Hold onto your hats boys and girls, the Mid-east is about to blow! Iraqi civil war will make the Khmer Rouge guys look like amateurs. The Iran gets into the fray, we are there left holding our jockstraps because everyone except Britain will bail. Syria starts dumping arms and men into it and boom! Thank you President Bush, Vice President Cheney and Sec. Rumsfeld, the world is about to ignite because of your piss poor leadership. Somebody please, can we get these turkeys out of office now? The Gold Star Mothers membership is going to skyrocket now. If you have a son, daughter, father, mother, brother, sister, cousins or friends in the Military start praying real hard that the inevitable somehow is miraculously avoided.:(

What happened? I missed it!!
Even if the GOP is in power it will be the status quo. We ain't going to be able to get out of this one. They will bring it to us soon!!

If they bring back the draft I am pretty sure the Bush girls are of age!:rtfm: That is if the draft applies to women?

I saw this one coming quite awhile ago...all the way back to when Bush Sr. did not finish the job!:mad:

If they bring back the draft I am pretty sure the Bush girls are of age!:rtfm: That is if the draft applies to women?

I saw this one coming quite awhile ago...all the way back to when Bush Sr. did not finish the job!:mad:

They dont draft chicks

Pretty sad at the mosque they bombed...it was an amazing piece of art and architecture.

I really hope people realize that the f'ups leading up to and into Iraq were not random or casual mistakes. It's the product of a small group of idiologically motivated people with near absolute power making arrogant and reckless decisions in the name of power and fear.

Hope they can settle this down, cause it could be very ugly.

-spence

They don't currently draft men either but that too could change. (Besides...it was a joke):jester:

Hold onto your hats boys and girls, the Mid-east is about to blow! Iraqi civil war will make the Khmer Rouge guys look like amateurs. The Iran gets into the fray, we are there left holding our jockstraps because everyone except Britain will bail. Syria starts dumping arms and men into it and boom! Thank you President Bush, Vice President Cheney and Sec. Rumsfeld, the world is about to ignite because of your piss poor leadership. Somebody please, can we get these turkeys out of office now? The Gold Star Mothers membership is going to skyrocket now. If you have a son, daughter, father, mother, brother, sister, cousins or friends in the Military start praying real hard that the inevitable somehow is miraculously avoided.:(

Yeah its all Bush's fault. The muslims have nothing to do with all the violance in the world. Its all Bush. :rollem:

Pretty sad at the mosque they bombed...it was an amazing piece of art and architecture.

I really hope people realize that the f'ups leading up to and into Iraq were not random or casual mistakes. It's the product of a small group of idiologically motivated people with near absolute power making arrogant and reckless decisions in the name of power and fear.

Hope they can settle this down, cause it could be very ugly.

-spence

Spence, that was perfectly put. Let's hope real hard.

Bush certainly is not helping! I again ask....Why must the United States seek to put its Demoratic foot in everyone elses door???? Why??? Why are we trying to force these countries to accept Democracy??? Here in lies the problem...let them live and let live!!! Once and for all this Government has to begin taking care of number one and let these other governments crumble on their own in their own good time! Why must we shed American blood on their behalf?:mad:

They dont draft chicks


Like BF said they don't draft men either.

When the Draft was last used Women were not allowed in Combat. They are Now....so that WILL change....If there is a draft they will be part of it.

Bush certainly is not helping! I again ask....Why must the United States seek to put its Demoratic foot in everyone elses door???? Why??? Why are we trying to force these countries to accept Democracy???
A key belief among neoconservatives is that:

1. American values are universal (very Wilsonian)
2. As the World super power, it's the duty of the USA to spread democracy by removing tyrants and despotic regiemes
3. The pre-emptive use of force is justified to solve these problems

So to the neocon's, oppressed people want us to use force if it will bring them freedom, and as Americans it's our duty to do so!

Unfortunately, it's not a very worldly viewpoint and has led to the absurd and reckless assumptions and manipulation that have screwed everything up.

-spence

Yeah its all Bush's fault. The muslims have nothing to do with all the violance in the world. Its all Bush. :rollem:


How many American Service Men were in Iraq before he was President? How many Now?

He's the Head Cheese and Commander in Chief of the Military....Yeah it is his fault....at least some of it

If everything went Stellar over there you'd bet He'd be grabbing all the Praise and Glory.


Geesh... Even Spiderman knows "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility"

Bush certainly is not helping! I again ask....Why must the United States seek to put its Demoratic foot in everyone elses door???? Why??? Why are we trying to force these countries to accept Democracy??? Here in lies the problem...let them live and let live!!! Once and for all this Government has to begin taking care of number one and let these other governments crumble on their own in their own good time! Why must we shed American blood on their behalf?:mad:


You dont get it. We let them do what they wanted to for years and they became breeding grounds for terroism. So you want the US to sit back and let these countrys keep funding and supporting terrosists so we have more 9/11's?? I could care less if they wany to cut each others throats, but when it affects us we cant sit back and do nothing! Spreading democracy is the only hope to show those people they have a future and to hopefully stabalize the terroist supporting governments. You guys have the pre 9/11 mentallity and its scary.

You dont get it. We let them do what they wanted to for years and they became breeding grounds for terroism. So you want the US to sit back and let these countrys keep funding and supporting terrosists so we have more 9/11's?? I could care less if they wany to cut each others throats, but when it affects us we cant sit back and do nothing! Spreading democracy is the only hope to show those people they have a future and to hopefully stabalize the terroist supporting governments. You guys have the pre 9/11 mentallity and its scary.

How is this for "pre 9/11 mentality, or should I say mental illness:

President Bush on Thursday defended his administration's decision to allow a company from an Arab country to operate six major U.S. ports, saying, "People don't need to worry about security."

"This deal wouldn't go forward if we were concerned about the security of the United States of America," Bush told reporters during a Cabinet meeting.

A key belief among neoconservatives is that:

1. American values are universal (very Wilsonian)
2. As the World super power, it's the duty of the USA to spread democracy by removing tyrants and despotic regiemes
3. The pre-emptive use of force is justified to solve these problems

So to the neocon's, oppressed people want us to use force if it will bring them freedom, and as Americans it's our duty to do so!

Unfortunately, it's not a very worldly viewpoint and has led to the absurd and reckless assumptions and manipulation that have screwed everything up.

-spence

So what would you do to stop terroism and keep radical muslims from attacking the US? Obviosly the pre 9/11 liberal policies failed us. What is your solution to the problem?

You dont get it. We let them do what they wanted to for years and they became breeding grounds for terroism...You guys have the pre 9/11 mentallity and its scary.
Skip, you have the pre-school mentality and it's scary :rtfm: :zup:

The notion we've let them alone is absurd and just plain wrong.

The entire ruling structure in the Middle East was put into place by Western post-colonial powers to ensure the flow of oil after WW2.

The CIA has TWICE disrupted the government in Iran, helping to overthrow a DEMOCRATICLLY elected leader in 1953 and propping up the Shaw in the 1970's who's secret police killed thousands.

We spend 5+Billion to help defeat the USSR in the 1980's, training future terrorists only to watch Pakistan insert the Taliban as a ruling power.

We have given the King of Saudia Arabia continued military protection for the past 50 years to ensure below market oil prices, while they've used the money and support to oppress their people and spread radical Islam and anti-western propaganda.

We supported Saddam/Iraq with money and weapons (including some WMD) to fight a proxy war with the USSR through Iran.

We've used the UN to shield Isreal, unfairly at times, from any International pressure for the past 30 years.

And on and on and on...

-spence

Bush certainly is not helping! I again ask....Why must the United States seek to put its Demoratic foot in everyone elses door???? Why??? Why are we trying to force these countries to accept Democracy??? Here in lies the problem...let them live and let live!!! Once and for all this Government has to begin taking care of number one and let these other governments crumble on their own in their own good time! Why must we shed American blood on their behalf?:mad:

Heck Hitler never caused any problems towards the US at first either. We sat back and let him take over half of Europe and did nothing. Taking over countrys of our friends, murdering, raping innocents and we sat and did nothing. Is this the kind of mentallity you want our gevernment too have? heck i doesnt affect me so who the %$%$%$%$ cares? Thats a scary way think.

Skip, you have the pre-school mentality and it's scary :rtfm: :zup:

The notion we've let them alone is absurd and just plain wrong.

The entire ruling structure in the Middle East was put into place by Western post-colonial powers to ensure the flow of oil after WW2.

The CIA has TWICE disrupted the government in Iran, helping to overthrow a DEMOCRATICLLY elected leader in 1953 and propping up the Shaw in the 1970's who's secret police killed thousands.


We spend 5+Billion to help defeat the USSR in the 1980's, training future terrorists only to watch Pakistan insert the Taliban as a ruling power.

We have given the King of Saudia Arabia continued military protection for the past 50 years to ensure below market oil prices, while they've used the money and support to oppress their people and spread radical Islam and anti-western propaganda.

We supported Saddam/Iraq with money and weapons (including some WMD) to fight a proxy war with the USSR through Iran.

We've used the UN to shield Isreal, unfairly at times, from any International pressure for the past 30 years.

And on and on and on...

-spence

Yeah its all OUR fault. The muslims would be good solid folks if it wasnt for us damn Amercians.:hs: You still didnt mention what your plan for destroying and taking down terroists and terroists states are?

Nastrodamus was right

Skip, it aint worth it.

Heck Hitler never caused any problems towards the US at first either. We sat back and let him take over half of Europe and did nothing. Taking over countrys of our friends, murdering, raping innocents and we sat and did nothing. Is this the kind of mentallity you want our gevernment too have? heck i doesnt affect me so who the %$%$%$%$ cares? Thats a scary way think.

I think thats an unfair comparison, although I agree with your point.
Germany suffered Humuliation in WW1, and were starving literally for anyone that could take charge and lead their country. Hitler was in the right place at the right time, and seized the opportunity.Once in power ,it was impossible for the PEOPLE to remove him. The rest is history. This is the whole point. Once a dictator is in a position of such IMMENSE power, he cant be VOTED out. You have to physically remove him.
Germans are a civilized people, WW2 is in the past & they have been more than contrite IMO, much like slavery is in the past for us here in the good ol USA. Their History is more than you & I could read about in a lifetime, comparing the people of Germany(at any time in history) to these animals in the middle east ? Please, I would not even dignify that with a response.
WE(US, EUROPE et al) ARE more civilized,so why cant we just come out and FREAKING say it. If WE dont find a resolution, WHO WILL ??
Can someone answer that one question for me and I will shut up.

Is anyone still wondering why Bush 41---who's forgotten more about world affairs than his son ever learned---left Saddam in power after liberating Kuwait? For all of the bad advice W got, the best advice he could have received was from his Dad, and he didn't listen to it :(

When you have a country made up of ethnicities/cultures who historically hate each others' guts, only a brutal dictator can hold it together--look what happened in the Balkans after Tito died.

That being said--a reckoning with Iran has been brewing since 1979. Now that we've removed the natural counterweight to their influence in the region, it's inevitable that our military will have to pay that price. The day we leave Iraq, is the day the Revolutionary Guards march south, and it plays out just like Tom Clancy depicted it in one of his books--a "United Islamic Republic" and the whole region goes kablooey.

I really hope people realize that the f'ups leading up to and into Iraq were not random or casual mistakes. It's the product of a small group of idiologically motivated people with near absolute power making arrogant and reckless decisions in the name of power and fear.

Hope they can settle this down, cause it could be very ugly.

-spence

Just to be perfect clear, that small group of people is also called the Congress of the Untied States.

Skip, it aint worth it.

I know...I don't know why i even bother.

Skip, point counterpoint makes debate a good thing. I don't agree with just about 80% of what your saying but I agree that you can say it and shouldn't be bashed for it. Keep your opinions sacred and stick with them please and don't give up defending your views.:uhuh:

Just to be perfect clear, that small group of people is also called the Congress of the Untied States.
Well, no actually. Congress didn't vote to go to war, they voted to allow the President to use force to protect the country if necessary and if the Admin could prove that Saddam had WMD and links to al Qaida.

It's pretty clear today they were led just like the rest of us. Did they ask the difficult questions and provide the proper oversight? Probably not, but that doesn't mean they were complicit.

-spence

concerning the mosque.....see that particular building being as old as it was...(and our government realizes the signifigance of it but many do not) it was the fabled place that mohamed ...their version of jesus was supposed to return to....and ironically the other shrine where jesus is foretold to return is nearby.... i believe
...i saw a whole program on these ideology's on the history channel.. and bigfish and whoever else...
Bush has already lost control regardless if anythings his fault or not.
the destruction of the mosque was a particularly huge milestone!
this EVENT has totally changed the landscape of religious power.

what i'm wondering is: what our position is (militarilly) when the Civil war just explodes because we cannot take sides in a secular war....

we're only there to fight the terrorist's...the jhadists...insurgents.

and i'm in agreement of a pull back....not a shove in.....with a draft.

Flaptail : whats your idea concerning the Civil war scenario?

Skip, point counterpoint makes debate a good thing. I don't agree with just about 80% of what your saying but I agree that you can say it and shouldn't be bashed for it. Keep your opinions sacred and stick with them please and don't give up defending your views.:uhuh:

I will always speek my mind and dont care what people think of my views. Even when poeple like Nebe attempt to align me and Rebublicans with Nazi's and make personal attacks about my mother. Its just tough talking politics on a New England fishing website where 90% of the people are probably Liberal Democrats. But whatever, i'll take you guys on like i always do. Maybe knock some sense into some of you :devil:

And why are so many on the left who are opposed to the war in Iraq and want our military outta there so in favor of a draft? If you have a draft that means you'd want more troops in the fight. So they want more troops on the ground but want to pull out of Iraq? If you want to pull out why do you want more troops? That logic makes no sense:huh:

Who said they were in favor of a draft? I don't see that in this thread

And why are so many on the left who are opposed to the war in Iraq and want our military outta there so in favor of a draft? If you have a draft that means you'd want more troops in the fight. So they want more troops on the ground but want to pull out of Iraq? If you want to pull out why do you want more troops? That logic makes no sense:huh:

Skip; not even close...
As a "lefty" I dont support the war in Iraq, I havent from the begining. However, wanting the draft is different that wanting more troops on the ground....
I was pretty close to draft age when we invaded iraq, I'm a bit outside the range now, however, the people that support the draft (I personally dont) want a more class-free selection of who is fighting and dying for the war.

Its just tough talking politics on a New England fishing website where 90% of the people are probably Liberal Democrats.
90% :confused:

I'd wager less than 10% of the users on this site are genuine "liberal democrats"...

-spence

And why are so many on the left who are opposed to the war in Iraq and want our military outta there so in favor of a draft?
Because it's not true. Sen. Rangle proposed this as a PR stunt a few years ago and the GOP pundits you blindly follow have used it to whitewash the Democratic party and scare people.

To be fair, there have been many on the left who have used it to scare people as well :)

But the notion that the left is calling for a draft is simply not true.

Bryan, what you say above is accurate...although when you include the Guard and Reserves it's probably more balanced than it is sometimes presented as...

Though due to recruiting problems, they are lowering standards to include more w/o a high school diploma...and certainly they don't put up as many billboards in affluent areas!

-specne

We're seeing the beginning of a civil war in Islam. It was bound to happen, our meddling just sped it up. Two of the words that I used aren't a precise as I would like "meddling" and "civil", but you get what I mean. Sadaamit held all the little factions apart, or killed one side or the other. Kept their heads down, so to speak. We come along without a clue to their culture and they go after one another like they have to catch up. It's gonna get bad and it's gonna spread.

So in a nutshell...like I said....we should and should have left well enough alone!:doh:

Yeah its all OUR fault. The muslims would be good solid folks if it wasnt for us damn Amercians.:hs: You still didnt mention what your plan for destroying and taking down terroists and terroists states are?
Skippy, if you get fat and your girlfriend tells you are fat...are you going to deny it, or reflect on the things that made you fat and alter your behavior so you don't get more fat?

Doesn't mean you can't have some ice cream, but the pizza and 6 pack dinners have got to go.

I remember reading in the late 1990's how radical Islam was actually on the decline around the world. The main sources of violence in Palestine and Chechnya had more to do with politics than religion.

To destroy terrorists we need to.

A - Lead by example - to spread democracy we need to abide by the rule of law ourselves, respect the dignity of human life and operate transparently and honestly as much as possible...to both the world and the American people.

B - Strive toward energy independence and a balanced budget to limit the influence of nations like Saudia Arabia and others.

C - Develop global coalitions to strengthen a unified position. China and Russia currently have more to gain from Iran's current leadership than if we initiated reform through military force.

D - When we do get a line on real terrorists, let the bullets fly.

The simple fact is that mass bombing and actions that seem to randomly dehumanize will create a net gain in the terrorist population. We need to extinguish the fire by cutting off the oxygen instead of fanning the flames...

Given the wheels that are in motion right now, Mike P may just be right...hold on.

-spence

So in a nutshell...like I said....we should and should have left well enough alone!:doh:
We just kicked this turd open, shoulda left Iraq the hell alone until they actually did us harm. Now the stink is overwhelming us. We shoulda kept our focus in Afghanistan. They did do us harm. The real pity is the cheapness of life in this whole mess.

A key belief among neoconservatives is that:

1. American values are universal (very Wilsonian)
2. As the World super power, it's the duty of the USA to spread democracy by removing tyrants and despotic regiemes
3. The pre-emptive use of force is justified to solve these problems

So to the neocon's, oppressed people want us to use force if it will bring them freedom, and as Americans it's our duty to do so!

Unfortunately, it's not a very worldly viewpoint and has led to the absurd and reckless assumptions and manipulation that have screwed everything up.

-spence

Categorizing anyone who who does not embrace the Liberal agenda as "NeoCons" who adhere to these "key beliefs" is just one of the countless reasons why a Liberal cant be elected to the Presidency. Keep up the good work for the GOP.

Categorizing anyone who who does not embrace the Liberal agenda as "NeoCons" who adhere to these "key beliefs" is just one of the countless reasons why a Liberal cant be elected to the Presidency. Keep up the good work for the GOP.
I didn't catagorize anybody, but if the shoe fits...

-spence

Categorizing anyone who who does not embrace the Liberal agenda as "NeoCons" who adhere to these "key beliefs" is just one of the countless reasons why a Liberal cant be elected to the Presidency. Keep up the good work for the GOP.

I don't think Spence is labelling all conservatives or Republicans as neocons. Neocon is different animal: Cheney family, Kristol family, Paul Wolfowitz, Norman Podhoretz, Elliot Abrams, Robert Kagan, Richard Perle, Doug Feith- the foreign policy makers in the Bush admin.

from: http://alternet.org/story/15481/"Contrary to appearances, the neoconservatives do not represent a political movement, but a small, exclusive club with incestuous familial and personal connections. Neoconservatives are former liberals (which explains the "neo" prefix) who advocate an aggressive unilateralist vision of U.S. global supremacy, which includes a close strategic alliance with Israel. "

I don't think the "former liberal" description is that accurate, though I've seen it thrown around.

For sure some of the "early" neoconservative thinkers were former socialists, but the current crop were more intellectual conservatives that rejected the liberalisim of the Vietnam war.

Funny thing is that so many Goldwater and Reagan conservatives (including perhaps Bush 43) are just now realizing that they've been duped into aligning themselves with the neoconservatives simply because they saw liberal democrats as the only other alternative.

There is a tremendous number of disenfranchised moderates out there looking for leadership.

-spence

There is a tremendous number of disenfranchised moderates out there looking for leadership.


Yup.... But if I could rephrase your phrase to "There is a tremendous number of disenfranchised Americans out there looking for new Leadership for the future of America."

On that I would agree :)

-spence

That's pretty much it in the nutshell, Boss. Sometimes, it seems no one is at the wheel. Other times, those who are seem intoxicated. I have a real hard time feeling optimistic about this Country's future.

Yup.... But if I could rephrase your phrase to "There is a tremendous number of disenfranchised Americans out there looking for new Leadership for the future of America."



:wavey:

That's pretty much it in the nutshell, Boss. Sometimes, it seems no one is at the wheel. Other times, those who are seem intoxicated. I have a real hard time feeling optimistic about this Country's future.

The only reason I am optimistic is because of how many people fit into JohnR's description of a what is becoming a larger and larger number of people in this country. All we need is someone with the ability to truly lead and inspire the nation again, in a way that doesn't alienate so many people on both sides of the middle.

Someone needs to step up and run with a platform like this (http://www.striped-bass.com/Stripertalk/showthread.php?t=28836). Not an extreme liberal or conservative, just logical leadership with an eye towards the future growth, strength, and health of America as well as a better global perspective of how our actions worldwide effect us here at home both in the near future and long term.

hey here is a noble idea. get our troups out of the middle east, support pallestine's quest to achieve the respect they deserve, stop f-ing with other countries squabbles, get off saudi oil, and guess what.

There will be little to no terrorism.

This isnt rocket science.

Nebe for president! :btu:

Now what about Malaysia, North Korea, and China?

What the hell....Canada is starting to look pretty gloomy as well.

hey here is a noble idea. get our troups out of the middle east, support pallestine's quest to achieve the respect they deserve, stop f-ing with other countries squabbles, get off saudi oil, and guess what.

There will be little to no terrorism.

This isnt rocket science.
If only it were that simple.

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [i.e. non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Sura 8.37)

"Muster against them [i.e. non-Muslims] all the men and cavalry at your command, so that you may strike terror into the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others besides them who are unknown to you but known to Allah." (Sura 8.60)

"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal harshly with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate." (Sura 9.73)

"When We resolve to raze a city, We first give warning to those of its people who live in comfort. If they persist in sin, judgement is irrevocably passed, and We destroy it utterly." (Sura 17.16-17)

"We have destroyed many a sinful nation and replaced them by other men. And when they felt Our Might they took to their heels and fled. They were told: 'Do not run away. Return to your comforts and to your dwellings. You shall be questioned all.' 'Woe betide us, we have done wrong' was their reply. And this they kept repeating until We mowed them down and put out their light." (Sura 21.11-15)

oh yeah.. one more thing to solve all problems-

ABOLISH RELIGION.

world peace will only be achieved when we all can find inner peace

just looking at another mans wife
without a full covering is a sin
sex is a sin
everythings a sin
screw them and there sins
sin this:rocketem:

are you gonna hold S_B meditation classes at your house?

:jump:

to drop the big one now?




:hidin: :devil2: :faga:

dont worry. Iran is working on it.:rtfm:

We just kicked this turd open, shoulda left Iraq the hell alone until they actually did us harm. Now the stink is overwhelming us. We shoulda kept our focus in Afghanistan. They did do us harm. The real pity is the cheapness of life in this whole mess.

Wait till they did us harm huh? So you want to wait for more 9/11's before we act? Wow, thats some scary thinking :err: Like i said...Pre 9/11 thinking so many on the left have. And its down right scary.

to drop the big one now?




:hidin: :devil2: :faga:

Nope! But Nebe would be rather upset that his muslim friends could be injured. We should drop flowers not bombs. We must be nice to them and they will be nice to us. According to Nebe its that simple. It has nothing to do with radical brain washed muslims. no thats not the problem. The problem is the US is not nice enough to Osama and his buddies. Ahhh dont ya just love how the left thinks :rollem:

we are brainwashed to but not as inspired as them :pop:

we are brainwashed to but not as inspired as them :pop:

We dont go around slitting each others throats and strapping bombs to our chest in the name of Allah. Ahhh Islam, the religion of peace! And alot of you guys think you can reason with these nuts. :doh: I wish we could reason with them but that aint gonna happen anytime soon. They are beyond reason.

You crazy bastage :uhuh:



I don`t think they teach my grandson that all Muslims are the devil and the way to heaven is to kill as many as possible.

Something has to be done and it won`t be pretty.

You crazy bastage :uhuh:



I don`t think they teach my grandson that all Muslims are the devil and the way to heaven is to kill as many as possible.

Something has to be done and it won`t be pretty.

Iran has a death wish if they keep up thier crap..... Many people dont know but alot of the middle east Muslim countries backed the nazis during WWII. There was even a branch of the SS made up of foriegn muslims towards the end of the war. They supported the nazis 60 years ago and they are the new nazis today. These folks dont have a very good track record making peace.....

These folks dont have a very good track record making peace.....

The religious zealots over there have been fighting for over 1000 years. They will never agree to live peacefully with each other. Saddam kept semi control of the country by ruling with an iron fist. Not that I condone the things he did because I don't. But they seemed to work in keeping the warring factions at bay.

I personally don't believe a democratic government will ever work over there. Which ever group is elected be it sunni, shiite or whoever the loser will believe they were wronged and bloodshed will ensue. They won't settle for " ok our party lost this election. Maybe next election we will win". That will never happen. Their religious beliefs are something that most of us (myself included) will never be able to comprehend.

What should we do? I don't know. Should we pull our people out of there? We can't, we are in way too deep now. Until the people of Iraq start to turn in the "bad apples" the country will have problems. This will never happen though because what one side sees as terrorists the other side sees as martyrs. I believe a lot of the people over there live in fear of reprisal, and rightfully so.

Wait till they did us harm huh? So you want to wait for more 9/11's before we act? Wow, thats some scary thinking :err: Like i said...Pre 9/11 thinking so many on the left have. And its down right scary.
Again, we shoulda kept our focus in Afghanistan. We didn't get after 9/11. That failure only emboldened the Iraqi resistance in our present mess. I feel that "W" attacked Iraq as some weird family vendetta. His Dad,41, quit for a reason. I'm just saying that we shouldn't attack any country unless there is proof that they have done us harm, or are about to. Proof with actual facts. All these opinions here are valid BTW, these are confusing and dangerous times. Folks are only trying to sort it all out. Some look outwardly, some look inwardly. If we look inwardly and discover that we should bear some of the blame, then maybe we should be more careful in the future.

Kill them with kindness.

Any ethnic or religious group that has been oppressed does not have a good track record for maintaining peace after the yoke of oppression has been lifted.


Germany
Korea
Vietnam
Cambodia
Iran
Serbia
Iraq
Afghanistan

We could list back thru the centuries what the areas that have not been able to keep the peace. Why should we expect Iraq to be different.

Bill

Kill them with kindness.
No, not what I had in mind at all.
1. Be prepared, militarily and intelligently and show it.
2. Treat other nations fairly.
3. If and when attacked, make an example of them so that even our allies cringe. But attack the offender and only the offender. No phantom WMDs. No they might. Just they did and now they're gone.

Kill them with kindness.


Yes, Osama is really a softie deep down. :rollem:

Let them kill each other off and hope they do a great job of it.

but in my view....Iraq was like a felon let out of Jail on probation
and afterwards violated that probation so an arrest was neccessary.

The problem with this war....in essense was that the terrain makes things real difficult...mostly in Afganistan... those mountain ranges are
as dangerous as is Mt Everest.

But Iraq is a flat desert primarilly and in starting the war there, we now have a huge military base thats completely outsourced btw right smack in the middle of it....which gives us complete control over Syria Iran and any other trouble spot ....by having the materials close by.

We have yet to devise a scenario for dealing with a people whose only possesion is thier religon. Or maybe just one other thing, and AK-47.

We have yet to devise a scenario for dealing with a people whose only possesion is thier religon. Or maybe just one other thing, and AK-47.

Yup, and some want us to reason with those people :smash:

No, not what I had in mind at all.
1. Be prepared, militarily and intelligently and show it.
2. Treat other nations fairly.
3. If and when attacked, make an example of them so that even our allies cringe. But attack the offender and only the offender. No phantom WMDs. No they might. Just they did and now they're gone.

You keep saying "when" we're attacked. Why do you want to sit back and wait to get wacked yet again? This is the fundamental differance between the left and the right. The left has your mentality that we should only attack when hit. While the right feels we should hit the enemy hard on thier turf to prevent our citizens from seeing more 9/11's or worse. You just havent learned anything after 9/11 have you?:doh:

Skippy, nobody is saying we should sit back and wait. But there's a middle ground between that and a liberal application of pre-emptive violence.

You do realize that the reckless and arrogant fools you defend are putting in place a militaristic and political structure for perpetual war don't you?

It's transformation through violence, and in their minds it just might work...

The ironic thing is that many like Cheney, Wolfowitz etc... are serious students of history...yet the historic precident for their actions isn't just absent, it's nearly a reversal of their expected outcome!

-spence

Skippy, nobody is saying we should sit back and wait. But there's a middle ground between that and a liberal application of pre-emptive violence.

You do realize that the reckless and arrogant fools you defend are putting in place a militaristic and political structure for perpetual war don't you?

It's transformation through violence, and in their minds it just might work...

The ironic thing is that many like Cheney, Wolfowitz etc... are serious students of history...yet the historic precident for their actions isn't just absent, it's nearly a reversal of their expected outcome!

-spence

The blueprint for perpetual war is laid out as a directive very clearly in the Koran (look for yourself). Failure to prepare for that perpetual war will only lead us to become victims.

Yep, and the Bible says to stone all the gays to death :rollem:

All the more reason to pragmatically measure our actions. We can't win a militarized war against radical Islam.

There are hundreds of millions of Muslims who don't subscribe to Jihad.

-spence

let yee who is without sin cast the first stone....or was it misinterpreted and it should read: roll the first bone.:read:

the tree of life was a psychadelic mushroom...:uhuh:

the funniest star trek joke was.... when the Saudi Prince
visiting America said to the captain of the enterprise ACTOR...

i very much like the television show star trek....
but i must ask you one question...

why is it that i never see any Arabic people in space?

the Captain hesitates ...then sadly replies
....because in the future there are none.

What I've learned from 9/11, Skip is: If we hit them before they hit us, then that makes us them. I don't want to be them.

What I've learned from 9/11, Skip is: If we hit them before they hit us, then that makes us them. I don't want to be them.

So i'm right....you'd rather have them set off a nuke in Chicago and then strike them. Rather than go on the offensive and protect the people of the US and save our citizens. Wow, thats some scary thinking. I;m sorry but that kinda thinking scares the %$%$%$%$ outta me. And no, you haven't learned a damn thing after 9/11. Your method will get us wiped off the planet by radical Islam. Thank god you will never be president

you guys should save your energy, what has bitching on the internet ever accomplished?

So i'm right....you'd rather have them set off a nuke in Chicago and then strike them. Rather than go on the offensive and protect the people of the US and save our citizens. Wow, thats some scary thinking. I;m sorry but that kinda thinking scares the %$%$%$%$ outta me. And no, you haven't learned a damn thing after 9/11. Your method will get us wiped off the planet by radical Islam. Thank god you will never be president
Don't want the job.. My point is that we didn't take care of business after we were hit in NY. I think we went after BinLaden half assed. We had him cornered and let a bunch of tribal dolts and crooks go in for the kill in Tora Bora. Well, who woulda guessed that plan would fail? That mountain should be a lake now. I'll stand by my ideals: don't strike first, but when struck lower the boom from hell. if you don't do it that way, if you're always striking first, you only gain enemies, and they are always trying to destroy you. If they are destroyed AFTER they hit first, whoever is still standing might see the benefit in being an ally. Just my thoughts, do you realize that if we were both from the Middle East we'd be looking for blood simply because we disagree? The whole situation is schrod-up. Chicago?

you guys should save your energy, what has bitching on the internet ever accomplished?

it's our way to vent ,releive stress and communicate...and its our fun.

it's our way to vent ,releive stress and communicate...and its our fun.
Bingo! we have a winner.

So i'm right....you'd rather have them set off a nuke in Chicago and then strike them. Rather than go on the offensive and protect the people of the US and save our citizens. Wow, thats some scary thinking. I;m sorry but that kinda thinking scares the %$%$%$%$ outta me. And no, you haven't learned a damn thing after 9/11. Your method will get us wiped off the planet by radical Islam. Thank god you will never be president
Skip, what planet are you posting this nonsense from?

-spence

Good idea SkipN, Spence for president. At least he dresses better on the jetty than "W" would.

We could suggest SkipN as a rnning mate.:love:

I would gladly take Skippy as my running mate. I'm sure a little wardrobe rehab would be necessary, but compared to the challenges facing our great Nation it wouldn't be more than a warm up.

Skip, your duties are to preside over the Senate, carry my plug bag and in case anything happens that impeeds my ability to be president...resign! :bshake:

-spence

Don't want the job.. My point is that we didn't take care of business after we were hit in NY. I think we went after BinLaden half assed. We had him cornered and let a bunch of tribal dolts and crooks go in for the kill in Tora Bora. Well, who woulda guessed that plan would fail? That mountain should be a lake now. I'll stand by my ideals: don't strike first, but when struck lower the boom from hell. if you don't do it that way, if you're always striking first, you only gain enemies, and they are always trying to destroy you. If they are destroyed AFTER they hit first, whoever is still standing might see the benefit in being an ally. Just my thoughts, do you realize that if we were both from the Middle East we'd be looking for blood simply because we disagree? The whole situation is schrod-up. Chicago?

Just used Chicago as an example....

it's our way to vent ,releive stress and communicate...and its our fun.

Yup, we may seldom agree but its a way of letting off some steam. And maybe drop an f bomb when needed :devil2: And the people here who always join the debates may disagree on almost everything but we have one thing in common.....We care about the issues. Unlike most of the country who i really dont think knows whats going on:( While i disagree with Spence and Nebe on almost everything at least they have opinions, unlike so many who have no clue about anything.

I would gladly take Skippy as my running mate. I'm sure a little wardrobe rehab would be necessary, but compared to the challenges facing our great Nation it wouldn't be more than a warm up.

Skip, your duties are to preside over the Senate, carry my plug bag and in case anything happens that impeeds my ability to be president...resign! :bshake:

-spence

Can i hold your black suitcase with the buttons to the nukes please :devil:

:btu: I'll buy that. Most of this country is vapor-locked.

For being able to go to the post office, supermarket, work, Scusset Beach, Plugathon,etc. etc. ....pretty much everywhere...without fear of being blown up. Though I do wonder.
I`m very thankful for these aspects of my life which nowadays I do not take for granted.... I think about it all the time.

Who can say the same?

Its a very tough world out there... here.... always has been.

I`m Thankful,
SkitterPop :walk:

Well, Flaptail is right.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/02/26/time.iraq/index.html?section=cnn_topstories

Two weeks ago some of you guys were speculating that it looked like we were heading for a religous war between Christians and Muslims.

That would have meant that sunnis and shiites across the Arab World would have to form an alliance to defeat the Christian nations of the world and Israel. Hindsight has proven that analysis a tad off the mark.

We gave them a chance at self determination and they have chosen sectarian civil war. Recent history has shown that third world civil wars run about 10 years - that's 10 more years.

I don't think we will leave Iraq until after Bush is done with his second term. But the next President, irrespective of party, will not get elected unless he or she runs on a platform that details a relatively quick exit strategy from Iraq.