At what point in time/6month's/ 1 year/3 year's/10 year's/ more/ would you consider someone to be a MASTER at plug building. This seems to be a term that's being used alot lately these day's..when some havn't even put in but a year or two building...Any thoughts on the subject??

:hihi:

I fish bait, am I a master... er, nevah mind... :hihi: ;)

Real Good Topic Steve, I'll be looking at the consensus, I know I'm lightyears away from it, just wanta have fun anyway. Does seem a lot want to make the jump to pro, right outta the gate..... what's the criteria...too, finish? componants? consistency?... ...

Should be a good thread...........

A master? I don't think that it is a time thing. I think that it's a quality thing. Some guys are masters right out of the gate, while others work and learn by steps. Me? I'll never learn.;)

i dont think it should be a time thing some people can do something there whole life and not be good at it and others pick things up quick .it should be judged on quality and performance.

quality, performance, and sell over 1000 plugs
I think you have to have a following.

Its plug building for chrissake! Sticks of wood that look great and catch fish......its not too tough if you have half a brain....I come up a little short for the half brain but still managing!

I'm right wit ya on the half wit thin.Just ask any o my buddies on SOL.
I used to be able to listen to a song an play it on guitar.but I was no Mozart.All things are relative.If someone makes 10,000 plugs a yr.the apt to fool some big fish here an there,does'nt mean beacause i make 50 u can't get one on mines.just gotta put it in the right place.is that what makes a master plug builder.no.Not sure what the requirements are.I consider my self one but I reserve my judgements on others FOR NOW.

I agree with the above, you really cannot put a time limit on it. Different people have different skills and excell at varying rates. Its certainly not something that happens over night. I think the ability to make a quality plug and catches fish is much more important than how long someone has been doing it. If you are trying to get at when should people start considering sell their stuff, obviously several years building at the very least.

Jigman

In the glass blowing world, a master glass blower is a glass maker who can be givin a sketch or a verbal request and he can whip it out on the first try- any shape, any height. I'm proud to say that I am a master glass blower- 16 years in the trenches .... :hee:

my take on what makes a plug builder a master plug builder is anyone who can make not only any plug, Pikeis, dannies, needles, etc but be able to design and fabricate a unique plug to them..and have it swim right, and of course, have it catch-

Its not a time thing, its not how many you sell, its a talent thing, some catch on faster than others.

Christian's a master and hes only 17 (that will cost you a plug Christian :hihi: )

I used to be able to listen to a song an play it on guitar.but I was no Mozart.

Mozart played the guitar?

Its a cross reference in musical terms.Sorry I wasn't more clear.I hafta remind myself who is reading these things.:laughs:

There's a lot of different skills required in plug building, a lot of application specific materials are needed and it's a time consuming process . If a person were to start from scratch with no knowledge whatsoever, and figure out how to do this on their own, it would take a long time to 'master' the process and become truly knowledgable in that field. But when they did, and their plugs did what they wanted, they would be a Master.

They would have learned about the different properties of the different types of wood, experimented with lots of different sealers, primers, paints and epoxies., not to mention the plug hardware itself.

Without the internet, none of this would be possible for your average woodworking guy. This all changed with the internet.

Sites like this one have enabled a lot of people (like me ) who have fished for a long time and who enjoy wood working as a hobby to make the leap into plug building relatively easy. I know what I want my plugs to do and I can work on a design and modify it until I get it to do just what I want. Am I a master, Hell no.

I know relatively little about most types of wood. I learned all I know about sealing from guys on the site. Thru drilling, learned how to do it on the lathe froma thread on SOL, and via the drill press on this site. Got some ideas for other jigs from this site too, and from a few people who I have met via these sites...

The knowledge is cheap and easy to come by. I can read it, understand it, take what I need and modify it to meet my needs.
If I come up with something that works good Ill share it with others, and hopefully help them a little. But I am not a master, and I do not think by my definition I ever really will be.

