:btu: Here is what I expect to find today....the "Day Without Immigrants" as they perform a work stoppage.

1. I expect to be able to go to Dunkin Donuts, order a cup of coffee from someone who speaks english and my order is not screwed up due to communication problems.

2. I expect to be able to fill my gas tank up without having to have an interpreter present.

3. I will be able to go to a convenience store and maybe get a few items without feeling as though I am in a foreign country due to the fact that the cashier speaks not a word of english.

:laughs:

I wonder if all the immigrants will show up at the plant today. I like having them around, where else can you go from America to Cambodia by foot?

not everyone can avoid to boycott America by not working......

but if all that do....stick to their word about not spending any money

today it'll be interesting to see what that does to the price of gas

and or the stock market.

Most of the DD I go to that have Brazillians, I look forward to seeing some of those hotties. I know the language barrier sucks, but sometimes it,s nice not to have to talk to a woman. :hihi:

It's time to lock the borders down that 4 sure.

No Illegal aliens? Aye Carumba!

We should have a Day Without Americans...wonder how that would go..:wavey:

My grandfather was an immigrant for Nova Scotia. He came down during WW2 to work at the Boston Shipyard. Became a boilermaker and rose to shop steward. He was a great guy and strong as an ox. I thank God he had the guts to leave his family and everything he had known and grew up with to immigrate to the USA. Each one of us had that one person way back that wanted a better life and was fearless enought to come to the USA. Many could not speak English or could understand how to function in this land, but they came anyway. As I sit here at my desk in my house and consider the life I have I am very grateful.

I believe that this country is the best in the world and if other immigrants want to come here we should let them. We should put up with the hassles of Jose or Pattal at the gas station or donut shop and just smile and welcome them to the club.:cheers:

Duke...its not that we don't want immigrants to come here.....its that when they do, before even becoming citizens of this country, they get more benefits from our government than we do for cryin' out loud....many do not ever try to become citizens and they just take advantage of our system, they never attempt to learn the language, they work under the table never paying taxes.....shall I go on??? We all know where we came from Duke......but it is a different world today than all those years ago when immigrants came by boat and more often than not went through Ellis Island and were processed before entering the country.....now they just float over on a banana crate, stow away on a barge, swim or stroll over a dark border or are smuggled over in trucks!!!!! That is the problem Duke....nobody is criticizing your Grandfather.....open your mind a bit beyond your small world.:doh:

Also Duke...Jose' and Patal need to learn the friggin language because I will be Gawd Damned if I am going to learn theirs!!!! Already peeves me that my kids are "REQUIRED" to learn spanish in school!!!!!:realmad:

just remember.. for every lazy imigrant that pisses you off for giving you bad service at a place like D&D's, there are dozens of very hard working imigrants working quietly in non-public places that you will never see, doing what they do to raise your quality of life.

No imigrants means a large void in the work force...especially a large void in many jobs that most 'entitled' americans wouldnt dream of doing.

Yeah....and they get paid plenty under the table for the privilage! Plus government aid.

Eben...its not the fact that there are immigrants here......that is not the issue....the issue is the illegal ones who seek to have the government grant them citizenship without them having to go through the same system many others do to become citizens. Is this the same Eben that hates Bush?:uhoh:

well I don't want to hurt anyones feeling, But If there here legal, I have no problem!!

But 11 million that are not should be round up tattooed and sent packing!!

They come here, they get a job, and in a lot of cases they live with someone on the welfare system and they lie get medical, money, housing, and now they are changing the National Anthem !

Now we are offering them to work and give them the right to stay here if they follow the rules, What more do these greedy people want!

Hang Them all for treason!!

There I said it!

MacoJoe for President!!!:claps: :bgi:

What more do these greedy people want!
There are many viewpoints that can be presented to articulate the nature of the problem...but I don't think you'll find the word "greed" in anything of credibility.

:think:

-spence

I had a coversation with someone the other day......these illegal immigrants will not be beating down the doors to fight for this country should the need ever arise!!!! They will lay beneath the radar, let others fight and sacrifice and bleed and die and suck this governments system for all they can get without so much as a thought to where it all comes from!!! The conversation made sense to me!!! These folks who are illegal immigrants should in no way, shape or form recieve benefits, subsidies, financial or medical assistance from this government before they become citizens of this country!! I see where my tax dollars are going and it steams my a$$ everytime I think about it!!!:realmad:

Liberals!:wall:

Deport Illegal Aliens........... period.. Just my opinion, and no, I won't change it......

I agree that they should be sent packing, our government has a zero tollerance policy for it citizens, remember justice it blind. to let these people walk free is a smack in the face to every American citizen. We would not have to worry about the void in the work force if this problem was taken care of to begin with. We could easily fill the void with all the damn minimum security prisoners in the country. Did you guys know that the ACI in RHode Island pays it's prisioners 2 dollars a day to maintain the stat highways? This is a fact. So in reality, we are already having to pay for these prisoners to be locked up, so why not make them all work? The business owners would even be able to pay the same poor wages they pay illegals, and the states could take that money, give the prisioner thier 2 bucks a day and the rest would go to opaying for thier stay in prison. Remember I am talking about minimum security prisoners, most of these men and women are everyday citizens like us who just did somthing stupid.

ScottC for VP!:)

these illegal immigrants will not be beating down the doors to fight for this country should the need ever arise!!!! They will lay beneath the radar, let others fight and sacrifice and bleed and die and suck this governments system for all they can get without so much as a thought to where it all comes from!!!
This is just nonsense talking...

1) The US Military doesn't allow illegals to enlist
2) While the US Military does allow legal non-citizens to enlist, it doesn't allow them to become commissioned or warrant officers.

Bigfish, did you realize that illegal workers in this country currently contribute 50 Billion yearly in taxes that they don't see a penny of?

There is a tremendous contribution that illegal workers make to this country that we take for granted. In effect they are subsidizing a lot of your quality of life...what they are asking for is a little respect and recognition of this fact.

Liberals are not the problem, it's a population that doesn't want to own up to reality.

-spence

Spence, the contribute 50 million right? do you know that when they use the false SS number they also claim as many dependants as possible so they end up paying as little as possilbe? That 50 million should be about 120 million if they were legitemate citizens. All those young hard working single illegals are claiming they have 5 kids under a false SS number, a single Citizen with no children pays more taxes than anyone in the country.

And the Military doesn't let them fight.....because they are criminals! See, this seems to be a point that many forget. I want to be able to break a few laws and not be arrested too, but that will never happen, I have seen hard working men getting arrested for urinating in public! It happens every year in newport ri, these are tourists who contribute not one huge amounts of taxes, but the fuel the tourism economy as well, but there they are, getting arrested, and gettign their names in the paper, for nothing more than taking a piss behind a dumpster.

Y

Well spence, set up a small city, and support them all, and see how far you get!!~

Don't forget that you get all the Felons that are running from Justice and then commit the same here, and have no worry cause are laws are softer then there's.

And then all there babies and there babies ect ect... How about all the people that saved and waited to do it the right way?? Should they be bi-passed cause some cheat to get here??

How did you like it when you were in line at a sporting event for 2 hours to get in and then a bunch cut the line, was it right?

Think about all the things that these people do, and all the people waiting to do it the right way

Spence, the contribute 50 million right?
No, Billion...with a B.

I'm not saying that crossing the border should be legal...

But some of you are trying to make a case that illegal immigrants simply suck off the system and make no contribution.

Which isn't even open for debate...it's just not true. And instead of dealing with the real issues - you're ignoring reality.

There are millions of illegals in this country that contribute to our GDP and quality of life, and the vast majority of them aren't going anywhere...

It is what it is.

So how are you going to deal with it?

-spence

"Nonsense Talking"? Of course I know the government does not allow illegal immigrants to enlist....that is exactly the point I was making Spence......re-read my post and maybe you will understand it! The illegal immigrants are benifiting from this country and they do not contribute anything in return. They make beds in hotel rooms and pick fruit and you think that enhances the quality of my life??? WRONG!!!! The hardworking american citizens enhance the quality of my life.....the soldiers who are sacrificing and have sacrificed enhance the quality of my life!!

The illegal immigrants are benifiting from this country and they do not contribute anything in return.
Yes, this is where your perception doesn't align with reality.

-spence

The illegal immigrants do not suck off the system??? Its not true??? Must be a nice world you live in Spence....what mind altering chemical can get me where you live?:smash:

No, Billion...with a B.

I'm not saying that crossing the border should be legal...

But some of you are trying to make a case that illegal immigrants simply suck off the system and make no contribution.

Which isn't even open for debate...it's just not true. And instead of dealing with the real issues - you're ignoring reality.

There are millions of illegals in this country that contribute to our GDP and quality of life, and the vast majority of them aren't going anywhere...

It is what it is.

So how are you going to deal with it?

-spence

Ok so say 80 Billion they are stealing from this country. You sound like my wife. She says " Hey Scott, I just saved 200 dollars shopping today!" and I say sure, you had to SPEND 800 to do so hahahah.:wall:

And I told you exactly how to deal with it, replace them with low risk criminals period end of story. Round them all up and deport them. the first order of business form our new founded prison work force should be to build a 25 foot wall accross the entire border. China did it before we has back hoes, so I think we could handle it.

BigFish -

I'm saying your notion that illegals don't also contribute is false, not that they don't draw from the system. This shouldn't be that difficult a concept to process...

Scott -

All politics aside, deporting every illegal is just technically not possible. And your calculations are a bit wacky as well. Replacing migrant labor with a domestic workforce would have a huge inflation effect on most consumable goods.

-spence

BigFish -

I'm saying your notion that illegals don't also contribute is false, not that they don't draw from the system. This shouldn't be that difficult a concept to process...

Scott -

All politics aside, that's just technically not possible.

-spence

HAHAHA, everything I said is easily done, it is not technically impossible, it is POLITICALLY impossible, you have it backwards. We need people is politics who are not afraid to do what is unpopular, and we need to make lobyist illegal.

Immigrants are not "bad" people. We are all descendents of immigrants unless you have Native American blood running through your veins, which I am blessed to have some running through mine. Talk about people who got screwed and still are. Anyway, my ancestors spoke only Polish/Russian/Lithuanian and French when they landed here. ( My Great x 6 Grandfather was A French Baron who escaped the Guilotine and came here and married a full blooded MicMac indian woman). Some of your might have been English or Irish or Scottish and knew English already (Irish and Scottish in a modified form), thats great.

Immigrants and the cultural mix is what made this country great. Otherwise we would be like a bunch of inbred dogs. Look at what happened to Irish Setters. The problem we have is that we need to set up better parameters for entrance into, stayiing in and becoming a citizen of, this country. It's too easy right now to enter from Mexico and latin America. My Grand father emigrated here at 13 speaking only Polish and Russian. He had to endure Ellis Island. He taught himself english and became a citizen. That's all these people need to do, especially in the dangerous age we live in.

Most of them work hard, very hard. Do we need the gangs like ms13 and such and the ones who choose to belong to them? No. But most of the Latino community would agree with that as well. All we ask is that they adopt a simple set of rules, they do not have to abandon thier culture or language but they do have to adopt ours and the principals we live by as Americans. Italians have Columbus Day, Irish have St. Patricks Day and so on, celebrating thier culture and it's great. The Latino community can too but we need rules and if they choose to stay here then take the final step and become a Latino-American. I think the fine proposed is the right step. It will be the impetus for them to finally make the decision to go or stay. They are more than welcome to stay.

