :lm:
Second I did the lip and eye bends on site as I was testing. I have a danny lip on it now and will test later. The knot your referring to is the belly lead. I did in fact mark the head with a perm marker. Thats how I determine "tolorable roll" as well.
Your ideas/info have me starting from scratch which at this point seems the best. :gf: :yawn: Hey learn as you go right! All in the fun of testing.
Thanks all for the input!

Try putting the lip slot 1/8 to 1/4 above center on roundnose.. give up on the pikie lip .. sounds like its overpowering the plug the way you want to fish it.. That moores danny lip is nice ,, or just leave it alone and just fish it in quiet bays with very little retrieve the action will probably be just right for that condition ..

Hank heres some rules I have gleaned off of these boards over the years-

Rule #1 danny lips make a plug wiggle and pikie lips make them wobble (cross between wiggle and roll)...

rule #2 a belly weight in the belly makes a plug wiggle like a snake and a weight in the nose makes the plug's tail wiggle... think of it as a pivot point.

Rule#3 belly hook placement will also dictate pivot points to some degree and the bigger the hooks the more action you will loose.

rule#4 nose loop placement dictates if a plug stays on top or wants to dive...

rule #5 a huge tailhook can also deaden the action

rule #6 never weight the tail of a swimmer.

It look like its too much lip for that plug the face is kinda deep an it pushes alot of water.Take it out an sacrifice it to the gods.hamer the top bend flat an bend it bout an 1/8 inch down to make the face shallower.then grind a good 1/8 off the front.Take all the lead out an try it like that.If u got it weighed in the middle it should take 1/8 oz no problem.Then take it to the water an tune it like PA says an make notes when u get it how u like it.or u won't remember.I like to shave the head of the plug just a little this will help flatten it out some also.U may want to try a little weight in the nose to keep the head down.I find it more neccesrry on one hook jobs like that.

Bunch of good info. My suggestion would be to remove the tail and chin weights. You want the weight in the belly behind the hook. Leave the front hook where it is cause you want the hook up front where stripers hit the plug. Get rid of the pikie lip. Danny lip will give you much less roll.

Jigman

The reason for the weight in the first place was because for a Surfcaster this plug was way too light to cast and to fish. The addition of the weight actually helped keep the plug in the water. Before that it sat nearly level and HALF out of the water.
Results after lip swap....I finally got to swap the Pikie lip for a NJT Lefty and liked what I saw.
One final comment reguarding tail weights on swimmers. I'm not a pro plug builder but sometimes on the surf (in particular) you have to make "adjustments" in the way of compromise. If you tryed to cast your average Pike we'll say into even the slightest headwind it'll helecopter into a foulhooked shortcasted mess.
Sometimes it's like trying to cast a balloon! It loads the rod great but you can actually feel the plug drop out of the sky instead of finishing the cast.
Just the slightest tailweight sometimes makes all the difference and a fine compromise between a castable plug and a working plug. Perhaps if I were using a heavier wood Like AYC it would'nt be such an issue with me but for the Cedar I'm using I have to add some "artificial" weight.
I've used Jiggys Pikie and Lifishvt's Pikie and as AYC Pikies they are dead on! Curious thing about that is that both are weighted differently but because of design differences and builder beliefs they both hit the bullseye from different angles!!
That to me is what makes this hobby so great! Basic rules bent to suit yer own needs.
Sorry for the long response, got a LOT of respect for all you guys here. Just felt the need to explain myself a little. :thanks: :wavey:

Glad you got it worked out :) Plenty of different ways to reach the same end. Always interesting to see how other builders approach the same situation. Guess I don't think much about tail weighing a swimmer cause I mostly fish them in calm water. Current definitely makes a difference. So does a lighter wood. I'm learnin new stuff too :happy:

Jigman

BTW, a pikie is not meant to be cast long distance. Lob cast is better. Wing it out there and you risk snapping it off.

Jigman

Happens that most of my casting is conventional anyways. "LOB" is what I do best....:kewl:
Eels and most plugs over 1.75 get the "lob". Broke off plenty of valuable plugs in the past. :af: But you got my point anyways. :bl: