Mine came yesterday. Anyone have a comments or brickbats about my article?

Mike,
good read.. I dom't think the people from boga would like it though as you wrote to always handle a big bass that you plan on releasing horizontally.

always look forward to the articles

I didn't expect the folks at boga to be real thrilled about it. But the fact is that if you hang any good sized fish from its mouth, like you see the guys do all the time with the boga, the fish are almost certainly going to die. Teaching that lesson was one of the main reasons I wrote the article.

I have mine in front of the keyboard as I type. I'll give an opinion later.

MakoMike - Just read the piece as I was having dinner - very very good. Lots of information and "pointers" to those of us somewhat newbies who may think we are practicing proper catch and release. Thank you!

I didn't expect the folks at boga to be real thrilled about it. But the fact is that if you hang any good sized fish from its mouth, like you see the guys do all the time with the boga, the fish are almost certainly going to die. Teaching that lesson was one of the main reasons I wrote the article.

This is agreat point and dosen't come up to often, I haven't recieved mine yet but I will read it. Thanks Mike

Interesting article. After reading about mortality from hanging, the next day theres the picture of the "new world record" largemouth. Wonder if it made it?

U want a brickbat? How Bout it'll take 2 more weeks from the day of this post before i get mine.WTF is up with that.What do they deliver em by donkey.That is all.
For now.:D

Basic PP had an article in this months OTW as well

Haven't read the article just yet, but wondering if you provide locations/cites of studies that have come to the conclusion, holding fish vertical = bad. I can see that it makes total sense, but am currious if any studies have been done on other fish, say Lg. mouth for instance. Thanks.

Mike,

Well written article and very informative. Couldn't put it down. Leaned some things that I didn't realize.

SM,
Yes I did. The studies that showed the mortality from hanging fish byt he mouth came out of Australia, and I provided a website address for them. I actually talked to the guy who did the study to get the facts.

For a long time now I have over heard many people who are critical of fish tagging as they say it contributes to the fish mortality rate. So Mike I was curious as to if the study found any corralation between the tagging of fish and mortality? If not what is you expert oppinion on the subject?

Good article, just what was needed before the season begins. It's amazing the rough handling you see out there. Good job!

Max,
The Aussies didn't study that. But my opinion is that, if the tagging is doen correctly and quickly, it should not increase the mortality of the fish. Having said that, I do think that things like the ALS tags do increase mortality, since most of the guys doing the tagging don't 1) do it quickly and 2) learn how to do it properly.

Mike, it was well written. I have to say though that I find, what with all the years I have been fishing, that a study by the Australians, which might fit a lot of species, has real knowledge of the anatomical make-up of a Striped Bass. The Striper is a fish desgined for rough conditions. I have caught them over mussell beds where they were scraping the things off of the bottom making thier lower jaws red and their undeside as well, they crush seas clams and I have caught them as they were rolling over rocks along the Elizabeths temporarily out of the water stranded on the rock itself while chasing a plug. I have a friend, who on Martha's Vineyard has caught tagged, photographed and released fish, one very large one included and has, a year to the day later, re-caught the very same fish alive and well.

On the flats of Barnstable we catch and realease bass by the hundreds. Shallow water and crystal clear where you can see each and every fish. We lip gaff the bigger ones and lip the smaller ones with our hands each and ervery time we fish there. Wouldn't we see a lot of dead fish if every one released did as the Aussie's report, meaning die?

I am not trying to demean your article, it's that I beleive that bass are much more resistant to the riggors of being handled than the Aussie study would leave us to believe they would be. It's a species by species thing.

It should have read "no real Knowledge".

Max,
The Aussies didn't study that. But my opinion is that, if the tagging is doen correctly and quickly, it should not increase the mortality of the fish. Having said that, I do think that things like the ALS tags do increase mortality, since most of the guys doing the tagging don't 1) do it quickly and 2) learn how to do it properly.

Thanks for the reply Mike

Mike, it was well written. I have to say though that I find, what with all the years I have been fishing, that a study by the Australians, which might fit a lot of species, has real knowledge of the anatomical make-up of a Striped Bass. The Striper is a fish desgined for rough conditions. I have caught them over mussell beds where they were scraping the things off of the bottom making thier lower jaws red and their undeside as well, they crush seas clams and I have caught them as they were rolling over rocks along the Elizabeths temporarily out of the water stranded on the rock itself while chasing a plug. I have a friend, who on Martha's Vineyard has caught tagged, photographed and released fish, one very large one included and has, a year to the day later, re-caught the very same fish alive and well.