Eban.....this is what I was trying to get at....you've put your time in as in coming up through the ranks sort of speak to the point where where you can now whip up just about anything and it's a pc. of real nice work. this doesn't happen overnite..or in 6 months or even two years....gibbs,,danny p,,hab's,,,musso,,Mike f...beachmaster and other's have put in many,many years of hard work,,testing every little thing on every different style they make...those people I call master builder's. Not people that have made one or two styles and have sold a few.

[i]
Without the internet, none of this would be possible for your average woodworking guy. [/B]
wanna make a bet......

I don't think any of us can be classifed as masters... don't get me wrong all of you guys do stuff that blows my mind... but most of us are using borrowed knowledge... knowledge borrowed from the masters of yesteryear. I think the closest person to a Master is Gary2 talk about innovative... take a look at what he has to offer... mostly an SOL guy... take a look.

When we start to see some guys pulling out new stuff... Bernzy Surf Howdy is bringing him closer to the master level IMHO.. but when we start to see some truly original stuff perhaps a MASTER or two will be born.

Furthermore... who cares about being a "master" this is fun, this is the key to winter sanity, and the tips and tricks I have picked up and tried to pass on are invaluable... I think that is the mark of this generation of builders the willingness to share tricks and how to's. Without some of the tricks I picked up from Capesams, MAC, Gary2, JigMan, and many others I'd still be whittling broomsticks. So rather than focusing on being masters just keep pushing the bar up... the level of craftmanship and creativity in here is steadily climbing. Keep up the good work guys :)

-Dave

:D

Originally posted by NIB
Its a cross reference in musical terms.Sorry I wasn't more clear.I hafta remind myself who is reading these things.:laughs:

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinggg! rimshot

:laughs:

BigFish, yours look like you been building for 12 years. NIB did lay down a nice burn, didn't he, Slip?:p

Stan Gibbs was a Master :btu:



CS, I don't know who is throwing that term around but if it was here on the internet, don't take it so seriously.
I'm pretty sure there is a pretty WIDE variety of talent among plug builders.


It sure can't be set a one particular amout of time, it's not like a master pipe fitter or even can't compare to a master glass blower. There is no test to take, it may be an opinion thing only :huh: who knows. I think talent as both a fisherman and a craftsman has alot to do with how much of a master one can be.

I am a master of my own domain ;)

I don't know Slip..the wive's around here may think different as to whom is master:hihi:

Guys....I am enjoying the heck out of building plugs. Its fun, rewarding in so many ways, not just when I hook up on them. I enjoy giving them to friends and swapping with folks, I especially enjoy contributing some of my creations to worthy and charitable causes. That really makes me feel good and even better when people enjoy them.:) To this point, I have not accepted one red cent for one of my plugs, though in the near future I may just to help offset some of my costs as many of you do. The best part is when I finish one batch of new plugs I am immediately thinking about trying something new. As most of us know......there is not much new, just old plugs with new twists but I still find some of the most subtle changes or alterations mind boggling, beautiful and enjoyable. Keep it real, keep it fun and keep them catching fish.;)

I consider myself to be a jack of all trades and a master of none!;) I would rather be really good at many things than to be great at only one!:)

Originally posted by Eben
...my take on what makes a plug builder a master plug builder is anyone who can make not only any plug, Pikeis, dannies, needles, etc but be able to design and fabricate a unique plug to them..and have it swim right, and of course, have it catch- ...

I disagree with the first part. I don't think a master necessarily has to be able to make a variety of different types of plugs. You hit the nail on the head with the second part: being able to design a unique plug that catches. Its easy to clone an existing design, a lot harder to examine the local bait, figure out how it swims, transfer that to wood so it works in the conditions present, and have it work.

Jigman

Originally posted by BigFish
...I would rather be really good at many things than to be great at only one!:)

When it comes to plugs, I would rather be really good at one type of plug (swimmer or popper or darter, etc) than do an ok version of many types of plugs. I can always ho the ones I can't make :D

Jigman

Originally posted by Jigman
I disagree with the first part. I don't think a master necessarily has to be able to make a variety of different types of plugs. You hit the nail on the head with the second part: being able to design a unique plug that catches. Its easy to clone an existing design, a lot harder to examine the local bait, figure out how it swims, transfer that to wood so it works in the conditions present, and have it work.

