How much effort do you spend in learning new tactics versus using/learning already successful techniques?

I see alot of money going into the "hot topics" of the month, even specialized rods and reels. How much faith is worth inve$ting in certain tactics over tried and true methods. Its seems to be more striking in the surfcasting segment than with boaters, that in 50 years of modern SB fishing, not much has changed in how or what is used to catch cow bass.

Do you think there will be a new angle to catching cows, that hasnt already been discovered?

You mean like the Saltwater Sportsman article about the guy using the revolutionary massive bunker spoons?

Reinventing the wheel indeed.

Its ok to be a skeptic - just so long as you're not a closed-minded one.

Some of it is fluff to be sure - but not everything. Surfcasters seem to be in two camps: one that follows every trend and another that refuses to budge - regardless of the facts.

What was that Crazy Alberto line?
"Always keep your mind open to new techniques and methods."

Depends on where you go I suppose. If you caught them there with "traditional" methods, why try something different ? Time of year, tide, local baitfish and other factors may influence how certain locations are "fished" but when certain spots are known to produce on traditional methods, thats what I stick with.

I'm pretty much a newbie, so I try not to get caught up in the "hot new" trends and I am concentrating on the tried and true. Gotta learn to walk before you learn to run..etc. There are so many damn "tried and true" methods though that sometimes I think I'll never learn them all and I probably won't. That said, when surfmasters I trust (like you dudes on this site) come out and praise a new method (such as the mightly rigged sluggo), I listen and go home and rig sluggos :tooth:

who told you what I`ve been thinking

Videos are very convincing.

Rigged Sluggos are good example.
A newer product, that uses new tactics, that can use specialized rods that one wouldnt normally use with older techniques. Has had moderate cow success in the surf to date.
VS.
Live eels or rigged eels that have caught countless trophy bass over the decades.
Where/why would you invest time/$ in one over the other?

Rigged Sluggos are good example.
A newer product, that uses new tactics, that can use specialized rods that one wouldnt normally use with older techniques. Has had moderate cow success in the surf to date.
VS.
Live eels or rigged eels that have caught countless trophy bass over the decades.
Where/why would you invest time/$ in one over the other?
I think sluggos are an easy option, live or rigged eels require more time and thought, they are'nt just there in your bag along with plugs. But I don't think sluggos are the same as eels either...

I'm not sure soft plastics are a good example of a hype product. Because it ain't hype. I'd say its more of an evolution.
They weigh at close to 2oz - so a moderate plug rod can throw one -most people have a rod with a 2oz sweet spot.
You don't need any special reel.
They come in a host of different colors and patterns.
They don't stink, or rot, or die. So you can stick them in your pocket and not have to worry about forgetting them and ruining a wading coat.
Their cheap enough to throw in boulder field.
You can present them with a lot of action.
The baitshop does not need to be open and you don't have to worry about looking into a tank full of shoestrings.
In the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, they will outfish almost anything.

And there's times when Bass are on something and will straight up ignore eels or rubbah.

Seen it happen enough times.

My father has a story about fishing bass working flats somewhere and the only thing that actually turned them after throwing the kitchen sink at them was

an Al's goldfish. :D

I'm not sure soft plastics are a good example of a hype product. Because it ain't hype. I'd say its more of an evolution.
They weigh at close to 2oz - so a moderate plug rod can throw one -most people have a rod with a 2oz sweet spot.
You don't need any special reel.
They come in a host of different colors and patterns.
They don't stink, or rot, or die. So you can stick them in your pocket and not have to worry about forgetting them and ruining a wading coat.
Their cheap enough to throw in boulder field.
You can present them with a lot of action.
The baitshop does not need to be open and you don't have to worry about looking into a tank full of shoestrings.
In the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, they will outfish almost anything.
Someone has been drinking McKenna's coolaid.:buds:

Ahh to be a critic - how I envy you....

I'll add my 19 cents.. last spring i fished only wood & i did pretty good.. summer, i used eels did alright.. then in the fall i fished sluggos...man oh man.. i did so well with the sluggo's i will hardly use wood this year. Of course i wont be using sluggo's anymore, but i am sold on the soft plastic way of thinking.

ASk Nib about how i took him to cow country... he was plugging and i was pitching rubber..

Rubber is where its at... be it, sluggo, real-eels, ronz, ultimus.. and yes, even mine :hihi:

I'm not sure soft plastics are a good example of a hype product. Because it ain't hype. I'd say its more of an evolution.
They weigh at close to 2oz - so a moderate plug rod can throw one -most people have a rod with a 2oz sweet spot.
You don't need any special reel.
They come in a host of different colors and patterns.
They don't stink, or rot, or die. So you can stick them in your pocket and not have to worry about forgetting them and ruining a wading coat.
Their cheap enough to throw in boulder field.
You can present them with a lot of action.
The baitshop does not need to be open and you don't have to worry about looking into a tank full of shoestrings.
In the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, they will outfish almost anything.
Thats more about convenience, than anything else Joe. I dont find eels much trouble to keep either.
And other than some "nice bass" I personally havent heard of any genuine cows taken on that style plastics.
Maybe the Storm plastics have really changed how some fishing styles are done in the canal or spring fisheries, but again I havent heard anything regarding size.
What about topwater spook type plugs? Its been popular in the salt for a few years and catches some fish, but how is it comparatively to other large bodied plugs that proved themselves through previous generations.

Eben, if your seriously suggesting rubber eels outfish the real thing, ya need to get yer head outta the oven :wave:

there is no question eels are better, but i just dont feel right killing something that could possibly go on the endangered species list. Also, i dont fish them enough to really feel confident with them. I hate keeping them alive, and i hate it when they die on me. call me a tree hugger i guess.

every fish over 30 lbs i have caught has come off of needlefish... this season, should be interesting to see which item works better for me. I'll share my results, as i dont play the 'bait and switch' with what plug i catch on...

You know who just bought a bunch of tin squid heads off me to use with plastics?
Al Benson.

not the same Benson?
http://www.sportsnight.net/people/r_guillaume.JPG

Al benson, for those who don't know him, is one of the "old guard" from the SoCo area. he had 4 fish over 50 in one night last year. YES!!!! 4 Bass over 50 lbs in one night in May I believe last year

And other than some "nice bass" I personally havent heard of any genuine cows taken on that style plastics.

Didn't Leo win the MV derby last year with a sluggo?

Eeek I spelled Al's last name wrong...It's Bentsen
Sorry Al....
This is from Secrets Of Surfcasting At Night
http://www.surfcasting-rhodeisland.com/StoreImages/secrets_surfcasting_at_night.jpg
Most people consider Al the best rigged eel fisherman to date...

plugs,rubbah and wood work well but live or fresh dead bait will always be best.

Musta been a bad joke.. :topic: I know who Al Bensten is and his accomplishments. I follow his rigged eel article.
But mentioning his name in this thread in regard to rubber eel supplies harkens back to the great "blue needlefish hysteria" of '03, all hype

not the same Benson?
http://www.sportsnight.net/people/r_guillaume.JPG
You're firing on all cylinders Krispy.

Dace and Big Pond shiners worked for me today. Felt nice using the old live well again. :devil: :devil: :devil:

can you post the rest of that article ?

[QUOTE=Nebe]I'll add my 19 cents.. last spring i fished only wood & i did pretty good.. summer, i used eels did alright.. then in the fall i fished sluggos...man oh man.. i did so well with the sluggo's i will....
This is where I get confused because in the next post,"there's no question eels outfish..."it seems contradictory.I'm sure Eben is being honest about his success with rubber.Steve's success has certainly been well documented also and he stands nothing to gain financially so his credibility can't be questioned.I've also seen footage on Joe's site of Steve's cow which he himself equated to some kind of horseshoe in a dark,smelly area.
My concern is,how many people want to cast and retrieve all night with the frequency and speed that has been recommended.Cast,reel fast and twitch,cast again.Steve does this with an 8'6" stick because he is an angler that's been there before and knows he can battle big momma.Most R.I. surfcasters use big,long,beefy sticks to control the cow they dream of being on the other end of their line.After an hour of this method I predict the enthusiasm will diminish.
I don't think this well promoted rubber hype will stand the test of time.I also don't consider it to be a"big fish"bait.It will not replace the allure of swimming a Danny,Needle,darter or certainly the live eel.Close your eyes,reel slow,hold on.Rubber? occasionally.

Strange thing is, for years there were a lot of products floating around that made false claims - that sucked, essentially. Here we got one that works - so rather than accept it, we create new arguments. We look for something wrong.

Here's the thing though - if I wanted to lie to promote and sell something that does work for the sake of my own pocket lining - I could do that very easily. Why would I do that when there are so many things that work? Ripping people off is the domain of the lazy and the unimaginative.

Tradition and change are not at odds with each other. I'll be doing other things that preserve the traditions of the last century, which perpetuate the methods of the past.

Whoah Joe,
nobody came close to claiming you were ripping anyone off or that sluggos are not a fish catching item. Everyone knows SRI has the highest integrity here.
What happens is a snowball effect, a new product catches, someone makes a note worthy catch, people are talking about it, more discussions and before you know it, its like the only thing that catches anymore.
And its not and this thread was not, directed solely at any one product. Merely a question of what the value is in placing faith in new lures over time tested ones. Sluggos/eels, spooks/dannys, storms/jigs etc.

This is a silly/dumb argument.

I'd wager unless there's been a "controlled" study of catch by lure type that most opinions are heavily jaded, relative or otherwise skewed.

Hard money says that Stevie Van Stall and a Sluggo will outfish Spence and an eel 5:1...

Granted, I'd look a hell of a lot better, but does that mean the rubber is the superior lure?

-spence

The Sea Spook, errr. Sea Pup, was a FANTASTIC reincarnation of the old technique :lm:

Rigged Sluggos are good example.
A newer product, that uses new tactics, that can use specialized rods that one wouldnt normally use with older techniques. Has had moderate cow success in the surf to date.
VS.
Live eels or rigged eels that have caught countless trophy bass over the decades.
Where/why would you invest time/$ in one over the other?

I don't know if the Sluggo thing is "hype" but it's for damn sure it's an example of good marketing. I can't tell you how many times people walk into the shop, say they just saw the Steve McKenna OTW, and then rip black sluggos and all the accessories off the walls in the shop. How 'bout Butterfly jigs? People are simply nuts about them.

If I'm asked if I fish them, I tell them my opinion. A couple of expensive hooks, a expensive piece of rubber, time spent rigging and then a bluefish cuts the ass end off of it, right up to the hook. It drives me nuts. They work VERY well yes, for me it's just too frustrating. I'd fish an eel before that. It's cheaper. I don't question plastic's effectiveness, other then the lack of a true cow being caught on them. That will almost certainly change this year simply due to how many people will be fishing them. I also think the love affair will fade a bit if the coast is littered with 2 pound bluefish this year.

And yeah, I also made sure when taking the famous "Iron Mike 60# photo" plastered every where that the needlefish was in plain sight. No one can ever tell me people don't buy into hype or marketing. I'd discuss the bone over orange plugs on everyone's websites these days too, but people might not believe me.

I also think in the case of Sluggos, needlefish, Spooks, and almost all plugs for that matter the guy driving is the most important thing. Some people are just better at making any plug look alive with the way they make it work in their hands. Those who catch large regularly could do it on anything, they just have their preferences. Referencing the Ironman again, we have a 63 on a skin plug, a 60 on a 3.5 ounce blue/white Habs, a 53 (I think) on a blue/white Danny, and another 50 on a blurple Habs. That's definitely spreading the love around, not counting the repeat hits on the Habs. Steve McKenna could have caught that 40 in the OTW vid on anything, imo. He had the idea to be in that place at that time and is simply better then most at making any plug look alive.

I'm a traditionalist for the most part; give me plugs, bucktails, tins, and a few plastics in blue over white, black, white, and bunker (for my Storms) and I'm happy.

As always, in many cases people will catch the most on what they fish the most. I do my damage with Dannys closely followed by needles simply because those are the plugs I prefer to fish.

[QUOTE=Nebe]I'll add my 19 cents.. last spring i fished only wood & i did pretty good.. summer, i used eels did alright.. then in the fall i fished sluggos...man oh man.. i did so well with the sluggo's i will....
This is where I get confused because in the next post,"there's no question eels outfish..."it seems contradictory.I'm sure Eben is being honest about his success with rubber.Steve's success has certainly been well documented also and he stands nothing to gain financially so his credibility can't be questioned.I've also seen footage on Joe's site of Steve's cow which he himself equated to some kind of horseshoe in a dark,smelly area.
My concern is,how many people want to cast and retrieve all night with the frequency and speed that has been recommended.Cast,reel fast and twitch,cast again.Steve does this with an 8'6" stick because he is an angler that's been there before and knows he can battle big momma.Most R.I. surfcasters use big,long,beefy sticks to control the cow they dream of being on the other end of their line.After an hour of this method I predict the enthusiasm will diminish.
I don't think this well promoted rubber hype will stand the test of time.I also don't consider it to be a"big fish"bait.It will not replace the allure of swimming a Danny,Needle,darter or certainly the live eel.Close your eyes,reel slow,hold on.Rubber? occasionally.

to clarify my statements I dont use eels much, so i am not that good at it. I miss alot of hits, and i cast alot of eels off.. In the right hands an eel is deadly, but in my hands an eel is not the best. A sluggo or one of my rigged rubber eels in my hands paired with an allstar 1088 and an Abu Garcia 6500 Chrome rocket or my 1213M with an avet sx is pure chemistry... I wouldnt trade it for anything. I fish to fish sometimes and sometimes its not fish that i am after.

Excellent response, I too fish just to fish.I think a lot of great products have come out this year that will take impressive fish due to a lot of exposure.Needles were also the ticket for me last year on the majority of large.Over 30#last year I caught fish on many weapons; Needles,eels,pogy,jigs.Anything can do the trick when deployed at the right time.

I fish to fish sometimes and sometimes its not fish that i am after.
As my red spanked rear end can attest.

Nebe, you and Dangles really need to hit the East Wall together :hee: :humpty:

I guess to summarize my previous post I'll borrow a quote from Morpheus. "Free your mind".

Do baitfish turn black at night? Or white during the day? Why should your plugs? It's a decent "rule" of plug color choice but I don't live and die by it.

Do what feels right and fish what catches fish for you. Confidence in you're offering to the fish, new or old, is very important.

multiple documented 40# fish last year and who knows how many 30s....yeah slug-gos are all hype

As my red spanked rear end can attest. :humpty:
Trollin for colon:doh:

As has been said here throughout ~~~~~~~~~~



If you are a competent fisher and get out frequently and be where the fish are then there are many many baits and lures that will catch for you.


Biggest secret is: Go Fishing

No one can ever tell me people don't buy into hype or marketing. I'd discuss the bone over orange plugs on everyone's websites these days too, but people might not believe me..
What is the deal on that color suddenly showing up all over the place? Did a paint company run a sale on bone and orange paints?????

Don't own any.not really a fan of orange bottom lures.Nor am I a fan of those spook type things.I made a livin on rubber on a jig head till Storm came out with shads in a bag.I was so pissed it took me 2 yrs to buy a pack an i still barely thro em.My style was cut from some old time NJ surfmen.I have seen many new ways to skin a cat in my travels.I take bits an pieces from all of it in effort of being the most complete surfcaster I can.My mind is always open for new Idea's. I may be slower than most to jump on the bandwagon thou.

What is the deal on that color suddenly showing up all over the place? Did a paint company run a sale on bone and orange paints?????

I dreamed it up one afternoon when we were thinking of custom colors for a Super Strike order.

The bone Jumpin Minnow is a deadly plug and at the time we were having great success on the Mag Darter with the orange belly on charters. So bone over orange was reborn. I had it painted by a few other builders and now it's everywhere...

Although it works well it was only an experiment at the time. It was weird to watch it spread online though.

Fad?
Not a fad?

http://www.ifeelhappy.com/media/rubbah.jpg

If it works I'll keep usin it.

Hard money says that Stevie Van Stall and a Sluggo will outfish Spence and an eel 5:1...

And once upon a time the J Plugs were the cow killers off the islands but those were just a "fad".

Got one of these to try from shore when the squid is about. Its kind of heavy at 4 oz. but I`ll rip twitch it if its calm or throw it in strong current
and see what happens. Its a bad pic but the cedar part is bluple and the rubber black purple silver with white specs. Its about 9 inches long.

This is a silly/dumb argument.

I'd wager unless there's been a "controlled" study of catch by lure type that most opinions are heavily jaded, relative or otherwise skewed.

Hard money says that Stevie Van Stall and a Sluggo will outfish Spence and an eel 5:1...

Granted, I'd look a hell of a lot better, but does that mean the rubber is the superior lure?

-spence
No one will ever look better than "Sir Cedric Cesspool" alias Spence.
Tell 'bout the night you went home cause your hat didn't match your shirt.

