Nationalize the oil industry. Speculation is driving prices out of control. Industry anylysts speculate (ie: they use the "what if a dinosaur eats my house" theory, nevermind that dinosaurs have been extinct for a couple million years there is DNA cloning you know, sooooo it could happen, maybe, I think) The King in Saudi Arabia dies and zing up go the prices, "what's gonna happen there with the King gone? Nevermind he has been a vegetable for three years before he died and his brother, now the new King, has been running the country for the last three years but you know, again, something could happen so, speculate on what could happen and up they go. Hurricane Katrina wipes out the mid Gulf coast and oil rigs are down, speculate and zing agian up they go ( actually they last a day and a half and most are in full production again0 but all you need is a threat and the specualtion thereof and we get bent over at the pump.

In 1989 there were over three hundred refineries in the godd 'ol U.S. of A. The tree huggers lobbyist got through more stringent laws and we are dwon to 2/3rds of that number so fuel production goes through the floor here. The reason is that the oil companies don't want to spend profits refining the refining plants, that will cut into profits and the CEO doesn't get his usual 22 million dollar yearly bonus. So shut down the plants lay off a thousand or two workers and we all get fattewr up here in the head office. The American way.

The individual States could ease up, temporarily of course, on thier fuel taxes. Here in Massachusetts alone something like .62 cents a gallon. The would help.

The National Goverment could freeze prices with a ceiling. A nationalization would aloow the govt. to set prices, build new plants and control distribution and allow exploration in untapped areas due to national crisis. The lobbyists woiuld have a coronary of course.

Soon it will be 3.00 a gallon. No one seems to care in govt. Everyone still wants their big SUV's. Course if we all stopped driving for a day the oil industry would use the lack of sales and speculate the looses and drive prices up to regain those losses. It, along with the insurance business and Credit cards has to be the biggest legal theft operation around and no one cares but the little guys who just want to put a couple gallons in the tank and take mom and the kids out for a pizza but can't because they now have to limit thier spending so Dad can have fuel to drive to work and they can't buy what they used to at the store cuase they need that extra 30 bucks a week for the store who raised their prices cause you gotta ship food and commodities by truck and the fuel costs have to be absorbed by the consumers or else profits will go down. We are so screwed it isn't funny.

Anyone who voted for Bush and his cronies should be ashamed of themselves. Hope you are happy when inflation spirals cause of this. Do you think this is utopia? But of course GW doesn't have the balls to insult the very industry that got his father his fortune and by way of him his own. He is making money from this, lot's of it. He should be impeached!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :realmad:

the oil industry...... along with the insurance business and Credit cards has to be the biggest legal theft operation around :realmad:

And people won't drive less---they'll just charge their gas to their credit card, which charges 25% interest. :doh:

It is always us peons that have to PAY for all this BS!

What about the senate trying to eliminate the Estate Tax that applies to the richest 2% of the Americans?! If they pass it in Seot the millionaires will save close to $1 trillion dollars in the first 10 yrs - that tax burden would shift to US and the future generations. http://www.political.moveon.org/estatetax/

Not to hijack your thread Flaptail.

3 yrs ago my 12 yr old Toy PU had to be retired. Couldn't afford another PU (didn't want to spend $20K+ was more like it) so I got a sub-compact Corolla stripper instead (30 mpg). Yeah, it stinks, but I saved a lot in gas $$. I put that into my hobbies instead. :) I want another PU and a boat, but with the fuel prices so high - just NOT going to happen. I put on a roof rack last summer and have no excuses now to why I can't transport my 1 pc rods. My boat will be a kayak..... trolling T&B .... lol. Heck, an 11 pt deer fit in the truck w/ the limbs hanging out - darn I wish i took a pic of it!$%

I didn't vote for that beady eyed bastid GW - no way. If his dumb brother, Jeb runs I won't vote for him either.

There isn't any place to go any more - ya can't hide/runaway from it. :(

Just spoke w/ the mailman a little earlier - he was listening to the radio and gas prices will be $3.00+ ......... ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Flap - stick to fishing and let WeeWee solve the economic crises :D

Really, do you think the Government could manage the energy markets . . . they have a pretty shoddy record as a "business" (ie the TSA).

Steve in Mass should chime in soon :D

Hello Prince of Darkness....

But the EPA did remove all polution controls for the next couple weeks :tooth:

This is just a subset on what is wrong with the eltie in business today and the elite in that big house with the white columns....

God I love this country and my fellow Americans, but I now loathe with a passion the effin "brain trust" running this country.

Fuel has gone from $25 a barrell to over $70 in 4 years and it is blamed, primarily, on purchasing competition from China and India and a little of our glutonous usage.

We are waging a war that may or may not have been started as a mistake, (bad intellignece of a bad bill of goods?), err, I mean democratization of Iraq to create democracy in the Middle East (I truly hope but I am not as hopeful) to create the next Islamic Republic, eff up after eff up by the current Administration's brain trust, trying to push reality (while ignoring often pragmatic adive from people that have SUCESSFULLY managed issues like these) through a neo-conservative playdough prism. If you tell yourself a lie often enough you will start to believe it.

If you say Nucular for god know how many years instead of Nuclear (even though it is one of the pillars of engery for an energy guy), you can get away with it...

And before anyone jumps on my stink, I will not tow a party line. I don't look at this as a right or left issue, I feel it is a glaring lack of competence on the part of this administration that has fumbled item after item and pushed stupid agenda after stupid agenda. They have spent the goodwill and support of the American people and the world on one colossal eff up after another. Had there been a different person / team at the helm, say a McCain or someone with integrity and competence at the helm.

This is not new for me, I have been feeling this since before we went in to Iraq (though I supported it based on the bill of good sold) while even suspecting that this was a planned event for some time. I am just running out of patience. And to think someone thought I was a right wing nut....

Damn, I went off tangent on that rant. Oh yeh, the oil compaines are making money hand over foot. Never have they made this much. I wonder if they offshored (as in over seas) their offshore platform and refinery engineers??? Back to work....

Oh yeah and get rid of the I.R.S. and go to a national sales tax. Even a glass eye in a dog's ass could see that they would get less ripped off than they do now by loopholes and people just not reporting all they earn. This country is being dragged through the mud by the dumbest ( he had the lowest IQ score of any president ever tested) president and administration to date. Where's Lee Harvey when you really need him?

Bush---> :hang:

Had there been a different person / team at the helm, say a McCain or someone with integrity and competence at the helm.

Unfortunately, you will never see McCain or any other man of integrity or competence......because they are to smart to try and run for office. A man of integrity usually holds that as sacred to himself with an extreme sense of pride as part of his character. But the political parties in this country (all of them) and the media (both left and right) like to take a man's character and completely destroy it. A man who has integrity will not allow this to happen to him or his family. What they did to McCain in the media was disgraceful and after seeing that, most people with integrity, and any common sense at all, will stay away.

Pretty much why Powell said "Thanks, but no Thanks".

That leaves a constant parade of Chuckleheads trying to, and currently, running this country. Why did Bu$h defeat Johnny K.......because the Evil known is preferable to the Evil unknown...

Just look at what '08 is sizing up to be......Arnold against Hillary.... :wall: Screw that....I'm writing in Hugh Hefner...

CNN today.

"There's no question gas will hit $4 a gallon," Ben Brockwell, director of pricing at the Oil Price Information Service, said. OPIS tracks wholesale and retail oil prices and provides pricing information for AAA's daily reports on fuel prices.

Brockwell said with gasoline prices now exceeding $3 a gallon before even reaching the wholesale level, it "doesn't take a genius" to expect retail prices to hit $4 a gallon soon.

"Consumers haven't seen the worst of it yet," Brockwell said.

He expects consumers in the Southeast and Northeast to be pinched first, following the impact of Hurricane Katrina on the Gulf Coast region. :exp:

I'm thinking of trading my gas pick-up to a diesel and burning vegetable oil.

http://www.greasecar.com/

I'm thinking of trading my gas pick-up to a diesel and burning vegetable oil.

http://www.greasecar.com/
Better check veggie oil first, any agricultural product is more oil driven than you think.

Just got back from a gas run to head up to the Cape.

Last night, the Hess station was $2.71 and I said, "naw, only went up 2 cents today, how much more could it go up by tomorrow?" :rollem:

Today, it was $2.89 and I had to wait 20 minutes to pump. Reason for the lines was, the Mobil station across the street was $3.39/9 :eek: and the Shell down the road was $2.99. All the time I'm waiting to pump, I'm sweating my ass off because there's a Mystic tanker truck making a delivery and you just know the price is going up after that :wall: I managed to get in under the wire :doh:

Now, here's the kicker. Of all of the oil companies, Hess should be the least affected by this because they refine a lot of their gas in NJ :af:

John, I can't argue with anything you said. I feel the same way. I've given this guy the benefit of the doubt for 5 years now, and all I can conclude is, I voted for Senor Effup back in 2000. Not that either time, there was much of a choice. I think TDF hit it right on the head----anyone with a lick of sense or self-respect wouldn't want to pimp himself the way you have to in order to win the job. :hs:

It won't be Arnold vs anybody anytime soon, unless we happen to annex Austria in the interim ;)

Better check veggie oil first, any agricultural product is more oil driven than you think.

I'm not talking about brand-new store bought veggie oil, I'm talking about recycling the oil used from cooking at restaurants, it's free for the taking and your car gets to smell like french fries and eggrolls :drool: .

I like the idea of the bio-diesel fuel. Re-refined waste oil from fast food joints.

the only problem is that it is hard to find a place to refuel. the beauty of the bio-diesel system is that there are no modifications to a true diesel engine.

The same engine can run either of the fuels or a mixture of the 2. so you are running low on fuel, you can still stop and fill up with real diesel at the pump.


http://www.biodiesel.org/

I like the idea of the bio-diesel fuel. Re-refined waste oil from fast food joints.

the only problem is that it is hard to find a place to refuel. the beauty of the bio-diesel system is that there are no modifications to a true diesel engine.

The same engine can run either of the fuels or a mixture of the 2. so you are running low on fuel, you can still stop and fill up with real diesel at the pump.


http://www.biodiesel.org/

Most food joints I believe have to pay someone to haul this stuff away. I bet if you showed up offering to take it away for free they would jump at the chance. Almost every town across this country has a McD's and a chinese joint in it.

Well Chucklehead is about to addup, I mean undress, damn, must have aproblem in my speech Nulcearius, address the Nation....

Time for another Revolution ....

Where's Lee Harvey when you really need him?

Bush---> :hang:

Advocating the presidents' assasination even in gest just ain't funny regardless of how much hate you have for him.

Shame on you. :hs:

Advocating the presidents' assasination even in gest just ain't funny regardless of how much hate you have for him.

Shame on you. :hs:

I would advocate impeaching him at this point but that would leave the "mastermind" with the reigns. Can you impeach an administration?

Advocating the presidents' assasination even in gest just ain't funny regardless of how much hate you have for him.

Shame on you. :hs:

Let's just call it a "Friendly Fire Incident" and no, no shame on me, shame on that man for lying baldface to us and scaring two thirds of the nation into beleiving he was there man. God, more than half this country is more stupid than I thought possible in this day and age. Depressing to say the least. If he and Cheney got whacked tommorow it would be too soon. Viva la revolution!!!!!!!!!! Time to take back our country!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And damm you all who think not! :zup:

Definitely time for a good old fashioned uprising...I have been saying it for some time now...reform is sorely needed! :rtfm:

oh my god... how did i miss this thread . let me pause...... inhale, and enjoy the arroma of bush bashing.

Ahh i love it.

while i always sound like a dumbass complaining about the guys in the whitehouse, you guys put it in a better perspective.


:thanks:



oh..... down with BUSH CO. :rocketem:

If he and Cheney got whacked tommorow it would be too soon. Viva la revolution!!!!!!!!!! Time to take back our country!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And damm you all who think not! :zup:

WHAT!!!!

You're talking about the KILLING of the president and vice president!!!

Time to take back our country?We never lost it!The only thing lost here is your mind!

You can damn me all you want and call me stupid all you want but I'll never support the killing of another American for political reasons!And before you say that's what the president is doing by sending young Americans to Iraq remember you said "If he and Cheney got whacked tomorrow it would be to soon".You may hate them but they ARE Americans.

Viva la revolution!!!!! you say.The last time Americans killed Americans 650,000 died in this thing we call the Civil War.Is that what you want?

Sick :yak4: :yak4: :yak4:

they are war criminals after all... :rotf3:

Basswipe - I will debate this a little if you like - though everyone please remember that we're a fishing site and not a political site.


The best thing I can say about the brain trust in the White House is that they are so far removed from what is happening to Joe American that they are just being stupid and bumbling idiots. Worst case is that they are really trying to not give a hoot to those not in their circle and sticking it to us in the process.

Even George Senior had a lack of touchy feely with the middle class, though I do think he cared and was actually a decent guy who tried and fairly often succeeded in making the right decisions. Unfortunately, Junior is not a chip off the old blockhead.

The current brain trust, heretofore referred to as the "BT", have made a mockery of the integrity of what America has stood for. No longer are we the shining light of the world, we have a real bad blink goin' on.

The only real shining light I have seen from this admin is in the days following 9-11 that they got on the stick (where they and previous Prez's should have been) and went into the Taliban and at minimum, seriously degraded the Al Queda network. It has been downhill domestically and foreign ever scince. Before Iraq, we had our extremely talented men and women of the armed forces, specifically Special Forces, in many countries around the world going after these bastards with a fair amount of success.

While this was going on (and before 9/11 actually) they were already gearing up for Iraq. Building facilities, repositioning forces and equipment. Aa the BT had put together a nice little package to take care of Iraq. Remove Sadam, not a bad thing by any stretch, the man was evil. BUT they had no plan for AFTER, the nation building that before 9/11 that this administration did not believe. They completely disregarded the people with the experience of nation building (didn't fit the model), guys like Gen Garner (northern Iraq after Gulf 1) - in fact after they realized the screwed up they briefly called him back for a few months, said thanks, and sent him on his way. The BT neglected to respond to what the senior Special Forces people recommended and what they could do working with the locals to stabilize. And those that had experience in Kosovo. They did not work with the exiting Iraqi army, a common practice to bring the old army to the new army and keeping a lot of the bad guys from runnig off with their guns. How many would we be fighting if we worked with instead of against them? Brought them into the fold? They usually ignored the recomendations of the then Secretary of State, perhaps the one with the most integrity (real or manufactured) in that first term.

The bad money trail in reconstruction.

Using private firms to guard and protect instead of smart forces to win hearts and minds (it has worked).

Not having enough troops in country to start (that was time sensitive BTW, they could not wait any longer as good ground time was running out due to excessive weather). Not having enough troops after the take over to establish and maintain order.

Not having enough gear and the right gear to equip our people over there properly. That is what saddens me most, our people are being misled over there because the current brin trust believes enough that if they do A then B will surely happen. They are too slow to to react when necessary and too dumb to be proactive. And our guys are paying for it. The civilian leadership of the military is their for a purpose but with that purpose comes great responsibility to those guys and gals over there. That responsibility has been neglected.

What else?? Tax cuts for the wealthiest. An abominable Medicare package to take care of the Pharmas. The New Islamic Republic of Iraq. The environment. China. Big Biz. and BIG OIL. Corporate Welfare. Seperation of everyone else's church from state. Unfunded NCLB. Forget about I.D. The list goes on.

This admin has catered to the influential and weathly, especially if you are in Oil. How many lost and poor waged jobs are getting further squeezed whild the Big Oil makes hundreds of Billions of profit a year? At what point does corporate greed superceed the best interests of the nation? And then the J.O. goes and grants extra special favoritism to the Oil companies so they can make MORE money with MORE tax incentives!!!!!!! Clinton was a borderline loser, intelligent in some areas and a screw up in others. Bush and Co has been tripping over themselves so badly it hurts to watch it. It is sickening to watch it. It is a crime against America that too many of our people are paying for with their lives and futures.

Integrity my ass!

I am pissed off that Exxon Mobil is making 7 trillion dollars every quarter. 7 f-in Trillion Dollars!!!!! So if they sold gas for $2 a gallon they would still make over 5 trillion dollars a quarter. People have to use gas so trying to make a statement by not buying gas won't work-but I don't have to buy Exxon Mobil gas. I can buy Shell or Citco or BP. If everyone in America stopped buying Exxon Mobil gas for a month that would mean something. That would force the price down. So I am boycoting Exxon. I am pissed. Someone farts near a refinery and the price of gas goes up 5 cents. The Wall Street Journal says the price is driven up by supply and demand. And demand is high and supply is low. Well if supply is low then down make so much f-in money for a few months until you get us the supply back. And home heating oil- don't get me started. You get a cold few days in New England and heating oil goes up 25 cents a gallon. Like it is not supposed to get cold in New England. I am sick of being ripped off by big oil. Power to the People. F*ck Exxon.

NO ONE has the right to to advocate the KILLLING of a another American for political beliefs plain and simple.It just ain't a matter of debate.

John,I simply don't understand any defense of politics that advocates killing the president.

I don't like G.W.Bush but I don't want to kill him.

You're right it is a fishing site.Unfortunately some turned a natural disaster into political BS long before I posted.

they are war criminals after all... :rotf3:

Yup and Saddam's a swell fella.

NO ONE has the right to to advocate the KILLLING of a another American for political beliefs plain and simple.It just ain't a matter of debate.

John,I simply don't understand any defense of politics that advocates killing the president.

I don't like G.W.Bush but I don't want to kill him.

You're right it is a fishing site.Unfortunately some turned a natural disaster into political BS long before I posted.

And I'm willing to bet the Flap wouldn't seriously advocate killing the president or go as far as to order the hit. On the other other hand, I simply don't understand any defense of incompetence that is resulting in the loss of fellow Americans. This guy is supposed to work for us. We're not supposed to work for fat cats to go ka-ching

:kewl: WHAT!!!!

You're talking about the KILLING of the president and vice president!!!

Time to take back our country?We never lost it!The only thing lost here is your mind!

You can damn me all you want and call me stupid all you want but I'll never support the killing of another American for political reasons!And before you say that's what the president is doing by sending young Americans to Iraq remember you said "If he and Cheney got whacked tomorrow it would be to soon".You may hate them but they ARE Americans.

Viva la revolution!!!!! you say.The last time Americans killed Americans 650,000 died in this thing we call the Civil War.Is that what you want?

Sick :yak4: :yak4: :yak4:

I suppose then you were in favor of slavery? Of two classes of people? Or that our forefathers should necver have started the rvolutionary war and we should all be still under the queen's rule as a colony?

I am not advocating, as John said, a "hit" but if it was to happen I wouldn't shed a tear. The CIA and our govt. has plns to take out other foriegn and domestic threats. In the service when in battle it is known to be commonplace to take out a an officer who was lnown to be incompetent inorder to survive and further someone who is and kinows what they are doing. Your blind my friend and the actions of the administration are blinding you. Wake up and smell the roses. I love this country, my brother lies in a cemetary in Worcester cause he loved it too and went off to fight in a jungle for a cause sold to us by a previous corrupt president and administration and at 19 came home after only 11 days in a glass covered box where my mother could not touch his face one last time and they would not tell us if his entire body had been found. Now we buy tee shirts at Old Navy made in that country we once said was going to cuase a domino effect and turn the world red. We got sold the same bill of goods in Iraq. He has to go and by any means nescesary and the people of this counrty have to stand up and do whatever we need to do to get the economy back in line as the spiral has started, equal healthcare for all, adequate living conditions, racial harmony and respect in the world. The muslim world is not our world or our culture. The tribal system and islam will never really embrace our view of democracy and they will always be fighting one another for control of thier destiny.

You live with blinders on, it must be nice to be oblivious, your just the kind of guy GW and his crew dream about. That's not what made this country great it's whats tearing us apart. Have a nice day! Your fellow American, Flaptail

My 2 cents...

While the President has a certain amount of responsibility for the economic situation in the country real change MUST COME FROM CONGRESS. They do what they want and point the finger at the President. We need a Regan style conservative, the economic posperity we realized in the 90's were a result of his policies in the 80's, unfortunately the economic cycle is one to two adminstrations after the policies are put in place. I will not argue that GW is a fool.

BTW what firms have the most capability to rebuild the Gulf Coast, soon we'll be hearing that Bush created the Hurrcaine Katrina so his company would get more government contracts..................

Bush didnt create katrina, we all did. its called global climate change, global warming, etc...

The crisis with OIL is not the supply but WHO controls it.
There is no need to kill anyone to change things. 30 years ago
the evil USSR (Russia) appeared to be in total control of its population
using totalitarian tactics of force , lies and propaganda. That regime
ended when the population excercised non-violent action to rid itself
of communist domination. We have the means to rid ourselves of
corporate domination. Our democracy is protecting the ruling (corporate)
class and is not serving the needs of most Americans. We have a great
country and political system. The average American must realize
they have more power to change things as a group.

Bush didnt create katrina, we all did. its called global climate change, global warming, etc...

And don't forget nature and our number simply coming up. Sure global climate change and warming has a small part but that what it is, a small part. Hurricanes and Typhoons predated the industrial revolution by a billion or so years...

Flap, keep it up and you're going to be investigated by the Secret Service, no joke.

If it's any comfort to you, market conditions now exist where the refiners of oil now have an economic incentive to expand refinery capacity. Does anyone remember when gas was real cheap (below $0.75 a gallon in the '90's) and gas and oil companies were laying people off by the thousands? This is the flip side of that.

Even with added capacity, we have the challenge of rising consumption from China and India to deal with, as their economies are exploding.

For all you Bush bashers, consider this: high oil prices are not good for the economy. Our whole way of life is driven by oil. Higher oil prices act as a tax on us consumers and drives up the cost of doing business. The last four recessions have been preceded by oil going through $40 per bbl. We are experiencing a weird anomaly right now where the economy doesn't seem to be taking a huge hit - yet, from oil that is now at $70 per bbl, largely because economies in most developed countries are growing concurrently.

President Bush would never want the economy to be jeopardized - for obvious political reasons. We are all watching the price of oil, which could literally push us into a recession in three to six months if conditions persist. That is one reason why the President has released strategic reserves, to offset supply disruption from the recent hurricane. The Gulf Coast provides 40% of our gas and oil.

In the meantime, cut your consumption where you can. Oil is a self-correcting commodity. If it goes to a certain level, people just won't buy it. Carpool, use mass transit, switch to more fuel efficient vehicles, or just walk.

Ben I know it's no joke. I may have gone overboard but GW should be at least impeached for if anything else incompetence. I see he just inlisted his Dad and Clinton for a sort of Tsunami II relief drive and they have more troops lined up to go in. Now they are talking about the value of rebuilding the city of New Orleans. Seems to me that though the experts say this was a once in a 200 year storm doesn't mean it can't happen again ( is that speculation? ) Should remove the place to higher ground if any exists around there. As you can see GW is not my fav president and neither was the guy before him or before him as well. The real decent smart and deserving individuals who should be our commader and chief won't run and that's a shame, course you need bucks too, loadas of them or friends with it. If I run would you help me financially? :scatter:

Oh and another thing he has not released strategic reserves only loosened epa restrictions on blending.

Gotta agree with John on that one Nebe;
Extreme weather events are part of life (before we were here)
Floods, hurricanes etc.. are only a problem when people are affected; if that happened in an uninhabited jungle it wouldnt have been a big deal;
We created Katrina ONLY in the sense that A. People lived in a city below sea level
B. Leavees were built to handle only a cat 3 hurricane
C. People will build there again.

There is debate that warming has increased the frequency and strength of hurricanes; the data I have seen leaves me skeptical at best for now. Rising sea level has a decent effect; down in the gulf coast sea level is rising faster (actually the land is sinking) than New England. This rise (say ~0.75cm/yr) is nothing when added to a 20ft surge; BUT at that rate, sea level is ~12" higher relative to that region than it was when camille hit.... those numbers are approximate done quote me... but ballpark....

For you guys smart with numbers and economics, will the post labor day decrease in demand off-set the prices at all?

Have we ever had a natural catastrophe in recent history that has taken out an entire U.S. City? N.O. was only ONE of several areas drastically hit by this storm. I don't think we have precedent for this, give the prez a break, there's only so much he can do in so little time. This is being billed as the WORST natural disaster in U.S. history! :(

The end is near! Fish Hard!
And look at the HOTTIE thread! :laugha:

I can imagine the ease with which you all would have accepted the current administrations purchase of five thousand rescue boats, a fleet of amphibious personel carriers, floating bridges, rebuilt levies, increased national guard presence in New Orleans and the appropriation of billions of US taxpayer dollars just waiting for a category 5 hurricane to slam into new Orleans. If Bush propsed any of this 6 months ago you would have all been calling for a straight jacket. This administration has many faults, however responding to catastrophic tradgedy is clearly not one of them. (See 9/11, the tsunami, the Sudan and countless other heroic acts of selflessness doled out around the world on a daily basis). I have seen some stupid comments on this board, but blaming the administration for their response to this tradgedy only a few days since the hurricane takes the cake. Save you rabid anti-GW rhetoric for your lay-up arguments like WMD and your gal Cindy Sheehan. This storm has/will cause damage the like of which our country has never seen. To be playing armchair quarterback 72 hours after the fact is borderline insanity.

With all the talk of revolution and all, it seems like a good time to post it:

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security..."

I agree with Flaptail. Viva la Revolution!

Ok....so you say you want a revolution....wwww....eee..llllll...lllll

So we all want a revolution. That should go smoothly. Aside from the sheer number of deaths that would result from both sides. Lets assume the freedom fighters win. Now what....do you think the future political leaders could come to a solution.

One side is still going to lean left, the other right. Sure you might find plenty willing to meet in the middle ground, but I think you might find that people are sort of opinionated.

If I was going to agree to a revolt. I would want to make sure that we went back to our original constitution and original government.

I do not want my $$$ seized through taxation and then redistributed to the less fortunate. If anything was going to cause me to revolt it is the wealth redistribution and most other social programs. I don't want welfare in my new government. I do not want socialized medicine. I do not want any more Socialism in my new government. I want to basically close our borders. I want to be an isolationist. And that is just one example.

Do you think the people of this country could collectively come up with a better system?

Our present system is welfare for the Rich !!! Tax loopholes etc.

It's great to see all the people across the nation who were afraid to speak out coming out of the woodwork.

Not really the best time of course, but it's resulting in some long overdue dialog about what is really going on in this nation.

Ok....so you say you want a revolution....wwww....eee..llllll...lllll

So we all want a revolution. That should go smoothly. Aside from the sheer number of deaths that would result from both sides. Lets assume the freedom fighters win. Now what....do you think the future political leaders could come to a solution.

One side is still going to lean left, the other right. Sure you might find plenty willing to meet in the middle ground, but I think you might find that people are sort of opinionated.

If I was going to agree to a revolt. I would want to make sure that we went back to our original constitution and original government.

I do not want my $$$ seized through taxation and then redistributed to the less fortunate. If anything was going to cause me to revolt it is the wealth redistribution and most other social programs. I don't want welfare in my new government. I do not want socialized medicine. I do not want any more Socialism in my new government. I want to basically close our borders. I want to be an isolationist. And that is just one example.

Do you think the people of this country could collectively come up with a better system?


We have done it a couple times already. National sales tax is long overdue and junk the IRS too many loopholes and tort lawyers. Socialized medicine here could not be compared to countrys who have it and are less fortunate and not as terchnology endowed as we are. It could work and should be. Natiuonal defense is needed more now than ever in the last 60 years but our focus must be on the new conflict not the old military doctrine. Our enemies are invisible and we must find a way to make them visible and when found leave not a trace of thier ever have walked this planet. Religion must be looked at and the affect it has on the minds of those who are easily swayed by preachers in 1000 dollar suits or turbans who seek to control thier very minds and hearts. Respect, kindness and caring for each other must be the national priority not the passages of the bible as defined by tel-evangilists. If I had to say what I believe in most those three things are my guiding light. God or whatever force there is I am sure would agree with those fundemental values as a guide for everyones lives. Pat Robertson and Osama Bin Laden are not really that far apart in thier methodologies.

Above all, the truth plain and simple is what is easily brushed aside in govt. these days.

I do agree that it is now time to close our borders, rethink our national path and put America and Americans first.

And I'm willing to bet the Flap wouldn't seriously advocate killing the president or go as far as to order the hit. On the other other hand, I simply don't understand any defense of incompetence that is resulting in the loss of fellow Americans. This guy is supposed to work for us. We're not supposed to work for fat cats to go ka-ching

I ain't defending Bush John.I don't really like the guy either...but a person can't around saying that killing the pres. would be good thing even if he's joking.

:kewl:

I suppose then you were in favor of slavery? Of two classes of people? Or that our forefathers should necver have started the rvolutionary war and we should all be still under the queen's rule as a colony?

I am not advocating, as John said, a "hit" but if it was to happen I wouldn't shed a tear. The CIA and our govt. has plns to take out other foriegn and domestic threats. In the service when in battle it is known to be commonplace to take out a an officer who was lnown to be incompetent inorder to survive and further someone who is and kinows what they are doing. Your blind my friend and the actions of the administration are blinding you. Wake up and smell the roses. I love this country, my brother lies in a cemetary in Worcester cause he loved it too and went off to fight in a jungle for a cause sold to us by a previous corrupt president and administration and at 19 came home after only 11 days in a glass covered box where my mother could not touch his face one last time and they would not tell us if his entire body had been found. Now we buy tee shirts at Old Navy made in that country we once said was going to cuase a domino effect and turn the world red. We got sold the same bill of goods in Iraq. He has to go and by any means nescesary and the people of this counrty have to stand up and do whatever we need to do to get the economy back in line as the spiral has started, equal healthcare for all, adequate living conditions, racial harmony and respect in the world. The muslim world is not our world or our culture. The tribal system and islam will never really embrace our view of democracy and they will always be fighting one another for control of thier destiny.

You live with blinders on, it must be nice to be oblivious, your just the kind of guy GW and his crew dream about. That's not what made this country great it's whats tearing us apart. Have a nice day! Your fellow American, Flaptail

Of course I don't support slavery.What a dumb thing to ask.

You just don't get it chief.I don't support Bush in any way,shape or form.The only thing I'm pointing out to you is that you've made several statements in support of the non-accidental death of the president and that's just wrong and shows that you don't think before you speak.Now you recant and say you don't advocate that yet you wouldn't shed a tear if he did get assasinated.
Do you think the assasination of Kennedy was a good thing?No.Well why not he is the president who put us in Vietnam.

Let me ask you this:If you had personal knowledge of an assasination plot against the president would you do anything to prevent it?Think before answer this one.

BTW.If you think the only people reading these politcal discussions are just us fisherman you be the one living with blinders on.Take FWW's advice.The net is one way the the Secret Service finds people who make dumb statements.

Have a nice day!Your fellow American.

I'm done.

Hmmm........... :huh: Actually, I think he is doing one hell of a job of killing himself and his party politically. So no need to fear, he is already dead in that vein. America is waking up to the fact as well and thats a good thing. You seem to have all the answers, why don't you run...... :bl:

Flap the republicans will be in power forever.... can you say voting machines with no paper trail :rtfm:

Hmmm........... :huh: You seem to have all the answers, why don't you run...... :bl:

:hs:

You need to go fishing because you're struggling real hard to comprehend what I'm getting at here chief. I'm tryin' to help you out.So one more time......

You can't make statements supporting,even in joking,the non-accidental death of the president.Why?Because you'll end up in the clink and what good can become of that?I'll tell you...not much.

Why would I say that?Read my previous posts.I don't like the guy.I'm so tired of death and destruction it makes me sick.And yet it would never occur to me to wish death upon the president.Isn't there enough death already,why keep adding to it?

As far as running for president...no thanks.With people like you out there I wouldn't even take the chance as I like being alive and able to fish.

Revolution........hmmm, sounds like the opportunity to wipe out Liberalism for good. Lets go for it.

hey im a tree hugger :zup:

Have we ever had a natural catastrophe in recent history that has taken out an entire U.S. City? N.O. was only ONE of several areas drastically hit by this storm. I don't think we have precedent for this, give the prez a break, there's only so much he can do in so little time. This is being billed as the WORST natural disaster in U.S. history! :(

Other than maybe Galveston (which has what, maybe a quarter of the population of NO?), there isn't another major US city that could be entirely taken out by a hurricane. Ben, hate to say this, but no hurricane expert anywhere is at all shocked at what happened down there--it's been predicted and modeled for years, and it happened exactly according to the "book".

Camille, the only prior comparable storm in my lifetime, was maybe half as big across as Katrina, and places like Biloxi and Gulfport were in fact devasted back then. As bad as Andrew was, it was a tiny storm in diameter and its swath of devastation was basically from Homestead to Coral Gables. People in Lauderdale or Boca only experienced gale force winds. What has changed since then is, the coastline has become more developed, everywhere. Mississippi being no exception. People bought houses without giving any thought to what would happen if a Big One came ashore.

But, the bottom line is, Nixon did more in a shorter time after Camille for the affected areas than GWB did. Hell, he didn't even cut short his 6 week vacation and fly back to DC until last Wednesday.

:hs:

You need to go fishing because you're struggling real hard to comprehend what I'm getting at here chief. I'm tryin' to help you out.So one more time......

You can't make statements supporting,even in joking,the non-accidental death of the president.Why?Because you'll end up in the clink and what good can become of that?I'll tell you...not much.

Why would I say that?Read my previous posts.I don't like the guy.I'm so tired of death and destruction it makes me sick.And yet it would never occur to me to wish death upon the president.Isn't there enough death already,why keep adding to it?

As far as running for president...no thanks.With people like you out there I wouldn't even take the chance as I like being alive and able to fish.


Basswipe, I do understand. I guess my frustration at seeing Americans in this sort of predicament is just so hard for me to comprehend. I know I would never really advocate the "taking out" of this guy but right now I cannot see how we as a country, as Americans can abide the incompetence any longer. That guy Brown, the head of FEMA, has had no prior experience in emergency response. He was the head for twelve years of the Arabian Horse Breeders and judges Association and only got the job because he was a college roomate of one of George Bush's campaign advisors. There are no words to describe how dis=heartening that is to me.

I feel sorry in a way for President Bush. Here was a guy who ran on his fathers name and won (?) out of total chaos with the current electoral system and who should have been in for only 4 years in a nondescript presidency. Along comes 9-11. Now he is thrust into a global and political situation that he was neither equipped or prepared for as someone who has the leadership capabilities or the knowledge of current world politics to handle. He just does not have the inteligence, on a personal level, or wisdom for the world arena, maybe business wise on a more local level but not as a world leader or diplomat.

I really do think with him and the current situation at hand that administration that now sits in residence in Washington needs to be removed before his term is over. Impeachment is called for, now, immediately. An unprecidented house cleaning of the presidency, vice presedency. Defense , State and Homeland Security and Fema shoul be immediatly removed and an interim govt. be installed. I knoww the chos that would create. American doller values would crash, the stock market would respond wildly but also the world opinion of what we would have done would also look more favorably on us. We must close our borders and look internally for a period. We must let the world know that we have to attend to our immediate family before we can participate in the global family, which after our house cleaning and our American family healing we will once again become partners with the world as a whole. We have to look to ourselves. To the goal of racial equality, raise the bar to commom standards for every American. Healthcare, decent housing, jobs need to be brought back home from overseas. Corporate greed needs to be curbed. Should the CEO of Levi's really get a 22 million dollar bonus for closing down the last three North American plants and sending them to Asia and latin America with the result of 3000 plus workers getting the pink slip?

It's time for a change before we go down as the romans, the greeks the egyptians and all the great civilization before us did. America was and is still a great experiment who is being watched by the world. The signs are there that we may have reached our Zenith and be headed on the downward side of our flight. We can recover but we need to change things and do it as soon as possible our collective futures and our childrens hang on the very prospect.

I think the US Government really showed the world their a$$ on this one! :lossinit: :bshake:

Steve--you can't impeach a President for incompetence. The Constitution makes it pretty clear---only for "high crimes and misdemeanors" committed while in office.

I think Bush should have asked his old man why Saddam was allowed to stay in power after the first Iraq war, too, before starting up with this one. And maybe listened to his dad more than he listened to guys like Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz. I blame Rumsfeld most of all for what has happened over there. It was his bright idea that the job could be done with a quarter of the troops we used in '91, and that we'd be welcomed with flowers and open arms as liberators :rollem:

Steve--you can't impeach a President for incompetence. The Constitution makes it pretty clear---only for "high crimes and misdemeanors" committed while in office.

I think Bush should have asked his old man why Saddam was allowed to stay in power after the first Iraq war, too, before starting up with this one. And maybe listened to his dad more than he listened to guys like Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz. I blame Rumsfeld most of all for what has happened over there. It was his bright idea that the job could be done with a quarter of the troops we used in '91, and that we'd be welcomed with flowers and open arms as liberators :rollem:

Mike, what was the impetus to remove Andrew Johnson after Lincoln was assinated? Wasn't it because he was incompetent? I don't really remember but I thought tht was it. Can a vote of no confidence be had if the commander and chief shows himself to be just that? It would be interesting to know. Can you shed some light on that aspect? Thanks.

Sorry typed too fast Lincoln wasn't "assinated" ( maybe in the political cartoons of the time) but assasinated. Sorry carry on.

Andrew Johnson was impeached on what were basically trumped-up charges. He was, first of all, a Democrat and replaced Lincoln's first term VP, Hannibal Hamblin, to create sort of a "unity" ticket during the Civil War. Secondly, he was a Southerner, from Tennessee. That made him hugely unpopular with the so-called "Radical Republicans" who wanted to punish the Confederacy during Reconstruction. And, they did everything they could to undermine his power.

What led to Johnson's impeachment and trial was that Congress enacted a law (that was probably unconstitutional to begin with) prohibiting the President from firing Caninet and other high level officers without the approval of the Senate, which was solidly controlled by the Republicans. Johnson defied the law and went ahead and fired an official who he felt wasn't following his administration's agenda. He broke the law, so it was easy to claim that he committed a "high crime" or at least a "misdemeanor". He was impeached by the Hosue, but was acquitted at his Senate trial by a single vote. He got to stay on as President but he was really powerless after that.

"No confidence" votes do exist in other democracies that have a Parliamentary system, where the Prime Minister or Premier is the leader of the party that controls the lower house of the Legislature. Not sure on this, but I don't believe they have scheduled elections like we do. A certain percentage of the Legislature can ask for elections or pass a "no confidence" resolution, and the citizens go to the polls shortly thereafter.

It's time for a change before we go down as the romans, the greeks the egyptians and all the great civilization before us did. America was and is still a great experiment who is being watched by the world. The signs are there that we may have reached our Zenith and be headed on the downward side of our flight. We can recover but we need to change things and do it as soon as possible our collective futures and our childrens hang on the very prospect.

I'd been afraid to say it (here anyways) but that's kind of how I feel about the country right now.

We need great leaders to make this country great again or we'll fall like our predecessors.

Or how about we regulate your paycheck? I am sure you wouldn't like that now would you?

Oh yeah and get rid of the I.R.S. and go to a national sales tax. Even a glass eye in a dog's ass could see that they would get less ripped off than they do now by loopholes and people just not reporting all they earn. This country is being dragged through the mud by the dumbest ( he had the lowest IQ score of any president ever tested) president and administration to date. Where's Lee Harvey when you really need him?

Bush---> :hang:

Or how about we regulate your paycheck? I am sure you wouldn't like that now would you?

It's regulated now. Ever see the deduction part of yours? Who do you think all those deductions go to? Next! :rtfm:

Hey Flaptail you can't be mad at George Bush and the tree hugging liberals at the same time. Bust derives income from the oil industry and the LEFT WINGNUT LIBERAL ELEMENT drives the public opinon against refinery expansion. We need more refineries to help get the prices down and the supply up, (what you said) such as drilling in the Alaskan tundra. I mean at least George Bush is in favor of refinery expansion. So Bush might actually be your new best friend if the prices plummet when he announces refinery expansion across the country.

Hey Flaptail you can't be mad at George Bush and the tree hugging liberals at the same time. Bust derives income from the oil industry and the LEFT WINGNUT LIBERAL ELEMENT drives the public opinon against refinery expansion. We need more refineries to help get the prices down and the supply up, (what you said) such as drilling in the Alaskan tundra. I mean at least George Bush is in favor of refinery expansion. So Bush might actually be your new best friend if the prices plummet when he announces refinery expansion across the country.

Swimmy, yes I can! I am mad at Georgie for not doing enough to stem the crisis and at the liberals for promoting such strict regulations that the oil companies won't build new plants. Course I am mad at the oil companies for thinking profit line first rather than the increased production that could be seen from newer updated and expanded plants that would have to meet the EPA standards which would eventually pay back the investment and reap profits. Also I am mad at the president and congress and the senate for not pushing the auto industry into new technologies for fuel like Hydrogen etc. that they already know will be a huge development and stand too make the country more independent on foriegn oil and energy and satify every tree huggers dreams at the same time. And I mad at Detroit for not doing it themselves. Jeez, looks like I am mad at everybody! I need a rest this government stuff is straining my little brain! :poke: :hidin:

flap, is the man getting you down?? :hihi:

Flap, I'm mad at YOU :rude:

:fishslap: