Looks like it went pretty well for the most part. Higher than projected voter turnout and not as much vilolence than anticipated. A really great sight to see alot of Iraqi's dancing in the streets with excitment after they cast thier votes:) Lets hope this is great new start for them all. I will await critizism from the usual suspects on here:D But i think even they will admit it seemed to go better than we all thought (even I had my doubts) We'll see what happens in the coming days but it was pretty heart warming to see the ecitment in the Iraqi's faces voting for the first time. Makes you want rip into the losers in this country who didnt even bother to vote in our last election:mad:

Its not worth the sacrifice that many soldiers have made as I believe it will never remain a democracy. The Iraqis have to want it for themselves and I do not believe that the majority of them want it bad enough to die for it as many of our own have. I believe it is being force fed to them by our government! Why is it up to the United States to spread democracy, even where it is not wanted or welcome? Many of us believe Vietnam was an unjust cause? This fiasco in my opinion is a shameful waste of American life! What will be the final cost?:(

Amen brother I was just saying too my wife last night that when our troops pull out of there it will only be a matter of time before the people are afraid of the insurgents and no longer fight for there freedom, they will not want to die as policeman or soldiers for there democracy and rights of freedom. I hope I am wrong and that a couple of years from now all is well but I dont think so

I hope we are wrong also VF.....I just feel as though, as you said, when we do pull out from there (whenever that will be) there will be a total collapse of the system that so many have died to install. What a shame that would be.:(

I knew it was only a matter of time before people started being negative.....Bigfish, if the US doesnt try and spread democracy then those middle eastern countries will always be terroist nations. Is that what you want? God bless our troops for removing a murdurious dictator and bringing freedom to millions of citizens...They looked pretty happy to be voting in a democrocy to me Bigfish. Lets hope the people stay on the right track and want this. I for one was impressed to see millions of Iraqis face death by going to the polls today. Lets hope this is a good sign of things to come in Iraq and that region:)

How old are you Skip N? Can I get a pair of those rose colored glasses?:rolleyes: You solicited for opinions and I gave you mine....maybe you should read my reply closer, because I did not state that I was against democracy in the middle east, provided they want it! We are making huge sacrifices not only with human life (and that is too much to pay for their short lived fling with "freedom") but financial responsibility is falling square on the shoulders of the United States! My thinking is it will not be too long before you are swayed to my way of thinking....I will save a seat for you Skip.;)

Time will tell... Bigfish hit the nail on the head though.. they have to want this gift we have givin them. Otherwise, something far worse than Saddam could come to life from the rubble.

That is all I am saying Eben....thanks for putting it in a nutshell for the squirrels who can't read!:D

I just re-read my posts and I thought I was being positive yet realistic!:huh:

as the others said- they have to WANT it. they have to be willing to pay the price of freedom, it ain't cheap.

Odds are this will end up just like Vietnam. Once Congress stops sending money to Iraq it will fall apart...

-spence

OMG- i agree with spence!

Anyone know what happened to that $600,000,000 dollars in cash that was discovered when we first invaded Iraq?:confused: :smash: I sure would like to know where that went!

Originally posted by BigFish
That is all I am saying Eben....thanks for putting it in a nutshell for the squirrels who can't read!:D


Shove it Bigfish:af: What pisses me off with people like you is your totall negativty...You are already assuming the freedom is short lived. At least give it a chance before you start assuming it will fail. We have some very positvie news coming out of Iraq and all im saying is give it more than a day before you assume it will fail. Im with you, I have no friggen clue what will happen nor does anyone else. But we are seeing good signs with this succesful election today. Lets just give them a chance to get the Goverment up and running and take it from there before we start assuming it will fail. But then again some on the left want us to fail so it makes them look like they were right. Lets prove those a holes wrong and make this work. And yes it IS up to the Iraqis to make this work and what i saw today gave me some hope they truly want this to work:)

12?:rolleyes:

Skip N...I agree with 99.9% of what you said in your original post. I am hopeful tha the Iraqi people can make the most of this opportunity because it would be such a tremendous waste of lives, (Iraqi and American, British etc.) if it all fell apart. In no way was I demeaning your opimism, but just entering these new waters with a cautious optimism.;) Sorry about the squirrel crack....just having some fun.:D

I also was surprised, and gladly, very pleased at the lack of violence.:)