No one will ever look better than "Sir Cedric Cesspool" alias Spence.
Tell 'bout the night you went home cause your hat didn't match your shirt.


Thats not true is it? Whats he look like? I`ve seen a guy in a Basil Rathbone green tweed and red bowtie and English hippers last year in Soco.Tall blonde about 230# I`m guessing. His fully attired man servant was drying off his plug after every cast with a chamois.

trust me on this one. You have no idea how proper Mr. Spencer is when it comes to fishing attire. Blue hat to match his AquaSkinz top....yep

Hard money says that Stevie Van Stall and a Sluggo will outfish Spence and an eel 5:1...


-spence
Maybe Spence, but I've seen the #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^& "smoke" Little Stevie when the #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^& is fishin' eels

Musta been a bad joke.. :topic: I know who Al Bensten is and his accomplishments. I follow his rigged eel article.
But mentioning his name in this thread in regard to rubber eel supplies harkens back to the great "blue needlefish hysteria" of '03, all hype

a quote from AL on another site

"To me the best and most inovative lure during the past 50 years was Mickey Chirenza Tri-in eel. It is a tube lure and those that used it hammered big bass both day and night. What made it unique was the shape of the head which gave it it's name tri-fin and its action.

This lure came in different sizes and they all worked. It came along when the Alou plastic eel did and it outfished it. But it never got the noterity that the Alou eel did.

I beleive it's being resurrected by a company in R.I."

Interesting thread, seems like there is some real passion out there that I can’t really relate to. I had a good idea for an article for one of the mags and since I will never get around to write it, I’ll throw out so maybe someone will run with it. The gist of the article is “When are saltwater striper fisherman going to catch up with freshwater largemouth fisherman?”
Look at the evolution of the tactics – Bait – wood lures – jigs – rubber . Largemouth fisherman have been using rubber for YEARS. In my experience the two best lures for BIG largemouths are jigs and rubber worms.
To Joe’s point, I think that rubber (eben’s eel and Slugs) are just a natural evolution. I don’t think these appeal to bass as eel, but just as slimy, worm/eel things that will be an easy meal.
My Dad, who targeted big bass, swore by mister twister sassy shads. The Storm concept is not new, just a little fancier.
I like fishing with eels and believe live bait is best, but if I want to work a lot of area quickly, lures work best for me and the rubber is a great compromise. Also, the convenience is a major factor.
I find working eels, needlefish or plugs very slowly for hours is more tiring that working a sluggo quickly.

Interesting thread, seems like there is some real passion out there that I can’t really relate to. I had a good idea for an article for one of the mags and since I will never get around to write it, I’ll throw out so maybe someone will run with it. The gist of the article is “When are saltwater striper fisherman going to catch up with freshwater largemouth fisherman?”
Look at the evolution of the tactics – Bait – wood lures – jigs – rubber . Largemouth fisherman have been using rubber for YEARS. In my experience the two best lures for BIG largemouths are jigs and rubber worms.
To Joe’s point, I think that rubber (eben’s eel and Slugs) are just a natural evolution. I don’t think these appeal to bass as eel, but just as slimy, worm/eel things that will be an easy meal.
My Dad, who targeted big bass, swore by mister twister sassy shads. The Storm concept is not new, just a little fancier.
I like fishing with eels and believe live bait is best, but if I want to work a lot of area quickly, lures work best for me and the rubber is a great compromise. Also, the convenience is a major factor.
I find working eels, needlefish or plugs very slowly for hours is more tiring that working a sluggo quickly.

Sort of a natural evolution. It was kick started by an extensive (and maybe not even intentional) advertising campaign, imo. Sluggos in saltwater are far from new. Many guys used them and lost interest years ago. Rigging so as to get a different presentation and appear more eel like is the only really "new" concept.

If you walked into the SWE 5 or more years ago back when it was considered just a fly shop there was a big selection Sluggos, complete with insert weights.

I think the Sluggo's popularity will wane, just like fly fishing did, just like wood is now. The market will get saturated, which has already begun, the novelty will wear off, the best products will survive, and the rage will be over.

I think the Sluggo's popularity will wane, just like fly fishing did, just like wood is now. The market will get saturated, which has already begun, the novelty will wear off, the best products will survive, and the rage will be over.

Now its all about Bunker Spoons after one article in a certain magazine.

:rotf2: