All,
The adult menhaden supply in Narragansett bay this season has apparantly been very abundant so far. Boat fishermen have been doing very well with larger bass using live menhaden provided by asking local pogy boats for some bait. On any given morning boats can be seen lining up for free bait. Now asking a pogy boat for some live pogies is nothing new - it's been a common practice for a very long time. Pogy boats generally will give you some - many anglers will trade for some pogies by giving the boat crew a six pack of beer. This is very good Public Relations by pogy boats.

It's also long been known that RISAA, Rhode Island's largest sportfishing organization, is trying to ban menhaden seining in the bay.

My question is: Should local anglers be asking for and accepting live pogies from these boats on one hand while at the same time trying to ban these same boats from taking pogies from Narragansett bay? Now, apparantly one of the pogie boats is photographing various fishermen as they receive their pogies - and it is now reported that one of the major opponents of pogy seiners has been in line to get free bait. How do you feel about this issue?

DZ

Sounds like a hypocrite just got busted :fishslap:

-spence

Tough question. I definitely would like to see the pogie boats banned. However , since they are not and are out there taking thousands and thousands of fish anyway , I don't see a problem with guys getting a few for fishing. The boats are going to grab all the pogies they can while the law allows. they aren;t taking any more to give some to local fisherman.

On the other hand , there is the principles involved. Perhaps the pictures of locals getting the bait fish will be used against those trying to limit the pogie boats.

Anyway , as long as its legal for the pogie boats to be in the Bay , I couldn't condemn a guy who gets a few free ones for bait.

BTW , I have never gotten any bait from them.

The guys on the boats still have to make a living.
You still wanna go fishing with live pogies.

Hey, remember, they're screwing each other too.

You gotta practice what you preach. As Saltheart said, if it's legal then you can't blame anyone for using them...but if you've taken a position against the practice it's more than a bit hypocritical.

Sort of like stating you're anti-Walmart but secretly buying diapers there because they're so damn cheap :)

-spence

Most of the pogies go to your bait shops and local lobsterman anyway. So in some senses it is our bait. Maybe a better balance can be struck, lets see, no Pogy Boat north of Jamestown :D ?

It is a little hard to think about getting pogies from the boat then to rally in uproar for a ban. Meanwhile, the pogie boat is laughing all the way to Fotomat

It's also long been known that RISAA, Rhode Island's largest sportfishing organization, is trying to ban menhaden seining in the bay.


I don't think, based on cenversations that I have had with Steve Madieros, that that is a true statement.

http://www.risaa.org/newsletter/menhaden_passes.html

Not sure what they want to do w/ Arc Bait and the other boats that sell to Lobster and B&T's....

DZ
personally /I would like them stopped /but this is RI /most of the commercial guys that fish the bay /would agree with me // because we realize the souce of the food chain W/B larger & for a longer duration/ But also were not stupid /if we can get our pogies from the // then it makes life easier & the bait in perfect condition ;;;pogies that are gotten from the boat at 9Am will still be alive when you go fishing the next day at 7AM ..........


as far as RISSA -I don,t know their position on this ===but if ya belong to RISSA or not ======your right in line to get the freebies .... been there/done that //
I also heard they take photo,s =====that could really do a number on some of the outspoken critics ===== because they {ARE} in line for bait ;;;
TUFF to throw stones if ya live in a glass house >>>>>>

:spin:

TUFF to throw stones if ya live in a glass house >>>>>>

:spin:[/QUOTE]


Well people in glass houses should be careful where they shower....

Well people in glass houses should be careful where they shower....

Especially when hung like Rocky the Squirrel instead of Bullwinkle

(I just thought I'd add something mildly humorous :shocked: :buds: )

stop fishing with bait and you can throw all the stones you want.:devil2:

what if you work in a glass house??

If someone is a major opponent of menhaden seining then they shouldn`t be in line for bait....thats just wrong.

They should be smarter and wait around the corner and have someone else pick up for them :hihi:

what if you work in a glass house??
You'd be your spouse's louse blowing a glass mouse :)

-spence

It all depends on how you stand on the netting game, I for one don't care but if you are agaist it and then take bait from the same guys you are fighting against that is wrong and you should be hung out like they are going to do with those pictures. that is a lose lose deal

This from a guy (ME). that has seen the:af: Donna Mae a "pogie Boat" clean out our Quincy Bay of POGIES about 10 years back......

I am just starting to see adult pogies up this way the last few years:af:


I say get your own pogies....

What about the shore fishermen, who can't get their own pogies?