I know your a solid guy here on SB so dont take my stuff too personal!....Most know i tend to get just a tad fired up sometimes!:D That squirrel thing was kinda funny:D You are being realistic about the future of Iraq and i jumped all over you for being right! I got the sense you were like so many who just want us to fail and keep looking for the negatives and totally overlook the positives. I dont see you as that type. Were in the same boat i guess "hoping" this will work but neither one of have a clue wha'll happen!:D

I disagree about Iraq being like a Vietnam.. Iraq is like Korea... in about a year when we go into Iran... now THAT will be like Vietnam.. you watch, the whole thing makes me sick. :yak:

Skip...do you see what I mean by "cautious optimism"? It is so very politcally unstable in Iraq right now, and the people live with such fear, that all it takes is for a cool breeze to blow and they change from freedom loving people to anti-American throngs dancing in the streets every time an American dies.:( I do hope they can take the ball and run with it over time, but it will take decades to change the face of that region.;)

I know what your saying BF and your totally right on. We can only wait and see what will happen. Lets just hope the Iraqis want this bad enough to make it last. The ball is in thier court now.

Originally posted by Skip N
I got the sense you were like so many who just want us to fail and keep looking for the negatives and totally overlook the positives.

None of use want this to fail...... the failures have already happened at home and the biggest failure is in the whitehouse :hihi:

Oh yea BF....I'm 25 not 12:D ;)

Oh Eben i just calmed down finally....dont get me going again!:D

:rotfl: I was trying... you called it. I miss the SkipN f-bombs :D

I save the f-bombs for special occasions only now:D Maybe you'll get another one one of these days :laughs:

As usual Skip I was less than half right!:laughs:

Originally posted by BigFish
As usual Skip I was less than half right!:laughs:

Hahaha....kinda close though i guess!:D

Anyone know what happened to that $600,000,000 dollars in cash that was discovered when we first invaded Iraq?
Kofi Anan probably got his hands on that as well!:smash:

Hey...If you look at the attrcities(sp) that have happened over there in past years,anything is better...At leasts the U.S. is giving trhe people some hope...From what I have seen the people voting has been a lot..Granted we are watching it thru the U.S. eyes..You have to remember not all Iraqis are terrosrists...:smash:

Nobody here has said anything like that SKD!:confused:

Originally posted by Skip N
I save the f-bombs for special occasions only now:D Maybe you'll get another one one of these days :laughs:

maybe when I take you fishing for bass and I outfish you :bshake:

I'm so happy I'm staying out of this. ;)

Originally posted by spence
Odds are this will end up just like Vietnam. Once Congress stops sending money to Iraq it will fall apart...

-spence

Stupid comments like that are really incredible. Do you have any sense at all? Do you know how many soldiers died in Vietnam? Do you know how many have died in Iraq? If you did, you would not write something as stupid as the quote above. Wow.:smash: :af:

Care to articulate? I don't think you understood what I was saying :read:

-spence

You guys crack me up. Bunch of pessimistic whine bags,"we shouldn't be there, our government is all wrong, our policies suck, another vietnam, we're all doomed" waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.:crying: Listen folks, its simple. Would you rather drive your 4x4 to go fishing or work or would you rather take your daughters tricycle? Do you like to vacation once in awhile, furthur than your own neighborhood? How about visiting relatives, maybe fly somewhere, maybe someplace warm in the winter. Speaking of winter, what heats you home? I know I know... Lets give up the oil and cut all the trees down and heat ourselves with that. But wait, without fuel, how do I get my firewood home. Ah, my horse and buggy? Hell, we don't need cars, we can walk to the market to do our groceries, we don't need to spend countless hours and countless tanks of gas to go fishing or hunting or traveling with our loved ones to some exotic place. We can just stay home forever. Why waste the fuel. Hell, we don't need it! We can just crawl into our caves, burn sticks and eat grocery meats and fish and be happy forever. We don't need goods, hell it cost money(fuel) to get this stuff back and forth. Its a waste! Let the middle east have all to themselves, afterall, they're going to destabilize the world markets anyways because they're just a bunch of you-know-whats. Yes folks, its about the oil and keeping the world markets stable. I've got good friends who are fighting and working in Iraq and Afganistan and they are proud to there, they(99%) agree with our countries policy and they see themselves as making a difference. If the policies were decided and implememted by some of you whinebags, then we truly could revert back to our caves.

Here is a picture of kids in a rebuilt mud school in southern Iraq. I hope peace comes for their sake:

Better to be a pessamistic whine bag than allow myself to be spoonfed a bowl of bullshyte and smile like it's ice cream :rolleyes:

-spence

Hey Outfished.. I hope you sleep well at night knowing that hundreds of american soldiers and tens of thousands of Iraqi's died so you could save some $$ at the gas station.

Did somebody call for an f-bomb?

I've got a daisy cutter of an f-bomb to drop. :devil:

Spence may be a "poser".....but I agree with him!;) Pass the chocolate sauce and whip cream please....this ice cream tastes funny!:rolleyes:

Pessimism is a key ingredient of defeat

Anyone have a family member or a friend over there?
I've got a nephew in the Marines over there.
Every time we hear about a soldiers death or another helicopter crash, we hold our breath wondering:mad:

My sons best friend is over there...Hope all is well...Another friend just got home..The stories he has told just makes you go :rolleyes: I hope they all come home safe..
BF..Did I say anyone had said that??:smash:

Nothing pisses me off more than the notion that we sent our best men and women to war for political reasons, underequiped and without a plan to secure the country :af:

The reason so many people sound so pessamistic is that blind and reckless optimisim is what got us into this mess. Mistakes should be noted and corrected.Those who screwed up should be held to account, not given medals and promotions.

The same bunch of arrogant, incompetent fools that botched Iraq are now planning more actions. And you want me to be optimistic :confused:

Everybody wants the troops home safe, but this is no reason to brush aside very real problems with this Administration.

-spence

Has anyone else noticed that when something big is happening in the world like today's news about the Iraqi election, the B ush administration sneeks something domestic under the radar?? today they anounced they are cutting back on Pell grants.. I am outraged about this. :af:


Iraq...the grand distraction in the fleecing of the american society

Originally posted by spence
Care to articulate? I don't think you understood what I was saying :read:

-spence

I think I "articulated" exactly what I intended. You made a stupid comment comparing Iraq to Vietman and I called you on it. Pretty simple huh?

There are numerous similarities between Iraq and Vietnam. This is not to say that Iraq is Vietnam, but that a mountain of "lessons learned" are not being leveraged.

If you're unable to grasp any similarities, I'd say you're not qualified to label my comment as "stupid". Perhaps you could provide some additional detail to bolster your credibility.

-spence

How about # of deaths? Type of combat? Conditions of the country involved? All make Iraq and Vietnam worlds apart and totally dis-similar.

Cod Hunter....seems like you are doing more "head hunting" than anything else on this thread. Spence simply made a parallel comparison to the Governmental interests in the Iraq situaion and the Vietnam situation. He was not comparing loss of life, type of combat or the condition of the countries! As far as peoples opinions here....they are just that, like them or not! One thing I learned a long time ago was if you want your opinion respected by others, you have to learn to respect the opinions of others! You don't have to agree with them, and you don't need to jump in here and start tearing someone down because they have an opinion.:mad:

Spence also did not know you had the market cornered on sympathies regarding the Vietnam War! You seem like an intelligent guy, talk to Spence about the differences between the two and shed some light from what you may know, feel or have experienced.;)

Not tearing anyone down BF. He compared Iraq to Vietnam. then tried to justify it. My opinion is that is one of the silliest things I have ever read. I believe he is just using that ridiculous comparison to take a shot at our President. That's my opinion.

Fair enough Cod Hunter.;) However, I don't believe he was comparing the catastrophic numbers of dead and wounded from the Vietnam War with the numbers from this conflict. Lets all agree to hope that it does end soon. You would think by now, mankind would have figured out what a waste war is!:smash:

I tell you though, sometimes we can't even have a discussion on this site without someone drawing down on someone else.:laughs:

they found oils in new hampshire . some guy was smoking it

BF, I certainly agree, and hope and pray, that it ends soon and that all of our soldiers return home safely.

Everybody want's the mission complete and our troops home asap.

My comment was specifically in context with funding for Iraq. There's going to come a time when Congress is going to say "no more". Eventually we will be asked to leave, and if Iraq doesn't have the full ability to finance and provide security, the country will fall apart. Given how things have gone so far, Iraq is a very long way from providing adequate security.

And Cod, I don't need to take cheap shots at Buhs. He's running a terrible Administration, there's plenty of substance to attack :af:

-spence

Originally posted by BigFish
You would think by now, mankind would have figured out what a waste war is!:smash:


Whats that Saying "Nobody appreciates peace more than a Soldier"

Originally posted by BigFish
You would think by now, mankind would have figured out what a waste war is!:smash:



tell that to the millions of chinese massacered by the japanese in the 30's and 40's, the millions of Jews and gypsies massacared by the Nazis. Without war, the suffering would have continued. Mankind will never live in peace, we are not peacful creatures, we all want the best for our familes and loved ones and the best of things is limited thus we kill for them.

