This is the announcement on Editing Posts:

As there are a lot of people that have been making statements in posts and then editing them shortly thereafter, I am changing the board to only allow edits for 5 minutes after the post. This will be on a trial basis and may become permanent and might not.

Please ask yourself if you really want to hit the enter key and submit what you typed.

Thanks,

John

this is up for a couple reasons, first please make sure that you say what you want to say before hitting enter. It has long been rude but allowed to make all kinds of posts then edit them out. More than a few people have been doing this lately and it has gone overboard. Second reason is that some people have been using it to take shots at others. I really want that to end. Discuss and issue, don't add fuel to a flame war - pleeeze

Thanks,

John

John, I was wondering if we can allow editing for a longer period of time now??? Members have been good lately it seems:angel:

John, I was wondering if we can allow editing for a longer period of time now??? Members have been good lately it seems:angel:

Went from 5 minutes to 30 - we'll see how it goes :tooth:

It is Winter JohnR and WE ALL KNOW WHAT SEEMS TO HAPPEN WITH SOME....................

Me being fast fingered and mind slow I appriciate the ability to post and then reread what I wrote after the gear smoke from my brain clears enough to see what I wrote. There have been some major sentences slaughtering on my part. Thanks John!

Members have been good lately it seems:angel:
I think that is because they can't edit thier posts.
I like the short edit time. More than enough time to fix errors.
I say..Leave it as is, seems to be working fine.:gf:

There's always "Preview Post" for fixing errors and seeing if your emoticons look the way ya want...

Went from 5 minutes to 30 - we'll see how it goes :tooth:
Seems to me that edit rule was "do as I say,not as I do"after you and your brother in law had a not so private spat not to long ago.It must be good to be KING because I could have read that all winter.:huh:

Seems to me that edit rule was "do as I say,not as I do"after you and your brother in law had a not so private spat not to long ago.It must be good to be KING because I could have read that all winter.:huh:

A lot of things "Seems to" you. But if you really must know, it was something a few of us had been discussing long before the little "spat". But no matter what any of us do here, you have no problem pointing what "seems to you" out, do you. And it is getting old for those of us that put in a lot of hours trying to run a good site to have you do nothing but bitch and criticise it. If you don't like it, don't read and don't post. If you want to contribute around here and not be so damn negative all time, we'd like to have you... Your call...

And while we are on the topic of winter, we're not going to have a lot of the long distance pi$$ing contests this winter either....

Apology accepted

Seems to me that edit rule was "do as I say,not as I do"after you and your brother in law had a not so private spat not to long ago.It must be good to be KING because I could have read that all winter.:huh:
Start your own site and you can be KING S%@$#!:walk:

WTF
I just asked a simple question :wall:

:gu:

WTF
I just asked a simple question :wall:

:gu:
You ought to know better..It's %$#@! winter...:smash:

How is THAT for being the "KING", I just got moderated on my own board :rotfl: by Slip

I like the 5 minutes or so. Just to correct spelling. Then , you get stuck with it.

Sea Dangles , nobody cares about what you have to say or would care if you disappeared from this board. In fact , some would like the idea.

I like the 5 minute time limit...the only problem is when you are running a swap or something and you can't change the posts to add or subtract someones name.....no problem though...keep up the good work guys!:)

......Members have been good lately it seems:angel:
yeah, cause I quit posting. My buddy Sea Dangles is carrying the flag for me.:hidin:

I like sea dangles style, he isn't afraid of speaking out against the "internet heroes". Sorry for the off topic post but I like the new edit options:kewl:

I like sea dangles style, he isn't afraid of speaking out against the "internet heroes". Sorry for the off topic post but I like the new edit options:kewl:

I'm not against people calling out the "Internet Heroes" either, but it is a different thing to start stuff up for grins and giggles or just to keep the skewer in a subject or someone when should have died a long time ago.

As for SD's frequent rant against those that moderate and manage here, we can never seem to do it to his liking. Well, it gets kinda old. Recently, he has posted more constructive topics here and adds a little to the site, but early on, a lot of his comments were destructive and destructive to any chance of something that comes close to be smooth running here. And not to single him out but if there were less people stirring the pot for grins and giggles, there would be less need for uber moderation and maybe some better discussion could take place. But with him, we can't edit some stuff fast enough, and other times we edit what we shouldn't be editing. We can't seem to win. I think the guys that moderate here, volunteer to moderate here, do a hell of a job. Unlike at some other places, moderating is not a pat on the back "I'm King and want to be an Internet Hero" task. The guys that moderate here are first class, genuine people: Slip, Mike P, Saltheart, Specialist, and Fishpart - they have charachter, and I get tired of seeing them get slammed for doing a pretty damn good job.

I also don't have any illusions about wanting or thinking I am "King", I'm not a glory hound personality :musc: . What I want is a good site where people passionate about fishing can openly discuss stuff without worry that the peanut gallery are going to ram down one's throat at the first chance. What I want is for people, this community of people, to be able to do the right thing, be better anglers, more respectful of others and the fish, and do it some some kind of friendly respectful way. We put ourselves all thru too much unnecessary crap, especially in the winter time, that detracts from any kind of normalcy and god forbid, maybe some fun and discussing something.

Sorry for the rant :laugha: , I'd just rather see are more freindly climate on the site this winter. Maybe we'll have a penalty box with a one day minor and one week major no posting :tooth:

I didn't mean it as a jab against you JohnR, keep up the good work on the site. It is by far the best.

I didn't mean it as a jab against you JohnR, keep up the good work on the site. It is by far the best.

Not taken as a jab at all RR, I just wish people could be more open and I see this site as being even better if we weren't stuck in the mid from time to time, does that make sense?

Self-imposed sabbaticals work well, also.:sleeps:

Self-imposed sabbaticals work well, also.:sleeps:
Too bad they're not self enforced :devil: :heybaby:

-spence

Just a couple of things. There's a fine line when it comes to moderating a long distance urination contest. If it looks like the guys are hashing it out, I tend to leave it alone for the moment. When it starts a downward spiral, that's when it ends. Now, for offensive stuff, I have a pretty strong gag reflex. I figger, if some picture or link offends me, it's a pretty safe bet it shouldn't be here ;)

Also, those of us who've been around the site since the beginning know who's friends with who, and when what looks like flaming is just friendly ball-busting. But a lot of the new guys might not. Keep that in mind. Not saying you have to end poking your buds in the ribs, but give some sign for the noobs that it's all in fun. Smilies, whatever.

One last point. I know I enjoy pouring myself a couple of fingers of an amber liquid and settling in front of a computer screen on a cold night when I can't fish. Nothing wrong with it. I also feel it loosening my fingers, and I stop at the point where I might be tempted to post something dumb. I can see from a lot of posts, in the late evenings or early mornings, that more than a few people probably enjoy this too. If nothing else, spelling and grammar take a hit ;) At some point, you have to stop and say, "Do I really, really, REALLY want to go ahead with this post??" before you move your mouse over the "submit reply" button and click on it. Just some friendly advice, to avoid problems over the winter.

There's nothing like a classic drunk post to really make an ass of yourself :uhuh:

The next morning you find yourself trying will it down the list of threads. At least that's what I've heard...

-spence

I like the 5mins. too.Keeps ya honest.

The next morning you find yourself trying will it down the list of threads. At least that's what I've heard...

-spence

:hee: :buds: :rotf3:

One last point. I know I enjoy pouring myself a couple of fingers of an amber liquid and settling in front of a computer screen on a cold night when I can't fish. Nothing wrong with it. I also feel it loosening my fingers, and I stop at the point where I might be tempted to post something dumb. I can see from a lot of posts, in the late evenings or early mornings, that more than a few people probably enjoy this too. If nothing else, spelling and grammar take a hit ;)

I've never done that!:angel:

john, i'm not sure how it can be set up or not, but maybe have the editing limit longer only on certain boards, such as the classified or sponsor specials. as far as the main forum, i am all for no editing. then, it makes people think before they speak, which has seemed to be one of the problems many have. then, after cooling off or rethinking it, they edit it. or, as the habit traditionally was, climb into a corner by removing/editing their spat. w/o editing on, you will be almost forced to review your post before posting it. then, you may find your spelling or grammar mistakes, or may even rethink the whole post. to me, editing is the easy way out of the battle you either started or added fuel to.

if my memory is correct, i dont think i have ever edited one of my posts just for that reason. and, i have been in several "heated" love-wars thru the years.

i also bet you would see less moderating needed if people knew they couldn't remove what they said after seeing the feedback.

john, i'm not sure how it can be set up or not, but maybe have the editing limit longer only on certain boards, such as the classified or sponsor specials. as far as the main forum, i am all for no editing. then, it makes people think before they speak, which has seemed to be one of the problems many have. then, after cooling off or rethinking it, they edit it. or, as the habit traditionally was, climb into a corner by removing/editing their spat. w/o editing on, you will be almost forced to review your post before posting it. then, you may find your spelling or grammar mistakes, or may even rethink the whole post. to me, editing is the easy way out of the battle you either started or added fuel to.

if my memory is correct, i dont think i have ever edited one of my posts just for that reason. and, i have been in several "heated" love-wars thru the years.

i also bet you would see less moderating needed if people knew they couldn't remove what they said after seeing the feedback.

Well - the five minutes worked well for a lot of clerical errors and we just went from 5 - 30 minutes so we weill see how that goes - it can always go back :hee:

I liked the 5 minute time frame, but I'd survive if it was somewhere in the mid range of 5 and 30 and it was set at 15 minutes.

I'd go with Seawolf though if I were only thinking about my preferences. No editing really makes people think.

less handbag fights with the edit feature turned off. :uhuh:

the 30 minute editing time....because i rarely start flame wars for one thing...but mainly because i like to make art that entertains the group by playing off what is said...as it gives me idea's for art work.

Sometimes though i was uploading the wrong picture because i have many steps (proofs) before i get the right effect or finished product. now however, i upload to the photo bucket so i can display it as 800 x 600 pixels. And yes, several times i read in the morning what i wrote the night before
while a bit enebriated.....and then i'm saying OMG i can't believe i wrote that....what was i thinking....heh heh heh and just like worshiping the porcilin god and saying i'll never drink again....you find yourself wishing that post would dematerialize.....:wall:, lol

:cheers:

The internet is a funny thing.People can write things that they otherwise might not say.I can see why John took exception to my post,in my opinion it is because I brought back an incident he was embarrassed of.He and and #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^& had a knockdown drag through the mud battle played out on the keyboard that was entertaining for some.Fortunately the issue was resolved in private like it should have been.They are both good guys.But then the thread just disappeared into thin air.Deleted.When Slip recently asked for amendmants to the time limit on editing posts I took the liberty of pointing out that certain people have the advantage of deleting their mistakes whenever they want while others have a time limit on editing.
I don't ever recollect criticizing the actions,effort or discretion of any moderators in the past.However I do admit to stirring the proverbial pot on occasion.Sometimes the result is good banter like we have here,other times I have been embarrassed by what I wrote.
BTW Saltheart,do you know what sycophant means?

You kill me dude :laugha:

BTW Saltheart,do you know what sycophant means?

are those the Meds you forget to take all the time ?? :hihi:

just kiddin. :laugha:

your a complex dude seadangles.. i like it.. never a dull moment :D

"The KING" has spoken.:laugha:

Damn, I wish I could edit that.:wall:

The internet is a funny thing.People can write things that they otherwise might not say.I can see why John took exception to my post,in my opinion it is because I brought back an incident he was embarrassed of.He and and #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^& had a knockdown drag through the mud battle played out on the keyboard that was entertaining for some.Fortunately the issue was resolved in private like it should have been.They are both good guys.But then the thread just disappeared into thin air.Deleted.When Slip recently asked for amendmants to the time limit on editing posts I took the liberty of pointing out that certain people have the advantage of deleting their mistakes whenever they want while others have a time limit on editing.
I don't ever recollect criticizing the actions,effort or discretion of any moderators in the past.However I do admit to stirring the proverbial pot on occasion.Sometimes the result is good banter like we have here,other times I have been embarrassed by what I wrote.
BTW Saltheart,do you know what sycophant means?


Dangles - again, your take on what and why is wrong. My "exception" to your remarks being about me and Bill's little "spat" as it was called is not what it was about, now or then. I personally don't like to edit or delete threads, including removing them but if they don't belong then I will, and I did. I'm not embarrassed about it, regret that it got to that point, yeh, embarrased, no. Granted, you've only been here for a year or so, but I'm sure there has been a post or two before that one that has needed to get flushed as well. I think moderating here at S-B has been fairly consistant for the 5 or 6 years we've been around.

As for some of us being able to edit or delete beyond a time limit? Up until recently, everyone was able to edit their posts without limit but a few, often when in the middle of "banter", would type something out and then remove or alter or delete - too easy to type and not take responsibility for it. So, after 5 plus years, we had to limit the edit feature. Kinda sucks for the majority of people that a few screwed that up.

As for when you have questioned the mods, there have been a few instances where we could not edit a spot name fast enough, or shucks darn, we missed one or remove a post fast enough so we apparently sucked for not being quick enough on the trigger and there have been other times when you knock us for having the need to edit or delete at all - so damend if we do damned if we don't.

n : a person who tries to please someone in order to gain a personal advantage

Hmm , not sure if you are applying that term to me or yourself.

If you are applying it to me , please let me know who I am trying to please and what I might possibly have to gain?

If you are applying it to yourself , you are not fitting the description. You are not pleasing anyone here.

Around here , you are known as the guy who is jealous of #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&. You behave like a jealous high school girl. Jealousy may be cute when displayed by a teeny bopper but when a grown man is so obviously jealous of another fisherman , its ugly and I'm embarassed for you.

John,I never said any of you sucked.These are your words not mine.I have too much respect for you to say that or even imply it.But if you choose to use hyperbole to make me look worse that is your right.I think you are taking this thread a little too personally.Happy Holidays!!Saltheart,you should learn to speak for yourself instead of speaking for a supposed group.We are all individuals with our own opinions,if we were all the same this board would be boring.Judging from the response to my last few postings and the p.m.'s I received some people actually do enjoy what my opinion is.Your response indicates a lack of humor or understanding to the joke I made at your expense.Get well soon.

John,I never said any of you sucked.These are your words not mine.I have too much respect for you to say that or even imply it.But if you choose to use hyperbole to make me look worse that is your right.I think you are taking this thread a little too personally.Happy Holidays!!Saltheart,you should learn to speak for yourself instead of speaking for a supposed group.We are all individuals with our own opinions,if we were all the same this board would be boring.Judging from the response to my last few postings and the p.m.'s I received some people actually do enjoy what my opinion is.Your response indicates a lack of humor or understanding to the joke I made at your expense.Get well soon.

Making the jokes at other's expense when both sides are not engaged in "friendly banter" is the problem. Friendly banter assumes both sides are bantering freindly. Taking shots at someone, at their expense, is not friendly banter, nor is it opinion.

As for hyperbole? Nahh, several times you have called us out to edit something super fast, and other times we slammed for over editing. It's not like you have done this everyday but it has happened a few times.

As for opinion, state your opinion, but not at the expense of others. If your opinion is "this guy is an ass" don't start a pissing contest. If your opinion is something about fishing, post it. Think it out, say what you want to say, and support it. But don't make a joke at my expense (especially when the joke isn't funny) and expect me to haha about it... And don't do the same to others. It just doesn't make any sense. I've seen you what, a half dozen times in person? We get along OK. Not like we're best pals or anything but we talk, right? Then why is this translation problem happening when we type instead of when we talk :huh: ??

Tell you what, I'll present the olive branch this time - sincerely. Don't be over critical of people and relax a bit, I'll be less critical and relax a bit. I just don't think we - you and me - should be so damn critical... How's that ?? :btu:

John,we don't have any problems that can't be resolved over a beer.Hyperbole is exaggeration to make a point such as you acusing me of saying you suck.No one is perfect,especially me and I welcome constructive criticism even if at times it's a bitter pill.
People have different ideas of what's funny and what's not.Notice the responses that followed my joke.As far as I am concerned when Saltheart decided to throw in his 2 cents then he is fair game to any and all dialogue.Otherwise he could just p.m. me.BTW Saltheart,would you care to share the p.m.I received from #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^& and forwarded to you with the board?I suggest in the future you speak for yourself.
This could probably go on for a while seeing it's winter but I'm done and will schedule two visits a week with my therapist instead of one for the forseeable future.

What I said privatly to chris, I will share here. Basically, whatever is going on here certainly does not involve me. I dont like the fact that Saltheart made the comment he did and using my name in there. There was no need for it and I dont want to get sucked in to some stupid board flame session That I have nothing to do with. My best intentions seem to somehow blow up constantly so, I have made a personall choice to stay away from the board for just the reasons that I clearly see in this post. Posts here seem to become extremely anal ! You cant post your "opinion" without it being turned into a flame war. You cant post advice because then "your a know it all" If god forbid you forget to add a smile face someplace to somehow indicate your "joking" there will be hell to pay !

I have always been confident in what it is I do. Sure, there are others here who have the same confidence in what they do, I dont fault that. Some people just dont want to listen to what others have to say no matter what the case may be, they will find a way to twist it around and make the guy look like jerk. I have in the past been guilty of this also, I am certainly no saint but, at some point you just have to stop and look at it and say it isnt worth the time or effort.

An example may be a simple question like: "whats the best way to hook an eel" then, someone answers, suddenly that answer is no good ! the person who ansewerd it is picked apart to the bone, he responds angry and the whole mess starts. After awhile you just say forget it? It makes it hard to answer someone becasue you know what coming ! Questions like that, I have a tendency to answer very matter of fact, that comes accross as a "know it all" however like I said early, I have 22 years doing it and have had tremendous results so, I answer with confidence.Anyway you get the point. It isnt worth it.

Coiming back this year and getting myself involved with the board again has been a rollercaster experiance, there are many things I wish I could take back, there are also some I wont take back. I have met some nice people and some not so nice people, I have been followed, my friends have taken hits, I have been lied to, I have stuck my foot in my mouth, I took hits for posting pics of fish and it has been overall apparent to me that in the past couple of years things have changed dramatically. I have been parinoid as to what to say to whom? I have run into people from the board who have intentionally made there way to places I fish just to say "ha ha I found you" I have ZERO respect for that and, I will state matter of fact that I have never done that to ANYONE on this board even if at times I knew exactly where they were fishing. Lots of it is of course is my own fault and I know that but, not all of it. So I guess I have learned alot here about the "new way". For whatever I am and , this may come as a shock, I do like making friends but, Not the type that are just looking for something -or-info etc..Basicallly to use you.I have to say a guy like Clammer is someone who has become a friend in the true sense of the word! He asks for nothing just friendship, enjoys fishing and is comfortable to be around, Piemma is another example of someone I would call a friend as is his partner Bryan, doesnt ask for anything, fishes on an invite and is appreciative but again, these three guys are from a different era and they dont make them like that anymore.the difference is that I can tell these guys anything and be comforted in the fact that they wont be in my boots the next night.I dont fish as hard as I did 15 years ago, I realize I am not "old" but I have slowed down from when I was in my early 20s. I still love catching big bass but I wont kill myself anymore to do it, been there and done that. I enjoy more now being with steve or clammer and laughing all night and getting away from the every day stress of life.

I have met Chris and he was nothing but friendly to me so I cant say much more than that, I honestly dont feel he is jealous in any way. Evereyone has there "bored" moments. I have caused my share of crap over the years and I think sea-dangles has a long way to go before he catches me! So, everyone should cut everyone a break, life is to short and what does it all really mean anyway???

On one other note, I sincerly regret what happened between John and I on the board but its spilt milk ! That was coming for awhile and acually it needed to happen. He is however family and that comes before all else. He has a tough job here moderating this forum that he puts out there for everyone else to use and enjoy.

Enjoy this board and try to be nicer to each other and dont judge a book by the cover! There are some real good fisherman here and tons of knowledge! Use it the right way and everyone will be better off!

Bill

I certainly will not be posting anyones PM's . He sent it to you , not me.

I assume you asked him before sending me the PM and will again before posting it here. After all , PM stands for Private Message. I couldn't care less one way or the other whether you post it or not.

There's nothing in the PM that changes my mind that you are simply jealous. Perhaps he knows you personally and understands where you are coming from but whether he agrees with my opinion or not , jealousy is the conclusion I draw from your collection of posts on this site.

Thanks Bill. I had a great time this past season. Lots of laughs and a lot of good fish. I have stayed off the board for about a month except for a Clammah Claus post. But I "lurk" :hidin: occasionally.
You made a lot of good points and I just wanted to second them.

My only other comment is that Sea Dangles and I had our differences during the early Fall. We settled them OFF-Line and I had the pleasure of meeting Chris on the Block in November. In my opinion, I'll share a rock with him anytime.

Bill - one of the things you said hit the nail on the head - you should be able to post stuff and not need to get slammed in the process, you should be able to post picks and not get slammed for it. THAT is one of the main things I want to stop happening around here. And it is a shame because it wasn't always like that...

So, a blanket statement, if someone posts something or puts up pics, please no slamming. And always remember just because you type something one way with one intention, that the guy on the other side is going to read it like you intended...

I certainly will not be posting anyones PM's . He sent it to you , not me.

I assume you asked him before sending me the PM and will again before posting it here. After all , PM stands for Private Message. I couldn't care less one way or the other whether you post it or not.

There's nothing in the PM that changes my mind that you are simply jealous. Perhaps he knows you personally and understands where you are coming from but whether he agrees with my opinion or not , jealousy is the conclusion I draw from your collection of posts on this site.
:rolleyes: It takes a big man to admit when they are wrong........

as the butter is fatening:lurk:

am only here for fun and friendship.... life is for laughter....and joy.

everything a person does in life is measured by how much praise they recieve as a result of the work they do or the talent they possess
and unlike the sigmond freud theory that everything is about sex
which is completely false....everyone wants a pat on the back when a jobs well done....even more so than money....thats the highest compliment anyone could recieve and what truly motivates people.:o

You guys kill me... I think everyone needs to be educated about the "ignore" button... Then all these self inflating rants and screw twistings can be done to echo off the walls of an empty internet audience... no boiling blood or applause just silence. What could hurt more yet sound so sweet.

John - you do a great job here GREAT. And you have let yourself get sucked into the internet abyss of meaningless arguments. Not that I'm not guilty of that because I am VERY guilty, but I have vowed not to react anymore... no matter how hard it is not to burn someone, I hold it in and it works much better. Just my own observations, I'd go on but someone would undoubtedly get mad at me :zup:

"KING JOHN" (insert smiley here), all I can say is, you're a better man than me because I'd be using the "Delete Member" button on a more regular basis if I were in your shoes.:scream: . Although, I would have had to delete myself.
I think you and the mods handle stuff pretty well here.:bshake:

PS: Why can't I play arcade on Firefox???:gf:

PS: Why can't I play arcade on Firefox???:gf:

Its working for me.You must be missing a plugin,as to which one I don't
know.

Its working for me.You must be missing a plugin,as to which one I don't
know.
I kinda figured that, I can't seem to find the right one though.

And you have let yourself get sucked into the internet abyss of meaningless arguments.

Well, even I like to play a little somtimes (I just don't try to initiate :hihi: )

F18 - I don't know what the problem is, maybe your kid put a "parental lock" on you :tooth: :huh: . Does it work on IE?

did you download the latest version of firefox....because before i did that...i was only able to use it in ie6... you have to delete the old version first then go to mozilla.org via ie and download it...

now i can play asteroids with either browser :rtfm:

F18 - I don't know what the problem is, maybe your kid put a "parental lock" on you :tooth: :huh: . Does it work on IE?
Now that's Possible...:lasso:

Yes, works on IE.

I think I have the latest ver. of FireFox

Firefox just came out with the latest version,1.5.Arcade did work on 1.07 too though but again that must've had to do with whatever plugin.

Firefox just came out with the latest version,1.5.Arcade did work on 1.07 too though but again that must've had to do with whatever plugin.


my thoughts exactly.....:grins:

now i am gonna listen to some soothing ocean surf
to relax because i've had a most challenging day.....so much so that i had to go out and cut up several 12 inch round oak tree logs into 8 foot lengths
then lift them end over end like a taber in the scottish games to work off my aggressions....and now i'm all pumped up like california's govenor
about to enjoy 3 fingers of irish cream liquor over ice instead of an early evening coffee. :gu:

my thoughts exactly.....:grins:

and now i'm all pumped up like california's govenor about to enjoy 3 fingers of irish cream liquor over ice instead of an early evening coffee. :gu:

Man am I a creature of habit.No matter how cold I am I still put beers in the freezer to get them to that magic almost frozen temp.

Man am I a creature of habit.No matter how cold I am I still put beers in the freezer to get them to that magic almost frozen temp.

i found out the hard way.....

http://www.striped-bass.com/Stripertalk/showthread.php?t=25110&highlight=coldest+beer