Stuff is a PIA! :mad: I have e-texed my last batch of plugs....its auto clear urethane for me from now on....just spray and go! No more flipping, no need to build the friggin rotisserie I was getting ready to make! Had my buddy shoot a couple of test plugs for me and I am sold! :uhuh: Never was a huge fan of the e-tex anyway! Too time consuming! :doh: Now just gotta get me a spray gun. :walk:

Be careful BF, I think that stuff will kill ya if you inhale it.

I will be wearing the proper respirator and stuff! My buddy rents the bay next to me and does auto body work....he is hooking me up with what I need to know. ;)

I"ve said it before and i'll say it again,grass doesn't grow under BF's feet.:musc: :hihi:

good, I'll bring a batch up someday and I'll bring my respirator and tyvek suit and finish some with ya, or we could do it here. I am a fan of the auto clearcoat as well but it has it's dangers of course. Now I just need to paint some plug bodies :rollem:

Sounds great Slip....get turning cause I plan to be spraying in a couple weeks! :)

You gonna use his spray booth/ventilation, or you installing one in your bay?

That stuff is nasty chit. Be careful out there ;)

Auto-Ure does give a pissah finish though... although, I've been happier with the e-tex as of late, figgered a couple things out, and going smooth......
for what few I make, it's no big issue.

We know a guy that make's great plug's and use's auto clear first then put's e-tex on top for better protection :hee:

CS ,is auto clear a 2 part urethane and if so wouldn't it give a harder finish than epoxy.? :huh: Ya keep me learnin:)

It is a 2 part urethane. It does give a great finish and I am hoping more durable than the e-tex! :as:

etex sux! makes me angry :peessed: i've ruined a bunch of plugs with that crap :doh: got a good lead for a new finish, but until then, devcon it and forget it. :tm:

so it's been told that although the auto is hard and clear that the e-tex on top is alittle more forgiving when hitting an object and acts like a bumper for the clearcoat that's under it....

how does tung oil compare then.....? with clear coat and envirotex...

its just not sprayable? remembering: the sturbridge villiage candle makin shop technique ......wouldn't it be a more augmented process to be dippin them
dozens at a time..... in a gutter shaped container of clear coat....?

i realize the air brushing part on an indivdual plug.....is an art form....:rollem:

auto-clear then west.

it'll break rocks ;)

I have tried auto grade finishes and beyond.... they don't hold up. I tried that Nyalic stuff... developed for space capsules and used on the bottoms of aluminum boats... it doesn't hold up too well. Aliphatic Urethane... doesn't hold up. Try and try.... epoxy seems to be the best but it is a pain in the @$$. Do what I do... train your girlfriend to help with the epoxy :D. Or pass them off on Fishaholic as I sometimes do :rotf3:

-Dave

how does tung oil compare then.....? with clear coat and envirotex...

its just not sprayable? remembering: the sturbridge villiage candle makin shop technique ......wouldn't it be a more augmented process to be dippin them
dozens at a time..... in a gutter shaped container of clear coat....?

i realize the air brushing part on an indivdual plug.....is an art form....:rollem:

the hardner kicks the urethane too fast to do it that way without wasting a ton of paint. Working time varies with brands but it's about 30-60 min. so it doesn't make sense to mix up a large enough volume to be able to dunk plugs, it may be possible but it may be costly as well. Spraying on is the preferred method, 2 coats and done.

Like CS said we know someone who does 2 coats and then scuffs and does 2 coats of E-tex for durability.

Bigfish, it won't be any more durable than the E-tex on the sand, however it's alot quicker than applying the E-tex and waiting for it to cure. Since you don't plan on bouncing them off rocks, I think it will hold up fine. Do some tests first on the different types of spray bombs you use = laquer,enamel etc. to find out compatibility.

:D. Or pass them off on Fishaholic as I sometimes do :rotf3:

-Dave

You're killing me... :whackin:
Ya gotta leave me some time to fish.. :rotf2:

By the way, the plugs I epoxied for you the other day will be getting bounced off rocks today. :rollem:

:mad:

Lets see some pics Dave.....

Bruce if you can bring one of those things I gave you to bigfish's and see if that auto type stuff would be a decent type of finish for it. I would be interested in the results. Paul

As you know,E tex can be trickey, one batch great the next,what happened?
:( I have found since heating it when mixing i have had very good results. It becomes more fluid when warm and flows much better leaving a nice smooth finish. Just take the container i mix in,and place it in a hot cup of water while mixing and applying.

yep JPI, I warm up the bottles in a pan of hot water, jut like I used ta do the formula bottles many moons ago, for the kids-----> then pour out exact one to one mix, get the wide wooden popsicle type sticks at ACMoore, 15 second clockwise, 15second counterclockwise, SLOW stir, repeat for until at least 3 minutes have run off the clock, if you use the wide stick and do it nice and slow....
-----> no bubbles..... very bright lights... helps ya see the bald spots, I don't throw the brush away till I'm done flippin, so I can pull any holidays out.
flippin seems to be less with the warm mix, woulda thought opposite :huh:
mix up a batch with some glitter in it too, helps you really get a feel for how long to mix... if you don't mix it correctly=====tacky.... last ones I did (those dannys) were totally dry in under 12 hours.

The problem I find the worst with auto urethane is damage from hook swing. The plugs I've coated with auto clears and used that way started to look like crap after a few outings even when I didn't catch fish on them. It got even worse when I switched to VMC's, they're a lot sharper than Mustads There's really nothing you can do about rocks or bluefish for that matter. I've been in the auto body business for 28 years, before 2 part urethanes were ever made. I've tried most of them on plugs, imron, delthane, DC 3000 (which is what I use now) and I haven't found one that would stand up on it's own. I tried a PPG product called F 3910 which is what the MBTA decided on for their train cars after exhauastive tests for durability when washing the graffiti off with lacquer thinner. It failed miserably on plugs. They are rock hard for chemical resistance, protection against acid rain and bird droppings. But the properties that make them resist chemicals also make them brittle. An example would be to look at the hood of a car that is a year old or more and notice the chips on the front of it from pebbles kicked up from the road. All cars have some if they get driven enough. Manufacturers know it also. That is why most cars have plastic cladding or a heavy undercoating under the paint on the bottom of the doors and rockers for chip protection, because the clear won't hold up. Some even use pieces of clear vinyl in spots that will get sandblasted like on the front edge of pickup beds. The two things I've found that help me the most with durability are mil thickness and resiliency. I haven't run into a product yet that is tough with a couple of thin coats. That doesn't mean there isn't one out there, we just haven't found it yet. No system is perfect and I'm always looking to improve the way I do things. Most epoxies are more resilient than auto urethane and the thickness of the coats can only help.I only use an auto urethane clear because it is available to me on a daily basis. I use it for a buffer coat between my color and my epoxy. I could use a spray can of clear and get the same results I'm getting now. I believe it's the epoxy not the auto clear that does all the work. If you make a lot of plugs and are looking for fast results, give auto clears a try. If you're looking for longer duration of your finish I would reccomend trying an epoxy. ...mrpogie

Auto urethane clears is one of the reasons that I quit painting cars after 35 years. They are dangerous to use. If you're spraying it you should be suited up in Tyvek and wearing an air supplied respirator. Your skin should never touch it, you will absorb the isocyanate component right through your skin. Nitril gloves are the routine. And then there's the cost :crying: Does leave a pretty shine tho.

epoxy be the man! got a line on liquid clear titanium... :grins:

Lots to think about....thanks for the info Mr. Pogie and BBJ. I am not nearly as concerned about the durability factor. They are going to get beat up, thats a fact. hey will get beat up with the epoxy also but at least I do not have the same amount of time putting the e-tex on. I do not have much trouble with the e-tex other than the time it takes to use. Thanks again all. :as:

larry- build the damned plug kabob :laugha:

BFL... time it takes to use, or time it takes to dry??? I'm confused... nothing new there ;)

larry- build the damned plug kabob :laugha:

like this http://www.bmwoodworking.com/brucefishing/spinner.jpg

and your plugs could look like this

http://www.bmwoodworking.com/brucefishing/mrpogie.jpg :D

i LOVE mr.pogie plugs :happy: :happy:

Lots to think about....thanks for the info Mr. Pogie and BBJ. I am not nearly as concerned about the durability factor. They are going to get beat up, thats a fact. hey will get beat up with the epoxy also but at least I do not have the same amount of time putting the e-tex on. I do not have much trouble with the e-tex other than the time it takes to use. Thanks again all. :as:
I hear ya Larry, it gets old real fast epoxying plugs, it would be nice to find something we could spray on that would be as durable as epoxy. Canalman and I have tried a lot of differant products and nothing holds up even close to epoxy, at least as of now. Plus there's no danger of harmful airborn particles.
I want to find something that I can dip the plugs in , still searching. Good luck and let us know ho you make out.

Karl, that is a great idea with the baby bottle warmer:kewl: Do they still sell those things? Slip,your out of control:hihi: You got a 9.9 Honda powering that thing:D

Always looking F-18. ;)

make the wheel Larry - I can coat 24 plugs in about 1/2 hour with the wheel. We don't want to be sending wishes to the hospital.

catch you on the beach!! :cheers:

I already have the low rpm motor...so I will give it a go! :buds:

BBJ. are isocyanate an cyanoacrytates the stuff in zap a gap similarly dangerous i use the stuff all the time on my jigs.

:bc: Oh crap! Never thought of that, NIB! Time to do a search.

What I found:NCOH/SORDSA


ISOCYANATES: Health Hazards
and Precautions

SORDSA ALERT: 1998




WARNING !!!

Workers exposed to diisocyanates may develop serious or fatal respiratory disease.



BACKGROUND

HEALTH EFFECTS OF ISOCYANATES

MEDICAL SURVEILLANCE

OCCUPATIONAL EXPOSURE LIMITS

ASSESSMENT OF POTENTIAL EXPOSURE

RECOMMENDATIONS

APPENDIX A Diisocyanate Synonyms
APPENDIX B List of AIAs for the Monitoring of Chemical Stress Factors:
APPENDIX C Further Information about Isocyanates
APPENDIX D Compensation Advice
APPENDIX E Personal Protective Equipment Suppliers:


BACKGROUND
Isocyanates are a group of low molecular weight aromatic and aliphatic compounds containing the isocyanate group (-NCO). In industry isocyanates are used for the production of polyurethanes, polymers formed by the urethane links of the -NCO groups with the hydroxyl (OH) groups of polyols. Since at least two -NCO groups are required for this reaction, diisocyanates are the principle monomers. They are widely used in the manufacture of flexible and rigid foams, fibres, coatings such as paints and varnishes, and elastomers. Diisocyanates are increasingly used in the automobile industry, autobody repair and building insulation materials.

The most common diisocyantes are toluene diisocyanate (TDI), methylene bisphenyl isocyanate (MDI), hexamethylene diisocyanate (HDI) and isophorone diisocyante (IPDI). Appendix A lists commonly used synonyms for these four diisocyanates.

The major route of occupational exposure to isocyanates is by inhalation of the vapour or aerosol; exposure may also occur through skin contact during the handling of liquid isocyanates. Occupational exposure to isocyanates via the lungs, skin and eyes can occur at the supplier level during the production of raw isocyanates and formulation of isocyanate products; at the manufacturing level during pouring, weighing, stirring, mixing and foaming when producing polyurethane products; and at the level of the end user during combustion of isocyanate containing compounds in sand moulding and welding, or when applying coatings or producing do-it-yourself foam. Other exposures can occur from accidents such as spillage or fire during handling, storage or transport. The most important form of exposure is to the isocyanate vapour and aerosols. TDI and MDI, which are low in molecular weight, are highly volatile at ambient temperature, but for all isocyanates, heating, pressure or lack of ventilation can result in significant human exposure. Aerosols generated in spraying are a particularly important source of occupational exposure. Finally, polyurethane dust that results from cutting foam may also be a source of occupational exposure.



HEALTH EFFECTS OF ISOCYANATES
Irritation

Isocyanates are powerful irritants to the mucous membranes of the eyes, gastrointestinal and respiratory tracts. Exposure usually manifests in symptoms such as excessive tear secretion, dry throat, dry cough, chest pains and difficulty in breathing. Direct skin contact with isocyanates can also cause marked inflammation and dermatitis. Sensitization of the skin can occur however this is rare. If the liquid splashes into the eyes, serious chemical conjunctivitis may occur. Respiratory irritation may progress to a chemical bronchitis with severe bronchospasm.


Sensitization and Asthma

Isocyanates can also sensitize workers, making them subject to asthma attacks if they are exposed again, even to concentrations below the occupational exposure limit. Owing to their wide usage, isocyantes have become one of the main causes of occupational asthma worldwide. Death from severe asthma in sensitized subjects has been reported.


Hypersensitivity Pneumonitis

Sporadic cases of hypersensitivity pneumonitis have also been reported in workers exposed to isocyanates. Individuals with acute hypersensitivity pneumonitis typically develop symptoms 4 to 6 hours after exposure. Symptoms are often flu-like, with fever, muscle aches and headaches. Symptoms may also include a dry cough, chest tightness and difficult breathing. Individuals with chronic hypersensitivity pneumonitis often experience progressively more difficult breathing, fatigue and weight loss.


Cancer

The carcinogenic effects of TDI have been investigated by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) and the World Health Organization (WHO). The IARC concluded that the data were sufficient to show that TDI causes cancer in animals. The WHO concluded that TDI should be treated as a potential human carcinogen.



MEDICAL SURVEILLANCE
Medical surveillance should be provided to all workers exposed to diisocyanates in the workplace. Preplacement examinations including a comprehensive medical and work history, with special emphasis on pre-existing respiratory conditions and smoking history should be performed. A physical examination with emphasis on the respiratory system, chest x-ray, and baseline spirometry should be included. The worker should also be judged fit to use a respirator. Annual periodic examinations consisting of interim medical and work histories, a physical examination and pre- and post-shift or workweek spirometry should be performed.



OCCUPATIONAL EXPOSURE LIMITS
The Occupational Exposure Limits (OELs) utilised in South Africa are listed in the Department of Labour Regulations for Hazardous Chemical Substances (Annexure 1). They are taken from the OELs utilised in the UK by the Health & Safety Executive (HSE). The HSE OELs for isocyanates-in-air are set at a level to minimise respiratory sensitization.

The 8-hour time weighted average (TWA) Occupational Exposure Limit - Control Limit (TWA OEL-CL) for all isocyantes (as -NCO) is 0.02 mg/m3 3 .

The 15 minute TWA Short Term OEL-CL for all isocyantes (as -NCO) is 0.07 mg/m3.

The OELs for isocyanates are given the Notation "Sen" - capable of causing respiratory sensitisation.

NOTE: Isocyanates have poor odour thresholds. For example TDI is not normally detected by odour until the concentration is 5 to 10 times the TWA OEL-CL.



ASSESSMENT OF POTENTIAL EXPOSURE
In order to safeguard the health and safety of workers, employers are required under the Regulations for Hazardous Chemical Substances (HCSs) to carry out an initial risk assessment and repeat this at least every two years to determine whether any worker might possibly be exposed to HCSs in the workplace. Where the assessment shows that worker exposure to airborne isocyanates is likely to occur, then an employer shall ensure that a measurement programme for the airborne isocyanates is carried out. This programme should be conducted by an Approved Inspection Authority (AIA) or a person whose competence to carry out air monitoring has been verified by an AIA. A list of AIAs who may offer a service to measure exposure to airborne isocyanates is included in Appendix B.

A standard method for sampling isocyanates-in-air involves the use of midget impingers with a "trapping" solution and subsequent instrumental or colourimetric analysis.

Exposure should preferably be monitored by means of personal sampling techniques. If extensive reliance is placed on static sampling, it will be necessary to show that the results can be used to give a reliable estimation of personal exposure.

Direct reading instruments are obtainable which respond to airborne concentrations of some isocyanate compounds. Care should be taken in interpreting the readings from such instruments where exposure to mixed isocyanates, isocyanate aerosols or isocyanate dusts occurs. Some direct reading instruments do not respond to all free isocyanates and may underestimate exposures.



RECOMMENDATIONS
Exposure to isocyanates should be prevented. Where this cannot be achieved, exposure should be kept as low as is reasonably practicable below the OELs.

Substitution

Where feasible, employers should substitute a less hazardous material for the isocyanate in use.


Closed Systems and Ventilation

Engineering controls such as closed systems and exhaust ventilation should be the principal method for minimizing isocyanate exposure in the workplace. Exhaust ventilation with air cleaning systems should be designed to capture and contain vapours and particulates. The efficacy of ventilation systems should be checked at least every 3 months and recorded.


Worker Isolation

Entry to areas containing isocyanates should be restricted to essential workers. If feasible, these workers should avoid direct contact with these chemicals by using automated equipment operated from a control booth or room with separate ventilation.


Administrative Control Measures

To minimise the emission of isocyanates and worker contact with isocyanates, limit the amount of isocyanate materials in use, restrict the period during which workers are exposed, and lay down good work procedures and instructions. Ensure that the work procedures and instructions are complied with.


Personal Protective Equipment

When there is a potential for isocyanate exposure, workers should be provided with and required to use appropriate personal protective equipment such as coveralls, footwear, chemical-resistant gloves and goggles, full faceshields, and suitable respiratory protective equipment.

Respiratory Protective Equipment

The use of respirators is the least preferred method of controlling worker exposures. Respirators should not be used as a primary control for routine operations. The Regulations for HCSs recognizes, however, that respirators may be used during situations such as the implementation of engineering controls, some short-duration maintenance procedures and emergencies. Only the most effective respirators should be used for situations involving exposures to isocyanates because they generally have poor warning properties, are potent sensitizers, and may be carcinogenic. Respiratory protective equipment should always be adequate in terms of the protection it affords and suitable for the circumstances of use. Such equipment for use when exposed to isocyanates would usually mean a properly designed and fitted full facepiece self-contained or compressed air-line breathing apparatus. In some circumstances half-mask compressed air-line breathing apparatus may be acceptable. Where isocyanates are present in the working atmosphere as vapours only, and if there is no risk of oxygen deficiency, full facepiece canister respirators may be acceptable.

Half mask respirators are available for vapours and mists of isocyanates associated with polyurethane paints when air concentrations are not more than 10X the OEL.

Lightweight airline fed masks and visors have been developed specifically for spray painting operations with panoramic vision and replaceable over-visors.

The respirator programme must, at a minimum, meet the requirements set out in the Regulations for HCSs. Regulation 11(2) requires that where respiratory protective equipment is provided, the employer shall ensure-

that the relevant equipment is capable of controlling the exposure to below the OEL for the relevant HCS;

that the relevant equipment is correctly selected and properly used;

that information, instructions, training and supervision which is necessary with regard to the use of the equipment is known to the employees; and

that the equipment is kept in good condition and efficient working order.


All workers who have to use respiratory protective equipment should be specifically trained in the use of the equipment supplied and have the limitations of use explained to them. The programme should be evaluated regularly and modified if necessary to meet the above requirements.

Where workers use respirators then respirator zones should be demarcated. Respirator zones are areas in which approved respirators must be worn.

Information and Training

All workers whose work may involve exposure to isocyanates should be fully and carefully instructed as to the nature of the hazards and the precautions to be observed. Particular attention should be paid to ensuring that workers understand the circumstances in which protective clothing and respiratory protective equipment should be worn. Attention should be given to ensure that isocyanate containers are properly labelled and that suitable Material Safety Data Sheets are available.

Workers should be advised on the need for good personal hygiene and not to take contaminated overalls or safety equipment home. Workers should be encouraged to report persistent respiratory symptoms or decline in effort tolerance early.

First aid

Splashes of isocyanate on the skin of the worker or his/her clothes should receive prompt attention as indicated:

eyes - wash out with copious amounts of clean water;

skin - wash with soap and water;

contamination of clothing - remove all contaminated clothing, wash the skin preferably under a shower with soap and water, wash the contaminated clothing.


Following any cases of gross personal exposure or contamination, prompt medical attention should be sought.

Decontamination and Waste Disposal

Procedures for decontamination, waste disposal and transport should be established for isocyanate-contaminated materials or equipment.

Eating, Smoking and Drinking

Nobody may drink, eat or smoke in an isocyanate respirator zone nor keep beverages, food or tobacco in such a respirator zone.

Exposure Monitoring

Each employer who manufactures, transports, packages, stores, or uses isocyanates or products containing isocyanates should determine whether the potential exists for worker exposure, and whether monitoring of exposure to isocyanates-in-air is required.


Medical Monitoring

A medical monitoring programme should be established for the early detection and prevention of the acute and chronic effects of exposure to isocyanates. The worker’s physician should be given information about the adverse health effects of exposure to isocyanates and the worker’s potential for exposure.

And for "Superglues"NIOSH Pocket Guide to Chemical Hazards
Methyl-2-cyanoacrylate CAS 137-05-3
CH2=C(CN)COOCH3 RTECS AS7000000
Synonyms & Trade Names
Mecrylate, Methyl cyanoacrylate, Methyl alpha-cyanoacrylate, Methyl ester of 2-cyanoacrylic acid DOT ID & Guide

Exposure
Limits NIOSH REL: TWA 2 ppm (8 mg/m3) ST 4 ppm (16 mg/m3)
OSHA PEL†: none
IDLH N.D. Conversion 1 ppm = 4.54 mg/m3
Physical Description
Colorless liquid with a characteristic odor.
MW: 111.1
BP: ?
FRZ: ?
Sol: 30%

VP(77°F): 0.2 mmHg
IP: ?

Sp.Gr(81°F): 1.10

Fl.P: 174°F
UEL: ?
LEL: ?


Class IIIA Combustible Liquid: Fl.P. at or above 140°F and below 200°F.
Incompatibilities & Reactivities
Moisture [Note: Contact with moisture causes rapid polymerization.]
Measurement Methods
OSHA 55
Personal Protection & Sanitation
Skin: Prevent skin contact
Eyes: Prevent eye contact
Wash skin: Daily
Remove: No recommendation
Change: No recommendation
Provide: Eyewash
First Aid (See procedures)
Eye: Irrigate immediately
Skin: Water wash
Breathing: Respiratory support
Swallow: Medical attention immediately

Respirator Recommendations To be added later
Exposure Routes inhalation, ingestion, skin and/or eye contact
Symptoms Irritation eyes, skin, nose; blurred vision, lacrimation (discharge of tears); rhinitis
Target Organs Eyes, skin, respiratory system

It strikes me odd that the first of these posts , a copy/paste is from South Africa and is very thorough. In fact I deleted a few appendeces. This one is from the USA and not quite as thorough, I feel. My conclusion is that Auto Urethane is deadly. When they say not to take your coveralls home, they say a lot. It's a wonder that I'm still alive.

:

Any comments on using West System on plugs? I always have that on hand and don't see much mention of it for this application.

Ross, West system is a fine epoxy for plugs. Too expensive for me though.


BBJ, that is very scary and disturbing :shocked: When this job is done and out of the shop, I will never get any more of the urethane paints again :doh:
and I will toss the suit and resp. cartriges as well. Crap, even sanding the primer is going to be trouble :(

this quote scares me - "Death from severe asthma in sensitized subjects has been reported."
Toulene is some nasty stuff too, that is what the paint I have has in it. :wall:

All this info makes you want to fish bare wood! :doh:

Something that I should have mentioned is that nearly all finishes and chemicals sold in this country have a toll-free number on the back of the can for information. This is for information of reactivity with the user. Any questions should be directed there. Whether they actually help or not, welll....

CK TOSEE IF THEY MAKE A UV INHIBITOUR IT WILL STOP IT FROM YELLOWING JUST A FEW DROPS