What about the shore fishermen, who can't get their own pogies?

no one is entitled to anything in the ocean. if the commercial harvest of pogies stopped tomorrow, i don't think there would be that many upset people. in fact, if the shore guys were smart, instead of crying that they couldn't get any to chunk, they would stock up on wood and just wait for that 50 to come by chasing a nice fat pogy and toss that green/yellow floater and start walkin'!

You can complain all you want, they are not going anywhere. There is no law against them being there. By not getting bait off the bunker boat all one would be doing is hurting themselves, it serves no purpose to deny yourself the bait. I saw it first hand this year and I think everyone who is everyone in the fishing business was lined up waiting to get there bait for the day...Its the same stuff everyone buys in the local shops to use as chunk bait.

I think certainly they "rape " the resource and I am not saying something should not be done, however I also have had many conversations with the RISAA president and the truth is ark bait does not even have to sit down and talk about it, they are protected beyond protected, The state acually has no control over it. The federal govenment does because its a migratory fish. Fact is the Pogie boat is here to stay like it or not, no harm in getting free bait........

Methinks #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^& just doen't want anyone using eels:rotfl: ............

The state acually has no control over it.
Hasn't the State already passed restrictions on the taking of Menhaden for reduction?

:confused:

-spence

Spence:

I believe the area,s that were legally marked prohibited are area,s where there is very seldom any descent amount of pogies .. The agreement your thinking about is a gentleman,s agreement & we all know how good that is ><><><><<


PS / Very often shore guys do have access to schools of adult bunker // ya just have to know where & when <><<><><><>><

Hasn't the State already passed restrictions on the taking of Menhaden for reduction?

:confused:

-spence
Clammer is right, it was a gentelmans agreement and basically they can laugh at it if they want, the state has never passed any restrictions on them and , they cant even if they wanted to.........

I hope this thread does not head into the toilet like so many others.....If you really want to know, call your legislators.....But the fact is, there is nothing at all that can be done by any state official or anything else to stop, reduce or anything concerning the bunker boat...It is what it is. There is a fedaral law that trumps everything when it comes to the taking of menhaden, I dont know the particulars but, I do know there isnt anything that can be done...

To some of you guys this may be new, but it has been going on for many years....Lots of influencial people have been involved and many advocates of fisherman etc... have spent half there lives fighting this...Its fruitless...

Lobsterman also carry considerable weight as they have a stake on the menhaden as bait, in fact the whole fishing industry does so, you would also take on the lobsterman etc... It goes deep...Then you have the catfood industry and there millions and lobbyists...Like I said its deep. I am sure the recreational "bait" use of menhaden is way, way down the list.


DZ, They have been taking pictures of guys getting bait from them for years...Nothing new....

DZ's first question:

"Should local anglers be asking for and accepting live pogies from these boats on one hand while at the same time trying to ban these same boats from taking pogies from Narragansett bay?"

My answer is .....NO

DZ's second question:

How do you feel about this issue?

My answer:
Let's clarify the isuues raised in the thread once and for all.
Is and where is the ban?
Is RISSA for or against this?

I do not know enough about the commercial end of this and certainly do not want to ruin anyone's ability to make a living but remember what Striper1 just said:

"that has seen the Donna Mae a "pogie Boat" clean out our Quincy Bay of POGIES about 10 years back......

I am just starting to see adult pogies up this way the last few years"

So, my feeling is don't rape it dry and manage it properly. I would like to hear what Captain Don from Captain Don's Bait and Tackle has to say about this. I respect his knowledge of the fishery in general.

Thanks DZ you bring up another great discussion.

Good points #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^& but women were never going to be allowed to vote either. Not arguing with you just saying "never say never."

u

I believe the area,s that were legally marked prohibited are area,s where there is very seldom any descent amount of pogies .. The agreement your thinking about is a gentleman,s agreement & we all know how good that is
Help me understand RI Law then...

§ 20-4.1-1 Designation of menhaden management area. – Narragansett Bay in its entirety is designated a menhaden management area. The area shall include the east and west passages of Narragansett Bay, Mt. Hope Bay, and the Sakonnet River, and be bordered on the south by a line from Bonnet Point to Beavertail Point to Castle Hill Light. The southern boundary will then extend from Land's End to Sachuset Point and then to Sakonnet Point. All sections of the management area north of a line from Spink Neck in the town of North Kingstown to Pine Hill Point on Prudence Island and from a point at Homestead Dock on the easterly shore of Prudence Island, thence northeasterly to Hog Island Shoal Light, thence to the most easterly end of the Mt. Hope Bridge in the town of Portsmouth, and north of a line extending from McCurry Point, so called, on the east side of the town of Portsmouth northeasterly in a line to the southerly point of Jack's Island, so called, in the town of Tiverton will be permanently closed to the taking of menhaden for reduction purposes by the use of purse seines.

§ 20-4.1-2 Areas where purse seining allowed. – All sections of the management area where purse seining for menhaden is allowed will be open as determined by the department of environmental management.

§ 20-4.1-3 Prohibition on the taking of menhaden. – (a) The taking of menhaden for reduction purposes (fish meal) is prohibited in Rhode Island and all state waters. A vessel will be considered in the reduction (fish meal) business if any portion of the vessel's catch is sold for reduction purposes.

(2) The director of environmental management shall have the power to make emergency rules regarding this prohibition to protect the public health and safety from an unexpected hazard or risk. The marine fisheries council shall be notified of all emergency rules on or before their effective date.

(b) These restrictions shall in no way prevent the taking of menhaden by purse seine for bait, chum, or purposes other than fish meal reduction.


I'd be curious to know what Federal law would keep RI from banning non-reduction fishing...given than it would seem they can certainly restrict it for reduction purposes...

And Bill, I'm not trying to start a fight...I just don't understand the law as written vs what you're saying :confused:

-spence

NJ stopped the reduction boats in their waters a few years ago, look at their fishery now. Incredible
I dont believe the Fed controls bunker harvest in RI
You can reference the "salty dogs" on SOL search to follow the successful lobbying to end bunker reduction in NJ waters

NJ stopped the reduction boats in their waters a few years ago, look at their fishery now. Incredible
I dont believe the Fed controls bunker harvest in RI
You can reference the "salty dogs" on SOL search to follow the successful lobbying to end bunker reduction in NJ waters

Jersey guys are literally debating whether catching a 30 pounder requires skill or not when you use bunker, or even fishing around them for that matter with plugs.

It's apparently that good....

In this case federal law does not supercede state law just b/c menhaden are a migratory species. The state of RI or any state for that matter has the right to restrict fishing - specifically gear types (ie seining) in their state waters.

The best example of this is Massachusetts has banned Tuna Seining in State Waters for 2006 (this includes all of Cape Cod Bay). Even though Bluefin are one of the most strictly managed federal species, Ma could supercede in state waters.

I know the Pogy boats are very well connected, but anything is possible. The Tuna seiners had a very powerful lobby and were finally limited due to years of outcry from many rec and commercial fisherman. Whether this ever happens in Narragansett bay or not is anybody's guess. But it is possible, and legal for the state to step in if they so desire.

As I stated earlier ///this is RI //

Spence /
from tha take from your post of the laws /it makes reference to taking as bait ---not fertilizer or cat food .. I don,t believe Arc bait sells to anyone except bait dealer, lobsterman & fisherman ...

WTF knows why & how the big boat from Maine got in & worked our waters this year ?????????

RI, greatest little government money can buy!
Slinger

The state can ban pogies netting in state waters, not only has NJ done it but do have NY and CT in Long Island Sound.

In this case federal law does not supercede state law just b/c menhaden are a migratory species. The state of RI or any state for that matter has the right to restrict fishing - specifically gear types (ie seining) in their state waters.

The best example of this is Massachusetts has banned Tuna Seining in State Waters for 2006 (this includes all of Cape Cod Bay). Even though Bluefin are one of the most strictly managed federal species, Ma could supercede in state waters.

I know the Pogy boats are very well connected, but anything is possible. The Tuna seiners had a very powerful lobby and were finally limited due to years of outcry from many rec and commercial fisherman. Whether this ever happens in Narragansett bay or not is anybody's guess. But it is possible, and legal for the state to step in if they so desire.

I beleive this is true that while the state cannot impose catch limits on a federaly managed species it can apply regulations as to what can happen where within it's own state waters. So yes, the state could do something. Anyone have something concrete on this?

NJ ousted the reduction boats 5 yrs ago an the proof has been in the puddig since.Yesterday there was a steady stream of bunker for at least 10 miles. We still have bait boats but i don't see em around as much as I usta.We basically have no chance of eliminating the bait boats.They have to much power in the form of representaion on the panel. Things have been good here yes,so they will leave well enough alone for now.In the Raritan bay waters.There is NO bunker siening in the NY side.So it can be done.

Just curious, does anybody know the economic impact of the menhaden catch for bait in RI waters?

-spence

Basically, that law is worthless, as Clammer said, this is Rhode Island.


"b) These restrictions shall in no way prevent the taking of menhaden by purse seine for bait, chum, or purposes other than fish meal reduction."

And that says it all..............

Just curious, does anybody know the economic impact of the menhaden catch for bait in RI waters?

-spence

Spence, From what I hear there is no way to tell. Since there are less than five boats in the fishery all of their catch data is confidential. If you can't find out how much they catch you can't estimate the economic impacts.