:point: We are being conditioned. Not unlike a monkey who gets zapped whenever he makes the wrong move in response to stimuli. Take oil for instance. Gas prices rise and we bitch, but not for long. We get complacent that it's only temporary, it will go down we say to ourselves and it does eventually but not down to where it was before it went up the time before and the time before that. Little increases that are disguised in bigger ones. We find relief in the fact that it is now 2.15 or so a gallon but the feds say it's only temporary and it will go down. Down to what? It goes to 1.89 and we collectively sigh in relief. Sorry folks, I don't find that relieving at all. I did not find 1.69 a relief. Up 20 down 10. Little by little, two points up one back then repeat. It's a contra dance for Christ sake and everyone just goes along with it.

Cars, insurance, electricity, prescription drugs, food and housing. I am sending my kid to a college that costs 44 grand a year! I am a Facilities manager for three towns and a school district. Our salaries don't go up but 2.0 to 2.3% a year. My facilities maintenance costs average 2.5 to 5% annually. I walk the college and say to myself I know what it should cost per square foot to clean, maintain, heat, keep the lights on, water, custodians, ground keepers, equipment so where is the rest going? You pay to apply, you pay for trancripts of SAT's, AP's to be sent (10.00 per test score per school) you pay to reserve your space. It never ends.

We have brave men and women putting thier lives on the line everyday in a war in Iraq. For what? And at a cost of 4 billion per month! We did the same in Viet Nam, for what? So you could go to Old Navy and buy tee shirts pants and jackets made there, thats for what. We have been conditioned by our government that this is similar to the domino theory of communism in the 60's.
Viet Nam was only seen as a war against communism by ouur side, the North Vietnamese knew it was a civil war and we stuck our nose in it. They didn't want anything to do with China or Russia after it was over. They only saw them as a vendor for weapons. Now we see Iraq as the domino in the muslim scourge that wants to take over the middle east. HA! Except for the common trait of believing in Islam, they all hate each other and don't trust each other as well. We are in the middle of another civil war now, we are not seen as liberators anymore, but meddlers. If the %$%$%$%$es and the Sunnis want to kill each other that' their business. They have been at it for a thousand years now and we won't change it. We don't understand thier culture and shouldn't try to inflict ours on them.

Most of them are poor and uneducated and some are doomed to be meat puppets for self absorbed fanatics, unfortunately we can't ever hope to errdicate that faction. There have always been people like that and there will always be more. Look at the right wing ultra-conservative christian fundamentalist preachers on tv. Jimmy Swaggert preaching thast those who don't believe, line for line the writings of the bible are doomed to hells fire and are wicked people. The hooker screwing, aduterous lying bastard is conditioning a bunch of meat puppet americans to his way of thinking. Send me money and God will award you riches. Bull%$%$%$%$.

We are being conditioned, no doubt about it. By corporate america, OPEC, fundamentalist christians and our own government. Original thought will some day be looked at as an affront to our way of life. 1984 here we come. :hang: :uhuh: :think: :rocketem:

Thanks Flaptail...

We are all conditioned, I am trying to buy tooling to replace some 18 year old worn out tools. Went to several suppliers of qualtiy tooling here in the US and in Europe (which also happen to be our two biggest markets) for prices. Today I have one of our senior managers tell me that we aren't doing our jobs if we ignore China as a source. :af: WTF, we are an American Manufacturer, if we buy from China, who is going to buy what we make here in the USA?????

I hate to say this, but fishing is the ultimate in the conditioning you decry.

Do a google search on "operant conditioning" and "addictive behaviors." :faga:

Thanks Flaptail...

We are all conditioned, I am trying to buy tooling to replace some 18 year old worn out tools. Went to several suppliers of qualtiy tooling here in the US and in Europe (which also happen to be our two biggest markets) for prices. Today I have one of our senior managers tell me that we aren't doing our jobs if we ignore China as a source. :af: WTF, we are an American Manufacturer, if we buy from China, who is going to buy what we make here in the USA?????

Don't let BKfromPenn hear you say that. He gave me a tongue lashing yesterday about the merrits of doing business in/with China :doh: Talk about conditioning!

So true Flaptail. So true. This "conditioning" is more about society and not really party specific. It has spanned a number of administrations and generations. People tend not to think outside the box. We can all see this is happening, yet what do we do? We believe a line of BS that a leader in our respective political parties feed us and we vote for that person. Lets face it, when we vote for a candidate who says, "I'll fix education and lower oil prices"....do we believe that this will actually be accomplished? We would LIKE it to happen, but it never does. Because the members of congress who are unhappy with the candidate selected, do everything they can to kill any bill or any policy with new initiative to spite the other party.

Unfortunately prices of oil and education will continue in the two steps forward one step back mode and we will have to find ways to combat the increases through more work/jobs and personal sacrifice. I look back (12 years) at what my parents paid for college and I am astounded. I thought $30 was astronomical in 1993! You will be paying $44k per year! What the hell will my kids be paying????I try to put this stuff out of mind with a wedding coming up in June, but it seems impossible not to think about it. I guess I'll just have to try and fish away the pain. BTW Flap, Skidmore or BU??

do you think all the shows about aliens (star trek's ect.) are JUST for entertainment purpouses or to prepare us for whats really going on at area 51.
i remember ole mr pearson (80+ years old then) telling me about those two ufo's he and the crew saw racing along... with the 100 foot rooster tails as they practically skimmed the water 75 years ago.... while workin on a fishin boat out of new bedford...and how serious he was and how the hair stood up on the back of my neck listening to his story. he had to tell someone before he passed over. he was telling me the truth. months later he died.

You got it right Flap... push it up two steps, bring it back one, everybody happy... dolts that we are, I see it in the booze business, on a lesser scale, Bud usually takes their annual increase in April, and the rest follow in May... thats so you can adjust to the new price by the time it gets hot in late June and July and the beers are flowing big time on the cape, and everybody forgets the increase.
College costs, take a back look and see how much they've gone up over the last 4 years, so you can figure in the projected increase over the next 4, unless you get an admission officer to garruntee the tuition rate, over 4 years ;)
Good luck to your daughter in the hunt!
Bronco your on the money too, no one particual party or person, just the whole mindset of the guvment and corporate America one hand greasing the other, while the other is reaching deeper into our pockets, all the while both sides telling us how good we got it. :hs:

Flap, i agree 100% Its sad, but its true. gheese, what will college cost 18 years from now when my kiddo is ready to go :(

Geeze, you didn't even touch on why we don't have Universal health care in the USA. Health is a slave's chain in this country. Healthcare nails your feet to the boss' floor. If you change jobs, you might get insurance after 90 days. One of my former co-workers was Russian. He saw no reason to pay 150$ every week for Health Insurance. Until he nearly scalped himself at work. Didn't want to go to the Hospital until I explained that it happened on the job and worker's comp would take care of it. He didn't and probably stil doesn't understand this system. Still without Insurance, he became a future father. What to do he asked. All I could advise is "save your money". This Country is forqed.

Jake,
Even with universal healthcare, you would still shell out dough for a private doctor. If its free for everyone, EVERYONE will make sure to get a check up etc every months. That gives you X amount of waiting time to see a doctor, which in turns = substandard medical attention due to time/money constraints. Soooo what would you end up doing? uh huh same as most folks in Canada or Sweden, you'd pay for a private doctor(on top of paying for everyone else's doctors in taxes etc). And heaven forbid you have any condition heart etc... and you get a 6-8 month wait to see someone....

The conditioning started with the plastic diaper, continued with the condo (the home with the lawn you dont have to mow) and will continue to grow....

This is called capitalism, it may not be perfect, but its the best system anyone has come up with.
We all think gas prices are high, but adjusted for inflation, they are less than the 80's.
Flap, look at some of the positves, in the last few years, greedy corporations that inflated stock prices (ENron, World Com) were busted, their leaders, in jail or on trial. Money management firms and insurance firms have been busted for swindiling investors or customers. This is all good stuff for the "common" man.
I totally disagree about the "fundamentalist" chirtian views governing ANY part of American life. Want examples? turn on the tube. Remember 20 yrs ago when Soap was on? It was SOOO contoversial that Billy Crystal was a gay character, what about now? Gay televisions shows are the norm, sex is on every channel at all hours. Look at the biggest cable hits - Sopranos, Sex in the City, Six feet Under....are these christian shows? No way. Yet millions and millins of people are watching. I am not religious at all, but I think American needs a little more return to good values. Kids are exposed way to early to sex and violence.
I guess I don't view the US being such a bad place. There are always challenges for each generation, these are ours.

RI Jimmy, I appreciate your comments and welcome them anytime. Capitalism is the best system there is. Lord knows that communism will never work because human nature dictates that though we think it would be wonderful if everyone had what they needed and recieved no more or no less than the next guy, everyone on an equal plane, it can't work because everyone wants to be better and have more than the guy next to him.

I mentioned the Christian fundementalists not for what they control now but what they would like to control and thier "threat", for a better word, is growing. You rightfully pointed out television, radio etc and the sex, language and violence it portrays but that is, however perverted we see it, a freedom of expression as guaranteed by the US Constitution and as such should be only minimaly controlable. I agree that it can get out of hand, but nevertheless, free speech and freedom of expression is a guaranteed right of every US citizen. The way I see it is that only a governmentaly funded television station (PBS) has any chance of being regulated in a more stringent manner than the privately owned national broadcasting companies. I always found it odd that they could show natives in the amazon running around naked on tv but when it comes to white women everyone gets thier shorts in an uproar. Smacks of racism to me.

I believe that Enron and TRW's people being put to the fire was a token gesture on the govt.s part. Just enough to show to give the illusion that someone in the govt. really cares. Pick a couple companies, burn the ceo and top management alive publicly then go back to business as usual. They were sacrificed for the greater good, that being conditioning the public into believing they are serious, which they really aren't. You will never ever see Haliburton toasted like that. Capitalism, or I should say, the theory of capitalism, is a good one, like you say the best we got. But it's full of holes, greed, nepotism and croniesm.

One of the real problems in anything getting done is lobbyists. Oil, drug, insurance and healthcare have them, and pay them big money to see things stay status quo. Hydrogen technology exists for cars to get unbelievable mileage but the oil industry spends billions in thier lobby against it. Very successfully I might add.

Democracy in it's purest form is without party, label or affiliation. It's the right of one human being to say what he thinks and vote his conscience on whatever issue lies before him. Democrats, republicans vote the party line if they are registered as such and woe to them that do not, they are chastised for it. I was once an Independent. Not anymore, they formed a party too! How can you be independent if you belong to a political party? Now I am registered as "non-enrolled". To me thats being true to the democratic ethic. My children are pre-disposed, as research has now found, to vote the same way and that makes me proud.

My proudest achievment as a parent is to have two kids who are independent thinkers. Who think with thier heads,thier hearts and thier conscience and who question authority's course. They are being conditioned to be anti-conditioned. Peace out to you all. ;)

concerning the new play comin out called, "reefer madness"....

QUOTE:It's about the lengths people will go to convince you to think the way they want you to think," he says. " 'Reefer Madness' is a prime example of people using scare tactics to convince people to enact laws against drugs, gays in the military or whatever."
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and if it's not scare tactics.... it'll be another tactic or a different subject
but its the same old deal of either dis-information or warping the information...until it is transformed into a scheme that suits their needs. (thought it applied) _Rav

I have to agree with jake about universa health care, it is long overdue. RIght now i have a job that sucks and pays a crappy wage but its got bennies, so i feel somewhat greatful, ive turned down many otehr jobs because of a lack of insurance, ot insurance after 60-90 days. Even with my crap insurance it cost me 185 bucks out of pocket for a tetnus shot<damn fish hook>. I dont know what the national average for health care spending per person is but i know it is substantial, i believe it is approachjing 5% of the gdp. If all of that money was in circulation there would be a lot more spending, strenghtening our economy, or put into savings. Our health care system is seriously flawed and i think everyone realizes that, yet nothing gets done. Hillary care is sounding pretty good now. I for one wouldnt mind a flat tax across the board to pay for health care, it would eliminate the cost of the coverage for businesses, maybe that could create a few more jobs. Tons of capitol would be freed up for more investment in industry, and dont forget that americans would have more spendable income to buy the goods that americans manufacture. The medical care i have received in the past couple years wasnt anything to write home about, it already is sub-par, i feel like a number. I dated a canadian for a while and her care was good, i didnt hear her complain at all. When she thought about moving here she was a bit sceptical of our system. Sure Canada, Sweden, Great Britain, and most other developed countries dont have a perfect health care system but it is better than ours in many ways. I can argue this till i turn blue in the face or till my fingers get blisters, im done...

P.S. Thank God fishing season is here, this stuff gets the blood pressure up, glad i dont need meds for it, WOW that stuff is expensive...

You can have capitalism AND great, low cost, if not free healthcare; just look at most of Eastern Europe. They look at us and think we're idiots in that department.

And that's a well written post (that I completely agree with) there Flap. Both of your posts.

reliable(affordable) medications that you can count on.....and with the recent viox dilema with people getting heart attacks i have little or NO faith in the FDA
and/ or their approvals... (the FDA needs a HUGE house cleaning....)

i am now justifiably paranoid about all medications....even ibuprohen...
and have embarked on a much more natural approach to preventive medicine
and i won't be putting my trust in their hands ever again.

I do not think the universial healthcare is a benefit.

If you are getting sub-par medical treatment, I would say you have been conditioned to be content with sub-par treatment.

I was using my local hospital and their affiliated doctors. Only to be mistreated, mis-diagnosed, and put at an increased risk. So I did some research and decided on a big hosipital in Boston associated with Harvards' medical school.

If anyone is unhappy with their current healthcare - take some time and do some research. Given the out-of-pocket expenses to me, and the huge premiums leveled against my employer, I am not going to be happy with Sub-par care. It does not take a lot of reserach to find qualified candidates.

Take it from someone who knows - do not stick with a crappy doctor just because it is convient. You do not want to have to change doctors while being actively treated for some condition.


And I will say that I am not affiliated with any parties. I like to think of myself is a Constitutionalist, which is generally reserved for the Republicans. But I do not vote along party lines. And there is nothing in our constitution that says everyone is entitled to the same health care system, home, fishing tackle or cars. We might not like the boat we are in, but do you see a better boat on the horizon?