Lastly the Spanish version of the National Anthem is not correct. We would never do that to the Mexican Anthem, the Brazilian anthem and so on. Although, as a child going to a Parochial school, we were forced by the Sister's of Saint Anne, a Canadian order of Nuns, to sing the Au Canada first each morning before the Star Spangled Banner and no one complained, Never sat right with me or anyone I went to school with but our parents, my mother especially, who was french Canadian, loved it. It was just wrong and so is a spanish Star Spangled Banner with wording changed.

That's my two cents on this issue.

agreed Flap... however, my grandparents came in with papers.. as I am sure yours did... and they did not demand that people spoke their langauge, they adapted english, (not perfect, but worked on it as a lifelong chore, no prouder day for them, when the became "U.S. Citizens :) ), and assimilated to this country...

I know several "legal" aliens.. all decent hardworking folk, who work hard to speak english, and live by the book.. they are peer pressured by their community tho, to support the illegals, kind of sad, in a way, that has to happen.. "Illegal's Rights"... :huh: kind of an oxymoron, I'd say....

"Jose, Can you see?"... yeah, leave the anthem alone, Please.

Wow we have a lot of characters on this board and I am one of them. Bigfish I know you were not insulting my grand dad I was just making a point that spainish and indians speaking folks are here for the same reason your and my ancestors came. For a better life. I am sure there are some, a small percentage that play the system as do plenty of Americans, but I am also certain that many come here for a fresh start in a free country. I always try to keep that in mind when I deal with these folks. So have a nice day and keep on spreading the love.:uhuh:

No one cares about "legal" imigrants in this country. We encourage imagration when you do it the "legal" way. What Flaptail and many others like to ignore is the whole Legal vs. Illegal issue. Why are you guys trying to lump "illegal" imigrants in the same breathe as "legals"? There is a big differance guys. You come here the right way like my ancestors did or you dont come here at all. If you dont want to obey the laws of the US get the hell out. Do it right or stay the hell away.

I'm sick of people making excuses for the illegals and accepting thier behavior. These people are a slap in the face to the people who come to this country right way. Why the hell you people dont get that is beyond me. But then again you guys prob want open borders so everyone can flock to this country without the US doing any backround checks on these people or whatnot.

You come here legaly or you dont come here at all!

agreed Flap... however, my grandparents came in with papers.. as I am sure yours did... and they did not demand that people spoke their langauge, they adapted english, (not perfect, but worked on it as a lifelong chore, no prouder day for them, when the became "U.S. Citizens :) ), and assimilated to this country...

I know several "legal" aliens.. all decent hardworking folk, who work hard to speak english, and live by the book.. they are peer pressured by their community tho, to support the illegals, kind of sad, in a way, that has to happen.. "Illegal's Rights"... :huh: kind of an oxymoron, I'd say....

"Jose, Can you see?"... yeah, leave the anthem alone, Please.

Bingo! Illegals have ZERO rights! They gave up thier rights when they decided to say F the system and sneek over the order ILLEGALLY. And you and me are paying for this illegal behavior.....:doh: Let them all stay home from work today, lets show them this country can run just fine without the illegals.

HAHAHA, everything I said is easily done, it is not technically impossible, it is POLITICALLY impossible, you have it backwards.
Horse hockey.

Aside from the logistical issues of deporting 11 million people, you have to replace their jobs with legal workers who are protected by different state and federal laws.

The impact to our economy would be devistating and impossible to counter...Unless you have a 100 year plan...

-spence

Hey read the paper please, A whole bunch of immigrants just landed at the airport. They are called alot of things , but most of all Dam Yankee's.... Kick them bastages out of town quick!:hidin:
VB

:doh:

Lastly the Spanish version of the National Anthem is not correct.
I'm not sure what all the flap is over this Spanish version of our National Anthem, aside from zenophobia...

Jimi Hendrix ticked a lot of people off with his version, but guess what? It was simply Jimi expressing his love for America in his own way...it was his version...

If a hispanic person wants to express their feelings for America in Spanish I don't see what the problem is...it doesn't mean it has to be played at baseball games!

-spence

No one cares about "legal" imigrants in this country. We encourage imagration when you do it the "legal" way. What Flaptail and many others like to ignore is the whole Legal vs. Illegal issue. Why are you guys trying to lump "illegal" imigrants in the same breathe as "legals"? There is a big differance guys. You come here the right way like my ancestors did or you dont come here at all. If you dont want to obey the laws of the US get the hell out. Do it right or stay the hell away.

I'm sick of people making excuses for the illegals and accepting thier behavior. These people are a slap in the face to the people who come to this country right way. Why the hell you people dont get that is beyond me. But then again you guys prob want open borders so everyone can flock to this country without the US doing any backround checks on these people or whatnot.

You come here legaly or you dont come here at all!
Did you read the post coprrectly? I am not in favor of illegal immigration.

Horse hockey.

Aside from the logistical issues of deporting 11 million people, you have to replace their jobs with legal workers who are protected by different state and federal laws.

The impact to our economy would be devistating and impossible to counter...Unless you have a 100 year plan...

-spence


It would not be devestating at all, and I already handed you a place to get these workers, and do not have to be protected by anything, you do know minimum wage is more than 2 bucks a day right? The ACI workers get paid less than illegals already, and there is absolutely no shortage of inmates in the USA. Sure it would be hard to deport 11 million people, but if we do not, then we might as well burn our constitution and bill of rights as they mean nothing. We were able to invade and occupy two countrys in less than 2 years, and they had weapons! You mean to tell me our armed forces could not make a huge dent in the illegal alien problem in our own country? You gravely underestimate the power we wield.

Duke...definitely was not insulting your Grand-Dad......he came the right way and I applaud him for, like you said, his bravery to make such a move.:claps:

Did you read the post coprrectly? I am not in favor of illegal immigration.

Yeah i just re-read your post. I see what your saying. I think we're accually on the same page in many ways.

Especially the Spanish National Anthem. Thats just lame, they won't get any bonus points from Americans on that one. If anything it'll hurt thier cause more.

It would not be devestating at all, and I already handed you a place to get these workers, and do not have to be protected by anything, you do know minimum wage is more than 2 bucks a day right? The ACI workers get paid less than illegals already, and there is absolutely no shortage of inmates in the USA. Sure it would be hard to deport 11 million people, but if we do not, then we might as well burn our constitution and bill of rights as they mean nothing. We were able to invade and occupy two countrys in less than 2 years, and they had weapons! You mean to tell me our armed forces could not make a huge dent in the illegal alien problem in our own country? You gravely underestimate the power we wield.
I love it, your reference for feesability are two military actions where the desired outcome ended up killing tens of thousands of innocent people :uhuh:

And according to the DOJ there are only about 2.1 million inmates, not quite the numbers necessary for your plan. Given you probably don't want the harder criminals out in the fields, the pool is quite a bit smaller than that.

Besides, what would happen if crime rates fell! Would we have to enact tougher laws to ensure the prison population was able to supply the needed people-power to keep the produce flowing :)

-spence

This issue is very easy.

No one is against LEGAL immigration. That is what this country is about.

It is the immigrants who are here ILLEGALLY who want to side step the process that is the problem.

If I were an immigrant going through the process legally I'd be pissed.

Heard an immigrant on the radio this morning going thru the process legally was asked if he'd go to war for the country. He said yes but he wasn't a citizen. I THINK WHAT ALLOT OF PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND IS YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE A CITIZEN TO BE IN THE ARMY, NAVY, AIR FORCE, MARINES OR COAST GAURD. but you do have to be a legal. That is a great loophole to becoming a citizen is join the military for a number of years, you'll get your citizenship through them.

I love it, your reference for feesability are two military actions where the desired outcome ended up killing tens of thousands of innocent people :uhuh:

And according to the DOJ there are only about 2.1 million inmates, not quite the numbers necessary for your plan. Given you probably don't want the harder criminals out in the fields, the pool is quite a bit smaller than that.

Besides, what would happen if crime rates fell! Would we have to enact tougher laws to ensure the prison population was able to supply the needed people-power to keep the produce flowing :)

-spence
People died because they were fighting invaders of their country, we will not be fighting on a battle field.

even if we don;t have the 11 million to directly replace the illegalls, atleast we have a starting point to deal with a two front problem. gettting rid of illegals, and helping ease the strain Prisioners put on us. And by the time the crime rate falls, all those illegals should be here legally :D And don't forget, out of those 11 millin illegas, how many are working adn how many are thier childeren? It is safe to say that is we booted 11 million illegals, there will not be 11 million jobs to fill, and if there is, then hey, looks like we will ave a reason to get them here quicker legally, so in the end everyone wins.

Also, atleast I am trying to come up with a solution, not just lying down and giving up. Ths country was built on the notion that anything is possible if you work hard enough.

Spence,

Where are you getting your numbers for the monies that illegals put into US? All kidding/bitching aside, I truly would like to read this.

One irrefutable fact is that all border states are having huge financial problems due in large part (not 100%) in the drain illegal immigrants put on the local economy. Here is some information from a non-partisan (have not vetted them on this count) group:

QUOTE
The small picture, too, is a concern, said Mark Krikorian, executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies. Although he concedes that definite benefits for some specific sectors of the economy come from the illegal workforce, the overall costs to American citizens outweighs the benefits of illegal immigration.

"There's no question that illegal immigration, that unskilled immigration of all kinds, is a losing proposition," Krikorian said.

Krikorian's group just released a study this week that says illegal immigration is most harming the unskilled sector of the labor force. Krikorian said it shows current U.S. immigration policy isn't looking out for its own citizens.

A study of Census Bureau data revealed that while U.S. unemployment is under 5 percent, unemployment among high school dropouts is 14 percent and among those with only a high school education is about 7 percent, he said.

Krikorian said that shows that despite the claims otherwise, for non-immigrants "there isn't full employment in the low-skilled labor market."

Krikorian said that until immigration policy changes, the problem boils down to a simple point — low-wage citizen workers are being crowded out of low-pay jobs by illegal immigrants.
END QUOTE

tim

We are all immigrants.....:rollem:

It's a number I've seen used several times...although I'm sure it's a pro-immigration source...I've also read that the Social Security Administration alone attributes about 7 Billion in taxes to illegal or undocumented people.

I'd completely agree that some communities shoulder much more of the burden than others...

Also, I'm not arguing that illegal immigration is a good thing or that there's parity between give and take...

Rather, that there is a tremendous input into our economy by illegal workers, and they they aren't going anywhere soon. Any feesable long-term solution must take these factors into account.

-spence

It's a number I've seen used several times...although I'm sure it's a pro-immigration source...I've also read that the Social Security Administration alone attributes about 7 Billion in taxes to illegal or undocumented people.

I'd completely agree that some communities shoulder much more of the burden than others...

Also, I'm not arguing that illegal immigration is a good thing or that there's parity between give and take...

Rather, that there is a tremendous input into our economy by illegal workers, and they they aren't going anywhere soon. Any feesable long-term solution must take these factors into account.

-spence

Yeah unfortunatly anything short of extremly drastic measures will not help at all. We have let it get too far out of hand.

Yeah unfortunatly anything short of extremly drastic measures will not help at all. We have let it get too far out of hand.
Drastic measures will just upset the apple cart...there's an economic interest here as well.

The current situation has "evolved" into something quite gray. We need to segment the problems and attack them individually.

For instance, an open border and business desiring the cheap labor are certainly related...but they don't necessarily have the same solution.

-spence

This guy seems to be taking matters in his own hands
http://www.filecabi.net/video/mexicans.html

We are all immigrants.....:rollem:

You and I are LEGAL, our familys came to this country by following the rules and doing it through the legal proccess. Can't say the same thing about the mexicans hopping the fences now can we? This is NOT about LEGAL imigrants!! this is about ILLEGAL imigrants who dont follow the law of the US. Why is this so hard for people to understand??? :hs: Its so simple yet folks make it so freakin complicated. Or they are PC people who are afraid they might offend someone. I think that is the most likely scenerio.

I heard Rush Limbaugh wants to round up all the illegal aliens, and make gasoline additives out of them. :bl:

this is about ILLEGAL imigrants who dont follow the law of the US.
Skippy, do you speed?

-spence

You and I are LEGAL, our familys came to this country by following the rules and doing it through the legal proccess. Can't say the same thing about the mexicans hopping the fences now can we? This is NOT about LEGAL imigrants!! this is about ILLEGAL imigrants who dont follow the law of the US. Why is this so hard for people to understand??? :hs: Its so simple yet folks make it so freakin complicated. Or they are PC people who are afraid they might offend someone. I think that is the most likely scenerio.


Quoted for absolute truth. All my ancestors were imigrants as well, my grandparents were not born here, but they did it the right way, and that is all we are asking, do it right so you can fit properly into our structured system

:lurk: :lurk: :lurk: :lurk:

Skippy, do you speed?

-spence

The times i have i've gotten pulled over and ticketed, as i should've becuase i broke the law. But in your world you give the Illegals a pass and dont care if they break law, no punishment no nothing. if you break the law ,no matter how severe or minor, we have penalties for the law breaking. It keeps order in the country. But i guess for some reason ILLEGALS get a free pass on this law right? Please tell me why its ok for them to break and ignore OUR laws and we should reward thier law breaking actions? becuase this is what we are doing, rewarding criminal behavior.

Quoted for absolute truth. All my ancestors were imigrants as well, my grandparents were not born here, but they did it the right way, and that is all we are asking, do it right so you can fit properly into our structured system

To bad some people fail to understand this simple logic. Do it the right way and America welcomes them with open arms. Do it illiegally and we have no respect for you, becuase they have no respect for America by breaking our laws and cutting in front of the line of people who are going through the LEGAL proccess to come to America.

Well, illegal immigration is considered a "civil" offense...sort of like speeding...

Just wanted to lump you all in the same bucket :cputin: :btu:

-spence

To bad some people fail to understand this simple logic. Do it the right way and America welcomes them with open arms. Do it illiegally and we have no respect for you, becuase they have no respect for America by breaking our laws and cutting in front of the line of people who are going through the LEGAL proccess to come to America.

I often wonder how many of our ancestors DID get in here legally? I dont know the answer to that, and I'm calling anyone here out, I just take it for face value that my relatives got here legally, but who knows? The french canadian side of my family dates back to the 1700's? were they legal or did they just show up?

Does everyone KNOW for FACT that their ancestors got here on the up and up?

You and I are LEGAL, our familys came to this country by following the rules and doing it through the legal proccess. Can't say the same thing about the mexicans hopping the fences now can we? This is NOT about LEGAL imigrants!! this is about ILLEGAL imigrants who dont follow the law of the US. Why is this so hard for people to understand??? :hs: Its so simple yet folks make it so freakin complicated. Or they are PC people who are afraid they might offend someone. I think that is the most likely scenerio.

No..... we just slaughtered and infected with diseases the people who lived here for thousands and thousands of years before WE DISCOVERED AMERICA.

Being a member of the Cherokee Tribe I can relate to that remark :)

-spence

I didn't read all of the thread, but one part I did read hit a nerve with me. Someone stated that illegals do not suck the system dry and contribute over 80 billion dollars to our system. Let me enlighten the healthcare aspect of this. I work in a huge hospital, the majority of trauma patients due to a fall from a rooftop, ladder, etc. are day laborers. These people incur huge medical bills, staggering to say the least. I now work in the outpatient orthopedic facility for the same hospital, and the amount of patients that are seen here is insane, most of them follow-up to those traumatic falls mentioned. Who foots the bill for these people? You and me, our medical insurance. This is one hospital of the thousands around the country where I am sure the same occurs on a daily basis. Another observation is the "free clinic" that is offered to those without insurance a few times per month where I work. Guess what the majority of the patients are?
you guessed it. Not a word of english, not a thank you, not a smile.
The vast majority of these people want everything without contributing anything.
These patients make things very difficult for all involved. The MD getting called in to screw this guys leg together. The support staff that needs to be called in to help the MD. The hospital workers that need to take extra time to care for these people due to the language barrier. The list goes on and on. I am not saying that these people should not be cared for, I am a compassionate human being, and want no one to suffer, but the big picture is the fact that they are here, and get sick and hurt, and we care for them in these situations, losing time and money in the process. If they weren't here, it wouldn't be a problem.

I didn't read all of the thread, but one part I did read hit a nerve with me. Someone stated that illegals do not suck the system dry and contribute over 80 billion dollars to our system.
I don't think anybody has stated either...

-spence

You did Spence.:uhuh:

And after re-reading that post it also states that we are ignoring reality?

as a red blooded mashpee wampanog injin. ????....all of you go back where you came from ...your all a bunch of imigrants....ug....

No..... we just slaughtered and infected with diseases the people who lived here for thousands and thousands of years before WE DISCOVERED AMERICA.


True, But the Nature of Mankind was always "Devide and Conquer". Which pretty much goes back to the cave people days.:usd:

I am right where I came from.:bl:

No I didn't...

I've affirmed that illegals do suck on the system, and it's while it's worse in some areas than others... it's certianly not s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g "the system dry".

The stat I threw out was 50, not 80. And even that figure is relative...the poing being that there is a tremendous contribution that's not being considered in your reasoning...

Your facts are not so straight :lasso:

-spence

Your first post on page 3 says it quite plainly....or maybe I just can't read? 50...80...relative to what???....Don't throw numbers around when you don't have them nailed down....if you don't have the facts then don't post the info!:jump1:

You throw out "ballpark" numbers and our facts are not straight???? Come on Spence.....wish you had the ability to correst your comments right about now?

No Worries Skittah.... redman sold the whiteman Manhattan for 26 bucks and some beads, and been getting shafted for years, yes... but...... gonna win the whole thing back a thousand fold at the casinos... Ka-Ching .... stiffy... you say that till ya get yer casino... then it'll be come on down suckah :D...

all my relatives came thru Eliis Island, early 1900's... but I get grouped into the blame for Indians troubles and Slaves troubles.. nice deal.. my ancestors was endutured servants all over Europe.. My Grandfather had to do his tour of duty for the army, plus all of his father's boss's kids time.. then work off his dad's debt to the landowner.. then he hightailed it for USA, figgered it had to be better, never looked back...

jnski.. good points... and health care ins. is going up quicker than gasoline... cause of the insured, picking up the tab for the uninsured...

I don't think you can read...you're the one who said

The illegal immigrants are benifiting from this country and they do not contribute anything in return.

Which is simply absurd...

Regarding tax contributions. I freely admit my statement was based on potentially pro-immigration comments I heard, and as such I don't know how it was computed...

But that doesn't diminish its relative merrit, as I not arguing there's parity...Rather that illegal workers do make a substantial tax contribution. There's no need for a correction, and I've freely added the proper context.

I have read that it's estimated illegals pay up to 7 Billion in Social Security taxes alone yearly, and this doesn't factor in Medicare, state, sales or property taxes which would add considerably. Much of this they see no benefit from.

Nor does it calculate the benefit you receive from potentially low wage workers helping to deliver services and products at a lower cost to you because of a lower standard of living or other basic care being subsidized by other people...

You're still dodging the issue, illegals do contribute and that has to be factored into the solution.

-spence

I've been following this thread with mild curiosity all day, and wow, some interesting perspectives out there. I love watching it unfold when someone justifys and bashes an entire country over what is undeniably the actions of a few. I've done some serious hospital time with one of my kids over the past two years, and I gotta tell ya, being one of the few caucasion families in a packed waiting room, I never once considered the fact that I was the only paying customer there. Unless you're on line behind them, how do you tell which ones are paying and which can't? Do they look different? Hey, do you think "they" can tell which white folks are bilking the system and which are paying? Who would have thought?! I almost feel bad now, that when "those people" were shuffling their papers back and forth and filling out forms with the registrar while trying to calm some absolutely adorable, but very scared and very sick child, that I didn't stand up and shout, "Hey, Javier, 'Give me your tired, your poor, your sick, your huddled masses' doesn't mean you guys who try to sneak in the back door undetected, so go back to the pueblo." Yea right. But getting back to my first point, it seems like more than a few in this thread have no use for either Brazil or Mexico, in their entirety, mind you, and I just hope the moderators here are not so influenced by that line of thinking that they discourage S-B associates from celebrating Cinco de Mayo this Friday.

Lest get everyone from S-B and SOL and sneak onto Mexico next Friday. Stay awhile and get a tan then head for Brazil :jester:


Soon the boards will be bare of posts with the bigger fish coming home and passing through :cheers:

gas is cheaper in brazil, they are self-sufficient when it comes to oil, produce 100% of what they use :P plus the beaches and fishing are better! lets move there

OH! and you wont even need to go in illegally, it's easy to get a visa

Ward... coming june... golly geez beav....



Spence, good dialog :)

Hey jimbo, I am 80% Portuguese, which is basicly Brazilian. No one in this thread has some much as hinted racisim, nor has anyone said, or even insinuated that they hate anyone.

The healthcare statments that others made were based on statistics, not sitiing in the loby and making a judgment call because there is a lot of mexicans there. And although we are not bashing a whole country, the Mexican government is largey to blame, they actually put out a damn flyer explaining the best way to get here illegally!

How come Canadiens are not running for the border? Mexico is run by crooked morons. How is it possible to have a third world country in our back yard when NAFTA exists?

The biggest downfall of allowing illegal imigration, is that instead of haveing to stay, and maybe start a revolution against thier crooked govenment, they simply run away. The problem, is that the Mexican revoloutionary army is in the USA cutting our grass. If we kick them all out, and build a wall so they can't run anymore, they will not put up with the government, especially seeing they already had a taste of freedom.

portuguese is as much brazillian as british is american :jump:

portuguese is as much brazillian as british is american :jump:


Hahah, there are more portuguese in brazil then in Portugal haha My family tree has so many of both that it's really hard to tell where everyone started out. It is not like over here, where you ask someone who's faminly has been here for 300 years what they are, and they say English ahaha, yeah right. And it strikes me funny how some say your not american unless your indian, why it this? Is this because we know exactly were we came from and when we got here? In that case, indians are not Americans, they are canadiens. I watched a show on discovery that claims indians migrated here from the far north. At what point do we call ourselves what we are? If you live here and pay your taxes, your an American, if you go to your so called "mother country", they will call you American as well, and probably a few other names hahah.

And if anyone wants to try to take thier country back, let them. How many indians today can live the way they did before it ws taken over? I worked with a black guy who went back to Africa to see where he came from, he said he would never go back, why would he? We are all americans, unless ofcourse you're here illegally, then your a criminal.

friday is get drunk day....

a little tequila ,

some lemons, and a couple of six packs of corona... :btu:

From where I sit , I see a lot of folks coming here for a better life. They may be illegal, But our Government gives a nod and wink to Big Business whenever their legality comes up. Why? Because they compete with Legal Labor. They are our competition.They keep our wages in check. I don't hate them for it , they're taking what they can get. I AM pissed at out Government for allowing this to happen to keep us devided among our selves. The middle working class is disappearing in this Country and we're rapidly turning into Wealthy/Peasants. No Middle Class. We work harder and harder and get less and less. Because our illegal competition does without complaint. For my two cents, we all shoulda been in the streets today. We all deserve better.

From where I sit , I see a lot of folks coming here for a better life. They may be illegal, But our Government gives a nod and wink to Big Business whenever their legality comes up. Why? Because they compete with Legal Labor. They are our competition.They keep our wages in check. I don't hate them for it , they're taking what they can get. I AM pissed at out Government for allowing this to happen to keep us devided among our selves. The middle working class is disappearing in this Country and we're rapidly turning into Wealthy/Peasants. No Middle Class. We work harder and harder and get less and less. Because our illegal competition does without complaint. For my two cents, we all shoulda been in the streets today. We all deserve better.

You hit the nail on the head Fred. (a little carpenter humor) Soon it will be the "HAVES" and the "HAVE NOTS". And guess where the average blue collar guy will be. :( Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against anyone here legally. My mothers side of the family came here in 1634. And my fathers side came here in the 1800s. We are all of immigrant descent wether it be 2 years ago or 300 years ago. The big difference is that they stayed and made this home. They didn't just come here to make a bunch of "duckets" and skedaddle home to live more comfortably than their neighbors.

Why do some people refuse to use the word illegal when talking about criminals who have purposely defied and violated our immigration laws by entering our country ILLEGALY? Its a slap in the face to those who have entered our country through the rightful process and "contribute" in an above board manner.

Stripersnipr, this is how they devide us. The law says that they are illegal. Those in power do absolutely nothing about it and as a matter of fact they encourage it back handedly. We legals are outraged that they are here not that we're getting screwed. We're being PLAYED against one another. All they want is a chance. Just a shot at a better life. And our politicians(whores) are selling themselves , the illegals , and us.

Big Deal..... My kid FINALLY got to use the NEW Lawnmower......

How about this as law ?

Only professionals or investors can immigrate to the country , no unskilled laborers will be allowed in .
Immigrants may purchase property but locations and availability are limited .Ocean front property is restricted to citizens born in the country.
Immigrants cannot vote or be elected to any public office.
Immigrants cannot collect any type of Government assistance.
Immigrants cannot protest Government policies or the President.
Immigrants cannot display the flag of a foreign country .
Any Immigrant who enters the country illegally will be imprisoned .


This is the law in Mexico .:smash:

How about this as law ?

Only professionals or investors can immigrate to the country , no unskilled laborers will be allowed in .
Immigrants may purchase property but locations and availability are limited .Ocean front property is restricted to citizens born in the country.
Immigrants cannot vote or be elected to any public office.
Immigrants cannot collect any type of Government assistance.
Immigrants cannot protest Government policies or the President.
Immigrants cannot display the flag of a foreign country .
Any Immigrant who enters the country illegally will be imprisoned .


This is the law in Mexico .:smash:

And this is the law for LEGAL immigrants .

Ward... coming june... golly geez beav....



Spence, good dialog :)


Dirtiest thing ever said on TV "Gee Ward....you were awfully hard on the Beaver last night" :hihi:

No..... we just slaughtered and infected with diseases the people who lived here for thousands and thousands of years before WE DISCOVERED AMERICA.

So leave America if you feel so guilty about it? The issue at hand has nothing to do with native americans or whatever. The issue at hand is people breaking the current laws of the US, and sticking it in the ass of imigrants who do it the legal way.

If your standing at the checkout at Stop&Shop, and 15 people with full shopping carts cut in front of you and look back and laugh at you becuase they just screwed you over you'd be pissed too. This is excactlly what the Illegals are doing, they are cutting in front of the line and flipping you off as they do it. And they could care less becuase people like you and others encourage them to cut in line and %$%$%$%$ over the good imigrants doing it the right way. Its dissgraceful that people condone this behavior.

Why do some people refuse to use the word illegal when talking about criminals who have purposely defied and violated our immigration laws by entering our country ILLEGALY? Its a slap in the face to those who have entered our country through the rightful process and "contribute" in an above board manner.

Right on Bro :kewl: They dont use the ILLEGAL word becuase it doesnt fit thier agenda. They know damn well what this debate is about, but they try an lump all imigrants in with the Illegals. Anyone who talks like you stated is a disshonest liar. People see right through thier lies thankfully. Well most of us do anyway....

Why don't we deport all the American citizens (also criminals) who employ illegal immigrants??

Why don't we deport all the American citizens (also criminals) who employ illegal immigrants??

since 9-11-01 .............when security supposedly got tighter only 3 companies were fined for hiring illegal aliens...in the USA

that was down from before 9-11 and essentially the government
is just looking the other way....

Why don't we deport all the American citizens (also criminals) who employ illegal immigrants??

Well, they are American citizens so i dont know where you can deport them too. They should be fined though. This is a totaly seperate issue than what we've been discussing. However, employers couldn't hire illigals if the Illegals were'nt here here in the first place!

Its still mind boggling how people avoid this issue and change the subject to avoid the LEGAL vs. ILLEGAL debate. Illegalls cut in front of the line and knowone cares? WTF?? Hell, next time i'm at Disneyworld i'm going right to the front of all the lines, screw all the people that are in front of me. I'm doing it MY way and they can all kiss my ass. And i'm hoping all you guys here who defend the Illegals for cutting in line will defend me for cutting in also. Sound kinda familar doesnt it?

Who's defending illegals cutting in line?

-spence

However, employers couldn't hire illigals if the Illegals were'nt here here in the first place!

What kind of nonsense is that....."Gee your honor, I wouldn't have robbed that liqour store if it wasn't there in the 1st Place"

That isn't an excuse for Illegal Hiring Practices...They're breaking the law just as much as the Illegal Immigrants are....even worse.

At least The ones getting hired are doing so to put food on the table....the ones doing the hiring are doing so to take advantage of them and the system.

How about a little jail time to the people doing the hiring instead of a fine....Lets see I saved $20 000 this year by having this Mexican woman clean my house but they just fined me $5,000.....i'm still up $15,000.......not bad

What kind of nonsense is that....."Gee your honor, I wouldn't have robbed that liqour store if it wasn't there in the 1st Place"

That isn't an excuse for Illegal Hiring Practices...They're breaking the law just as much as the Illegal Immigrants are....even worse.

At least The ones getting hired are doing so to put food on the table....the ones doing the hiring are doing so to take advantage of them and the system.

How about a little jail time to the people doing the hiring instead of a fine....Lets see I saved $20 000 this year by having this Mexican woman clean my house but they just fined me $5,000.....i'm still up $15,000.......not bad


I'm not using that as a defense for employers, im saying of we had no illegals they could'nt hire them. In other words get rid of the Illegals. Did you you not just read where i said employers should be punished???

Illegals should be punished, as should people who hire them knowing they are hiring illigals. Its pretty simple

I have read that it's estimated illegals pay up to 7 Billion in Social Security taxes alone yearly, and this doesn't factor in Medicare, state, sales or property taxes which would add considerably. Much of this they see no benefit from.
-spence


You dont think IF and WHEN they get amnest they will come looking for that 7 BILLION $$$$ which was paid into their BOGUS accts under bogus ss#s. Im thinking a first year ambulance chaser could win that case. Nice little nest egg for them I would say. "unclaimed $" that would have to be paid back.
I pay$400/mo for medical insurance(and am grateful to have it).. $30 co pay every time I visit my doctor. IF i get really sick, at some point Im sure I would be cutoff, maybe lose my house and everything else too.
These people walk,crawl,slither into ANY hospital and get free medical care, 24/7, its like a 7/11 to them. and thats not supposed to PI$$ me off ??

At least The ones getting hired are doing so to put food on the table....the ones doing the hiring are doing so to take advantage of them and the system.



they (the illegals) have been ripped off by many companies (patrons) who call imigration "themselves" just before they have to pay them....so they wont have to pay them at all...:mad:

i've seen it first hand while living in california so close to the border.

hell, i've purposely made "the migra" chase me so they won't catch the other guys...or else i'd get stuck unloading the whole damn truck load of fertilizer by myself when i worked at a golf course there.

You dont think IF and WHEN they get amnest they will come looking for that 7 BILLION $$$$ which was paid into their BOGUS accts under bogus ss#s.
Actually Tin, the IRS allows illegals to pay Social Security taxes legally using a special form.

-spence

Who's defending illegals cutting in line?

-spence

Sure sounds like alot of you are, even you are trying to compare Illegals hopping fences on the border to me getting a speeding ticket. Wich is obsurd by the way. Someone went to the we slaughtered native americans card, so all of us should leave the country. I see alot of people avoiding the term Illegal and lumping them in with legal immigrants. lots of excuses and people showing sympathy for people who cheat the system and spit on our laws. I just dont get it :huh:

No Skippy, what some are doing is presenting nuances of the real situation. It might be easy to take a knee-jerk approach and just shout for mass deportation, but that's not going to lead to any meaningful solutions...

-spence

Skip:
I made a point a while back in the thread, and wasnt calling anyone out...
BUT unless you KNOW for certain you're ancestors were Native American or came to America Legally, then you really dont have a leg to stand on...
Maybe everyone against illegal immigrants and is pro-deporting them can vouch for their ancestry, I'm not sure I can...

My take on this is that if you want to close to borders, arm those wack job Minutemen, build a fence, whatever, go for it. I see two MAJOR hurdles.
1. Show me the plan for gaurding the ENTIRE border to keep illegals out and enforce the law on those that sneak in anyways I dont think it is possible.
2. Show me a plan for deporting or jailing 11Million illegals who are already here and breaking the law...

You show me how these things will/can be accomplished without erupting into a civil war,
and maybe this would work... I see nothing but catastrophy if this goes through...

The coast guard get deployed in full force to round up, and deliver all illegals to Mexico, then they are assigned to gaurd the border.

I can vouch for my legal status, my ancestors have only been here a couple generations.

in order to have civil war break out, your CITIZENS have to arm themselves and fight the government. THis will not happen, no way no how.

QUOTE=ScottCThe coast guard get deployed in full force to round up, and deliver all illegals to Mexico, then they are assigned to gaurd the border.


The CG's are already underfunded and overstretched... would need to double their budget and fleet. Also, ever see a CG stand in the Arizona desert in August?

"I can vouch for my legal status, my ancestors have only been here a couple generations."

Scott, I wasnt calling anyone out, but you have a leg to stand on in the argument then....

"in order to have civil war break out, your CITIZENS have to arm themselves and fight the government. THis will not happen, no way no how"

I'm not advocating that, I'm saying they try deporting 11Mil people and violence of some kind probably will errupt.....

Also , we declare war on mexico, but do not invade, this way when they try to jump the border we can shoot them as invaders instead of have to round them up again. You do that a few times and they will stop coming.

QUOTE=ScottCThe coast guard get deployed in full force to round up, and deliver all illegals to Mexico, then they are assigned to gaurd the border.


The CG's are already underfunded and overstretched... would need to double their budget and fleet. Also, ever see a CG stand in the Arizona desert in August?

"I can vouch for my legal status, my ancestors have only been here a couple generations."

Scott, I wasnt calling anyone out, but you have a leg to stand on in the argument then....

"in order to have civil war break out, your CITIZENS have to arm themselves and fight the government. THis will not happen, no way no how"

I'm not advocating that, I'm saying they try deporting 11Mil people and violence of some kind probably will errupt.....


Stand where? We build them nice outposts with AC, this is the USA after all:kewl: and we need to just pull our sorry aasses out od Iraq and have our guys defend somthing worth defending, out own borders

The coast guard get deployed in full force to round up, and deliver all illegals to Mexico, then they are assigned to gaurd the border.

That should get rid of all of the Illegals......

