As some of you know, I participate on an advisory panel for RI DEM Enforcement. The upcoming meeting has two primary topics open for discussion and I want to get your opinions please.

First item: Dockside sales. RI has historically not pressed hard on dockside sales. "Looking the other way" is not the words of choice but it has been a low burner item. The question is, what do you think about dockside sales from licensed commercial people? Keeping mind that this has been a long time practice in RI.

Item two: Up for discussion is how to regard herring in Pens both on land and on shore and how should the account towards possesion. One school of thought has possesion, for ease of enforcement, at whatever the daily legal take limit is - say currently 12 fish. Other schools of thought have that if you stock up for a few days (or weeks) and have a whole bunch but you are working within your daily legal take.

So please, HONEST OPEN discussion - no flame war, just state your points please :hee:

THanks,

John

(obligatory disclaimer - I have the letter at home and I will clarify the wording if necessary tonight)

bring back the death penalty in ri. kill all poachers.

I'm fine with the lobsterboats selling lobsters at the dock. Finfish would be harder to manage. The problem is "If he can do that why can't I do this." An example would be a mate, say, who works on a charter boat and has a RI license. And this mate starts selling seabass and blackfish and stripers to people who are walking the docks.
Crabs, lobsters, squid, mackerel, herring, or anything that isn't managed under a quota I don't have a problem with. But the regulated quota species I think would be very hard to figure out at a dockside sale.

Dockside sales :kewl:

Increase enforcement. Shut the runs down. I'd like to see more plain clothes DEM agents. :vamp:

I am not educated enough in either topic, but of course I have my uninformed opinion :hee:
I do not agree with the whole possesion limit idea, I can see a daily take limit but a possesion limit???
Like John said, what about pens and such.. I know a few people that have the time to run out and grab their daily take but can't go fish them right then so they throw them in a pen and fish when they can.. I dunno, I just don't get it..... I am just a surfcaster

Dockside sales - Keep it, uncle sam gets plenty. And I'm sure it's a thrill for folks to get fresh fish from the boat that caught them.

Herring Pens - They're like a bait bank account, if you get your daily limit and can keep them alive, more power to ya. Until the herring commercial boats are pulled from the sea, we common folk should still be allowed our share.

Please don't take my Herring!! :crying:
They're my pets.

Seriously, I've noticed that the DEM is doing a great job at watching the runs this year, I've been checked 3 times already. If they keep that up, I think it will help the Herring population greatly. The poachers are the problem....

I don't have a problem with dockside sales. The commercial guys are working hard to try to make a living and as long as they are following the rules, I'm good.

A lot of touristos love to go down and get a lobster fresh from the boat - its also a good way to get eels....
This reminds of the time they decided to crack down on the waitresses for not claiming tips - they love to crack down on poor people.

i would like to see a warden out checking the size of fish taken.ive never seen a warden at nite.

as far as boat sales go, i think it should stay the same... my reasoning is that boat sales are the only time a guy can sell his fish at retail prices ( or at least above wholesale) givin the tight restrictions on finfish catches, at least allow the guys to get a fair price for their catch.

Herring pens- IMO pens are .0006% of the problem.. its the herring fleeet. why not regulate them. ????

as far as boat sales go, i think it should stay the same... my reasoning is that boat sales are the only time a guy can sell his fish at retail prices ( or at least above wholesale) givin the tight restrictions on finfish catches, at least allow the guys to get a fair price for their catch.

One problem with selling as Goosefish alluded to above is that the species that are regulated with quotas need a centralized accounting like the wholesalers. Yeh, I would like to see some of the guys make more dough instead of slaving to the wholesaler's whim but how would you account for quotas?

Herring pens- IMO pens are .0006% of the problem.. its the herring fleeet. why not regulate them. ????

Does anyone have any real hard data that the "Sea" herring boats are not catching loads of river/bluebacks as bycatch?

One problem with selling as Goosefish alluded to above is that the species that are regulated with quotas need a centralized accounting like the wholesalers. Yeh, I would like to see some of the guys make more dough instead of slaving to the wholesaler's whim but how would you account for quotas?


Does anyone have any real hard data that the "Sea" herring boats are not catching loads of river/bluebacks as bycatch?

The boat owners would have to self police themselves I guess :huh: All I am saying is that if you take that privilige away from them, most will cheat the system anyway and sell direct.

as for herring i am under the impresion that river/bluebacks hang out and party with atlantic sea herring.. how is a trawler going to know what fish is what on the 'blippah' and not scoop up the wrong species....

i hate to say it but i would not be suprised to see 'no fishing zones' like they have in california happen out here. if you cant regulate, simply shut it down until you have a good enough recovery.

i hate to say it but i would not be suprised to see 'no fishing zones' like they have in california happen out here. if you cant regulate, simply shut it down until you have a good enough recovery.

That is a very frightening but not so unrealistic prospect.

sandy point will be first :hihi:

sandy point will be first :hihi:

That would be a bummer.I'd hate to have to move.

Chuck wouldn't be to happy with that either. ;)

if it did happen it would be many square miles. like from point judith to BI to watch hill, or beavertail to sakonnett light, etc... i dont think it would ever happen, but you never know...

02...I've been on alot of different comm./charter boats[ma.] from time to time over the years just to see what was[mostly for fun]..one thing I do know for a fact is most of these guy's don't give a [you know] about the written law. the only thing on their mind is $$$ and they'll keep fishing to the last fish is caught......they'll also be the first one's to complain when the stock's are low.....it's not our fault they say....why are the stocks low,,cause they cheat like a mother......I know of one scalloper who would get his 12 tote limit, then get another 6,shuck those and sell off the boat on the dock...he got caught...I know this guy well...after that even I couldn't get one meat from him.....now those six extra totes he use to get on every trip out are still stock on the ocean bottom....the law can work, if enforced.


possesion cover's all...12 only..home... car..truck..boat...pen//// and that goes for 3 guys in a truck doesn't mean 36....I also think they should close/stop all comm. herring fishing for 7 years.

02...I've been on alot of different comm./charter boats[ma.] from time to time over the years just to see what was[mostly for fun]..one thing I do know for a fact is most of these guy's don't give a [you know] about the written law. the only thing on their mind is $$$ and they'll keep fishing to the last fish is caught......they'll also be the first one's to complain when the stock's are low.....it's not our fault they say....why are the stocks low,,cause they cheat like a mother......I know of one scalloper who would get his 12 tote limit, then get another 6,shuck those and sell off the boat on the dock...he got caught...I know this guy well...after that even I couldn't get one meat from him.....now those six extra totes he use to get on every trip out are still stock on the ocean bottom....the law can work, if enforced.


possesion cover's all...12 only..home... car..truck..boat...pen//// and that goes for 3 guys in a truck doesn't mean 36....I also think they should close/stop all comm. herring fishing for 7 years.


:kewl: Concur

Yer still grumpy though...

:hihi:

YEA WHAT HE SAID CAPESAMS

The boat owners would have to self police themselves I guess :huh: All I am saying is that if you take that privilige away from them, most will cheat the system anyway and sell direct. I don't see cheating getting less if dockside sales are not touched.

as for herring i am under the impresion that river/bluebacks hang out and party with atlantic sea herring.. how is a trawler going to know what fish is what on the 'blippah' and not scoop up the wrong species....


That's my impression too but I was hoping for some real concrete (or semi-concrete) information if possible...

i hate to say it but i would not be suprised to see 'no fishing zones' like they have in california happen out here. if you cant regulate, simply shut it down until you have a good enough recovery.

I don't want to see no fishing zones. If you get a no fishing zone its likely to stay no fishing. What I would support is closing areas to specific gear types with predefined steps to reopen a particular area. So if scup was hammered in Buzzards Bay (yeh right) and it was determined the prime spawning area, you could close the area to say comm and rec suppin' but still rod & reel for bass. Say that it was determined that every year the herring move from the ocean inshore in January thru March, you close off the area to pair trawls. Or you have a prime cod spawning ground during a three month window, it gets closed too so that the more extreme pressure is not applied at the most critical time for the species. I dunno, seems simple to me, I don't see why it can't be applied (other than the occasional and tradition fox guarding henhouse fisheries managment councils)...

John,
I hope to get writen comments in on the dockside sales thing by the meeting, but I'm leaving for Geroge's bank tomorrow, so it might not be possible. As far as dockside sale goes, I have no problme with the guys selling crabs and lobsters, but I have a big problem with finfish. It is illegal (under Federal law)for any federally permitteed vessel to commercialize fish caught on a recreational trip. This means that, unless they did special commercial trips, any party boat would be unable to legally sell fish. Same goes for charter boats. I am concerned that the finfish provisions, as currently written would facilitate this iollegal activity.

As far as the herring goes I think the rules should be strictly enforced. Twelve fish is the possession limit, so twelve should be the max allowable in any pen. Frankly I'd like to see them shut the entire herring fishery for a couple of years to give the fish time to recover. I hear from DEM that almost all of the fish in the runs this year are first time spawners.

...Or you have a prime cod spawning ground during a three month window, it gets closed too so that the more extreme pressure is not applied at the most critical time for the species. I dunno, seems simple to me, I don't see why it can't be applied (other than the occasional and tradition fox guarding henhouse fisheries managment councils)...

Don't they do this already?

I'd like to see them shut the entire herring fishery for a couple of years to give the fish time to recover..

This may be the only solution...Sadly.
I'm all for it if it will help the fishery.

stage 1 of the no fishing zones- the herring ladders :(

Don't they do this already?
With cod in some areas they do but probably not enough areas. There has been some issues with an area off Boston Harbor getting slammed when a rolling closure to protect spawning fish would be ideal. I'm very shaky on those particular details thought so don't quote me on that particular issue :hee:

This may be the only solution...Sadly.
I'm all for it if it will help the fishery.

But what is the ROOT of the herring decline? First in CT and now in areas of RI?

"Keeping mind that this has been a long time practice in RI."

My feeling is that just because it has been a long time practice does not make it right! IMO this is in large part a fundemental problem with the comm fishery...it has many rules that are the way they are because we did it that way before. It is wrong, technically against current law and should be disallowed.



Re: herring pens. The take limit should be firmly enforced (whether 0 or 100 per day...whatever the number) if someone keeps them alive in a pen, it does not change the take limit. IMO there is a still lot of late night raids and people taking 100's when the limit is 12. Frankly I have no problem giving up herring (I don't want to, but I gladly would for the benfit of the species BUT I want to see the comm guys give them up as well...not just a modest cut...a give up. ) The last few years have been banner herring hauls for many, combine this with the lack of other forage fish during a bass rebound and here is the problem. Shut it all down (comm and rec for 5 years...fine by me) and make forage fish restoration a top priority.

Guys,
FWIW, I just heard today that the NEFMC sent Diodati a letter severely reprimanding the State of MA for allowing the commercial harvest of cod last winter to exceed their own (MA set) limit by a factor of about 4 times. Probably all dur to the gill netters setting on that inshore run of spawning fish in March.

That practice has been going on for years, most people know how I feel about commercial fisherman. The ones I have met are overworked, underpaid and, under apreciated. If they can make a few extra bucks in there pocket then I say let them. My other question is if they are licenced then why can't they sell to whoever they want? its simply cutting out the middle man, why first sell wholesale then have to buy at retail? anyway, I hope that the practice of selling boatside stays alive and well, it is one of those little things that make rhode island so special.

I agree with eel man, as long as it still gets reported into quotas etc.. if they start selling for cash under the table, then the quotas are off and things get a bit screwy... I think personally on some species, commercial fisherman take alot more blame than they deserve; Narragansett Bay has no winter flounder at al; the take was high for a while and then crashed in the mid 80's... some evidence points to environmental conditions changing (not just pollution, but temperature etc..) which has a profound impact on recruitment...

kind of off topic; my bad, too much coffee, work and not enough sleep!!!

While I agree allowing guys to make some more coin by not needing to go thru a middleman, above all, accurate records would need to be kept, especially with species under quota. I'm less concerened on species not under quota.

Any last minute comment?

Not like the fish houses keep accurate records as it is... :rollem:

Not like the fish houses keep accurate records as it is... :rollem:

I agree but it may be easier for the greatly understaffed inspection record keeper people to access :hee: