The germans coined this term about the persecution of the jews. They needed a scapegoat to distract the german people so that they could take care of their real agendas like world domination.

We are seeing this today if you read between the lines.
The big lie is WMD's and Iraq.. That is the distraction.

Meanwhile the republicans are sneakily destroying our freedoms one at a time back home and no body is outraged because we are soo caught up worrying about terrorists and un-just wars. They have loosened polution controls, handed out billions in corperate welfare, they are about to make abortion illegal, even if you are raped or a victim of incest, they are destroying our rights to privacy.. the list goes on an on..

I want my old country back
Fear is a powerful tool.

I am with you Nebe....I am not blind!:bgi:

eben- with the exception of the wmd issue, i have to agree with some of your points, can't beleive i'm saying this- what's next coffee with spence? :err:

I see it, too. Today's Democrats are tea sipping poofs compared to those of my day. Weak, weak, weak. And selfish.

and ...nixon that prick started it...

i saw him in Sanfrancisco...live...
giving a speech and all i could think
of was, he's close enough to hit with
an egg.

when George Bush talks about freedom
for Iraqi's i just wanna puke...
as he slowly but surely strips all of our's away.
the guy is the biggest bull s h i t artist that ever lived.

not long ago we had solved the deficit...it was gone...
now its so large your kid's kids wont see daylight.
what a friggan joke.

Iraq WMD"S? Nah they never had those. :hs: Hey Nebe why dont you go talk to the Kurds about Iraq and the WMD's Saddam never had.. They might have a different view than yours. You and your no WMD crap is the "big lie" The facts are on my side not yours

Tin soldiers and Bush's coming,
were finally on our own,
this summer I hear the drumming,
four dead in Ohio,
Go to get down to it,
soldiers are cuttin us down,
should have been long ago,
what if you knew her and found her dead on the ground,
how can you run when you know,
four dead in Ohio

I see it, too. Today's Democrats are tea sipping poofs compared to those of my day. Weak, weak, weak. And selfish.

They have no spine or ideas. All they do is bitch about Bush. Other than that they have nothing to offer. I have no clue what the heck they want or what they would like to do. Wich is fine with me becuase they will never win elections with no ideas and nothing but Republican bashing. Whenever Howard Dean or Al Gore opens thier mouth i laugh knowing its only helping Republicans. The Dems could do fine if they had some solid plans and ideas. The number one issue in this country is terroism, and every poll taken shows republicans crush Dems on that issue. Until they get thier act together on national security they will never win elections. They are fruitcakes on that issue. Just wait till Hillary runs in 08 and she gets smoked at the poles! :bl:

eben- with the exception of the wmd issue, i have to agree with some of your points, can't beleive i'm saying this- what's next coffee with spence? :err:

:hs:

Eben, you must have been an ostrich in a previous life. A couple Seal buddies just read this and they would like to meet you...:huh:

I wonder what it would be like to live in another country.....




How bout those Democrats, banging the drum to get us off of oil, but when someone wants to build an LNG off loading area they want to spend millions of your dollars on studies to what kind of impact there would be. Then they fight the things tooth and nail. :scream2:

iraq posesd no threat to the united states.. so what if they did have wmd's they were not going to use them to attack us. I can tell you what they did have- OIL. we tapped into it right away and bingo instant record oil profits for exxon mobile. by loosening pollution constraints their profit margins were even greater.

You guys want clean drinking water for your kids?? in many parts of our country, the rain water has teh same PH balance as vinager. :hs:

there are huge genocides that go on in Africa.. we do nothing. Why?? They have nothing we need from them.

This country has to many people as is, if you hate it here so much leave .... or are you scared :hidin:

God Bless America and support our Troops

This country has to many people as is, if you hate it here so much leave .... or are you scared :hidin:

God Bless America and support our Troops


Yes God Bless America and support our troops!

So we cannot acknowledge other issues that demand vast improvements or corrections? How many brave and patriotic soldiers are being used for unjust purposes? How many are dying or suffer life alteringly injuries for twisted purposes and most historically based upon natural resources, whether it be oil, land, gold, diamonds, etc. etc., not safety for our country or to save other countries?

I am patriotic but not blind....thats why they created the word angst.

I love my country and don`t want to leave. Yet we are far from perfect and most assuredly internationally corrupt. What major power isn`t ?

War of the Worlds is an ever constant. Its in our biology I fear.


God Bless Us All,
Mike

just remember... over 150 thousand iraqi civilians have died because we were scared that they MIGHT hurt us.

That my friends is F-ed up :hs: Do you kill your neighbor because you think he might hurt you?? Do you kill the guy down the street because he is friends with someone ho has done harm??
What we have here is a Lynch mob of epic worldly preportions..

I learned this valuable lesson in elementary school recess....the biggist pussy always throws the first punch.

Oh and i support our troops they are just following orders, its their leadership that needs the bitch slap.

So I guess both Clintons, Kerry, Gore, Boxer, Pelosi, Kennedy, Gore etc. etc. are all liars? The only Liars are those who claim Iraq never had and used Biological and Chemical weaponry.

Myself along with the majority of americans where glad to see some retaliation for the bombing on 9-11.Lets get em Go USA flags hooked on every car.U have to admit this war is turning into another veitnam.Perhaps not in the same activist ways of the late 60's but in the same long drawn out no win situation that killed many young boys an left many unseen scars 40 yrs ago.history repeats itself they say.When i was a kid i used to think this would be a great country to live in as our president would be from my generation.Boy was I wrong it almost seems as though we are going backwards....I hope our troops come home as soon as possible an may god watch over em.They are there for us.

there are huge genocides that go on in Africa.. we do nothing. Why?? They have nothing we need from them.

The largest genocide in africa occured under who? oh yeah, that's right, the Clinton administration. The same time Al Quada was bombing the WTC and my shipmates on the USS Cole.

What happened? Osama in the crosshairs but no kill order authorized.
Just fire off 10 Tomahawks and stand by for more defense cuts.

din a len den daaa It really is a very complex and megamulti- faceted situation....always has been .... no cut and dried answers or solutions. Maybe we need Bill Belechek sp? ~~~~~~ at the helm.

God Save The Queen!

Hey Eben check out this site

http://www.st911.org/

Interesting reading.

They have no spine or ideas. All they do is bitch about Bush. Other than that they have nothing to offer. I have no clue what the heck they want or what they would like to do. Wich is fine with me becuase they will never win elections with no ideas and nothing but Republican bashing. Whenever Howard Dean or Al Gore opens thier mouth i laugh knowing its only helping Republicans. The Dems could do fine if they had some solid plans and ideas. The number one issue in this country is terroism, and every poll taken shows republicans crush Dems on that issue. Until they get thier act together on national security they will never win elections. They are fruitcakes on that issue. Just wait till Hillary runs in 08 and she gets smoked at the poles! :bl:
Skip, we have found the middle ground! You're absolutely on the same page as I am here. :wave:

The biggest threat in the mideast was Irag and it money fueling terrorism around the world. The even bigger threat is Iran because of its very near in the future nuclear capabilities. If anyone here regardless of the side of the fence you sit on doesn't think that Iran wants to take over the entire mideast region in the next ten years then you live with your head in the sand. It will be too late when they have the bomb. Way to late.

nebe eben I know its one of the two. Its good to hear you support our troops, that cannot be said enough. I don't agree with much else, the recess thing has merit but comparing it to iraq is apples to mailboxes. but hey, freedom of speech is just one of the many things that make this country great!! :gu:

whoa.. i never said the democrats were innocent in all of this. I will say that they didnt tap into the 'fear issue' and use the fear of terrorism to push their ultimate agendas....


i gotta go to work now, so i am ending my A.M. rant...

Anyway, i just thought i would share my thoughts, and remember, i am a professional artist/craftsman. I am programed to hate all poloticians :hihi:

carry on :uhoh:

what's next coffee with spence? :err:
:devil2:

-spence

They have no spine or ideas. All they do is bitch about Bush. Other than that they have nothing to offer. I have no clue what the heck they want or what they would like to do.
Skip, that's because you don't take the time to understand alternate viewpoints. It doesn't mean you have to agree with them, but when you have a multi-faceted understanding you might just find the truth is in the middle and not beneath your feet.

Blindly defending a position that defies objective thought is exactly what the GOP propaganda machine has programed you to do. You don't need to think because they will do the thinking for you.

Did you know there are 40 Vets running for Congress this fall as DEMOCRATS!

I guess they're just spineless and have no ideas :yak5:

-spence

I just adore her :love:

Hey............ she could have Bill as her running mate! :bshake:

Even though she's despised by 30% of the country, Hillary would present a serious challenge to the GOP.

-spence

May God forgive me....its Saturday anyways :huh:

Skip, we have found the middle ground! You're absolutely on the same page as I am here. :wave:


See that i'm not as much of a nut as you thought! I can be right sometimes :bl:

May God forgive me....its Saturday anyways :huh:

Well I wont be there because i dont support those nuts, but i'm sure Nebe's favorite Democrat Senetor Robert Byrd will be there! Yes thats right folks, Mr Byrd, the Dem Senetor was a KKK member. And the dems love him oh so much.....:conf:

See that i'm not as much of a nut as you thought! I can be right sometimes :bl:

You are a squirrels delight all the way.... 100% nuts

Democrats hand out more welfare than anyone ever possibly could hand out.

Second if you get raped and become pregnant I'll help with the abortion costs. One state filing legislation against abortion doesn't make a country. North Dakota, thats where Mark Furman moved too.

As far as Exxon, when did they ever need help ripping us off.

Your accusing Bush of the same thing Lydon Johnson did during Vietnam, helping his business buddies.

Eben where are you getting your facts about who is profiting off of Iraqi oil??

Also where did anyone say that Iraq, or the people of Iraq were the threat? As far as I know there was a proven terrorist link between Husseins regime and Al Quaeda. What was to stop Saddam from selling biological agents, weapons plans, components or bombs to Al Quaeda? Whether or not he had WMD"S, they knew how to make them, and knowledge is just as deadly as the product itself if given to the wrong hands.

Before you make blanket statements, back it up with some facts, links to sites or articles so we can judge for ourselves. As far as I am concerned your wolf crying is just a bad as what you are blaming the Adminitstration for. I did an internet search and could not come up with any hard facts that Exxon is profiting off of Iraqi oil. Saudi oil yes, Iraqi oil no.

I'll bet you are one of those guys who does'nt want to see the drug testing on animals even if it means a cure for cancer or aids huh?

Eben where are you getting your facts about who is profiting off of Iraqi oil??

Also where did anyone say that Iraq, or the people of Iraq were the threat? As far as I know there was a proven terrorist link between Husseins regime and Al Quaeda. What was to stop Saddam from selling biological agents, weapons plans, components or bombs to Al Quaeda? Whether or not he had WMD"S, they knew how to make them, and knowledge is just as deadly as the product itself if given to the wrong hands.

Before you make blanket statements, back it up with some facts, links to sites or articles so we can judge for ourselves. As far as I am concerned your wolf crying is just a bad as what you are blaming the Adminitstration for. I did an internet search and could not come up with any hard facts that Exxon is profiting off of Iraqi oil. Saudi oil yes, Iraqi oil no.

I'll bet you are one of those guys who does'nt want to see the drug testing on animals even if it means a cure for cancer or aids huh?

He has no facts, he wishes he had the facts but there's zip. Just like him saying Iraq had no wmd's when we all know Saddam slaughtered the Kurds using wmd's. And the entire world believed he still possesed them prior to the Iraq invasion in '03. Even Bill Clinton thought Saddam still had 'em. But they like to over look those tiny facts. And Saddam also supported terroism, like giving money to family members of Hamas suicide bombers. And giving aide to Al Zarquawi (sp?) after he was wounded in Afganastan Those are facts that the left just ignores because it undercuts thier arguments that Bush lied.


As for the abortion issue. Most people having abortions have not been raped, had incest or are getting them becuase the mothers health is in jeopordy. Thats another big lie....Most people having abortions are young women who got pregnant because they wernt using protection. And aborting the baby is just an easy way to not have to be responsible for the child. Its the easy way out. He knows this but uses the rape, incest stuff to sound more mederate. Abortions should be given as a LAST resort if the mother's help is at risk. Not becuase 15 year old jenny wanted to bang her boyfriend without using protection and then gets pregnant. There is no responsibilty in this country anymore. You get knocked up have the kid, dont kill it!

Skip,I was with you until the abortion rant but now you are talking out your ass.This is an issue that should certainly be left alone.
Thanks

He has no facts, he wishes he had the facts but there's zip. Just like him saying Iraq had no wmd's when we all know Saddam slaughtered the Kurds using wmd's. And the entire world believed he still possesed them prior to the Iraq invasion in '03. Even Bill Clinton thought Saddam still had 'em. But they like to over look those tiny facts. And Saddam also supported terroism, like giving money to family members of Hamas suicide bombers. And giving aide to Al Zarquawi (sp?) after he was wounded in Afganastan Those are facts that the left just ignores because it undercuts thier arguments that Bush lied.


As for the abortion issue. Most people having abortions have not been raped, had incest or are getting them becuase the mothers health is in jeopordy. Thats another big lie....Most people having abortions are young women who got pregnant because they wernt using protection. And aborting the baby is just an easy way to not have to be responsible for the child. Its the easy way out. He knows this but uses the rape, incest stuff to sound more mederate. Abortions should be given as a LAST resort if the mother's help is at risk. Not becuase 15 year old jenny wanted to bang her boyfriend without using protection and then gets pregnant. There is no responsibilty in this country anymore. You get knocked up have the kid, dont kill it!


How about Jenny's dumb%$%$%$%$, irresponsible boyfriend using some protection and not getting 15 year old girls pregnant????? What? You think having an abortion is such a fly by night decision? Let's see, today I'll go to the dry cleaners, then to the grocery store, and oh yes, pop into the doctor's for a quick D & C......I find it so interesting that the most ardent anti-abortion people seem to be men...and they need a lesson in taking responsibility.....

How about Jenny's dumb%$%$%$%$, irresponsible boyfriend using some protection and not getting 15 year old girls pregnant????? What? You think having an abortion is such a fly by night decision? Let's see, today I'll go to the dry cleaners, then to the grocery store, and oh yes, pop into the doctor's for a quick D & C......I find it so interesting that the most ardent anti-abortion people seem to be men...and they need a lesson in taking responsibility.....


Well Jenny shouldnt be banging unless she OR the guy are using protection!! Your right its a two way street ,it goes both ways. But BOTH are responsable for thier actions. They both know what can happen when you get it on! You CAN get pregnant. Imagine that. And why can 11 year old girls have abortions without thier parents knowing? yeah that makes sense

Skip,I was with you until the abortion rant but now you are talking out your ass.This is an issue that should certainly be left alone.
Thanks


Well you know i'm right about WHO is having the abortions. Its not mostly rape victims. Its mostly young folks who find themselves in that position becuase the girl AND the guy arent being responsible. If you wanna bang be prepared for what can happen.....Thats all i'm saying. Now i'm done. I;d rather argue WMD's were i can pose FACTS. Abortion issue is all opinons and a waste of my time. No one can win this debate. Its a waste of energy. Nebe opened this can of worms and im just giving a different point of view that i guess you guys dont want to hear. But im done. I aint going down the abortion road....

Eben where are you getting your facts about who is profiting off of Iraqi oil??

As far as I know there was a proven terrorist link between Husseins regime and Al Quaeda. ******
****** Whether or not he had WMD"S, they knew how to make them, and knowledge is just as deadly as the product itself if given to the wrong hands.

******* Before you make blanket statements, back it up with some facts******


This is way off Bill......:uhoh:

Solving the problems of the worlds is exhausting , isn't it? It is stimulating banter, and we do get to know one another better through it. And I, for one, DO respect everyone here's opinion. They're all valid and that's what makes this so frustrating.

specialist- exxon mobil's profits were a result of record oil prices. Prices went up due to global conflits. Any time there is a war, prices go up. Of course supply and demand are players as well, but the iraq conflict played a huge roll in elevated prices.

Iraq's link to al queda is hardly a link at all. Take a look at how many of the hijackers came from saudi arabia.. why didnt we invade them and take over thier country?? Explain to me how Iraq aided the 9-11 hijackers please.

This is way off Bill...

Here is a link if you read the information, you will see that even the Clinton administration was saying there was a link between the 2

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/527uwabl.asp

Read and judge for yourself...

Now if you can show me some evidence that Exxon is currently profiting directly from oil coming out of Iraq, then I will believe it.

Ok here is your intial statement, that we went in there for the oil, and Exxon is profiting from it.

iraq posesd no threat to the united states.. so what if they did have wmd's they were not going to use them to attack us. I can tell you what they did have- OIL. we tapped into it right away and bingo instant record oil profits for exxon mobile.

To me this statement reads the American gov., or Exxon is running the Oil fields, and directly profiting from it. This is a big difference from the instability in a volitile Oil market

Here is a link if you read the information, you will see that even the Clinton administration was saying there was a link between the 2

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/527uwabl.asp

Read and judge for yourself...
The Weekly Standard isn't exactly the most objective source you could have quoted!

This argument is pretty simple, show me a US Government report done after the Administrations snow job that indicates there's a link.

You won't find any. The tens of millions of US taxpayer dollars spent researching the isse have come up with NOTHING.

-spence

Ok how about the Washington times:

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040624-112921-3401r.htm

how about this one:

http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy200506290912.asp

some bullets from it:

The Clinton Justice Department's allegation in a 1998 indictment (two months before the embassy bombings) against bin Laden, to wit: In addition, al Qaeda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq.


Seized Iraq Intelligence Service records indicating that Saddam's henchmen regarded bin Laden as an asset as early as 1992?


Saddam's hosting of al Qaeda No. 2, Ayman Zawahiri beginning in the early 1990’s, and reports of a large payment of money to Zawahiri in 1998?

The continued insistence of high-ranking Clinton administration officials to the 9/11 Commission that the 1998 retaliatory strikes (after the embassy bombings) against a Sudanese pharmaceutical factory were justified because the factory was a chemical weapons hub tied to Iraq and bin Laden?

Top Clinton administration counterterrorism official Richard Clarke’s assertions, based on intelligence reports in 1999, that Saddam had offered bin Laden asylum after the embassy bombings, and Clarke’s memo to then-National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, advising him not to fly U-2 missions against bin Laden in Afghanistan because he might be tipped off by Pakistani Intelligence, and “[a]rmed with that knowledge, old wily Usama will likely boogie to Baghdad”? (See 9/11 Commission Final Report, p. 134 & n.135.)

We were all had.... it was all about the oil.

If it was about the Oil then why are our companies not in their pumping the fields dry right now. Also if that were the case, then it would drive the price of a barrel of oil down, as Opec has alot to do with setting the price. Again show me some concrete proof .

If it was about the Oil then why are our companies not in their pumping the fields dry right now. Also if that were the case, then it would drive the price of a barrel of oil down, as Opec has alot to do with setting the price. Again show me some concrete proof .

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0913-14.htm

Why is it that the Sept. 11 commission found no "collaborative relationship" between Iraq and al Qaeda at all?

Why do internal CIA documents state such a relationship to be unlikely given the differing motivations?

Why is it that the Administration, who used a Saddam/Bin Laden nexus as the centerpiece of their justification for war has yet to offer any real evidence?

Remember Cheney stating it was "pretty much confirmed" that Atta met with Iraqi agents in Prague? Well, the intel now shows he was in the good old USA when that meeting occured.

Sorry, but I need to see some facts, not conservative opinion.

-spence

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0913-14.htm
Sounds like some language was burried in the bill that nobody ever read!

Wouldn't be the first time.

The article certainly doesn't support your position.

-spence

Its also about having military bases in the belly of the beast

Why do internal CIA documents state such a relationship to be unlikely given the differing motivations?


Wow I did'nt know you had access to CIA documents, you must be a G-man

You are a squirrels delight all the way.... 100% nuts


:hihi:

However, the resolution also contains language designed, despite the lack of any credible evidence, to associate the former Iraqi government of Saddam Hussein with the 9/11 attacks.

Al Qaeda = Taliban = Iraq :usd:

And if the Queen had balls she would be King :spin:

Wow I did'nt know you had access to CIA documents, you must be a G-man
Nope, just bother to read what's been released to the public :)

-spence

All I got to say!!

It's sort of funny, I think the start of this thread was the war was an issue to keep us from focusing on the war on civil rights taking place here at home.... seems to be working doesn't it?

I am so disgusted with this country today. I served my time in the US Army, as an infantryman, and couldn't have been more proud at one time. Today, I am convinced that from the President, to the Congress, to the Judiciary and every corner of Corporate America we are a nation of selfish & short-sighted people.

I am afraid I don't see a brighter future for this country. We are so wrapped up with Democrat good v. Republican bad, or Democart evil v. Republican savior, left v. right, black v. white, minority v. majority, A v. B, anything v. anything else!

It's insane. I cannot stomach the news anymore, it seems the recipe for a news program is throw two opposing viewpoints into the ring and let 'em duke it out for 7 minutes...

What a world it is.

It's insane. I cannot stomach the news anymore, it seems the recipe for a news program is throw two opposing viewpoints into the ring and let 'em duke it out for 7 minutes...
The problem is, they don't even really duke it out.

The very notion of critical journalisim has nearly crumbled under the influences of a corporate media feeding news as entertainment to a 24/7 cable news crowd.

The media pounded Bill Clinton for his actions, and thinking ahead of the game Bush has declared war on the press in an effort to control and obfuscate the issues.

What we have today are pundits from two sides who toss their charged rhetoric into the ring, with little critical analysis or challenge when they stray too far from the facts or leverage innuendo.

Spin and deception are the norm, and the average joe simply doesn't have the energy to sort through it all.

-spence

Spin and deception are the norm, and the average joe simply doesn't have the energy to sort through it all.
I have to agree.