I'll make one comment on the Iraq elections, you all say the Irauqi's need to "want" a democratic socitey. Well, despite threats of violence, these people, men and women had the courage to actually go out there and vote, millions of them!. Some of them were killed for trying. How many lazy Americans would die trying to vote? Did the Japanese post WW2 want a democratic socitey? Germans? No, it was thrust upon them and now look, they are key US partners and live in thriving nations. Growth is painful, lets hope SPence and others are wrong and this country can grow and thrive with a free people.

he's an action figure doll....and he wants to live....

heres the picture:

Whether you approve or disapprove of our involvement in Iraq, take 2 minutes and read this article from a well known liberal columnist that writes for the Chicago Sun-Times.

"But after watching Sunday's election in Iraq and seeing the first clear sign that freedom really may mean something to the Iraqi people, you have to be asking yourself: What if it turns out %$%$%$%$ was right, and we were wrong?"

http://www.suntimes.com/output/brown/cst-nws-brown01.html

and for the most part i agree with the concept....

what i have a hard time accepting and or believing is that:

it takes living candidates to govern the people and most of

them are being murdered as soon as they got the JOB.

but then again , if you look back at our own american

history there was a very volatile time where people we're

killed just for choosing sides

and afterwards it took many many years for peace to evolve.:rolleyes:

"What if it turns out %$%$%$%$ was right, and we were wrong?"


Can someone tell me why we are not aloud to say the Presidents name on this site? why the hell does it always get blocked out? This is a wondeful site for some good discusssion but who's stupid idea was this to black out W's name on here? Must be a liberal run website:smash: This insults me.

CONGRATULATIONS!!!

You just managed to piss off the last guy that was willing to listen to you here...:D









and before you go off on a tangent it was just a joke.

Skip, I believe when the GWB vs JFK talk was out of control, the names were censored in order to curb the postings. I think if I type the other guys name: John %$%$%$%$%$
It get edited too. lets see...

Yup, it does. ;)

OH my God ! Now we have John Kennedy fighting with George Washington . Must be a HyAnnis thing


john put those 2 last names in the do not post list . Do to too many heated discussions . That only leads to fights .



All Polititions are liars !

Originally posted by Skip N
"What if it turns out %$%$%$%$ was right, and we were wrong?"


Can someone tell me why we are not aloud to say the Presidents name on this site? why the hell does it always get blocked out? This is a wondeful site for some good discusssion but who's stupid idea was this to black out W's name on here? Must be a liberal run website:smash: This insults me.

It was my stupid idea to reduce the constant bickering from knuckle heads like you and Spence from turning a fishing site into a Left -v- Right rhetoric match (it apllies to JFK Senator as well). I was apparently worn about that. I also thought that maybe, just maybe, people from the opposing sides on these issues could DISCUSS these issues and support their points with fact instead of partlyline bullsheize. And the discssion isn't good - I feel like I'm listening to that clown Rush or listening to Hillary - BOTH wastes of the human gene pool.... Collin Powell for President...

You know people, and I'm going to pick on Spence and Skip in particular but this applies to more than a few people here. I would gladly have a brew or wet a line with you guys but I have seen little objective discourse between most of you (actually, Spence often starts off trying to be a little objective before the unraveling).

You know what is funny? We moderate independants generally shake our heads or laugh you ultra lefties and ultra rightys :rolleyes: :laughs:

b u s h
b u s h
b u s h
b u s h
b u s h
b u s h
b u s h
b u s h
b u s h
b u s h
b u s h
b u s h
b u s h
b u s h
b u s h
b u s h

:happy:

... (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=political+debate+forums)

moderate independant then...... yeah thats the ticket.....

right on John...i'll drink to That! :gu: :cheers:

Its not worth the sacrifice that many soldiers have made as I believe it will never remain a democracy. The Iraqis have to want it for themselves and I do not believe that the majority of them want it bad enough to die for it as many of our own have. I believe it is being force fed to them by our government! Why is it up to the United States to spread democracy, even where it is not wanted or welcome?

As a fishing website, I generally agree that political debate belongs elsewhere. However, as an Iraq War veteran, I have to respond to the above quoted statement. I'll begin by describing how I viewed the events of election day.
I'll be the first to admit that I was less than optimistic about how the elections would unfold. Thankfully, I was wrong. The Iraqi people made it quite clear how much the freedom to vote means to them. While many Americans can't be bothered, these brave people risked their lives, emerged from the sheltered existence of their home lives, (something they have not been able to do in decades) and went to great lengths to cast their votes. Some walked 10-20 miles or more. I thought of the Iraqi Police, albeit they lacked training and discipline but they made themselves targets by working with us, and were damn proud to do so. I thought of the brave translators who worked for us. I thought of the informants who risked their lives to give us intel. In short, watching this election had a profound effect on me because it validated the efforts of those of us who served. It validated the efforts of the thousands of troops in Iraq now and those headed there. Most importantly, and this is something that most of you here can't fully appreciate; It validates the efforts of those who never came home. I know them by name and I know them by face and I always will.
A democracy in Iraq is important to every American. It goes beyond oil and the ability to have affordable SUVs. A self sustaining democracy is a tall order to fill and the Iraqi people have a long uphill battle ahead of them. In this election they have delivered a critical message that they are willing to work for it. This is a noble effort, discouraging at times, but nevertheless a noble effort.
Finally, I think many people, regardless of whether or not they support our troops, don't realize how damaging it is to suggest that this effort is not worth the sacrifice made by our armed forces. They serve to spread democracy, which in turn helps preserve the safety, security, and stability both at home and abroad, which makes our way of life possible.

DR,
Well Said! :claps:

I second that, well said DRMatus.

That was VERY welll said

:claps: Very well said.

Also, Thank you.....................:cheers:

You ever fish up in the Mass area? I have to wet a line with you at some point.

A fishing board is the perfect place to discuss politics. Where else can such a diverse group of people come together and share opinions? Nobody is forced to open a thread with an obvious subject...

I think it's very difficult to say a war isn't "worth it" while it's happening. History alone will determine this...

There was certianly a parallel here to Vietnam, a war of idiology which divided the country at the time. I don't need to add that Vietnam doesn't have a good place in history for obvious reasons. My hope is that Iraq is viewed much better, it will have to be a success of the Iraqi people.

You really do have to separate the troops from the civilian leadership as they are not one in the same. This is the main message of K33ry's Vietnam protests, it was true then and it's true today.

The Generals gave much warning about troop strength and security before the invasion which fell on deaf civilian ears. The legal framework which allowed abuse and toruture in Baghram, Abu Grahib and Gitmo was drafted by civilians not Generals.

It was civilian leadership that ordered our troops to not deter looting after the war, that disbanded the Iraqi army and that has controlled the Billions in mismanaged contracts.

Our troops really have nothing to do with any of this. They do as they're told, do the best job possible and try to get home alive. Put in that position I would behave exactly the same.

Regarding the recent vote.

Congress didn't give Buhs approval to wage war in the name of Liberty or Democracy, in fact the conditions were very specific. 1) Prove Saddam has WMD and 2) prove Saddam is teamed up with al Qaida.

Now we know that not only were both items completely false, but the bi-partisan Senate panel has largely concluded the evidence was never there to justify the Administration's claims in the first place. Congress was duped, led to war in a blur of overstated claims, reckless optimisim and 9/11 induced emotion.

This should disturb all Americans deeply, regardless of whether Iraq is "worth it" or not.

-spence

The liberals have a new attack plan. It is a riot watching them discuss the war now, post election. God is mentioned at every turn. All of a sudden, God and faith are HUGE parts of the Democratic agenda. (since in their eyes" God" lost the election for them). Also there is a huge "support the troops" movement. The Barabar Boxers and Nancy Pelosis of the world assail the charachter of anyone associated with war planning or the B U S H cabinet, yet begin and end every tirade with, "I support the troops."

I personally don't think you can "support the troops" while attacking their commander in chief, attacking his staff, attacking their policy and ideology, railing against their presence in the area of combat, lamenting the loss of innocents, claiming they are doing their job under false pretenses, and minimizing the importance of the role they are playing.

Yes, somehow Buhs appologists think it's unreasonable for Congress to expect a principal war architect to reconcile their statements and behavior. How demanding and partisan of them :rolleyes:

Perhaps we would be better off as a Democratic nation if we just let our leaders act with impunity. There's zero chance they are not being honest and open with the American people right?

Blindly supporting a President regardless of their actions is not logical nor American. The notion that I personally can't support our troops while critisizing their leadership is patently absurd partisan rhetoric designed to insulate one from any reality.

God forbid we accept our mistakes and hold those where accountable when necessary :smash:

-spence