On the flats of Barnstable we catch and realease bass by the hundreds. Shallow water and crystal clear where you can see each and every fish. We lip gaff the bigger ones and lip the smaller ones with our hands each and ervery time we fish there. Wouldn't we see a lot of dead fish if every one released did as the Aussie's report, meaning die?

I am not trying to demean your article, it's that I beleive that bass are much more resistant to the riggors of being handled than the Aussie study would leave us to believe they would be. It's a species by species thing.

I don't think that there is much doubt that some species are more resilient than others. I also think that there isn't much doubt as to the effects of gravity. :) The fact that you didn't see dead stripers around doesn't IMHO count for much, since the fish would not die immediately, it could take days, maybe ever weeks for the fish to dies from internal injuries. For example, if a fish's stomach gets twisted and it can't eat, how long will it take to starve to death.

I don't think that there is much doubt that some species are more resilient than others. I also think that there isn't much doubt as to the effects of gravity. :) The fact that you didn't see dead stripers around doesn't IMHO count for much, since the fish would not die immediately, it could take days, maybe ever weeks for the fish to dies from internal injuries. For example, if a fish's stomach gets twisted and it can't eat, how long will it take to starve to death.
Thats a good point but I think that with the amount of fish we catch and I see being caught and released there would be large numbers of floaters and/or wash ups even after weeks or starvation. As you say it's a species thing. Trout I would tend to believe it would do harm as in codfish etc. Bass are are kind of naturally equipped for existing in a rough tough world what with scales as hard and a really good musculoskeletal structure. Well, I respect your opinion, I disagree on the bass aspect though.

MM,

I have been biting my own lip not responding to this. I honestly don't mean anything personal and I think you are trying to send a positive sportsmanlike message that I fully support. I generally try to be as careful as possible when handling fish that I plan on releasing and think all fishermen should practice this. When thinking about this, I seem to weigh fish that I plan to take home, those that are released are generally not weighed but I have weighed and released some fish. It does bother me when I see someone kick a fish back into the surf harshly or abuse a fish in any manner. And over all I think the aricle was good in sending the message to be more careful when releasing fish.

But, when I read that sportsman that release fish are causing 100% mortality by simply weighing fish, I have to question where this is coming from.

I just don't buy that holding a fish for a short while in the vertical position harms it for a number of reasons. Those background reports you mention smell like more junk science to me. I put serious doubt in the AU study without reading it myself.

Some reasons for my disbelief:

1) The study was not done on SB. You assume that the effect is assumed across the species board. Anyone in science or engineering will tell you...assumptions are the mother of all screw-ups. In fact, SB are a rugged fish, this is no brook trout, this is a sturdy ocean-going fish I am SURE they will respond differently then what ever species they investigated. I have witnessed severe wounds (like seal bites) to these fish that continue to live on and feed, they have a strong will to live. I have my doubts that picking one up for a moment with a bogogrip will kill it as you surmise.

2) The AU study said 100% mortality if you hang them? How do I say this politely.....NO WAY. That alone (the 100% figure) tells me this study was seriously flawed. There is no way a respected technical study could show a 100% mortality unless they wanted to kill them all. Statistically (alone) this is almost impossible. Therefore I view the entire report as poor science and any responsible scientist should discard any and all conclusions they claim. I would look to see if the authors are connected with some other competing product to the bogogrip where they produced this "report" as sort of an infomercial so they might profit somehow... Typically this is the case.

3) You should have included a bibliography or index of these studies so the reader can flush out the question this study arises? Although I seriously doubt that any reader would chase it down that far. Was there a peer review this work by scientists in the US? I am not sure how they do things in AU but other leading scientists doing work in the same area generally review reports for credibility and repeatability before going public.

4) deleted.

5) In summary you state basically, Bogogrips with scales are bad for fish? Why does the IGFA then certify them for use in catch and release? I guess they are out of touch with this study. Have you discussed this with them? Are they aware of this study?

6) I noticed that a new potential Word Record Large Mouth Bass
was caught and it has been identified as the SAME FISH as was captured earlier by specific body markings. The fish weighed 21# and caught a couple years ago, WEIGHED and released, caught again and was something like 25# and was weighed and released again. There goes the 100% mortality theory. That fish should be dead.
How many times have you seen FW guys hoist up big bass by the lip flip them around in fits of joy and then and let them go? OK, they are not 50#ers but I think that there would be some mortality that would have been documented by now.
What about the millions of Tarpon and other offshore gamefishover 50# have been lip gaffed hoisted weighed and release. According to your theory, all of the should be dead. I think if this was actually happening, that it would have been identified by now as a real problem. In fact it has not. Oh, what about the fishery officals that shock fish, pull oiut the floaters, weigh and measure them and then put them back...they also seem to live on.

7) Have you ever seen the way comm. fishermen handle fish? Rough doesn’t even begin to describe it. And I am talking about the ones they don’t want and let go.

I think what bothers me the most is why does everyone blame the sportsman all the time who is trying to do the right thing and release a trophy fish while TONS of by-catch fish from draggers float on the surface and hundreds of illegal gill nets barely gets public attention. What am I missing?

Again, I know this seems like a harsh review but I believe this is article while well intentioned is promoting falsehoods about weighing fish.

I respect you as an experienced fishermen but have to disagree with the theory that weighing kills all fish.

Sets the tone for being way more careful with any fish being released.

Seems there is room for a more detailed study for Stripers though.

Questions:

Do all bass who die from ill effects of catch and release float? If not then they are food for many ocean creatures and we would never see them to know they passed on.

Do seals eat injured, dying, or dead stripers? I know lots of birds do.

I release about 99.999999% of bass I catch and try to be careful always but do wonder on ones I clip the line with hook in gut or even a torn lip or bleeding gill....though they seem to revive ok and swim off.

How about when you catch a bass which has been hooked a few times and you see all the redness and even deteriorating sores from being hooked. Or the deformation of the jaw line from the same.

Always much to think about and consider.

Skitter

I read that article yesterday as well. As sandman said, I think that many people under estimate the tough ness of the Striped Bass. I can under stand A large Bass being held up for an extended amount of time could suffer some internal injuries. However to say a bass under 5 lbs would die from being held verticaly for 12 second while removing the plug is with all due respect "ridiculous" Alot of the places I fish are rough with tons of white water and rocks and boulders which I know cause stripers to get bumped and bruised but that doesnt seem to stop them. I attached a picture of my friend holding a striper he caught last october and you can see that part of the tail is cut off, but this fish appeared healthy and had no problem attacking his eel.

I will try and avoid handeling fish improperly. I think the article made alot of good points about the slim coat on stripers which protects them and many fishing googans might not be aware of it. If your on aboat and can use a net and keep the fish in the water, I'm in support of that as well.

Just my .02

Thanks Jim.

I've also been biting my tounge on this thread.
If what the article said is fact - I'm sure many striped bass marine biologists would have jumped on this issue long ago.

There is "C&R mortality" but from my perspective - not to that extent.

Just my opinion.


DZ

Not to be a thread killer here but this is good discussion. Anyone remember the specifics of Paul Diodati's mortality study, lo so many years ago? He documented an 8% C&R mortaility on striped ones. If in the process of weighing them and handling them if they handled them in this way, wouldn't the mortality rate go way beyond the 8%?

I have not read the article yet so I can only go by some of what I see in this thread and I have not read anything beyond a summary of Diodati's study and that has been a few years on that..

Just thinking...

Not to be a thread killer here but this is good discussion. Anyone remember the specifics of Paul Diodati's mortality study, lo so many years ago? He documented an 8% C&R mortaility on striped ones. If in the process of weighing them and handling them if they handled them in this way, wouldn't the mortality rate go way beyond the 8%?

I have not read the article yet so I can only go by some of what I see in this thread and I have not read anything beyond a summary of Diodati's study and that has been a few years on that..

Just thinking...

You are right on John. They had a tank and hooked then released then studied the bass for weeks afterward. And how many time have you caught bass with a leader and a gut hook in it that just ate your plug or, in the good ol days of just last year for many, your herring?

Again, the bass is just a different animal with different physical qualities that make able to survive the stresses of living and feeiding in the very turbulant and rough world of the inter-tidal zone.

I am still waiting for my issue.......:sick:

From everything I've read it would seem that it's a pretty complicated equation.

Even taking the 8% number, you could assume that since it represents a lot of "poor" handling of fish...that those who practice good CnR would be much, much lower.

Even weighing the fish, buy the lip or in the gills could have dramatically different results.

I don't think natured ever intented a 40lb bass to be hung by it's lower lip for even a moment...this can't be good for larger fish.

I'll have to read the article so I can comment directly...

-spence

As a biologist who has taught classes in marine biology and finfish aquaculture, including a good amount of finfish anatomy and physiology, I'd have to agree that holding a large striped bass out of water by its jaw probably WILL inflict harm on the fish by damaging its gill arches. Smaller fish, like largemouth and schoolie stripers. Stripers may be tough, and adapted to harsh environments, but they are not adapted to life out of water, being hung vertically by their jaws.
I don't agree with the supposed Aussie findings of 100% mortality, and know for a fact that small bass do survive nicely (tagging recaptures disprove that 100% thing), but I believe that to safely release a large bass, you should hold it horizontally, and ideally not even remove it from the water. Even a few minutes out of water will dry out the gill filaments, damaging them and not allowing diffusion of carbon dioxide, oxygen, and ammonia through their membranes.
I have experience with fish in a scientific setting, and a good knowledge about the way they work. I'm not just spouting random opinions. Take it or leave it.

I'm not just spouting random opinions. Take it or leave it.

Well if you don't want to impart some of your hard learned uhh learnings, then, err leave it :spin:

(That was a joke btw) If you are a professional in this I for one would value your opinion - might not always agree but I will always consider it...

Thanks,

John

One thing I think you guys may have missed was that the weighing is a no-no for fish over about 20 pounds. You can weigh anything under that, though its not recommended. There will be some increase in mortality for fish uner 20 lbs that are weighed but it will not shoot up to 100% mortality, For fish over about 20 lbs the increase in mortality from weighting goes up dramatically with the size of the fish. The damage is done due to gravity, from holding the fish by its head while the internal organs are shifting, and tearing at the internal membranes, that normally hold them in place. You wouldn't se this effect in largemouth bass where fish rarely get to the 20 lb mark, and even at the 20 lb mark, the mortality is not 100%. I don't have my research materials here right now, but going from memory, the 100% mortality figure is reached at about the 35 or 40 lb mark.

I'll respond to Sandy's comments seperately.

MM,

I have been biting my own lip not responding to this. I honestly don't mean anything personal and I think you are trying to send a positive sportsmanlike message that I fully support. I generally try to be as careful as possible when handling fish that I plan on releasing and think all fishermen should practice this. When thinking about this, I seem to weigh fish that I plan to take home, those that are released are generally not weighed but I have weighed and released some fish. It does bother me when I see someone kick a fish back into the surf harshly or abuse a fish in any manner. And over all I think the aricle was good in sending the message to be more careful when releasing fish. Sandy, no offense taken, the only poor question is the one not asked

But, when I read that sportsman that release fish are causing 100% mortality by simply weighing fish, I have to question where this is coming from. You need to read a little closer, the 100% mortality figure was for large fish, not all fish


Some reasons for my disbelief:

1) The study was not done on SB. You assume that the effect is assumed across the species board. Anyone in science or engineering will tell you...assumptions are the mother of all screw-ups. In fact, SB are a rugged fish, this is no brook trout, this is a sturdy ocean-going fish I am SURE they will respond differently then what ever species they investigated. I have witnessed severe wounds (like seal bites) to these fish that continue to live on and feed, they have a strong will to live. I have my doubts that picking one up for a moment with a bogogrip will kill it as you surmise.Fair enough observation. But the studies were done on a number of fish which may or may not be as tough as the SB. My point was that, 1) someone needs to do the research and 2) there is no reason to assume that big bass, with their distended bellies would be any different

2) The AU study said 100% mortality if you hang them? How do I say this politely.....NO WAY. That alone (the 100% figure) tells me this study was seriously flawed. There is no way a respected technical study could show a 100% mortality unless they wanted to kill them all. Statistically (alone) this is almost impossible. Therefore I view the entire report as poor science and any responsible scientist should discard any and all conclusions they claim. I would look to see if the authors are connected with some other competing product to the bogogrip where they produced this "report" as sort of an infomercial so they might profit somehow... Typically this is the case. The researchers are career employees of the Queensland Government. As far as I know they have no affiliation with any manufacturer of any fishing equipment. As for the 100% figure seeming incredulous, it is! That's why I noted it. Also see my notes above about the 100% being related to the size of the fish, then it begins to make sense.

3) You should have included a bibliography or index of these studies so the reader can flush out the question this study arises? Although I seriously doubt that any reader would chase it down that far. Was there a peer review this work by scientists in the US? I am not sure how they do things in AU but other leading scientists doing work in the same area generally review reports for credibility and repeatability before going public. I did include the URL for the website, you can reach the researches through that website. They have established the website, which is funded by both the Queensland and Central Australian government, as a public service to C&R fishermen. C&R fishing is very popular in Australia.

4) deleted.

5) In summary you state basically, Bogogrips with scales are bad for fish? Why does the IGFA then certify them for use in catch and release? I guess they are out of touch with this study. Have you discussed this with them? Are they aware of this study?
I don't know if they aware of this study and I'm not the least bit sure that they would care if they do know about it. The IGFA has historically required the fish to be killed to qualify for a record. They ceritfy scales to make sure they are accurate, not to make sure that the fish survives the weighing. In fact there are a lot of issues surrounding the C&R of world record fish, but that's a subject for a different thread

6) I noticed that a new potential Word Record Large Mouth Bass
was caught and it has been identified as the SAME FISH as was captured earlier by specific body markings. The fish weighed 21# and caught a couple years ago, WEIGHED and released, caught again and was something like 25# and was weighed and released again. There goes the 100% mortality theory. That fish should be dead.
How many times have you seen FW guys hoist up big bass by the lip flip them around in fits of joy and then and let them go? OK, they are not 50#ers but I think that there would be some mortality that would have been documented by now.
What about the millions of Tarpon and other offshore gamefishover 50# have been lip gaffed hoisted weighed and release. According to your theory, all of the should be dead. I think if this was actually happening, that it would have been identified by now as a real problem. In fact it has not. Oh, what about the fishery officals that shock fish, pull oiut the floaters, weigh and measure them and then put them back...they also seem to live on.
As for the largemouth bass, see my notes relating mortality to size above. As for tarpon, they are rarely lifted totally out of the water. Most times they are hoisted partly out of the water for a picture and then released. Even when they are brought into the boat, by their very shape and size, they are not hoisted completely off the deck. And there is a well documented mortality associated with hoisting tarpon even partially out of the water, which is why the state fo Florida along with the tarpon fishermen's association is activly trying to discourage the practice.

7) Have you ever seen the way comm. fishermen handle fish? Rough doesn’t even begin to describe it. And I am talking about the ones they don’t want and let go. Yes I have and I agree that its more than rough. But they aren't trying to insure the released fish's survival, are they? I thought the whole point of recreational C&R was to make sure that the relesed fish survives, which makes it much different than commercial discards

I think what bothers me the most is why does everyone blame the sportsman all the time who is trying to do the right thing and release a trophy fish while TONS of by-catch fish from draggers float on the surface and hundreds of illegal gill nets barely gets public attention. What am I missing? I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I have nothing against commercial fishermen, except for the bycatch, which is basically only an issue in certain fisheries. My hope in writing the article was to make the recreational C&R fishermen better at keeping fish alive. I also don't have a problem if they want to kill and eat their catch. I wasn't trying to blame anyone for anything in the piece andif you read it that way, you are the first one. Maybe its something that you simply read into it?

Again, I know this seems like a harsh review but I believe this is article while well intentioned is promoting falsehoods about weighing fish.

I respect you as an experienced fishermen but have to disagree with the theory that weighing kills all fish. Doesn't seem harsh at all. I don't expect anyone to take anything I write as gospel. Bit if I at least got you thinking about the possible harmful effects of weighing big fish, I accomplished my goal.

Did that answer everyone questions?

MM,
Thanks for taking the time to digest it all and respond to what seemed like one of my more hostile posts. I know what your intent of the article was and support that aspect of it.

I still don't believe the study and would like to read it for myself sometime.
Do you know where I might find a copy?

A couple more questions. How did they determine if the fish survived? How does one follow a specific fish for any length of time? Archival tag? I don't know how you would determine that a fish dies down the road from being weighed sometime days, weeks, months prior.
Also, how many fish were actually studied?

This article makes me think of you often:uhuh: ...every time I see a fishing show hold up a big fish I think of this report. (It is like a bad song I can't get out of my head) This past weekend I watched Jose' Wejabe (sp?) Spanish fly guy catch a large 30# redfish on light tackle in LA. It was held by the gill in the vertical position several times and then weighed on a bogogrip then "released as these are the spawners"...it seemed to swim away with vigor. Also, I saw a tivoed edition of Walkers Cay Chronicles, there he caught a large tarpon and picked up the entire fish by the jaw via a lip gaff, it had to go 100+. It was also released. Then saw Offshore adventure yank a striped marlin out of the water for a photo op with the West Marine winner of some contest. They man handled that fish and it still seemed to swim away OK.

I still think if this were an issue it would have been discovered long before now.

If you can direct me to a copy of that report I would appreciate it.

Thanks