Ok ever since I started the kettle cove thread and a response was given to get myself a kayak...I did a little exploring around last weekend. It was so nice outside I just had to.

Anyway, since the start of that thread I have been looking at kayaks and the kayakfishingnewengland (or something like that) website and it got me REALLY REALLY wanting a kayak. However, thanks to my less impulsive buying half, I have negotiated to a kayak of lesser value than what I want :rtfm:

So I ask the experienced kayakers on the board, Do you know what I should look for? Places to get deals?? Etc etc...

We are talking around 500 bucks here... Is that realistic? (not including all the accessories)

Thanks for the info

Have you looked at kayakfishingstuff.com

Well if she gave you a budget of $500 then you can probably squeeze it to $600 without to much grief....now you have to ask yourself How much grief am I going to get for every $100 I go above that. Another $100 may mean your going to have to listen to her for a solid weekend. $250 above that usually means she'll drag her mother into the Grief session...so you will be getting it in Stereo for the same Weekend. But you are now up to $950 and a weekend of grief for a Summer of Cows and Fun.

Now to lessen the Blow, Valentines day is just 3 weeks away. If you can wow her on Valentines day then go out the Following Weekend and purchase the Kayak you could Eliminate the "Mom-in-Law" effect. The big Problem is that Valentines day is on a Tuesday so by the Weekend the "Honey your the Greatest" feeling may diminish, so I would suggest you go shopping for it on Thursday to take full advantage. She should still be feeling the effect of all the Ooh-ing and Ahh-ing from her Co-workers over what you got her. The longer you wait the Probability of you doing something to piss her off greatly increases.


Or you can suck it up buy one used on Craigslist or from the Want-ads.

DF, you sound like you speak from experience in these matters.:hihi: I like it:claps:

Talk to DonM at King Cove Outfitters about kayaks, one of S-B's sponsors.

For that kinda a dough, Id get a used 14' tinny. JMO..

Talk to DonM at King Cove Outfitters about kayaks, one of S-B's sponsors.


Look around and see if you can find a used demo yak..don't get caught up buying one with all the rod holders and what not, do it yourself after and you can save some dough...


"Got Tow?"

Think used.

In addition to the kayak, you are going to need a paddle, PFD, suitable attire, paddle leash, new rods & reels, rod holders, tubes, a 6 month supply of worms. Then you'll want a fish finder, a GPS, lights, drift socks, anchors, a better seat, a kayak cart, load bars and J carriers.

After a month you'll want a second kayak for the GF (or one of those Endicott soccer players) so you'll likely repeat the whole cycle.

Ask me how I know. :rtfm:

If you purchase your yak in rhode island you do not pay tax on it, or so it it was when I bought mine. Seems that Quaker Lane would have some deals on yaks not damaged in the fire but I am not sure.
A Pfd and paddle are mandatory extras to tack onto yak price, but the rest can come with time.

DF,
I just cracked up and from your advise... I need to take some notes :)

I am thinking used might be the way to go....

What do you consider a "cant live without" feature to look for on any kayak?

:)

oh and i assume sit on top is what the kids are getting these days>?

I second King Cove, Really nice guys and I got great deals there on a demo and a used rental. Plus you can test it out right behind the store.

Hunters, If you really need to stick to that budget, Look for a leftover heritage fisherman. I don't work for heritage but I'm on the pro-staff. We were selling new leftover 2003 heritage fisherman 14' for $299 :) at the marlboro show. They are cheap because heritage has a whole new hull and seat material in the boat for 2006. This boat retails for $799. It's a pretty good boat - no tankwell but performs great and for that price you can't go wrong. Plus you'll already have rear rodholders. Look for other deals at the shows as well. The new 2006 redfish was $599 show special !! That's 250 less than retail. Look around for places with 2005 or older stock they are looking to get rid of.

Can someone give me the pros and cons of the sit on top vs the traditional kayak? I assume it is wetter, and appropriate clothing is different? I have never been in one but that's gonna change. Can I get duel outriggers to help keep me upright?:laughs:

Can someone give me the pros and cons of the sit on top vs the traditional kayak? I assume it is wetter, and appropriate clothing is different? I have never been in one but that's gonna change. Can I get duel outriggers to help keep me upright?:laughs:

heres a great article i just read NF

http://www.kayakfishingstuff.com/articles_view.asp?Kayak_Articles=51

Hunters, If you really need to stick to that budget, Look for a leftover heritage fisherman. I don't work for heritage but I'm on the pro-staff. We were selling new leftover 2003 heritage fisherman 14' for $299 :) at the marlboro show. They are cheap because heritage has a whole new hull and seat material in the boat for 2006. This boat retails for $799. It's a pretty good boat - no tankwell but performs great and for that price you can't go wrong. Plus you'll already have rear rodholders. Look for other deals at the shows as well. The new 2006 redfish was $599 show special !! That's 250 less than retail. Look around for places with 2005 or older stock they are looking to get rid of.

Whens the next marlboro show? :)

dont buy one.... build one (http://www.chesapeakelightcraft.com)

dont buy one.... build one (http://www.chesapeakelightcraft.com)

i COULD...but then i wouldnt be catching many fish because it would probably sink :huh:

its easy if you get a kit. I built mine in 2 weeks. 3 hours here and 2 hours there every night.

heres the model i built.. Fast, stable, tracks nicely..

http://www.chesapeakelightcraft.com/boats/chesapeake18_photos.php/cart_id=17738cd52bc05d85a65ca15bc31cc9ab/

I used a sit in this summer and fall, borrowed from a friend. I did provide protection from the wind and water. The trade is that when you launch and a wave breaks over the front, unless you have a skirt to close the hull opening, the water ends up inside the yak and there it sits with you in it... A little bit isn't bad. A lot sucks.... I took several dumps landing in the surf. Landing is an art unto itself... Some guys with sit ins just bail out in waist deep water and walk the yak in.
I ended up not liking being closed in as I approached the beach. I want to be able to bail out if I need to, so I'm going to get a sit on top, probably a 14 footer. From talking to the guys that have them, some neoprene waders in the spring or conventional waders with good long johns help substantially. Summer it's shorts and sunscreen. All I can say is, Nightfighter, you will love it! Still working on good launch site in oyur neighborhood... Found a few last summer :-)

Well if she gave you a budget of $500 then you can probably squeeze it to $600 without to much grief....now you have to ask yourself How much grief am I going to get for every $100 I go above that. Another $100 may mean your going to have to listen to her for a solid weekend. $250 above that usually means she'll drag her mother into the Grief session...so you will be getting it in Stereo for the same Weekend. But you are now up to $950 and a weekend of grief for a Summer of Cows and Fun.

Now to lessen the Blow, Valentines day is just 3 weeks away. If you can wow her on Valentines day then go out the Following Weekend and purchase the Kayak you could Eliminate the "Mom-in-Law" effect. The big Problem is that Valentines day is on a Tuesday so by the Weekend the "Honey your the Greatest" feeling may diminish, so I would suggest you go shopping for it on Thursday to take full advantage. She should still be feeling the effect of all the Ooh-ing and Ahh-ing from her Co-workers over what you got her. The longer you wait the Probability of you doing something to piss her off greatly increases.


Or you can suck it up buy one used on Craigslist or from the Want-ads.
wow! the dad fisherman really
earned his avatar
hi AL :wavey:

uh oh, MrHunters is getting another boat!!!! :)

At this rate you'll have ten before I have one :(

There is a place in Essex that always has a sale sign out front. We could go this weekend?

And I wonder if used from a tour service might be possible?? there is one in rockport and essex i believe

i have a wilderness pungo120 sit inside, handles the surf very well is easy to paddle is rigged with 3 pole holders and a fish finder...best move i made for exploring those hard to reach spots...

The best advice is to test before you buy. I was all set to get a Pungo until I test paddled the Necky Santa Cruz. She's fast and handles the rough conditions very well. It's a SINK.
The advantage of a SOT is that it's easier to get into and out of but some of them are quite slow. When things are rough I'm glad that I'm in my SINK. As to surf landings , they take a lot of practice in a SINK. So get two yaks a SINK and a SOT. :hihi:
FishHawk

just gotta think small taJon..... Also not having to plan a wedding helps too ;)

I am following this thread with interest since I have been mulling getting one for a couple of years. I think the SOT would better suit me and there is one I found on the web that looks interesting but I never see it discussed here. Maybe because it is a west coast company? The Kiwi Angler.
(http://www.kiwikayak.com/angler.htm)
The pontoons tell me it is stable. Have seen guys standing and casting from them. The fishing package includes transom reinforcement for mounting a trolling motor. From those of you who yak, what are the limitations of this design? My only guess as to your replys would be that it wouldn't be appropriate for the surf, but if you have a quieter place to launch... OOPS link didn't work. copy, paste this www.kiwikayak.com/angler.htm

MrHunter check your PM's

I have a SOT. Easy to get on/off, water drains out of holes in the foot wells, easy to accessorize (rod holder, gps, ff), allows you to sit side saddle and fish, well(s) allow you to store stuff with easy access. Yes, you do get wet but stocking waders (with the belt) and a dry top and you can fish whenever, and where ever. They are typically very difficult to tip unless you are riding surf. You can even tell your wife/gf that you are going to work out and not really be lying.:btu:

REI has a decent selection and during their annual sale everything is 10-20% off. You can also talk with some of the places that rent them as they tend to have a big sell off of them, but it is usually at the end of the season.

YEAH BABY!

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/01/25/earlyshow/leisure/main1236856.shtml



watch the video :humpty:

Okay, so who wants to chase small bft with a yak? Some sleigh ride that would be!!!!

Okay, so who wants to chase small bft with a yak? Some sleigh ride that would be!!!!

Ohhhh, that sounds so much like a thread from our old friend, I believe his name was Patrick????? GBFT from shore, remember that one!:jump: :rotfl: Who can find that thread so others can share in that fun. (Not busting on ya Steelhead, but you'll understand when you read it)

Here it is;http://www.striped-bass.com/Stripertalk/archive/index.php/t-1148.html

Yeah Eben, that was a good video. (Making note to self, no inflatable SOTs)

Nightfighter, I loved reading that thread! What a hoot! There was a certain element of tongue in cheek to my post. But in the other hand.... At times, aren't we all just a little bit crazy?

Okay, so who wants to chase small bft with a yak? Some sleigh ride that would be!!!!


I do. Not really that crazy John. They were close enough in RI this year. I went out in hopes of getting into them a few times last year, but without success. Without the ability to zip quickly from one place to the next you just have to be in the right place at the right time. It is definatley do-able. People catch alot bigger than sbft out of yaks. If they come in as close this year as last, you will have to come down and give it a try.

http://kfs.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/6116019354/m/1461091551 Check out this link shows you how to get back in a
SOT . FishHawk

Just like a canoe! Nice!
That's the other reason I'll be getting a SOT.
If I do roll "out there", you don't end up with a tub full of water.

FishHawk. Any links to proper landing techniques in the surf?
I remember one showing a backpaddle technique as the waves broke by you as opposed to surfing in.

the smaller blue fin tuna are caught while out trolling.... is my understanding.... so to catch one in a "kayak" wouldn't you need either a self propelled (via foot power) or a battery/ trolling motor setup
to cover enough water to accomplish this? or are you simply chasing around schools that are blitzing and then casting into them?

or are you simply chasing around schools that are blitzing and then casting into them?


:hihi:

And if you were not that into chasing them around. If you stayed in the same place long enough with your motor off, they would pop up within casting distance....

:kewl:

What are considered the top 5 fishing kayaks? (excluding cost)

i have been researching this long before i shell out cash looking for new features and stability in kayaks specifically designed for saltwater fishing... and the hobie cats have my attention because of the mirage system( foot pedaling) but i also want a trolling motor battery set up too and of course a paddle. Malibu kayaks have some great features too. I also look at the total weight capacity and want it up to 450 pounds minimum as a battery trolling motor setup is good for
what 100 pounds maybe alone. you start filling coolers with beverages ....frozen bait...plugs - water ,survival gear.... and whamo
your over the limit in capacity real quick.

Any links to proper landing techniques in the surf?
I remember one showing a backpaddle technique as the waves broke by you as opposed to surfing in.

Here's one or two links with good info on technique for getting back on a SOT and launching/landing.

http://kayak4fish.com/press/SurfSkills.shtml
http://www.paddling.net/guidelines/showArticle.html?108
http://www.paddling.net/guidelines/showArticle.html?98
http://www.paddling.net/guidelines/showArticle.html?146

My technique is - plan on dumping but try not to

- make sure your gear is stowed and rods are leashed.
- time the sets for a lull
- follow a wave and paddle like hell
- if a wave catches you, try not to bury the bow and try to remain at a 45 degree angle by using your paddle on the beach side of the boat
- if you get tossed, keep the kayak between you and the shore and not the waves.