And the Bonus is the Price of Heroin and Cocaine will be WAY down as the Supply should Go WAY up because the Coast Guard is busy doing the INS's Job instead of patroling the Waters like they were intended to do. So it will be open season for the Drug Traffickers

That should get rid of all of the Illegals......

And the Bonus is the Price of Heroin and Cocaine will be WAY down as the Supply should Go WAY up because the Coast Guard is busy doing the INS's Job instead of patroling the Waters like they were intended to do. So it will be open season for the Drug Traffickers

Really huh? So them fighting over in iraq is ok though? Our waters are voulnerable right now? All the drug traffickers are running rampid right now right?

Yeah right.

You take the guys out of Iraq, and put them on our southern border, This is not hard to understand.

Taske every man out of Iraq, and put them on our border, you get them home, and basicly out of harms way. And clean up our imigration problem.

Ok, now pick that apart with pathetically weak arguments hahahah,

Really huh? So them fighting over in iraq is ok though? Our waters are voulnerable right now? All the drug traffickers are running rampid right now right?

Yeah right.

You take the guys out of Iraq, and put them on our southern border, This is not hard to understand.

I'm confused.. take the CG's out of Iraq or the army out of Iraq to defend the border???

There are ~1951 miles of border between Mexico and the US... thats alot of gaurding.... show me a plan (the gov't) that can accomplish this.. I say it is BS.... cant be done.
I'm ignoring 5000 miles shared with Canada, so they sneak into canada and then sneak across there....

Bryan, he's just spouting nonsense to string you along :wavey:

-spence

Bryan, he's just spouting nonsense to string you along :wavey:

-spence

HAHAHA, your redicluous comments don't even belong in this argument.

if you could wave a magic wand today...

and they were all gone... all back in mexico........

there is no stopping that force... a fence?
is a JOKE

there is only...... changing the law....

and Scot : going to war with mexico
would start a civil war here...
like we've never seen before...

Bryan, he's just spouting nonsense to string you along :wavey:

-spence

No doubt... however this is typical...

If I were to apply for research money saying I'm going to do this without a how, when etc... it would get laughed at...
Congress can say 11Million people will get deported and our borders secured... but there is no How or when..... go figure....

I'm confused.. take the CG's out of Iraq or the army out of Iraq to defend the border???

There are ~1951 miles of border between Mexico and the US... thats alot of gaurding.... show me a plan (the gov't) that can accomplish this.. I say it is BS.... cant be done.
I'm ignoring 5000 miles shared with Canada, so they sneak into canada and then sneak across there....

Ofcourse you say it is BS, your commited to failure, you will never understand how it can be done.

We defend it the same way we invade countries. With military force, sure this sounds extreme . Every war we have ever fought sounded extreme.

Oh come now, Scott has plenty of "How".

I'm sure his next idea will be to hire "Snake Plissken" :D

-spence

Oh come now, Scott has plenty of "How".

I'm sure his next idea will be to hire "Snake Plissken" :D

-spence

Lets here some of your ideas smart guy, so far you have made a fool out of yourself and the only time anyone acknowledges you is when you throw out childish comments like this one.

Really huh? So them fighting over in iraq is ok though?

Umm.....NO...But thats a different thread and a different argument.

I would love to hear how the Coast Guard is going to patrol the borders in their cutters though...that should be interesting.

Umm.....NO...But thats a different thread and a different argument.

I would love to hear how the Coast Guard is going to patrol the borders in their cutters though...that should be interesting.

Another redicluous comment, and it is not a different thread, I used the war specifically bacause you said out coasts would be unguarded, and I proved it is not due to them being is iraq already, very simple.

Cutters on land huh hahahaha.

I just realized I am aruging with delusional people!

I am done

Lets here some of your ideas smart guy, so far you have made a fool out of yourself and the only time anyone acknowledges you is when you throw out childish comments like this one.
I've made a fool out of myself? Oh please...:doh:

So far you've suggested we replace 11 million people with 2 million inmates, use the US Military for a domestic assult ala Afghanistan and Iraq and turn the border into a carnival shooting gallery.

I'd say the Snake Plissken comment was right in line, and damn funny to boot :hihi:

-spence

And your comparing speeding with with illegal imagration, not to meationt he other stupid somment I didn't bother to read BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Another redicluous comment, and it is not a different thread, I used the war specifically bacause you said out coasts would be unguarded, and I proved it is not due to them being is iraq already, very simple.

Cutters on land huh hahahaha.

I just realized I am aruging with delusional people!

I am done


How is that a ridiculous comment...you're the one who brought up the idea of taking a fighting force that was built for protecting our shores....on the WATER, and using them to protect the Borders....on LAND.

....and putting even more of a strain on the Coast Guard isn't exactly going to help strengthen the defense of our coasts either.

Drug Trafficking is running rampant, our nation's Seaport security is a joke, and we are currently in a war on terrorism. and you want to use our fighting men to round up Pedro and his family for trying to sneak in for the chance at picking onions for below minimum wage.

....and I'm Dilusional :doh:

Not stupid at all, Skippy was bashing lawbreakers...I was just reminding him that he has something in common with illegal aliens...

They are both guilty of commiting a civil offence.

-spence

Ship them all back to where they came from.

How is that a ridiculous comment...you're the one who brought up the idea of taking a fighting force that was built for protecting our shores....on the WATER, and using them to protect the Borders....on LAND.

....and putting even more of a strain on the Coast Guard isn't exactly going to help strengthen the defense of our coasts either.

Drug Trafficking is running rampant, our nation's Seaport security is a joke, and we are currently in a war on terrorism. and you want to use our fighting men to round up Pedro and his family for trying to sneak in for the chance at picking onions for below minimum wage.

....and I'm Dilusional :doh:

Yes you are, the Coast guard are specifically trained to guard borders, you take them ALONG WITH The OTHER FORCES ( I put that in caps so you selective reading would pick it up) And asign them to our southern borders. You take the CG and have them train the National guard currently deployed in Iraq to protect out borders on land.

And I guess you don;t think drugs come through our southern borders right! HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH

Not stupid at all, Skippy was bashing lawbreakers...I was just reminding him that he has something in common with illegal aliens...

They are both guilty of commiting a civil offence.

-spence


If you do not know te difference, then you have no place in this thread, see, all the wise cracking you do might seem funny to you, but it makes you seem like you have no real imput, and to me, it erodes your integrity and portrays you as a jester. And what do jesters do? Act silly for the amusment of others.

Spence, I'm a little confused by your point on speeding. Using that rationale are you justifying illegal behavior because other people do it? Or is your point that if you commit small civil infractions you deserve no right to an opinion on a far more serious crime such as illegal border crossing? (yes it is far more serious than speeding) Or are you actually infering that speeding is no more serious than illegal border crossing? You make some good solid points but this doesn't seem to be one of them.

In light of all the above,,, I thought some of you may find this,,, interesting?


Working in Mexico


The following from a director with SW BELL in Mexico City who wants to share his experience.

I spent five years working in Mexico.

I worked under a tourist visa for three months and could legally renew it for three more months. After that you were working illegally. I was technically illegal for three weeks waiting on the FM3 approval.

During that six months our Mexican and US Attorneys were working to secure a permanent work visa called a FM3. It was in addition to my US passport that I had to show each time I entered and left the country. Barbara's was the same except hers did not permit her to work.

To apply for the FM3 I needed to submit the following notarized originals
(not copies) of my:

1. Birth certificates for Barbara and me.

2. Marriage certificate.

3. High school transcripts and proof of graduation.

4. College transcripts for every college I attended and proof of graduation.

5. Two letters of recommendation from supervisors I had worked for at least one year.

6. A letter from The St. Louis Chief of Police indicating I had no arrest record in the US and no outstanding warrants and was "a citizen in good standing."

7. Finally; I had to write a letter about myself that clearly stated why there was no Mexican citizen with my skills and why my skills were important to Mexico. We called it our "I am the greatest person on earth" letter. It was fun to write.

All of the above were in English that had to be translated into Spanish and be certified as legal translations and our signatures notarized. It produced a folder about 1.5 inches thick with English on the left side and Spanish on the right.

Once they were completed Barbara and I spent about five hours accompanied by a Mexican attorney touring Mexican government office locations and being photographed and fingerprinted at least three times. At each location (and we remember at least four locations) we were instructed on Mexican tax, labor, housing, and criminal law and that we were required to obey their laws or face the consequences. We could not protest any of the government's actions or we would be committing a felony. We paid out four thousand dollars in fees and bribes to complete the process. When this was done we could legally bring in our household goods that were held by US customs in Laredo Texas. This meant we rented furniture in Mexico while awaiting our goods. There were extensive fees involved here that the company paid.

We could not buy a home and were required to rent at very high rates and under contract and compliance with Mexican law.

We w ere required to get a Mexican drivers license. This was an amazing process. The company arranged for the licensing agency to come to our headquarters location with their photography and finger print equipment and the laminating machine. We showed our US license, were photographed and fingerprinted again and issued the license instantly after paying out a six dollar fee. We did not take a written or driving test and never received instructions on the rules of the road. Our only instruction was never give a policeman your license if stopped and asked. We were instructed to hold it against the inside window away from his grasp. If he got his hands on it you would have to pay ransom to get it back.

We then had to pay and file Mexican income tax annually using the number of our FM3 as our ID number. The companies Mexican accountants did this for us and we just signed what they prepared. I was about twenty legal size pages annually.

The FM 3 was good for three years and renewable for two more after paying more fees.

Leaving the country meant turning in the FM3 and certifying we were leaving no debts behind and no outstanding legal affairs (warrants, tickets or liens) before our household goods were released to customs.

It was a real adventure and If any of our senators or congressmen went through it once they would have a different attitude toward Mexico.

The Mexican Government uses its vast military and police forces to keep its citizens intimidated and compliant. They never protest at their White House or government offices but do protest daily in front of the United States Embassy. The US embassy looks like a strongly reinforced fortress and during most protests the Mexican Military surround the block with their men standing shoulder to shoulder in full riot gear to protect the Embassy. These pro tests are never shown on US or Mexican TV. There is a large public park across the street where they do their protesting. Anything can cause a protest such as proposed law changes in California or Texas.

Please feel free to share this with everyone who thinks we are being hard on illegal immigrants

In my opinion, this problem is way beyond repair now !!!
Some say there are as many as 20 million illegal imigrants in the country now from Maine to California!
How do we round up 20 million and deport them ???
Even if we did, they would just find a way to get back in the country anyway!!!
Plus,
I think there must be plenty of politicians and lawyers lining their pockets with $$$ causing this situation !!!

In my opinion, this problem is way beyond repair now !!!
Some say there are as many as 20 million illegal imigrants in the country now from Maine to California!
How do we round up 20 million and deport them ???
Even if we did, they would just find a way to get back in the country anyway!!!
Plus,
I think there must be plenty of politicians and lawyers lining their pockets with $$$ causing this situation !!!

I feel the same way somtimes, but you can;t allow yourself to give in to failure. Sure my ideas seem outlandish, but so far nothing else has even made a dent in the problem.

11 million illegals here is not a problem, it is an all out invaision, and I can say invaision because the Mexican government puts out a intruction manuals on how to invade with little problems. IF we did invade mexico and overthrow the government, sure it would lead to a battle, , but there are plenty of smart honest hard working mexicans here that would jump at the chance of being handed thier country. If we marketed it properly, we could make it more of a liberation than an invaision. There are enough Illegal Mexicans here that we could train to liberate their own country, they are not legal here right? so how can it be us invading? We are simply arming thier people.

Now, now, a laugh taketh away wrath. I actually thought Spence's Snake comment was pretty funny considering the solution to put a chunk of our troops on the border. Surely something has to be done there. Everyone is entitled to his own idea of what could or should be done, no matter how extreme. That's just brainstorming, but what I want to know is what incentive is there for someone to enlist or re-up if there's a good chance he or she will be standing shoulder to shoulder with another soldier for the period of that enlistment? You'd definitely be dealing with some unhappy campers who joined to see the world or learn a trade.

Not stupid at all, Skippy was bashing lawbreakers...I was just reminding him that he has something in common with illegal aliens...

They are both guilty of commiting a civil offence.

-spence

Comparing a speeding ticket with people hopping fences and coming to the US ILLEGALLY is a stretch.

Your making excuses for them again....

Now, now, a laugh taketh away wrath. I actually thought Spence's Snake comment was pretty funny considering the solution to put a chunk of our troops on the border. Surely something has to be done there. Everyone is entitled to his own idea of what could or should be done, no matter how extreme. That's just brainstorming, but what I want to know is what incentive is there for someone to enlist or re-up if there's a good chance he or she will be standing shoulder to shoulder with another soldier for the period of that enlistment? You'd definitely be dealing with some unhappy campers who joined to see the world or learn a trade.

Who says they have to be there thier whole tour? you rotate them out, and they do not have to stand there, we build outposts. Does anyone realize how many borders we are protecting right now world wide?

I can't fathom how you think troops gaurding our borders is so outlandish, this is the very essence of what our military is based on is it not?

In Portugal, when you turn 18 you HAVE to serve a couple years mandatory. Why can't we do the same here? say when you turn 18 you have to serve just a year, after you graduate highschool. Why would that be so bad? there are plenty of options we have, but we as Americans are so spolied and detatched from the rest of the worlds reality that most would think this is ludacris as well.

Comparing a speeding ticket with people hopping fences and coming to the US ILLEGALLY is a stretch.

Your making excuses for them again....

that is why when he started making comment like that and the illegal imigrants cutting in line , I just dismissed his opinion completly.

:rude: I know you are but what am I?!?!:buds:

Comparing a speeding ticket with people hopping fences and coming to the US ILLEGALLY is a stretch.

Your making excuses for them again....
Nope, let's try this again Skippy.

Someone who crosses the border in an improper manner is violating immigration law which is a civil offence. It's not a felony or considered a subtantial crime.

So it's not all that much different from your speeding problem, just a different court. You are both lawbreakers and should be punished under the law.

Now, there are many who want to make it a more serious crime...but that's another argument.

-spence

in various arguments about illegal aliens:

1. Did anyone here consider the health implications of allowing undocmented illegal aliens to continue living here, while not following the same rules the rest of us have too. When they walk across the boarder they do not have test results from a TB test. Tuberculosous is rampant in many neighboring countries to our south, including the caribean nations. TB has started showing up up again after having been almost eradicated. Individuals who sneak into America do not follow rules, the same rules were are responsible for. Its not just TB, it is the whole shebang. We could be in for a nightmare in this regard.

2. This is repitious but how do illegal aliens pay taxes from earnings when a fake SS # has been used? Also using the fake SS # is identity theft. Point # 2 also involves employers who hire the illegals to begin with. So how will this will impact what we pay if they were fired an deported. Employers are paying the illegals substandard wages, many times less than the minimum wage. And certainly none of them have any concept of overtime, and in that regard are being stolen from. I have seen this first hand. These employers are not charging any less for thier products, so they are reaping greater reward on the back of underpaid labor.

3. Illegals do not have to show up in court. If an illegal is arrested you never know who the heck your talking too. Judges throw thier hands in the air and released them on recognizance. The illegals have finally figured out that not showing up in court is no big deal after realizing that the court doesn't really know who they are either. In this regard from an identification point of view they are an uncontrollable people. No rules apply to them since they are in many aspects invisible. I know everytime you turn around thier is one there working or doing whatever. But they can disappear like a jeanie in a bottle. They all use our systems shortcomings to thier advantage. If it gets to hot for them, borrow a passport from someone who looks similar and go home.

Nope, let's try this again Skippy.

Someone who crosses the border in an improper manner is violating immigration law which is a civil offence. It's not a felony or considered a subtantial crime.

So it's not all that much different from your speeding problem, just a different court. You are both lawbreakers and should be punished under the law.

Now, there are many who want to make it a more serious crime...but that's another argument.

-spence

There are degree's of seriousness and punishishment in regards to civil offenses. The punishment for all civil offenses are not equal because some civil offenses are more serious than others. Speeding to illegal border crossing are not equal offenses and the argument that are equal does not hold water..

Spence, it is a crime to cross the border. It is a misdomeanor. To say it is civil is wrong. Its just not a felony yet!

Well, two more things. A police chief in New Hampshire was upheld by the U. S. Supreme court when he arrested an illegal alien for tresspassing. The state said he couldn't do that and that decision was appealed and the state court decision was overturned and the chiefs arrest for tresspassing was determined to be valid. So it could be said that every police can uphold and enforce all laws even federal statutes, which means that every police officer can arrest aliens for being here illegally on the simple charge of tresspassing.

Spence, it is a crime to cross the border. It is a misdomeanor. To say it is civil is wrong. Its just not a felony yet!
Technically it's not a criminal offence as a that requires the offence to have a
defined punishment (or something like that) to be considered criminal law...it's clearly a civil offence under US Law.

Well, two more things. A police chief in New Hampshire was upheld by the U. S. Supreme court when he arrested an illegal alien for tresspassing.
Could have been a unique situation. I'm pretty sure state and local do not have inherant authority to enforce immigration laws...although there is legislation in Congress to change this.

-spence

There are degree's of seriousness and punishishment in regards to civil offenses. The punishment for all civil offenses are not equal because some civil offenses are more serious than others. Speeding to illegal border crossing are not equal offenses and the argument that are equal does not hold water..
The fines allocated for illegal immigration and speeding are quite similar. I think the law stipulates 50-250 dollars for a first violation for a basic immigration violation.

It's precisely why we have such a problem, the penalites are very weak and there's little ability for the vast majority of law enforcement to do anything about it.

-spence

Nope, let's try this again Skippy.

Someone who crosses the border in an improper manner is violating immigration law which is a civil offence. It's not a felony or considered a subtantial crime.

So it's not all that much different from your speeding problem, just a different court. You are both lawbreakers and should be punished under the law.

Now, there are many who want to make it a more serious crime...but that's another argument.

-spence

So are you basicly trying to tell us that YOU believe traffic violation is just as bad as illegal imagration? We already know the government's stand, we don't need you to point that out, this discussion is about how to change the way our government is handling the situation, not point out how it has failed, we all know out government is failing us on this issue.

I'm not saying there's parity...but rather putting the violation in context for those clammoring about "illegal" bahavior...

-spence

Yes you are, the Coast guard are specifically trained to guard borders

No they are specifically trained for Seaport and Harbor Security (I Underlined and Bolded for your Selective reading Pleasure)

On 29 January 2003, General Richard Myers, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, was asked, "The Coast Guard announced today [it is] sending eight cutters, 600 people, to the Persian Gulf, which I understand is the first time they have been dispatched to a combat zone since the Vietnam War. What's the thinking behind that, and what's their mission going to be?" General Myers answered, "For the Coast Guard, primarily for port and harbor and waterway security. That's what they do best."

This also from the US Coast Guard Web Site...its there Mission Statement

"The United States Coast Guard is a military, multi-mission, maritime service and one of the nation’s five Armed Services. Its mission is to protect the public, the environment, and U.S. economic interests – in the nation’s ports and waterways, along the coast, on international waters, or in any maritime region as required to support national security."


You take the CG and have them train the National guard currently deployed in Iraq to protect out borders on land.

And this here makes sense take a unit that is specifically trained to operate on the Water and have THEM train the troops that were already trained to work on the ground. HAHAHAHAHAA!!


And I guess you don;t think drugs come through our southern borders right! HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH

Drugs come into this country by Air, Sea, and Land. Weakening one area to strengthen another does absolutely no good.

TDF;
Exactly...
The CG's have a tough enough job already...
Yeah they deal with illegals (cubans) who try and float over, but that is not their main gig!
I've had enough of this thread... circular logic is a waste of an argument!

[QUOTE=The Dad Fisherman]No they are specifically trained for Seaport and Harbor Security (I Underlined and Bolded for your Selective reading Pleasure)

On 29 January 2003, General Richard Myers, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, was asked, "The Coast Guard announced today [it is] sending eight cutters, 600 people, to the Persian Gulf, which I understand is the first time they have been dispatched to a combat zone since the Vietnam War. What's the thinking behind that, and what's their mission going to be?" General Myers answered, "For the Coast Guard, primarily for port and harbor and waterway security. That's what they do best."

This also from the US Coast Guard Web Site...its there Mission Statement

"The United States Coast Guard is a military, multi-mission, maritime service and one of the nation’s five Armed Services. Its mission is to protect the public, the environment, and U.S. economic interests – in the nation’s ports and waterways, along the coast, on international waters, or in any maritime region as required to support national security."

And this here makes sense take a unit that is specifically trained to operate on the Water and have THEM train the troops that were already trained to work on the ground. HAHAHAHAHAA!!

Yes, they are specifically traind to guard borders, they are trained to search vessles, and read people on a face to face basis. just because a RV can't float don't not make it any different then a boat hahahah

So you think searching boats and land vehicles are different in some way hahahahaha. They are TRAINED TO FIND SMUGGLERS HAHAHA they have been dealing with similar problems on our coasts for decades, they can help train the national guard to deal with the new issues they will face

. So by your reasoing, Navy should not fly jets right? They should leave that to the Airforce correct? After all the navy it trained to fight on the water! HAHAHAHAH Let me guess, they coast guard need to be on ships to function right? Dude, your hilarious


Drugs come into this country by Air, Sea, and Land. Weakening one area to strengthen another does absolutely no good


Again, more proof of your selective reading, you take the troops that are in iraq and asign them to the borders, not take them from the seaports You are definetly the only one here with selective reading issues hahaha


Everything else I didn't bother addressing for obvious reasons.

The fines allocated for illegal immigration and speeding are quite similar. I think the law stipulates 50-250 dollars for a first violation for a basic immigration violation.

It's precisely why we have such a problem, the penalites are very weak and there's little ability for the vast majority of law enforcement to do anything about it.

-spenceThe glaring difference between the consequences of speeding and illegal border crossing is: when caught speeding you are not sent to a detention center for an indefinite period of time awaiting deportation. Thats because of the fact that illegal border crossing is far more serious than speeding and the consequences of detention and deportation reflect the difference in severity of the two civil offenses.

Thats because of the fact that illegal border crossing is far more serious than speeding and the consequences of detention and deportation reflect the difference in severity of the two civil offenses.
I believe most of the illegals who are sent to dentention centers are also thought to be in violation of criminal statutes or considered a danger to the general population.

According to the Department of Homeland Security, in 2003 there were 1,046,422 apprehensions yet only 231,500 were actually sent to detention facilities.

-spence

You know what guys, all this arguing tells me that most of you don't care about illegal imigration because it does not affect you directly, it doesn't affect me either, but when the day comes that an illegal takes your jobs don't come crying, after all it's only about as bad as a speeding ticket. I don't have the worry, I own and operate my one company, so I can just sit back and watch all you sympathisers cry an whine about it later.

So far none of you symapthisers has even come up witht ANY kind of idea or solution better than mine, I have come up with a bunch, sure you dont agree with them, but seriously, untill you can come up with atleast somthing , in my eyes you haven't earned the right to debate it because you have not put forth any REAL imput.

It is pretty easy to sit on the sidelines and be critical.

But if you would like to take the stance that nothing can be done, that fine, but that has already been proven as a dismal failure. Just let them be, let them come, but don't cry later, I know either way I am all set, I am in no personal danger of losing anything.

My Gawd its like working in the Dementia ward at the Old Folks Home.

We don't care?

I'm still trying to get over the "illegals contribute nothing to our Country" line from Page 1! Have to agree on the ground rules before you can work towards a solutions.

The way some people here talk illegal workers are nothing more than sub-human leeches.

-spence

We don't care?

I'm still trying to get over the "illegals contribute nothing to our Country" line from Page 1! Have to agree on the ground rules before you can work towards a solutions.

The way some people here talk illegal workers are nothing more than sub-human leeches.

-spence


They are not citizens and are here illegally, and they hurt the middle and lower class more then they help anything dude, just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it wrong. Ground rules have been, and are still simple:
they are breaking the law, they need to go, how do we get rid of them.

If you don't agree with those ground rules then you have no business even debating this issue period. The little bit of money they do contribute in collected taxes can be easily consumed by the medical and other legal debt they accrue as a whole. So in the end, they are hurting more than helping.
They get into a car accident, they have no liscense, and no insurance, yeah they get deported, but the poor family who just lost there father gets the shaft. They lose their house and end up on welfare with nothing.

Bah, they are not hurting anyone right? This car accident thing was a big issue in Texas last year.


Point: When your here ilegally, no matter how good you act, because of your status you are forced to break a multitude of laws to function here, including drving a vehicle without liscense or insurance.

They are not citizens and are here illegally, and they hurt the middle and lower class more then they help anything dude, just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it wrong.
There are many who wouldn't agree. In 2001 Alan Greenspan cited a study before Congress indicating "Illegal workers (in Illinois) pay $547 million in taxes yearly, compared to $238 million in services used."

Ground rules have been, and are still simple:
they are breaking the law, they need to go, how do we get rid of them.
The notion that we should get deport all illegal aliens is clearly a minority position...

According to a recent NBC News/WSJ poll only 35% of Americans favored deporting illegal workers, while 61% favored letting them stay, work and pay taxes assuming security conditions were met.

If you don't agree with those ground rules then you have no business even debating this issue period.
Bunk, the majority of the Country and nearly all of Congress doesn't agree with your ground rules.

So in the end, they are hurting more than helping.
Based on what...an anecdote?

-spence

Same NBC/WSJ Poll with a slightly different question...

The minority is shrinking :read:

-spence

"Which comes closest to your view about what government policy should be toward illegal immigrants currently residing in the United States? Should the government deport all illegal immigrants back to their home country, allow illegal immigrants to remain in the United States in order to work but only for a limited amount of time, or allow illegal immigrants to remain in the United States and become U.S. citizens but only if they meet certain requirements over a period of time?"

Deport All - 18%
Remain for Limited Time - 17%
Remain if Meet Certain Requirements - 63%
Unsure - 2%

My ex-girlfriend jsut got her citizenship and her mom and brother hasn't gotten their yet. They have been here for more than five years when leaving Vietnam. So should they be deported, too?

There are many who wouldn't agree. In 2001 Alan Greenspan cited a study before Congress indicating "Illegal workers (in Illinois) pay $547 million in taxes yearly, compared to $238 million in services used."


The notion that we should get deport all illegal aliens is clearly a minority position...

According to a recent NBC News/WSJ poll only 35% of Americans favored deporting illegal workers, while 61% favored letting them stay, work and pay taxes assuming security conditions were met.


Bunk, the majority of the Country and nearly all of Congress doesn't agree with your ground rules.


Based on what...an anecdote?

-spence


Go tell that to Texas and southern California, The non mexican citizens that are being effected the most are the ones that should be listened to I am willing to bet that the 35% you speak of is based directly in those regions. all the Google info you drum up won't discount that. My father lives is Escondido, and they are just over run with illegals, hell there are deer crossing type signs on the highways with stick figures of people running and dragging thier kids!

It is illegal, no matter how much you google it, it is still illegal and should not be tollerated. Alan greenspan can blow me, there is no difinitive way to prove how much they put it, simple because what they are doing is illegal get it everything has to be an approximation unless they have a way of tracking all thier income, which is impossible becaseu they are ILLEGAL I hope you get to deal with the impacts someday, and lose your job to one of them or another situation. As a matter of fact why don't you just move to southern cal or texas and set up a center that deals with helping them out?

They are taking jobs from Americans, they steal healthcare, and your ok with that too. You should definelty relocate, your needed there.

My ex-girlfriend jsut got her citizenship and her mom and brother hasn't gotten their yet. They have been here for more than five years when leaving Vietnam. So should they be deported, too?
It depends, how good is her mom's pho? :drool: :hihi:

-spence

Same NBC/WSJ Poll with a slightly different question...

The minority is shrinking :read:

-spence

that 63% is for LEGAL IMIGRATION! So am I, so is everyone here, do it the right way, or get the hell out

that 63% is for LEGAL IMIGRATION! So am I, so is everyone here, do it the right way, or get the hell out
You read the poll wrong...the 63% is either supporting amnesty or legalizing those already here under a guest worker program.

Or from your perspective, rewarding bad bahavior :hee:

-spence

It depends, how good is her mom's pho? :drool: :hihi:

-spence
Funny, man.

Long story. I don't know what's happening to them now. She and I are not talking anymore. I haven't tasted her mom's pho. She works two jobs and her brother is working at the Whoel Foods makret in Newton and attending Mt. Ida college. I don't think that they are doing anythign wrong. They got their own jobs and are working their assess off to become full-pledged citizens. They were sponsored by her aunt and aren't in touch with each other for some reasons.

I don't think that they are doing anythign wrong. They got their own jobs and are working their assess off to become full-pledged citizens.
What's their immigration status?

-spence

Send em packin, cya

What's their immigration status?

-spence
No idea.

Spence, seeing you like to cut and paste your posts, I figured I would go straight to the government site and get some info: taken right from this site

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalrelease.html

This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.

Among the findings:

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.


Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).


With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.


On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.


Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.


If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.


Costs increase dramatically because unskilled immigrants with legal status -- what most illegal aliens would become -- can access government programs, but still tend to make very modest tax payments.


Although legalization would increase average tax payments by 77 percent, average costs would rise by 118 percent.


The fact that legal immigrants with few years of schooling are a large fiscal drain does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a net drain -- many legal immigrants are highly skilled.


The vast majority of illegals hold jobs. Thus the fiscal deficit they create for the federal government is not the result of an unwillingness to work.


The results of this study are consistent with a 1997 study by the National Research Council, which also found that immigrants' education level is a key determinant of their fiscal impact.

If you read the site is also has some positive points as well, so this is not a biased study by no means, like they don;t collect that much welfare, well they can;t they are illegal, thy don't collect must SS either..they can;t they are illegal. this is site pretty damn good.

Spence, seeing you like to cut and paste your posts, I figured I would go straight to the government site and get some info: taken right from this site
Straight to the Government site? What pray tell "government" are you talking about???

This is a think tank aimed at reducing immigration.

-spence

I keep saying I'm done with this then I get sucked back in. I think The Dad maybe right, but I guess in order to continue to post if I want to, I just have to make some suggestions as to solutions to the problem and I'm good to go. OK, I was just thinking, maybe make a degree of difficullty rating for any illegal immigrant who is caught. If he just climbed through a hole in a fence, hey, where's the creativity or danger in that, but if he built a human catapault and shot himself over the fence and landed unharmed in the US, well hey, I admire that kind of spunk. "OK, tell me again, you swam over, at night, in shark infested waters disguised in a seal outfit???? You are so in my brother, welcome to America."
Part of the reason this menagerie can't come up with a reasonable solution is because I don't imagine alot of us have any experience or background in writing international policy. To even fathom the volumes of intertwining solutions it would take to make that happen is incomprehensible to me, but I believe the lawmakers could do it if they put their minds to it.
While I don't condone the actions of illegal immigrants sneaking into the country, and I can understand, for example, how they or anyone who doesn't get health insurance and their abuse of the system ends up costing me money, but at the same time, I don't see that the guy who sneaks in, if he's not a criminal, just looking for something better for his family, probably won't ever have much better a quality of life than the one he crossed the border for, and isn't likely to be getting a top management job, or any job for that matter that isn't pretty near the bottom of the employment barrell and only because it was probably scoffed at by some out of work citizen who felt it was beneath him to do, how do I convince myself that illegal alien doesn't deserve to be given a break.

Straight to the Government site? What pray tell "government" are you talking about???

This is a think tank aimed at reducing immigration.

-spence

Your right I meant non profit. Still go do a google search on imigration, there is tons of facts siting both sides. So all the cutting and pasting doesn;t mean anything. Bottom line, they are breaking the laws, and justice is blind, this country has preached no greay ares with in the law, this situation has to be no different. Either make them all legal, or kick them the hell out. One way or another they need to be put on the grid legaly.

Oh and another thing, make them all learn english, and tell them to stopp waiving the Mexican flag in out faces, iof they like it there so much, go back.

I support amnesty for all speeders, after all they are just in a hurry trying to make a better life for themselves and thier families.

Not for illegal immigrants, but immigrants, did a Snopes check and found this to be true. Sound words from Teddy:
Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907.
"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American ... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag ... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language ... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

So all the cutting and pasting doesn;t mean anything.
Yea, the US Federal Reserve Chairman, Wall Street Journal...must be the Liberal media right?
Oh and another thing, make them all learn english, and tell them to stopp waiving the Mexican flag in out faces, iof they like it there so much, go back.

See attached :hee:

-spence

I support amnesty for all speeders, after all they are just in a hurry trying to make a better life for themselves and thier families.

yea my $80 ticket should be revoked, we let illegals break the law so why cant I? Why am i, as a LEGAL citizen getting punished, and Paco who hopped the fence gets welcomed with open arms and then gets free %$%$%$%$ that i as a LEGAL have to pay for? WTF?! :smash:

Why even have imigration laws if we dont enforce them? Why go through the entire legal process if it really meens nothing? When we are rewarding people for cutting in line, why even have a process at all? Just open the borders and let all of mexico in. :conf:


The more i think about it the more pissed i get...:wall:

Speeding isn't really enforced all that much when you think about it. How many times do you drive down the road and see other speeders and you Skip... just look the other way :hs:

-spence

You have some serious ideas for deployment of our military forces. So I would like to quote my favorite movie Colonel.

"I have neither the time nor inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post."

Go ahead and join up, then you can be part of the solution. Then you can make a difference.

Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all.


I agree with pretty much everything said....but this one is up for interpretation.

This would put a pretty big dent in clubs like the Franco-American, The Loyal order of Hibernians, PLAV and other clubs that celebrate being American AND there own heritage.

We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language

I agree with this to some extent but I find it kind of unreasonable for us to expect someone who just got here to instantly speak English. English is not an easy language to learn if you've never spoken it before.

I've heard people say that they go into 7-11's and Dunkin Donuts and are upset because the person behind the counter can't speak english (which isn't 100% accurate, they speak very little English)....do any of you know when this person arrived here? Could have been last month, yet you expect them to lose there accent and speak fluent english by now. It takes years to learn the language and that is with proper training.....which I doubt they can afford on a Dunkin Donuts salary. They are probably trying hard to understand the language and learn it...but they aren't going to get much help from someone who is all pissed off because he had to repeat his order a second time....because the person behind the counter can make sure they are understanding it right.

I'll tell you right now, they may not speak very good english.....But I definitely don't get the attitude from them that I get from some White Anglo-Saxon pimply faced kid that speaks perfect english and is a citizen.

Well I'm off my Soap-Box now...

You have some serious ideas for deployment of our military forces. So I would like to quote my favorite movie Colonel.

"I have neither the time nor inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post."

Nicely Said...:claps:

Letter to Senator Frist from a retired border patrol agent(NOT bull being spewed from the Senate)
David J. Stoddard

Posted on 05/03/2006 4:55:21 AM PDT by IrishMike

This letter sent to Senator Frist from a retired border patrol agent has more common sense than all the bull being spewed from the Senate, with the exception of a few sensible representatives.

Dear Senator Frist:

There is a huge amount of propaganda and myths circulating about illegal aliens, particularly illegal Mexican, Salvadorian, Guatemalan and Honduran aliens.

1. Illegal aliens generally do NOT want U.S. citizenship. 2. There are no jobs that Americans won't do. 3. Every person who illegally entered this nation left a home. 4. Illegal aliens are NOT critical to the economy. 5. This is NOT an immigrant nation. 6. The United States is welcoming to legal immigrants. 7. There is no such thing as the "Hispanic vote". 8. Mexico is NOT a friend of the United States. 9. Although some illegal aliens enter this country for a better life, there are 6 billion people on this planet. 10. There is a labor shortage in this country. This is a lie. 11. It is racist to want secure borders. What is racist about wanting secure borders and a secure America?
TOPICS: Editorial; Mexico
KEYWORDS: ALIEN; ALIENS; BORDER; BOYCOTT; BUSH; CONGRESS; DHS; ELECTIONS; FRIST; ILLEGAL; ILLEGALIMMIGRATION; ILLEGALS; IMMIGRANTLIST; IMMIGRATION; MAYDAY; MEXICO; PROTEST; RALLY; SENATE
body of Letter............

Dear Senator Frist:

There is a huge amount of propaganda and myths circulating about illegal aliens, particularly illegal Mexican, Salvadorian, Guatemalan and Honduran aliens.

1. Illegal aliens generally do NOT want U.S. citizenship. Americans are very vain thinking that everybody in the world wants to be a U.S. citizen. Mexicans, and other nationalities want to remain citizens of their home countries while obtaining the benefits offered by the Unit ed States such as employment, medical care, in-state tuition, government subsidized housing and free education for their offspring. Their main attraction is employment and their loyalty usually remains at home. They want benefits earned and subsidized by middle class Americans. What illegal aliens want are benefits of American residence without paying the price.

2. There are no jobs that Americans won't do. Illegal aliens are doing jobs that Americans can't take and still support their families. Illegal aliens take low wage jobs, live dozens in a single residence home, share expenses and send money to their home country. There are no jobs that Americans won't do for a decent wage.

3. Every person who illegally entered this nation left a home. They are NOT homeless and they are NOT Americans. Some left jobs in their home countries. They come to send money to their real home as evidenced by the more than 20 billion dollars sent out of the country each year by illegal aliens. These illegal aliens knowingly and willfully entered this nation in violation of the law and therefore assumed the risk of detection and deportation. Those who brought their alien children assumed the responsibility and risk on behalf of their children.

4. Illegal aliens are NOT critical to the economy. Illegal aliens constitute less than 5% of the workforce. However, they reduce wages and benefits for lawful U.S. residents.

5. This is NOT an immigrant nation. There are 280 million native born Americans. While it is true that this nation was settled and founded by immigrants (legal immigrants), it is also true that there is not a nation on this planet that was not settled by immigrants at one time or another.

6. The United States is welcoming to legal immigrants. Illegal aliens are not immigrants by definition. The U.S. accepts more lawful immigrants every year than the rest of the world combined.

7. There is no such thing as the "Hispanic vote". Hispanics are white, brown, black and every shade in between. Hispanics are Republicans, Democrats, Anarchists, Communists, Marxists and Independents. The so-called "Hispanic vote" is a myth. Pandering to illegal aliens to get the Hispanic vote is a dead end.

8. Mexico is NOT a friend of the United States. Since 1848 Mexicans have resented the United States. During World War I Mexico allowed German Spies to operate freely in Mexico to spy on the U.S. During World War II Mexico allowed the Axis powers to spy on the U.S. from Mexico. During the Cold War Mexico allowed spies hostile to the U.S. to operate freely. The attack on the Twin Towers in 2001 was cheered and applauded all across Mexico. Today Mexican school children are taught that the U.S. stole California, Arizona, new Mexico and Texas. If you don't believe it, check out some Mexican textbooks written for their schoolchildren.

9. Although some illegal aliens enter this country for a better life, there are 6 billion people on this planet. At least 1 billion of those live on less than one dollar a day. If wanting a better life is a valid excuse to break the law and sneak into America, then let's allow those one billion to come to America and we'll turn the USA into a Third World nation overnight. Besides, there are 280 million native born Americans who want a better life. I'll bet Bill Gates and Donald Trump want a better life. When will the USA lifeboat be full? Since when is wanting a better life a good reason to trash another nation?

10. There is a labor shortage in this country. This is a lie. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of American housewives, senior citizens, students, unemployed and underemployed who would gladly take jobs at a decent wage.

11. It is racist to want secure borders. What is racist about wanting secure borders and a secure America? What is racist about not wanting people to sneak into America and steal benefits we have set aside for legal aliens, senior citizens, children and other legal residents? What is it about race that entitles people to violate our laws, steal identities, and take the American Dream without paying the price?

For about four decades American politicians have refused to secure our borders and look after the welfare of middle class Americans. These politicians have been of both parties. A huge debt to American society has resulted. This debt will be satisfied and the interest will be high. There has already been riots in the streets by illegal aliens and their supporters. There will be more. You, as a politician, have a choice to offend the illegal aliens who have stolen into this country and demanded the rights afforded to U.S. citizens or to offend those of us who are stakeholders in this country. The interest will be steep either way. There will be civil unrest. There will be a reckoning. Do you have the courage to do what is right for America? Or, will you bow to the wants and needs of those who don't even have the right to remain here?

There will be a reckoning. It will come in November of this year, again in 2008 and yet again in 2010.

We will not allow America to be stolen by third world agitators and thieves.

David J. Stoddard

U.S. Border Patrol (RET)

Hereford, Arizona

You have some serious ideas for deployment of our military forces. So I would like to quote my favorite movie Colonel.

"I have neither the time nor inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post."

Go ahead and join up, then you can be part of the solution. Then you can make a difference.\

SEMPER FI

I will accept your appology gracfully
I blew L4 out during boot in 1992. Everyday I wake up with pain you can only imagine sir. This picture is right after the my first surgery, only later to be followed my 2 more.

I don't brag about anything , nor do I feel I have to name myself anything in the internet to gain respect. I joined to go directly the the gulf, and not to sit on a boat.

HOOOOOOOOOOOOOORAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Now what were you saying?

Nicely Said...:claps:


Yeah it was wasn't it. So you served right?

\

SEMPER FI

I will accept your appology gracfully
I blew L4 out during boot in 1992. Everyday I wake up with pain you can only imagine sir. This picture is right after the my first surgery, only later to be followed my 2 more.

I don't brag about anything , nor do I feel I have to name myself anything in the internet to gain respect. I joined to go directly the the gulf, and not to sit on a boat.

HOOOOOOOOOOOOOORAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Now what were you saying?

Okay, i apologize. Thanks for trying.

I didn't name myself Navy Chief to gain respect. I named myself that because that is what I am.

I did alot more than sit on a boat during IF1.

Okay, i apologize. Thanks for trying.

I didn't name myself Navy Chief to gain respect. I named myself that because that is what I am.

I did alot more than sit on a boat during IF1.

Thanks, it really meant a lot to me to be a Marine, My grandfather fought at Guadalcanal and brought home 2 purple hearts, my uncle fought in vietnam.

There is not a day that goes by that I don't wish I could have served my tour, but when I came home, my grandfather was proud that I tried, and on his deathbed he handed me one of his purple hearts.

I love my country, and I would kill and die for it, anything I would suggest out military to do, I would gladly lead the assault.

Yeah it was wasn't it. So you served right?


7 Years in the USN....

Great, now that that's solved we can get back to Scott leading the assult of East Los Angeles.

Navy Chief, think you could provide some 16" support from Santa Monica State Beach? :uhoh:

-spence

Great, now that that's solved we can get back to Scott leading the assult of East Los Angeles.

Navy Chief, think you could provide some 16" support from Santa Monica State Beach? :uhoh:

-spence

Why do that, we can just send them all to your house.

The illegals or 16" shells?

-spence

The illegals or 16" shells?

-spence


Hahah, no the illegals the 16" shells would scare the fish in the river:hee:

Bring 'em on...I've got a lot of landscaping projects planned this year. We could probably get them done by Memorial day.

-spence

Can I trade 100 Portugees for 100 Mexicans.
I'll throw in a draft pick to be named later.


We need some authentic mexican food in Rhode Island.
Taco Bell don't cut it. I need some Carne Asada.
I need some menudo.

I miss San Diego

I agree...

Never been that impressed with Portugese food.

-spence

We need more mexican food in Rhode Island.
I miss San Diego


Dad lives in Escondido, the little mexican girls go door to door selling tamalies:drool:

Love those tomales

Love those little mexican girls. :drool:

Can I trade 100 Portugees for 100 Mexicans.
I'll throw in a draft pick to be named later.



I miss San Diego

Work wise, In my experiance Portuguese work harder, and are usually highly skilled. Go to any boat building company and mostly all the cabinet makers are Portuguese. BUT they are back stabbing, whineing Boss nut swingers They will talk crap in Portuguese right in front of you if they think you can'tunderstand. I have blonde hair, so they thiought they could get away with it, too bad I speak Portuguese:fishslap:
I live in fall river and I am mostly Portuguese, and there is more portuguese around here then anything else. Mexicans work hard too but usually never had the benifit to learn trades like in Portugual.
When I worked at the tree nurseries in the summer in highschool with Mexicans they only seemd to work really hard when the boss was watching, but they were all real cool, and vey appreciative and never started any crap. Much better to work with

I agree...

Never been that impressed with Portugese food.

-spence

To be honest, me either. My mother in law is full portuguese and her cooking is absolutely horrible. everything is over spiced, and I don;t mean hot, I mean just over spiced, and they over cook everything. ANd most of the time they only cook meat, not vegitables! How the hell can you only eat meat for every meal. The only thing I found good is the stews.

Mexican food is by far the best, it is also considers the international food of choice.

My best guess (never having gone to mainland Portugal or the islands) is that what we get around here is more akin to the blah Italian American cuisine so popular around these parts as well...basically Southern Italian inspired hard wheat pasta and too much tomato sauce, dumbed down during the war for a more frugal and straightforward US patron.

-spence

My best guess (never having gone to mainland Portugal or the islands) is that what we get around here is more akin to the blah Italian American cuisine so popular around these parts as well...basically Southern Italian inspired hard wheat pasta and too much tomato sauce, dumbed down during the war for a more frugal and straightforward US patron.

-spence

My inlaws are from st Micheal in the Aszores, so they cook what they grew up on, and it is nasty. They don;t do pasta at all, pasta is not considers Portuguese food at all.

Well, I was speaking of the Italian American food...

I would think (hope) that the food on the mainland has enough Spanish influence to be a little more substantial?

-spence

If any of us really cared we wouldn`t be here on a fishing site twisting off our opinions.

We would be out there working for or against it in a viable meaningful way.





:wavey: