I'm switching a lot of my plugs that I used to run with extra heavy #5 split rings to cut VMC's this year, much more so then in years past. Anyone ever had failures on VMC's they've cut open? I haven't, but with more plugs in my plug bag outfitted that way the chances obviously increase.

I've had fish straighten 3/0 vmc trebles and the cut eye still looked fine. Coloring the cut on the hook with a sharpie greatly reduces rust too.

I just use the split rings with the vmc's, cutting them makes them rust faster and i find it annoying. Those triple split rings wont pop open, and youll be able to change hooks easier in the future.

I would never use cut hooks, they are cut bent open then bent closed, this leaves a hair line crack in the hook. put those hooks on, use your plug a couple of times then try to open them they snap right off. I replace all my hooks with 4x VMC and XH split rings. never had a problem with brealing or straightening out a hook.

I just use the split rings with the vmc's, cutting them makes them rust faster and i find it annoying. Those triple split rings wont pop open, and youll be able to change hooks easier in the future.

My Danny's are the only ones where I need a little more protection against fouling by eliminating the split ring. Beachmaster himself gets upset with split rings so I'm going to trust his judgement. I'm sticking with split rings everywhere I can; needles, Redfins, some darters, and my bottles. I like my split rings. I can't stand even an occasional tangle while fishing Danny's though so it's time to make a change.

I've also had success with the sharpie option. I use a silver sharpie to match the color of the hook.

I've been cutting them for a few years now and had always cut all the other brands of hooks that I used. When they are newly cut I have had 2 of 3 hook points straightenned but the cut part held. You just have to watch them in year 2 and 3. But I find the VMC rust whether you cut them or not but of course they are much, much stronger when not cut. Hooks are relatively cheap so when there is a doubt off they go. BTW I still cut them with sidecutters and use a round plier to open them and they seem less crystallized thus stromger.

after cutting them if Im not fishing that lure for a while I hit the cut with a thin coat of hard as nails.

I think some plugs swim better with cut hooks than with split rings. That and keeping hooks from fouling are the only reasons I do it. Once I have one break, I'll probably change.

I've had hooks straighten out but never had an eye break or open. (usually my fault; drag set too tight ) To me if the drag is set properly and you only bend it once they are fine. If you over bend them after cutting them they break occaissionally. Or if you miss when you close it and try to adjust again that is where a problem could occur. Granted they rust quicker when you cut them so you just have to keep an eye on them and replace as needed. The rebending due to a miss includes Mustad open eye as well. Mustads biggest problem now is their coating sux and the hooks are dull as a Bic pen. Hooks aren't going to last forever if you fish a plug. Rinsing with freshwater helps but eventually they need replacing. EPA standards won't allow hook manufacturers to use what they could 10 or 12 years ago.

Another thing to think about is like Pete and Clogston said. Some plugs do swim better without split rings. Most plugs with 2 belly hooks were made to accomodate cut hooks. Add in split rings and hooks can and do sometimes tangle. Depending on the size of the lure its hook placement can't be changed enough to make split rings work without affecting the action of the plug.

Good question and good responses.

Pete,
Just a few thoughts about cut trebles: I have lots of experience (more than I wish to remember) with all aspects of failed treble hooks. I prefer to use non-cut trebles and attach them with heavy duty split rings on almost all my plugs.

That said, I have never had a cut treble fail (on a hook-up) where the cut was. They would straighten like the non-cut trebles but the “cut” never failed on a fish. The cut trebles do have a tendency to break when trying to remove them as has been said by others on this thread. When metal is bent it weakens – cut trebles should be used once - then discarded.

I use heavy duty split rings on my plugs – what I’ve learned is that split rings give your treble hook more room to rotate so as to counteract a bass’s ability to gain leverage and straighten them. Split rings are especially important in connecting the rear treble of the plug. I have had split rings fail on occasion but I believe that having them on has prevented many more straightened trebles. Remember - these applications have been put through the ultimate test at the island in the days of big bass that seemed to take pleasure in destroying your tackle.

As far as trebles on Danny style plugs fouling: a trick I’ve learned from some of the NY crowd was to graduate the size of the trebles you use. If it’s a three treble plug use a 4/0 on the front 3/0 on the middle and 2/0 on the rear. There are so many danny style metal lips out there now that you may have to adjust treble size depending on the plug.
This should help decrease fouling.

I’m thinking about doing a new seminar on ways to tinker with plugs to improve them. It would cover loading plugs, trebles, split rings, droppers, etc. Any interest out there?
DZ

Sign me up!

As far as trebles on Danny style plugs fouling: a trick I’ve learned from some of the NY crowd was to graduate the size of the trebles you use. If it’s a three treble plug use a 4/0 on the front 3/0 on the middle and 2/0 on the rear. There are so many danny style metal lips out there now that you may have to adjust treble size depending on the plug.
This should help decrease fouling.

I’m thinking about doing a new seminar on ways to tinker with plugs to improve them. It would cover loading plugs, trebles, split rings, droppers, etc. Any interest out there?
DZ


I've been able significantly slow tangling by using the new Wolverine #5 splits on my Dannys. It's almost as good as using open-eye hooks; both the small size of the split ring as well as the width helps tuck the hook up close to the plug. I'm tempted to stick with it now despite occasional tangles. The past few seasons I've been running just a teaser on the tail with 2 3/0's on the belly. The fish seem to approve...

A plug tweaking seminar would be great! No one is really doing anything like that, outside of Steve McKenna with Sluggos. And everyone loves that presentation.

A plug tweaking seminar would be great! No one is really doing anything like that, outside of Steve McKenna with Sluggos. And everyone loves that presentation.[/QUOTE]

Oooohhh yeah....
love to pick the brain of the master :D
D.. got some new pocket rockets... lighter than normal for calmer water.... One has your name on it... maybe the march meeting....:pop:

I’m thinking about doing a new seminar on ways to tinker with plugs to improve them. It would cover loading plugs, trebles, split rings, droppers, etc. Any interest out there?
DZ

Count me in, I loved your last talk as well

:spin: I have yet to see a darter that swims better with a split ring than without it.
I cut VMC hooks on most of my plugs.The only exception is my pencils and sometimes needles.I wouldn't dream on putting one on junior atom or a darter.Do they open ? Not that I ever experienced or seen.I did have a 2/0 closed eye VMC straitened out............tight drag........
To those of you who automatically add split rings to all your plugs ...a thought....
I know a well known builder who literally breaks his a** to get a swivel burred into the body as deep as possible so that the hook without the split ring doesn't hang low.Now when you add a ring you kind of defeat the purpose.....not that I am advocating that the buyer of a plug should not be able to rig it anyway it wants ,mind you......another thing ...did you ever consider that by adding a split rig you just added another thing that can possibly fail (at worst possible times of course)?:uhuh:

Fact is When you Cut a closed eyed V.M.C. YOU weaken the hook expose it to more corrosion , There is No way you are going to Break a Wolverine Split Ring. Or bend a 6x strong V.M.C.,Also with the ring you are talking about adding a little length which may change the action on some Plugs but Very little if Any,I've tried with and with out rings on some New swimmers that will be out this Year and there was NO change in action........ So some say potato and some say potatoe...........Its a Personal Perference thingy....................Do what Works for You.

Good point John ."Whatever works for you " is a good motto to have ,not just while fishing but in life too.

Out of curiously did anyone's hook ever open at the eye by a fish ?Mustad ,cut VMC ,whatever brand ?
I seen plenty of hooks straiten out but I am yet to see eye opened up ?
Anyone cares to share ?

I have changed all of my tail hooks to single. I am slowly changing belly hooks to singles as well. I am a flyfishing convert, trebble hooks are nasty. I do not like hooking a fish w/3-9 points, when I can do it w/one. Trebbles do increase hookup/landing ratio, however, it is not worth the cost to the fishing stock. Hooks in the eye, spine, gut and cheek drive me nuts. I feel like a freeking gill netter, killing anything within the grasp of my hooks. I'd rather land fewer fish than fowl hooking a schoolie w/3 sets of trelbes lodged into its body.

In my opinion, if you keep a tight line to the fish you do not need 9 points to land the fish. My dad caugt a 64# bass on a single hook w/ eel. Why do we need so many extra points w/artificials?

Good point John ."Whatever works for you " is a good motto to have ,not just while fishing but in life too.

Out of curiously did anyone's hook ever open at the eye by a fish ?Mustad ,cut VMC ,whatever brand ?
I seen plenty of hooks straiten out but I am yet to see eye opened up ?
Anyone cares to share ?

Never, and judging by the posts in this thread it's rare or simply doesn't occur. Which is exactly what I wanted to have confirmed.

A hook with 3 sets of trebles is just not needed, I remove all hooks then beef up the front treble 1 to 2 sizes I then dress a swash hook either 5/0 or 6/0 on 2 oz and above leaving the middle treble off. Bass will take the front hook and blues on the rear. I just don't like the cut hook thing.

Zeno, I have never had one open Because I always remove them.

How many of you have seen when you are changing your hooks like a Mustad or cut V.M.C , When grabing the eye of the hook and opening it with your plyers with no effort it Breaks, I'd rather play it safe and stay with the closed eye ,Because when you cut the hook you are weakening it, I feel you are asking for trouble and why take that chance and Loose the Fish of a life time It may not Happen but it Could........................Also I make Pencil Poppers with 2 Single Hooks and it Works fine, Try it.

How many of you have seen when you are changing your hooks like a Mustad or cut V.M.C , When grabing the eye of the hook and opening it with your plyers with no effort it Breaks, I'd rather play it safe and stay with the closed eye

I've seen it happen more often than not with a Mustad open eyed hook. On plugs that are brand new out of the wraper---both Gibbs and Superstrike. It's been a problem for about 3-4 years now.

But, I never had it happen with one I put on myself, back when Mustad still made good hooks. And I rigged hundreds of plugs for Hawg Hunter Brad over the years. I put the hook on, took the crimping pliers, and gave it one firm squeeze, and where the end of the eye ended up, it stayed. I think some guys play with the eye too much to get it flush with the other side of the eye.

Now, on the changing the size of the hook deal by adding a split ring--take a 4/0 Mustad, a 4/0 Eagle Claw, and a 4/0 VMC and put them side by side. The shank length of the VMC is shorter by a good 3/4". When you add a ring to the swivel and put on a shorter shanked treble, you ain't really changing squat, length wise.

Out of curiously did anyone's hook ever open at the eye by a fish ?Mustad ,cut VMC ,whatever brand ?
I seen plenty of hooks straiten out but I am yet to see eye opened up ?
Anyone cares to share ?
Goo Goo eyes with 4/0 open eye mustads this year. Opened the front hook eye up, landed the fish on the tail hook. Had a fishing partner loose a bass last year on Block after a lengthy battle. The plug went out with a pair of 3/0 mustad open eyes, came back without any hooks. 2 seasons ago, another fishing partner was throwing a Gibbs darter and dropped a good bass during the the battle. Brought the plug in and one of the hooks was gone. He had 3/0 or 4/0 open eye mustads on the plug. So, it does happen, just not as often as hooks straighten.

A hook with 3 sets of trebles is just not needed, I remove all hooks then beef up the front treble 1 to 2 sizes I then dress a swash hook either 5/0 or 6/0 on 2 oz and above leaving the middle treble off. Bass will take the front hook and blues on the rear. I just don't like the cut hook thing.

Zeno, I have never had one open Because I always remove them.

That works on some plugs but screws up the action on others, especially dannies and other metal lips IMO. Metal lips are very sensative and really have to be treated on a lure to lure basis. Beachmaster dannies for example don't swim as well with the middle treble removed or with split rings added.

had a bunch of cut Mustad 9510XXXS 6/0 Siwash fail a few years ago. Don't like the idea of a cut hook anymore. I believe split rings are the way to go.

had a bunch of cut Mustad 9510XXXS 6/0 Siwash fail a few years ago. Don't like the idea of a cut hook anymore. I believe split rings are the way to go.

The stainless Siwash are almost as bad as the cut Mustad trebles :wall:

How bad on the Mustad Siwash 3X SS strong closed eye siwash?

Just getting ready to buy some for plastic/rubber rigging.

Thanks,
Another Knuckleheaded Mike

How bad on the Mustad Siwash 3X SS strong closed eye siwash?

Just getting ready to buy some for plastic/rubber rigging.

Thanks,
Another Knuckleheaded Mike

Dunno about the closed eye. The cut eyes are very brittle and snap easily.

I use the tinned Siwash by Mustad. But, they're old hooks and Mustad may have changed the metalurgy.

What Mike said.....

I`ll post later this season as to how they hold up


lots of line on the reel and cafeful drag adjustment will be in the mix.

It's about the way metal is worked. To make a hook keep it's shape it needs to have a certain amount of "work hardening" or temper in it. In many cases the material is worked to a point during bending and forging probably gets the material close to it's ultimate strength. After you cut the hook, open it and close it again you are very close to going beyond the ultimate strength and the hook is subject to failure. Add to that the protective coating may be damaged in the process and you have corrosion sites that can further weaken the hook.

One bend you are OK, like Mike P says try to adjust it after it is closed and you take the metal beyond what it can handle and the eye fails. Smae thing with the SS siwash hooks.

After all that I still use open eyes......

I use 3/0 or 4/0 open eye Mustads on all of my plugs without the split rings. The only plugs I keep the split rings on are my swimmers ( Cordells etc.) because I'm too lazy to take them off. I use the open eyes with the split rings too.I've never had a fish open an eye on me. I have had many fish bend and destroy trebles on me though. I just make sure that I check my hooks before every outing. Yes when the hook has rusted and it's time to replace, the open eye on the Mustad does break. But I never allow this to get that far because I am always replacing the trebles. I understand that plug builders use these split rings because if they ever had a fish open up an eye on a customer that would be the end of it. To me the split ring is just another step I don't need to go with.

Pete,
was replacing hooks on some of my beachmasters tonight and with little effort the cut vmc's snapped :hs: ..after being changed in the fall and rinses withfreshwater on a regualr basis...makes you think when the fat lady comes along ifr the cuts will withstand her 50+ POUNDS OF STRENGTH
i know some plug builders such as beAchmaster swear by no split rings because it effects the action, but from what i saw tonight i will never go with cuts again....

JIM

Zeno,

Opened the eye on a mustad open eyed hook last fall, was very pissed.. Never again no mustads for me.

The duratin mustads are crap.I can't believe they try to pawn this crap off on us.They have no clue.It seems to me that the people at VMC changed the metal composition of there hooks also.I cut my VMC's an bend em to the side like the old mustad cut hooks.I did some testing going back an forth to see brittle the hook is.If I remember right 5 or 6 times till it broke.A mustad will be lucky to go 3 times.never had any trouble with em.The newer ones I have seem to bend easier.No I'm not getting stronger.I use all kinds of hooks old mustads in the cardboard box #'s 7794 a nice hook has a shorter shank than the 3549.Owners Stingers the silver one is the strongest hook I have ever seen.heavier than most hooks so they only go one some plugs.4x VMC's, 6x VMC's I am constantly changing hooks dependin on the situation.Cut an with splitrigs.Hey stuff happens.yea hooks open I seen split rings dissapear i think they can started an thread off.I love sealing plugs up so there is no water penetration but Then u have a hanger an a splitring.Not the best combination there is a locking point an a good fish can make the best hooks look stupid.Or they can do the houdini thing an worm the splitring off the hanger.Seen it happen.Fishing at night u can't inspect all the little things as u cast u gotta have faith in ur experience.

Hey Nib :wavey:

Hey Johnnee.:wavey:

Sounds to me like you guys don't change your hooks enough. Shoot I change up my hooks probably every other trip out. I gave up on rinsing my plugs off. I've come to the realization that if your fishing alot, the only solution is to switch out hooks often.

Funny, that was exactly my thought! Yes, cut VMC's or non- cut-- they suck corrosion- resistance- wise! Their down- side is they don't last long at "full strength". Pete's also quite right that even VMC 4x trebles often come with a dull point or two out of the box, & so EVERY point needs to be checked with no assumptions of "factory- sharpness" ever made! And: personally, I'm glad when I get ONE full season out of a VMC 4x hook on my heavily fished plugs! (You bet I double- check & replace for the Fall run!). So the answer is: cut away!... don't worry about using markers/ protectants on the cut or points... JUST change once a season, or yes-- more frequently if/ when certain well- fished VMC's are starting to look haggard.

I'm cutting VMC's now for 4 years... & haven't had the cut fail once! BUT: in Jan. when I'm removing old/ hard- fished ones from pet plugs-- yes, they seem to break at the cut then frighteningly easily! :eek:

I am going into my 4th season cutting VMC hooks and between my buddys and I we have no failures. Last season I switched to the 6x hooks and love them, although they are tough to cut. I am also very meticulous about changing my hooks often as my lure bag spends a lot of time underwater.

I gotta go fishing with you guys.I have never had a hook straightened out by a fish,can't even imagine it.You're into the big mommas!

Had a Momma almost completely straighten a 4x 4/0 Treble fitted to my large Gibbs Pencil after a 5- minute epic battle on a stormy Fall day... despite that the plug swivel held, and I was "only" using 20 lb. mono., and the line never parted! (obviously)! :scream2:

Still keep that bent- out hook hanging in my workshop, as a reminder of what the biggest Bass can do to top- shelf tackle! (forget about crappy hooks & tackle!! Hear that Storm Wildeye fans? :hs: )

I gotta go fishing with you guys.I have never had a hook straightened out by a fish,can't even imagine it.You're into the big mommas!

Doesn't have to be a momma, and it doesn't require overstressing the hook. If a fish is able to get leveage on the hook by using the plug's body as a fulcrum, the hook can straighten. I've done it to 4/0 3x strong Mustads using 20# mono and a soft Lami S-glass rod. Even bluefish can do it.