IS A JOKE!!!
Both Marino and Steve Young inducted in the same year, and both in 1st year they are eligible!!!
Marino yes!
Young NO!!! maybe about 5 years from now, but he shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Marino!!!:af:

Why?:confused: It is not a comparison, just a tribute to their own personal career achievements!

Rings speak volumes.

Do you think Belichick deserves to make it regardless of tomorrows outcome?

I do.

Young's official HOF bio:

Quarterback Steve Young entered the National Football League through the 1984 supplemental draft. After spending two seasons in the ill-fated United States Football League, the consensus All-America from Brigham Young was selected by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in first round of the special draft.

In 1987, Young was traded to the San Francisco 49ers where he served as the backup to Hall of Famer Joe Montana. After seeing limited action in his first four seasons with the 49ers, Young stepped into the starting role in 1991 after Montana suffered an injury. Young wasted little time in taking command of the 49ers offense. Despite a knee injury that forced him out of five games that season, Young passed for 2,517 yards and 17 touchdowns to post a league high 101.8 passer rating – the first of four straight passing titles. Young added two more passing titles in 1996 and 1997 to tie him with the legendary Sammy Baugh as the only quarterbacks in history to win six NFL passing crowns.

His finest season came in 1994 when he posted a then-record 112.8 passer rating by completing 324 of 461 passes for 3,969 yards and 35 touchdowns. Young also added seven rushing touchdowns as he guided the 49ers to a NFC West title with a 13-3 record. The team then coasted through the post-season. In the NFC championship game that year, Young threw two touchdowns and rushed for one as the 49ers downed the Dallas Cowboys 38-28. He topped off the year with an incredible performance in San Francisco 's 49-26 win over the San Diego Chargers in Super Bowl XXIX. Young passed for 325 yards and threw a Super Bowl record six touchdowns. He also was the game's leading rusher with 49 yards on five carries. For his efforts, he was named the Super Bowl Most Valuable Player.

During his NFL career, the left-hander threw for 3,000 or more yards six times and had 20 or more touchdown passes in a season five times, and posted a passer rating of 100 or higher six times. Aside from his passing ability, Young was a constant threat as a runner. He ran for 4,239 yards and scored 43 rushing touchdowns.

Young, one of the most accurate passers in league history, was named All-Pro in 1992, 1993, 1994, and 1998 and earned All-NFC honors three times. The two-time league MVP also was selected to the Pro Bowl seven times.


Can't argue with the choice--altho I also think Ken Stabler belongs there, Ronnie.

That about says it all!;) Ron, your nuts if you think Marino is all that much better than Young, if he is even better at all!:smash:

Originally posted by Mike P
Young's official HOF bio:

Quarterback Steve Young entered the National Football League through the 1984 supplemental draft. After spending two seasons in the ill-fated United States Football League, the consensus All-America from Brigham Young was selected by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in first round of the special draft.

In 1987, Young was traded to the San Francisco 49ers where he served as the backup to Hall of Famer Joe Montana. After seeing limited action in his first four seasons with the 49ers, Young stepped into the starting role in 1991 after Montana suffered an injury. Young wasted little time in taking command of the 49ers offense. Despite a knee injury that forced him out of five games that season, Young passed for 2,517 yards and 17 touchdowns to post a league high 101.8 passer rating – the first of four straight passing titles. Young added two more passing titles in 1996 and 1997 to tie him with the legendary Sammy Baugh as the only quarterbacks in history to win six NFL passing crowns.

His finest season came in 1994 when he posted a then-record 112.8 passer rating by completing 324 of 461 passes for 3,969 yards and 35 touchdowns. Young also added seven rushing touchdowns as he guided the 49ers to a NFC West title with a 13-3 record. The team then coasted through the post-season. In the NFC championship game that year, Young threw two touchdowns and rushed for one as the 49ers downed the Dallas Cowboys 38-28. He topped off the year with an incredible performance in San Francisco 's 49-26 win over the San Diego Chargers in Super Bowl XXIX. Young passed for 325 yards and threw a Super Bowl record six touchdowns. He also was the game's leading rusher with 49 yards on five carries. For his efforts, he was named the Super Bowl Most Valuable Player.

During his NFL career, the left-hander threw for 3,000 or more yards six times and had 20 or more touchdown passes in a season five times, and posted a passer rating of 100 or higher six times. Aside from his passing ability, Young was a constant threat as a runner. He ran for 4,239 yards and scored 43 rushing touchdowns.

Young, one of the most accurate passers in league history, was named All-Pro in 1992, 1993, 1994, and 1998 and earned All-NFC honors three times. The two-time league MVP also was selected to the Pro Bowl seven times.


Can't argue with the choice--altho I also think Ken Stabler belongs there, Ronnie.


I think that foolball is the ultamate TEAM game, and no 1 player can win by himself!!! (as in Marino and Manning)
When a team wins the Quarterback gets too much of the credit and too much blame when they loose. It's not possible for a quarterback to throw, bloch, catch and run all at once
The hall of fame SHOULD the place where the recognise the player for what he is and not for what the team helped him accomplish!!! (as in guys like Bob Greise )
I'm NOT saying that Young is not a fall of famer,
Just Not in the same league as Marino, thus should NOT be voted in for at least a few more seasons.
You have to factor in that he stunk it up for a few years with a sucky Tampa team, and then was a back up to montana for 4 years.
So what does that give him? 5 or 6 great years and about the same number of un/hall of fame years!!!

Don't get me started about the origional "Mr. Cool under pressure" Ken Stabler , not in the hall!!!:af:

Originally posted by BigFish
That about says it all!;) Ron, your nuts if you think Marino is all that much better than Young, if he is even better at all!:smash:
Larry,
Marino
over 61 thousand yards &
420 touchdowns
Young
33124 yards
232 touchdowns
HOW CAN YOU ARGUE WITH THOSE NUMBERS!!!:smash:
I suppose you're going to say that Clayton & Duper compare to Rice, Taylor, Craig, TE Jones, Rathman, and Terrell Owens for a few seasons:smash:
I'll bet you think the AFC east use to be a cake walk compared to the NFC west also!!!:smash:

2 different players Ron...Marino was fortunate to play with one team and start his whole career....too bad Young did not have the same good fortune, he might have had similar numbers. He has got ring though and MVP both Superbowl and league! Marino don't got those and I know for a fact he would trade all of his records for one ring....that speaks volumes!:D

Basically Ron...you say tomato and I say......your wrong.:laughs:

Originally posted by BigFish
2 different players Ron...Marino was fortunate to play with one team and start his whole career....too bad Young did not have the same good fortune, he might have had similar numbers. He has got ring though and MVP both Superbowl and league! Marino don't got those and I know for a fact he would trade all of his records for one ring....that speaks volumes!:D

Basically Ron...you say tomato and I say......your wrong.:laughs:

Larry,
I'm going to loan you a fresh air resporator for when you,re s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g up all those wood chips and paint vapors from making you're plugs!!!:laughs:

:laughs:

Originally posted by Raider Ronnie
Larry,
I'm going to loan you a fresh air resporator for when you,re s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g up all those wood chips and paint vapors from making you're plugs!!!:laughs:

:laughs: :laughs:

Ronnie--if Marino wasn't on the same ballot, there wouldn't be any argument about Young.

As I understand the rules---a minimum of two players have to be elected, and a maximum of 6 can go in every year (and I don't think the Veterans Committee's candidates can be counted among the two madatories). You could make a case for Michael Irvin or LC Greenwood, I guess. Derrick Thomas? Tragic story but he doesn't have the career stats--he's sort of the Thurman Munson of football when it comes to the HOF--you don't get extra credit for a tragic, premature death. Harry Carson (who IMO should be in) sort of shot himself in the foot and alienated the voters. So, I guess the second person who had to be elected, by rule, came down to Young, Greenwood or Irvin. Irvin's off the field baggage probably hurt him, and there are 9 other Steelers from those great 70s teams already in Canton, so Greenwood probably has to wait another year or two.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike P
[B]Ronnie--if Marino wasn't on the same ballot, there wouldn't be any argument about Young

Mike,
I agree!!!
Just as I knew that once AGAIN Ken Stabler would Not get in with Marino and Young on the ballot , all being finalist !

Once again Ron is confusing his unending disappointment in the fact that if the Raiders are not involved, it must be a farce. Because Stabler did not get in you think Young is undeserving?:smash:

Stabler wasn't among the 15 finalists this year. He was last passed over in 2003. The only other years he made the cut were 1990 and 1991.

Here's the list of the 15 finalists this year--the number after the name indicates the number of times they've been on the ballot as finalists:

Harry Carson 6
Richard Dent 2
Benny Friedman
L.C. Greenwood 5
Russ Grimm
Claude Humphrey 2
Michael Irvin
Bob Kuechenberg 4
Dan Marino
Art Monk 5
Fritz Pollard
Derrick Thomas
Roger Wehrli
George Young 3
Steve Young

Originally posted by BigFish
Once again Ron is confusing his unending disappointment in the fact that if the Raiders are not involved, it must be a farce. Because Stabler did not get in you think Young is undeserving?:smash:

Larry,
How is that Mike P gets my point and you don't?
I've got a few exhaust fans hanging around besides the resporator !!!
You been turning pressure treated plugs with no dust mask lately?:smash:

Why do you think Stabler deserves to be enshrined? I just checked his stats....so what! Almost 28,000 yards passing, 194 touchdowns......so! Football is polluted with QB's with stats like that!:huh:

Your blood pressure rising now Ron?;)

Originally posted by BigFish
Why do you think Stabler deserves to be enshrined? I just checked his stats....so what! Almost 28,000 yards passing, 194 touchdowns......so! Football is polluted with QB's with stats like that!:huh:

Your blood pressure rising now Ron?;)

Seing that you checked his stats,
Now go and check the other quarterbacks of his era that are in,
Like Namath, Greise, to name a few!!!
You also overlooked that Stabler played mostly 14 game seasons:smash:

I think Steve Grogan should be in the Hall of Fame if Stabler gets in! Grogans numbers are just a hair below Stablers.....just a hair! Almost 27,000 yards passing, 182 touchdowns.:smash: Your a Raider homer Ron its plain to see! If it ain't black and silver it don't count right?:rolleyes:

Grogan played 14 game seasons too! :rolleyes:

Stabler deserves to go in on the intangibles--he was the best late game QB of that era. He was Elway before there was an Elway. No one led the 2 minute offense better than the Snake in that era. You knew if you put the ball in his hands at the end of the game, he'd engineer a drive to get the Raiders in position to win.

Compare Harry Carson's career stats to Mike Singletary's and tell me why Singletary's in and Carson isn't :confused:

Oh...I forgot the "intangible" category that the voters use!:smash:

Somebody throw a cold bucket of water over Ron...I think he must have passed out! Ron are you breathing? Ron......

Breath Ron...breath!:D

Ron is busy cutting and pasting again!:laughs:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike P
[B]Stabler deserves to go in on the intangibles--he was the best late game QB of that era. He was Elway before there was an Elway. No one led the 2 minute offense better than the Snake in that era. You knew if you put the ball in his hands at the end of the game, he'd engineer a drive to get the Raiders in position to win.

Thatks Mike!!!
Just to add, he played most of the AFC championship games in the 70s!!!
Here you go Larry,
Namath 27000 yards 173 td in because of a Guarantee
Bob Griese 2500 yards 192 td in because he could hand off to his Great power running game and the Dolphins perfectseason!!!

Grogan underachieved, Larry. Look at the talent on the Pats back then. O-line of Gray, Hannah, Lenkaitis, Sam Adams and Jordan. Stanley Morgan, "All World" Francis, Sam Cunningham. Sugar Bear Hamilton, Julius Adams, Tony McGee, Steve Nelson, Mike Haynes, Clayborn, Fox on defense. They should have had 2 or 3 SBs in the late 70s. The last game I saw in person at Foxboro was the 78 play-off against Bum Phillip's Oilers. Grogan had a miserable second half. That was a game they should have won by 3 touchdowns. Regardsless of the fiasco around Chuckles Fairbanks. HOF QBs don't lose their starting roles to the likes of Champagne Tony Eason ;)

Every NFL coach back then also knew Grogan's glaring weakness--he never looked beyond his primary reciever on any play.

Ronnie-there's also an intangible with Namath---he legitimized the AFL and made the merger possible.

Sounds like Drew Bledsoes problem too Mike....can't look past his primary. I was only using Grogan as a yardstick....I don't think he belongs in any more than I think Namath belongs in and Ron I could not agree more with you that Namath is in on a guarantee! Thats all he ever did! How many of those AFC Championship games did Stabler win Ron? And how many was he in? His numbers for his career were slightly above average at best! It will be those "intangibles" that eventually get him in the hall and thats it!

Originally posted by Mike P
Ronnie-there's also an intangible with Namath---he legitimized the AFL and made the merger possible.

Al Davis was as much responsible for the merger

Mike...pack up that "intangible" thing...if they are voting players into Halls of Fame based on intangibles, then they are not voting enough players into the Halls of Fame.

Mike said "legitimized" Ron....that means he made it palatable by giving the AFL teeth by winning Superbowl 3 against the Chiefs as they were the underdog AFL and had no business being there until Namath shot his mouth off and lucked out!;)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BigFish
[B]Sounds like Drew Bledsoes problem too Mike....can't look past his primary. I was only using Grogan as a yardstick....I don't think he belongs in any more than I think Namath belongs in and Ron I could not agree more with you that Namath is in on a guarantee! Thats all he ever did! How many of those AFC Championship games did Stabler win Ron?
How many can you win when the Dolphins and Steelers were there every year.
The hall of fame is filled with players from Those Dolphins and Steelers teams.

From the business end, yes. Namath gave the AFL teams credibility and showed they could play with the big boys. All of a sudden, the AFL wasn't a minor league any longer. It was a lot easier to convince the Steelers, Colts and Browns to be realigned to the AFC to balance out scheduling once Namath put the AFL teams on parity. Lenny Dawson helped to cement it with the Chiefs the next year, true, but Namath got most of the credit.

BTW, much of what he did in that game was hand off to his power back (Matt Snell) too ;) Little trivia--Namath is the only QB to win a SB without throwing a TD pass.

Ron, you have an excuse for everything....why the Raiders and Stabler did not win more, why the Patriots win so much these days! All these excuses you have are just your way of making what these teams do look cheap and lucky instead of deserving and hard-earned.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by BigFish
Mike said "legitimized" Ron....that means he made it palatable by giving the AFL teeth by winning Superbowl 3 against the Chiefs as they were the underdog AFL and had no business being there until Namath shot his mouth off and lucked out!;)

Larry,
Go back and watch that super bowl.
Buddy Ryan's defense won that superbowl, Not Namath!!!

I type too freakin' slow to keep up with you two :D

Like it or not, Larry, intangibles are part of the equation. I personally think that Bob Griese was one of the most overrated QBs of all time. I well remember SB 6 where Bob Lilly had him running for his life most of the game. Rings also count for the Hall, tho, and he has 2.

Wow Mike....that is a telling stat and one I was unaware of! Namath did not throw a score in that Superbowl? Wow! Namath was truely way over rated but he can drink most other QB's under the table!:gu: :buds:

Ron...the fact that Stabler and the Raiders could not get by teams like Miami and Pittsburg tells you right there that they and he were not on par with the better teams in football at the time...even more so it tells me, by what you said, that the Raiders must have gotten lucky that one time they did win the Superbowl in the 70's!:D

Ron...wear that respirator when you are in the spray booth. The MSDS shows that the fumes can cause brain damage.:laughs:

I don't agree with the intangible thing Mike but I agree with the ring theory....they almost guarantee you a place in the Hall. Stabler will get in based on that fact and so will Doug Williams!:laughs:

Originally posted by BigFish
Wow Mike....that is a telling stat and one I was unaware of! Namath did not throw a score in that Superbowl? Wow! Namath was truely way over rated but he can drink most other QB's under the table!:gu: :buds:

Ron...the fact that Stabler and the Raiders could not get by teams like Miami and Pittsburg tells you right there that they and he were not on par with the better teams in football at the time...even more so it tells me, by what you said, that the Raiders must have gotten lucky that one time they did win the Superbowl in the 70's!:D

Ron...wear that respirator when you are in the spray booth. The MSDS shows that the fumes can cause brain damage.:laughs:
I very rarely Paint Larry!!!

The Jets D pretty much shut down Morrall, but Namath deserves a lot of credit for controlling the game and the clock, and keeping the ball out of Baltimore's hands for much of that game. Remember, back then, QBs called their own plays. Namath was 17/28 and 206 yards, a lot of them short passes to Snell and Mathis out of the backfield, or to George Sauer on short outs. Don Maynard didn't have a single catch the whole game--they used him as a decoy. The AFL was supposedly the home of the mad bombers, put it up 50 times a game and win 52-49 ;)

Time of Possession NYJ 36:10 Bal 23:50

Snell had 30 carries for 121 yards to go with his receptions.

The Jets D picked Morrall 3 times, and Unitas once.

And yes, a little known fact, Buddy Ryan was one of Weeb Ewbank's assistants. They weren't "co-ordinators" back then---just assistant coaches.

So Mike.
Back to my origional point the Bigfish can't see to comprehend.
Do you think Steve Young is a 1st ballot hall of famer when Marino is in the same year?

Looking at who else was on this year's ballot---yup. It's not like baseball where you can have only one guy elected--or even zero from time to time. You have to elect a minimum of three (not two as I originally stated) every year. Young has better credentials than the rest of the field, much as I love Harry Carson.

Is there a bias in favor of QBs in the Hall---betcha ass there is. 21 QBs as opposed to 24 RBs (most teams have two of them, ya know ;) ) 19 wideouts of which most teams have two. Only 6 tight ends. And 19 DBs, bearing in mind that most teams field 4.

Look at it this way--if Ted Williams and Al Kaline became eligible for baseball's Hall the same year, would you deny Kaline just because Teddy Ballgame was on the ballot? Kaline had the stats to make it, he's in. You're not comparing them head to head, you're recognizing the respective achievements of both.

I would have picked Art Monk!!!

Mike....that was my point several posts ago...but Ron could not see that then and probably won't see it now because Stabler did not make it in and he seems blinded by that fact, not the fact that they are not being compared one to the other but simply, once again, being honored for their individual achievements.:D

You could pick as many as 6.

I would have picked Richard Dent, as I thought he was a better DE than his Bears teammate Dan Hampton, who's already in Canton.

Harry Carson.

Monk over Irvin.

Greenwood was as valuable to the Steel Curtain as Mean Joe.

Plus Marino and Young, of course.

There's my 6.

Honoring old-timers like Fritz Pollard and Benny Friedman is nice, but they should be in a separate voting category like baseball. I thought they were, but apparenly they're not. How the voters can pass on the qualifications of players they never saw is beyond me. And even tho I'm a Giants fan, I never heard of Benny Friedman before today :huh:

Originally posted by Mike P
You could pick as many as 6.

I would have picked Richard Dent, as I thought he was a better DE than his Bears teammate Dan Hampton, who's already in Canton.

Harry Carson.

Monk over Irvin.

Greenwood was as valuable to the Steel Curtain as Mean Joe.

Plus Marino and Young, of course.

There's my 6.

Honoring old-timers like Fritz Pollard and Benny Friedman is nice, but they should be in a separate voting category like baseball. I thought they were, but apparenly they're not. How the voters can pass on the qualifications of players they never saw is beyond me. And even tho I'm a Giants fan, I never heard of Benny Friedman before today :huh:


Just as you think (and I agree) that there should be seperate voting catagory for old timers,
I think that only a select few at any position should ever qualify as 1st year eligibly inducties. and not because they have to fill a number of inducties and have to pick the best of whats left of the finalist!!!