Raven, most kayaks that can support a motor are going to paddle like a bathtub. The Cobra Fish'n Dive is the one I've seen rigged up that way on the West Coast sites. It's got a 600# capacity.

the fish and dive thus far gets my vote....

i sweetwater fish in a johnboat but i wouldnt take that into the surf for any reason.... one good wave or power boat passing by leaving a wake...and your (swamped) flipped....so i'm looking for the saltwater alternative....

and that one gets my VOTE> :kewl: worth the money !!!

it's either that or a tin boat...but the "IDEA" is to get out on the water effeciently without any hassels so the yak seems to be the answer.

http://www.martialartsacademy.org/quietmanelectrickayak.htm

The link at the bottom doesn't work. His main homepage is...

http://www.martialartsacademy.org/quietmanfish.htm

That was awesome how he set that up....Got me thinking

What are considered the top 5 fishing kayaks? (excluding cost)

Tough question to answer since alot depends on the conditions you prefer, your body type, your desire for stability vs. performance and whether you are conservative or n#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g futs.

I'd say these manufacturers seem to be the most popular and each seem to have a couple models worth looking at.

Cobra - http://www.cobrakayaks.com/kayaks.html
Ocean Kayaks - http://www.oceankayak.com/kayakinfo.html
Malibu - http://www.malibukayaks.com/kayaks.asp
Wilderness Systems - http://www.wildernesssystems.com/kayaks/sot.php
Heritage - http://www.heritagekayaks.com/sitontop.html
Hobie - http://www.hobiecat.com/fishing/index.html

These are primarily sit on top models, so I'm sure that there are others to consider.

THANKYOU !! your chasing my winter blues away BIGTIME....

i was reading on his first site where he said: he was blowing by his paddling buddies... who couldnt make headway in the wind....
that happened to me one day.... and i had plenty of juice and power (it seemed) but the winds were just to strong....i eventually
had to put on my waders which i always have aboard...and i had to tow my boat all the way around the shore line to get back to my vehicle. people on the shore were giving me a bunch of stupid looks too...and i know how to SAIL real well and wished i had one... Wow ! he carries allot of gear !! which is why i said 450lbs and up capacity. I bought a gas motor now for the sweet water boat.

back to yaks: and tm's (trolling motors) i had once bought a riptide saltwater version but it didnt last long enough and cost $600.oo bucks Yikes
so i liked his method of buying hundred dollar motors and rinsing well. I still would want more thrust than 34lbs though and the riptide
was 55 pounds of thrust. the setup with the crate is sweet :kewl:

Steelhead , Hooked took care of the surf landings. That's the board is was going to go to for the surf landings. FishHawk

Hooked, That was the site and Link that I was trying to remember on landings. I think I'm going to spend some time at Wingarsheek Beach up here practicing that technique this spring.... Truth be known, if I can find a small shallow cove out of the wind close to where I plan to fish, I don't mind waking a bit... :-)

i had no idea kayak ideas would get so much attention..

:)

i can't wait to try it out this spring!

I would recommend a SOT, probably easier to deal with in the overall experience.
When I am looking to buy something, I always check e-bay first. I just did a search for fishing kayak and turned up several below your price range and located within driving distance to pick-up. It is now the offseason for small boat sales and is a good time to buy.
Buy a good paddle and a good pfd. You will be wearing the pfd everytime you go out so buy one that you find comfortable.

MrHunters, There's a great launch spot down the street from your place in Kettle Cove. Be happy to take you out this spring/summer :-)

Also, maybe a s-b kayak event would be fun this summer....

I do. Not really that crazy John. They were close enough in RI this year. I went out in hopes of getting into them a few times last year, but without success. Without the ability to zip quickly from one place to the next you just have to be in the right place at the right time. It is definatley do-able. People catch alot bigger than sbft out of yaks. If they come in as close this year as last, you will have to come down and give it a try.

i think idealy you would need to have someone in a CC with a radio or cellphone. OR be able to keep 2 yaks in the CC and launch them near the school.
I'm game to chase them though.. the last one i caught last fall was easily within reach of a shore launched yak.

Nebe, You got yak?

yes. 18 foot chesapeake 18.

MrHunters, There's a great launch spot down the street from your place in Kettle Cove. Be happy to take you out this spring/summer :-)

Also, maybe a s-b kayak event would be fun this summer....

sounds good to me... I have parking for two cars... and you can always take your chances at the beach...oOoooorr i could drive to the beach since i have a residence sticker and there is parking for three :)

BUT... Im gonna go out a few times to get my bearings and a little practice so i dont look like SUCH a n00b :)

whats a CC?

center console, acting as the mother ship!

oh... :)

The motehrship connection. can you dig it??? :smokin:

I can dig it.... Lets go paddling sometime!

When I looked into this last year, it didn't seem worth the hassle (to be legal). For BFT, you need a recreational HMS Angling permit. Sounds cheap ($22) and easy but to get the permit, the MNFS requires either a state registration or coast guard documentation on the vessel. This generally requires red tape, such as a hull ID, and other BS which I've heard takes months.

I hope I'm wrong or the regs loosen up. Last years info is at http://www.nmfspermits.com/other/05ComplianceGuide.pdf

Rec info on Tuna is on page 26 & 27


:poke:

Steelhead...there was talk last winter of a s-b kayak gathering. Quite a few guys on the site crept out of the woodworks with interest. Unfortunatly it didn't pan out. Would be fun though.

Lets all talk at the Plug Fest. Maybe we can get one organized for this summer siomewhere.

October,November,December,January,April?

I can dig it.... Lets go paddling sometime!


sounds good.

MrHunters, I'm thinking June. By then the water isn't Freezing Cold. It's only Cold. :-)

We're having a tourney out here on the Island Sept. 22nd-24th.Most of the info is on my site. Just got my first Yak last season (Prowler 15) and wonder why I didn't do it earlier. The first hookup was a little harrowing for me but what a ride.

Todd, That sounds like it would be fun! My first hook up in the yak was a 34" Bluefish in chop that was about 3'. That was exciting!

ESpn2 right now Bass Tech is rigging out a fishing kayak

When I looked into this last year, it didn't seem worth the hassle (to be legal). For BFT, you need a recreational HMS Angling permit. Sounds cheap ($22) and easy but to get the permit, the MNFS requires either a state registration or coast guard documentation on the vessel. This generally requires red tape, such as a hull ID, and other BS which I've heard takes months.


That's where the mothership comes in....

I like the mothership idea. In the estuaries and along the coast where I encounter cruising and feeding bass, they aren't as disturbed compared to a powerboat approaching. You might be able to get closer to a feed with the kayak and not put it down. I think this is a technique used fairly commonly on the west coast to chase fish off shore.

Good call on the basstech show.

Steelhead- that must have been quite a ride. come on out in the spring or fall and we'll hit some spots.

I've sat in the middle of feeding spanish,bass,blues and albies snuck up on them and either drifted into them or they came to me,All i can say is "what a rush' .Also i love to be able to position myself to cast to the lee siides of some big rocks by me as there are always bass just waiting there for some bait to swim by.The lure goes by and wham an explosion and then the sound of a screaming drive.

I've sat in the middle of feeding spanish,bass,blues and albies snuck up on them and either drifted into them or they came to me,All i can say is "what a rush' .Also i love to be able to position myself to cast to the lee siides of some big rocks by me as there are always bass just waiting there for some bait to swim by.The lure goes by and wham an explosion and then the sound of a screaming drag.

That's where the mothership comes in....

I'm far from being an authority on this and I hope someone can prove me wrong because I'd be up for it.

One of my friends has a permit for his hydra-sports and he hooked up with some footballs last season off the North Shore and CCB. I was going to have him tow me out off Thacher's but I ran into too much red tape trying to stay legal. He told me that not only did I need a permit but the boat needs to leave and return to port under it's own power, no tender boats permitted. We ended up just taking his boat (and only finding bluefish).

I couldn't confirm everything I was told but from what I've gathered from the info on nmfspermits.com, only permitted vessels may fish for BFT (and the other regulated species) and the the permit is a vessel vessel permit which is not transferable.

If there is a loophole or an easy way to get a permit, sign me up.

If not, my story will be that the bluefish I'm livelining is for a monster bass.

Anyway, I'd be up for a get together next season and could bring an extra kayak.

:hidin:

haven't used my kayak around Block Island have been around Newport, Jamestown and from Narrow River south along the rocks of Narr...some nice stripers caught and released, what a rush

Mike, that pic is too funny! Is what the mothership is really for.....:rotf3:

ESPN as Nightfighter posted was giving the complete custom job to a Heritage Kayak. Fishfinder, trolling, motor, pontoons, rod mounts, access holes into the Yaks body to help with mounting screws/bolts. Awesome rig.

FF wheres that pic from.

Did anyone see the article about Mako fishing in a Kayak?

CRAZY

Having fished from a SIK for the past five years, I have always had a great experience with it until one day last summer off of Gloucester. The waves were small but I was a bit overloaded - always try to travel light but not this time -- as I was trying to get into the kayak, I stumbled and then flipped the kayak, ruined and lost a number of items including a radio, a waterproof camera that decided it no longer wanted to be waterproof and several other small tool items.

The guys I was joining all had the SOT kayaks, they had a ton of stuff, were stable and seemed to be a lot more stable than my SIK.

That said, I am going to switch over to the SOT myself. Check out the newenglandkayakfishing web site, they should have some good photos of battlewagons and that will give you a good idea of what you are looking for.

Here's the NEKF site link. It's a great site!

http://www.newenglandkayakfishing.com/

Another great site is www.ultimatekayakfishing.com

Most of the kayakfishermen are from CT, RI and MA. They ar also having their 3rd annual Kayak Fishing Rodeo in June sponsered by King Cove Outfitters with many prizes donated by tackle and kayak manufactures.

Wow. Two great and informative sites. Gome awesome pics with rigging detail on the NE site. OK who has a used SOT for sale? Don, do you have pre-owned models?

Nightfighter. You been bitten bad!!!! They're a great way to be out on the water. You can fish the whole front of you know where...
I'm looking too. If I find any deals. I'll give you a holler:-)

We are fishing almost every weekend in the summer. I had rigged kayaks at King Cove during both legs of the 4 leg tournament.
Kayak fishing is addicting when you can't cast to the blitz, paddle out and sit in the middle of one. :)
http://ultimatekayakfishing.com/forums/uploads/1119469984/gallery_1_3_1086317.jpg

the reflection of your paddle has been taken over by the evil spirit of George Washington.

the reflection of your paddle has been taken over by the evil spirit of George Washington.

or pac man.... :lurk:

Lets all talk at the Plug Fest. Maybe we can get one organized for this summer siomewhere.
I won't be able to make it to plug fest this year...BUT, count me in on the kayak fishing hookup for this season:cool:

Anyone who would like to try kayak fishing before they buy a kayak, give Don M. a call at King Cove. He's got rental kayaks ready rigged for fishing. :)

Nils

and where ya been....?btw

so......HI! NILS C :wavey:

how ya been...got any good kayakin stories to help pass the winter?

the reflection of your paddle has been taken over by the evil spirit of George Washington.

thats the evil chucky....with a bluefish expression.:hihi:

Thanks to the links and info posted I have taken the leap. Made a deal with DonM at King Cove for a Tarpon 140 by Wilderness. Water is still damn cold, so will take delivery in May most likely. (Kind of depends how much you guys at the RISSA show beat him up!) I'm very excited and had a very good experience with DonM getting this done. Very knowledgable for the application I was looking for. Made sure I considered the little things I hadn't yet, like was I lefty or righty for rod holder locations. If you are looking, contact him or see him at the show as he apparently has been selling his alloted hulls as quickly as they are scheduled for shipping! Can't wait for that first sleighride! Thanks Don.

Ross

Nebe :uhuh:



from a Yak...that was wild.

I bought a Tarpon 140 this time last year and love it. Some guys said I'd take in too much water at 220lbs, but it's fine. Just a heads-up, use Ram balls, not Scotty mounts for your rods. They now sell a square base ram ball mount that will fit in the rectangular slots. They're not cheap, but they do a good job of holding the rods.

You'll also want to get a drift sock right away, before an anchor.

Anyway, the 140 is fast and stable - good choice and good luck.

Also purchased the 140 from king cove, top notch. I second the ram mounts they are far superior to any others. Do yourself a favor and get a rudder, it really helps when fighting large in current.