Jigman

True... true. :)

One definition: A worker qualified to teach apprentices and carry on the craft independently.

I think this version of the definition implies that a living can be made off of the craft. To expound - design(s) unique enough to create demand and sustain a living if one chooses to take this route. Artist/Businessman (Master) vs. Hobby.

This is not to take away from the master cabinet maker who can create great plugs with incredible techniques, and loves to share knowledge. As a hobby this is great therapy and living a well rounded life to the fullest. But I think of guys like Pond and Gibbs who combined the art, love of the sport, business acumen and were not willing to sell-out to make a buck, as the masters.

Spoken from a guy who doesn't make plugs, had a couple of beers, and enjoys all the efforts of S-B.Com Plugmakers!

IMHO;
The term Master plug builder is being used because it was mentioned in OTW. The article written about plug making in the latest issue uses the term.
When you look at who the author is talking about the term is used correctly!!
My .02

Bruce Leroy is the master remember when he kicked Sho' nuffs Asterisk?!!!!

I'd say definitely the guys who've been doing it for years been through the goods and bads ups and downs, guys who who've forgotten more than I'll ever learn thats for sure.

Steve,what's that on saying on the Cape?
Jack of all trades--Master of none :)

Got Snow?

VB

I resemble that remark :hihi:

Bill and Harry say Hi.

In Vermont it's "You might make a carpenter but you'll nevah be one."

I consider myself an excellant student .. Anybody that calls themselves master your going to hear wispering and laughter as they carry there big head by... I do consider some peolple in here and over there masters though...time proven ? ... we'll see ...

Originally posted by BigFish
I consider myself to be a jack of all trades and a master of none!;) I would rather be really good at many things than to be great at only one!:)

i hear ya. i feel the same.

my opinion is, when you can hold someone's plug and look and say "wow", thats the craftsmanship speaking for itself. and the plug performs as well as it looks. there are a couple of builders impaticular here that i feel are masters (aside from the obvious) i guess a "master" is seen by each individual, not as a general term.

VB...there's not many old codder's left these day's, but the one's I know are master of quite a few things..u gotta stop hangin around those that came over the bridge 30 years ago.:hihi:

my definition of a master is someone like stan gibbs/ danny p,,,many different plug styles to their credit that still work today and that many of us copy in one form or another..

A person that may only have one or two styles[maybe a new shape or not] to their credit, I define as a specialist only because they haven't yet done an entire line of different shape's.

master..one who can do it all well.

specialist...one who does only a few well.

times sure have changed.

I don't think that a plug has to LOOK like it belongs under glass for someone to be a "master plug builder", a new term i'm growing tired of, like "sharpie":rolleyes: , I know guys that make , what I call" work plugs"...finish might not look all that sweet but size, shape and action are right on the money.These plugs work all the time, even on slow nights...because the person has put alot of thought and testing into them.Bottom line, if a guy makes a good plug , then he makes a good plug.Call him what you'd like ...If any of this matters:huh: :) johnny

CS, you are a master! And you drive me and alot of others crazy:)
How's the new underpants?
VB

To me, first and foremost, a master plug builder would also have to be a "master" fisherman. A person who has learned to read the water, understands current and structrure, knows the patterns of the fish they are pursuing, knows the bait and the characteristics of the bait that are in the water. You know the guy. We all know at least one person like this. They catch when we're all scratching our heads. They can make a negative fish go crazy and explode on a plug.

This person can carve or turn a plug that has internal energy that translates into how it moves and behaves in the water. They can hold a piece of wood in their hand and know what kind of plug is inside.

MEE:confused: no freakin way.....I haven't even temted a darta yet.. :smash: I'm goin back to jigs.

ahh! they were great at first ...then my reg. pants started ta slide off.:huh:

i consider stan gibbs, danny p., donny m., masters- rest of us are grasshoppers.

CS,,,, better get some giant safty-pins :)

Darter,,,ya ok...lol

Oooooo geeee I promised slip I'd come over here cause its the happy place and I promised I wouldn't start nothing. :D

Ok Master builder, What is a master builder?
There isn't one.
You can call some guys artist, some guys engineering genius, some guys business wizards, nuts and bolts guys, some guys anal perfectionist and other such catagories. But for a master builder? Nope , Each of us pocess talents in different aspects of the plug building game. Some care to center on the fine lines, some on the swimability, some on market value, some on stress relief some on matching the bait. Yet there is something we all need to work on. Even Mike Fixter, Habs and beachmaster with thier years still look and search for better ways so yes they are still learning and bettering themselves and thier plugs.
As for having to be perfect to be able to sell your plugs that I disagree. That is more supply and demand than if you lure is a rembrant, Lets look at a company plug. Lex lures can anyone say they are top of the line paints and material?
Of course not, yet even the owner of Lex can't make enough plugs to supply the demand.
The other thing I keep reading is length of building and testing. So does the amount of time you have been building and testing matter to when and if youcan start selling. That really is up to you and really more important to those looking for another plug to try. If you want to buy plugs that are so perfect to hang or even fish by all means do so. If you want to buy them from certain builders that is your right to try and buy some of his pluggage, If you want to try and test plugs that you have never tried and compare how they swim you should be alright in offering to pay for someones plug.
Yet I keep reading that you guys think its an outrage for a newer builder to actually sell one of his plugs. My thought if someone wants one and is willing to pay for it. Then there is no justification to not sell your plugs. We all no well most of us have spent more than we should have while chasing this hobby and if you can support it by selling to someone you wants to try what you got then go ahead.
If there is a problem with what the plug does or paint failure be prepared to make it right. Either by refunding that persons money or fixing the problem.
If you do buy a newer builders plugs then be prepared for problems but before you go and bitch on the internet contact that builder most will gladly take care of the problem because it shows them in proof what they need to improve. I know your gonna say well that should be done before you try and sell. But when The demand is as high as it is sometimes putting it on the market will get you faster results than giving away all your plugs. Let the consumer deside and if he deside you made something inferior let him let you know. Pleasing them is more important than pleasing any other builder or critque.
So I guess that's it and Slip I tried to not be so passionate and will not argue my point. Everyone thinks differently and all have their right to thier thoughts.

Some good answers, and provokes some good thought on what the criteria for each level are.

Like any trade, apprentice, journeyman, master... LOTS of apprentices, some journeymen, and FEW masters. Eben's answer is a good one.

Not just the internet, some of the fishing mags are using it too, Slip, and some individuals, but I think Tagger's answer, shows how that is dealt with :)

Well, enuf reflection, back to selling Happy Juice, for me.

I think threads like this take alot of the fun out of building plugs.....you guys take yourselves way too seriously.:rolleyes:

PS- Welcome Winchmaster...nice to see you aboard!:D

I am Master of my domain.Several times a week.Now there's a visual for ya.:D :laughs:

"...you guys take yourselves way too seriously.:rolleyes: "

AMEN!! To that!!:) johnny

Originally posted by BigFish
I think threads like this take alot of the fun out of building plugs.....you guys take yourselves way too seriously.:rolleyes:

PS- Welcome Winchmaster...nice to see you aboard!:D

I agree 100% Larry give me a beater that the fish like and I'm happy. Make a piece of art that won't get thrown and all you are showing is your Metro side. :D

Yeah Winchie, its nice to make em' nice but even more fun to beat em' up!:happy:

Beating them up....:rolleyes: now there is something we are all masters at!:laughs:

Winch, that's what I was saying....It DOESN'T have to look like art...I feel invisible on this site...:scatter:

Originally posted by TheRattBoy
Winch, that's what I was saying....It DOESN'T have to look like art...I feel invisible on this site...:scatter:

Well if you made plugs you would not be. I never saw a JTRB plug.:( Do the have a master clasification for basement builders?;)

SK makes beautiful music to a piece of wood an I've seen his pics of them trashed.just because a plug looks good don't mean u can't throw it into a pile o bluefish.I have a small collection of plugs from the guys on the sites many I chose not to throw. much to thier shagrin i got 1000's of plugs i get a momento from a fellow builder i would rather save em.show em to others that have not seen one in person. then lose one in a blu blitz.It's what I want to do.It's more vauable to me than most fish. The plugs in my fishing arsenal are all well greased machines.an the startin lineup always consist's of well proven winners.Some store bought some made by me an some customs i do toss.I will not try to bestow what i like on others.I may make a suggestion,the choice should always be ur own. i believe if a guy is doin something an it makes him happy then he's allright in my book.if he wants to call himself a Master Builder who am I to say he's not I'm just some poke punchin keys on a puter on Al Gore's Inernet.Do what U like.

Originally posted by Striperknight
Well if you made plugs you would not be. I never saw a JTRB plug.:( Do the have a master clasification for basement builders?;)


johnny does indeed make plugs.i have a few of his poppers.and the bass on a local river hate them so much,that they want to see them dead.works for me:)


guzz

Originally posted by guzzby
johnny does indeed make plugs.i have a few of his poppers.and the bass on a local river hate them so much,that they want to see them dead.works for me:)


guzz

Yep, the local smallies beat the snot out of some RattBoy poppers I have. Course if he would finish doing his nails already :rolleyes: may be he would have time to make some more :D Hey Ratty, aren't you glad not to be so invisible :smash: :laughs:

Jigman

You two are the best...:) johnny

Originally posted by TheRattBoy
You two are the best...:) johnny

Suckup. :rolleyes:

Pfft.

I am a master plug builder... of a sort.

I make the world's ugliest plugs.

That makes me a master, right?

:doh:
:topic:

Originally posted by Striperknight
Well if you made plugs you would not be. I never saw a JTRB plug.:( Do the have a master clasification for basement builders?;)

Johnny does indeed make plugs. I've seen them but don't own one:( Sorry couldn't resist:D

Originally posted by TheRattBoy
Winch, that's what I was saying....It DOESN'T have to look like art...I feel invisible on this site...:scatter:

Face it Rat, were just old school, We can't keep up with these metrosexual builders. ;)
I'm just gonna make them to catch fish, not to hang in a boutique.

i got a johnny polaris that takes fish in boston harbor allll the time. :D

do you have any more dokken besides back for the attack and tooth and nail? ive been listening to those 2 alot.

I got a JTRB Van Halen Pencil popper... :D

Originally posted by winchmaster
Face it Rat, were just old school, We can't keep up with these metrosexual builders. ;)
I'm just gonna make them to catch fish, not to hang in a boutique.

Whats a boutique and why would you hang plug there :huh: Plugs are best hung off the end of your line and thrown at fish :D Pretty plugs, ugly plugs, don't matter, Beat the snot out of all of them :humpty:

Jigman

Originally posted by Christian
...do you have any more dokken besides back for the attack and tooth and nail? ive been listening to those 2 alot.

Dude, send the guy some real metal, not that glamsexualposeurfag stuff :yak5:

Jigman

thanks for the words guys, but lets not derail this thread;)
Christian, i've been on a Rage Againist the Machine / Neil Young kick lately...scary stuff...:D
Mac, someday buddy :)
Bill, you hanging that on the stereo speaker:D
Winch & Jigs, this year we'll do the Cape together :cool: :cool:
Okay , back to whatever this started out as......

I will be there Rat. Will throw works of art to bluefish and catch big stripers on the fish catching stuff.

Nib I like what you just wrote, great words and truthful.

Jiggy your the MetroKentukian :D I know they don't have Boutiques in coal country. Them be the Fancy duds store to you.

Originally posted by TheSpecialist
I got a JTRB Van Halen Pencil popper... :D
me to.....
i got plugs i made in the early 90's

I got plugs you made in the early nineties too. And Plugs Stan Gibbs made in the forties, and Charlie Murat in the 40's and Bob Pond in the 40's and, and, and, and, and...............:laughs:

I thought you guys were all master-baters!!!