Some could argue we have been in World War Three for quite some time now. Does anyone have any thoughts as to what is going on now and the huge world wide increase in terrorism it will engender... I believe.


Look for something major to happen soon.... this is relative because to me something major is old news and ongoing. I`m dreading Nuclear of some sorts.

I'd characterize it more as a global insurgency fueled by many factors...perceived aggression towards Muslims, radicalisim, legacy colonial issues, Western policy priorities, and inibility of Islamic leaders to modernize and provide for their people as well as the communications technology revolution of the past 10 years that has flattened the Earth.

While a nuclear terror event is certainly possible, there are so many factors against it that it shouldn't be a prime concern...at least not to the average joe.

Overall I think how we're waging the 'war on terror' will in the short term do more to incite violence than help, which will undermine long-term stratagies towards democratization...Just look at Russia, Egypt, Palestine and Iran as prime examples.

Recapturing the moral high-ground and demonstrating solid International leadership will dramatically improve our ability to solve problems via peaceful means, and give us much more freedom for our military to act with impugnity when it is really necessary to preserve our national security.

-spence

Spence, not sure you responded to the Skitters post, I believe he is reffering to Israels actions the last few days. You seem to seize every opportunity to hop on that soapbox.
For me, good for them. This is not new, they have been dealing with this for 40 years, they talk tough and stand by it.
I dont believe there is a major islamic movement, i thinks its just raidicals with $ and the intent to kill. Technology (internet, pcs, cellphones) and an understanding of the global media have allowed them to gain publicity and some sense of leigitimacy. People have been killing each other for 10,000 years, we just hear it about it more now.

I'd characterize it more as a global insurgency fueled by many factors...perceived aggression towards Muslims, radicalisim, legacy colonial issues, Western policy priorities, and inibility of Islamic leaders to modernize and provide for their people as well as the communications technology revolution of the past 10 years that has flattened the Earth.

While a nuclear terror event is certainly possible, there are so many factors against it that it shouldn't be a prime concern...at least not to the average joe.

Overall I think how we're waging the 'war on terror' will in the short term do more to incite violence than help, which will undermine long-term stratagies towards democratization...Just look at Russia, Egypt, Palestine and Iran as prime examples.

Recapturing the moral high-ground and demonstrating solid International leadership will dramatically improve our ability to solve problems via peaceful means, and give us much more freedom for our military to act with impugnity when it is really necessary to preserve our national security.

-spence

Remember the meeting last month with US and Israel?... sorta secretively we said ok do it... the world and us are in a world of pain...and I don`t read much anymore. I saw this coming two months ago at least. It will lead to major major conflicts above and beyond all the major major which is long ongoing.

Bleakly yours,
Michael

Remember the meeting last month with US and Israel?... sorta secretively we said ok do it... the world and us are in a world of pain...and I don`t read much anymore. I saw this coming two months ago at least. It will lead to major major conflicts above and beyond all the major major which is long ongoing.

Bleakly yours,
Michael

Dude, rockets are regularly, randomly shot at Isreal neighborhoods, soliders were kidnapped and held for randsom.......you think Isreal is the aggressor???????? A government has no other duty that to protect its people, thats what they are doing. And no, Im not Jewish, something that I was accused of out here before...

"Hezbollah guerrillas killed seven Israeli soldiers and captured two more Wednesday, triggering Israeli airstrikes and military raids inside southern Lebanon, Israeli officials said."

Damn those nasty Jews, looking for trouble again. They should just hide in their cellars and let the Muslims do as they see fit. Somehow this must be Bushs fault......

Isreal should just go to war with the Palestinians and end this crap once and for all. Enough of Hamas and the god damn suicide bombers. Grow some balls Isreal and take them ALL out. Or it will be the same BS for another 50 years. You will never have peace with the blood thirsty murdering palastinians. It just wont happen, they dont want peace, they want dead Isrealies.

And we all know who the biggest threat in the world is today. Its radical Islam. If anyone denies this they are brain dead. You cant reason with these people, they need to be taken out and thats it. Anyone thinks you can have diplomacy with these throat slitters is crazy.

Remember the meeting last month with US and Israel?... sorta secretively we said ok do it... the world and us are in a world of pain...and I don`t read much anymore. I saw this coming two months ago at least. It will lead to major major conflicts above and beyond all the major major which is long ongoing.

Bleakly yours,
Michael

About %$%$%$%$ing time Isreal started striking the radical palistinians! The radicals need to be wiped out or nothing over there will ever change. And just so you know, Isreal targets RADICAL LEADERS with thier strikes. Your Palistinian friends prefer to strap bombs to themselve and blow up buses of innocent school children. And you have sympathy for those %$%$%$%$ing animals????

"Hezbollah guerrillas killed seven Israeli soldiers and captured two more Wednesday, triggering Israeli airstrikes and military raids inside southern Lebanon, Israeli officials said."

Damn those nasty Jews, looking for trouble again. They should just hide in their cellars and let the Muslims do as they see fit. Somehow this must be Bushs fault......

Of course, the problems in this world are ALL created by Bush and those damn Jews. Well, that what the left likes to say anyway.

Nah, radical islam and the radical Palistinians arent the problem. Its that damn George Bush and the freakin Jews.

Dont ya love the left!? :doh: Wake up you freakin morons and realize who the TRUE enemy is. ITS RADICAL ISLAM

Isreal should just go to war with the Palestinians and end this crap once and for all. Enough of Hamas and the god damn suicide bombers. Grow some balls Isreal and take them ALL out. Or it will be the same BS for another 50 years. You will never have peace with the blood thirsty murdering palastinians. It just wont happen, they dont want peace, they want dead Isrealies.

And we all know who the biggest threat in the world is today. Its radical Islam. If anyone denies this they are brain dead. You cant reason with these people, they need to be taken out and thats it. Anyone thinks you can have diplomacy with these throat slitters is crazy.


Because THAT is sane advice :fishslap:

Sure, Israel (which takes more than it dishes) should just wipe 'em all out. OK, that'll fix things. So when Arab-Israeli War 2006 goes full blown, with more and deadlier weapons systems (N.B.C.) than in previous times, hindsight will show that your advice is being right on top of it :poke: :gf: .

Israel has every right to defend itself and should but your solution is, uhh, lacking. What SHOULD happen is the disolving of Hezbollah and Hamas or at minimum demilitarizing of those factions, creating a Palestinian state (which Israel has on the table) and having the Arab countries recognize Israel. But 3000 years of conflict might not end so quickly and won't end if Israel kills 'em all and and lets Allah sort 'em out.

Grow some balls Isreal and take them ALL out. Or it will be the same BS for another 50 years.

Oh Isreal has balls...I distinctly remember them, on a couple of occasions, ringing Arrafat's doorbell w/ their tanks and asking him to come out and play....But we (The U.S.) always talked them out of it.

What SHOULD happen is the disolving of Hezbollah and Hamas or at minimum demilitarizing of those factions, creating a Palestinian state (which Israel has on the table) and having the Arab countries recognize Israel. But 3000 years of conflict might not end so quickly and won't end if Israel kills 'em all and and lets Allah sort 'em out.

:kewl: :kewl: :kewl:

How did this....Remember the meeting last month with US and Israel?... sorta secretively we said ok do it... the world and us are in a world of pain...and I don`t read much anymore. I saw this coming two months ago at least. It will lead to major major conflicts above and beyond all the major major which is long ongoing.

Bleakly yours,
Michael

All of a sudden turn him into a Palestinean Sympathiser

About %$%$%$%$ing time Isreal started striking the radical palistinians! The radicals need to be wiped out or nothing over there will ever change. And just so you know, Isreal targets RADICAL LEADERS with thier strikes. Your Palistinian friends prefer to strap bombs to themselve and blow up buses of innocent school children. And you have sympathy for those %$%$%$%$ing animals????


You have THE Most Skewed Logic I have ever seen in my life.

Really buddy? have you ever read your posts? Your pretty out there. Read some of your posts once in awhile! And why do i even care about what someone with a picture of Al Bundy as thier Avatar has to say? How can i even take you seriously looking at that!?

everyone play nice

Because THAT is sane advice :fishslap:

Sure, Israel (which takes more than it dishes) should just wipe 'em all out. OK, that'll fix things. So when Arab-Israeli War 2006 goes full blown, with more and deadlier weapons systems (N.B.C.) than in previous times, hindsight will show that your advice is being right on top of it :poke: :gf: .

Israel has every right to defend itself and should but your solution is, uhh, lacking. What SHOULD happen is the disolving of Hezbollah and Hamas or at minimum demilitarizing of those factions, creating a Palestinian state (which Israel has on the table) and having the Arab countries recognize Israel. But 3000 years of conflict might not end so quickly and won't end if Israel kills 'em all and and lets Allah sort 'em out.

Lets give diplomacy YET another chance, yeah that seems to work wonders. If you can somehow reason with the Palistinians then by all means go right ahead. I think they've shown they want nothing to do with diplomacy, all they care about are dead Jews.

Oh Oh I better take it up a notch intelectually for you "I know you are but What am I"

If you need me to explain that I can break it down for you.

Really buddy? have you ever read your posts? Your pretty out there. Read some of your posts once in awhile! And why do i even care about what someone with a picture of Al Bundy as thier Avatar has to say? How can i even take you seriously looking at that!?

everyone play nice

Playing nice sucks :laugha:

Is that avatar better....now you can Identify


And why do i even care about what someone with a picture of Al Bundy as thier Avatar has to say? How can i even take you seriously looking at that!?

Thousands of years of hate, wether it be for land, power,anothers relegion, or whatever, was, and is ongoing in that region. When children are
taught to hate from their earliest days, generation to generation, there is not much hope of peace by negotiation no matter how you cut it.

Nobody wants to give in with negotiations as this hate clouds everything.
The region always was, and will be a tinder box. Now with the proliferation of weapons of annihilation, it's just a matter of time until they're used. :(

Being every skirmish was, and is, started with rock throwing, the only answer is to collect and destroy all the rocks in the region. :)

Im going to miss Al

Is that avatar better....now you can Identify
:btu: :laughs:

Israel or the Palestinians are wrong.... what I am saying is this will lead to a much larger world wide %$%$%$%$ storm...larger then what we have now whether we are aware of it or not. :hihi:


Godbless us all.......Tiny Tim

Israel or the Palestinians are wrong.... what I am saying is this will lead to a much larger world wide %$%$%$%$ storm...larger then what we have now whether we are aware of it or not. :hihi:


Godbless us all.......Tiny Tim

Doubt it, its nothing new. Search around on CNN for a timeline of the Isreali/Palestine conflict. I've seen one out there b 4. This has been going on for years. As DF noted, Isreal sent tanks into Arafats compound and destroyed it, keeping him prosoner.

Doubt it, its nothing new. Search around on CNN for a timeline of the Isreali/Palestine conflict. I've seen one out there b 4. This has been going on for years. As DF noted, Isreal sent tanks into Arafats compound and destroyed it, keeping him prosoner.


I`m right and you are wrong :smash:

Spence, not sure you responded to the Skitters post, I believe he is reffering to Israels actions the last few days. You seem to seize every opportunity to hop on that soapbox.
Sure I did, if perhaps indirectly...the actions of the West, Isreal, the Palestenian people and neighboring Arab and Persian states are all interrelated.

-spence

since Hamas won the election Israel Military Chess Geniuses lit up...this is no longer tit for tat.... this is THE MOVE

Bombs away,
:devil2:

since Hamas won the election Israel Military Chess Geniuses lit up...this is no longer tit for tat.... this is THE MOVE
It may get worse before it get's better, but I think the hardliners are going to wake up pretty soon. What they're doing isn't scalable...

-spence

kaboom

Dude, rockets are regularly, randomly shot at Isreal neighborhoods, soliders were kidnapped and held for randsom.......you think Isreal is the aggressor???????? A government has no other duty that to protect its people, thats what they are doing. And no, Im not Jewish, something that I was accused of out here before...

Seems we hear very little about the aggression against Israel only outrage when they retaliate. Come to think about it, it's kind of like Iraq. A quick blurb about kidnapping/torture/beheading of our soldiers but shrill outrage over panties on the head of a terrorist.

Go Israel.

There's no way to justify the seemingly random terror attacks that Isreal has...

That being said, their actions have often been over the top.

An objective person looks to where the power is, and tries to stay objective.

It's all relative.

-spence

sooo, Isreal pulled out of gaza, demolished jewish settlers houses, had the miltary pull civilains from their own homes and kept EVERY promise they made.

Over the top? Maybe to their own people, when are the Palesinians going to do someting....anything, other than provoke and kill???

September 12 2005
Completion of Israel's unilateral disengagement plan. Israel removes all Jewish settlements and military equipment from the disputed territory of the Gaza Strip, ending its control of the area taken from Egypt as a result of the Six-Day War of 1967.

Take a look at this....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict_timeline#September_12_2005

notice how the outline says,,,,Isreal Complies, Isreal Withdraws, Isreal agrees...etc. the you have, Isreal responds to missle attacks, Isreal hit with Suidice bombers, etc.....
seems a little off balance,,no?

Maybe to their own people, when are the Palesinians going to do someting....anything, other than provoke and kill???
I think the important point you're missing is that for the most part the Palestenian people are completely disenfranchised.

It's not a level playing field, which contributes a lot to the use of terror...a leveling force.

The notion that Isreal's %$%$%$%$ has never stunk is pretty absurd...but as I indicated earlier...there's plenty of blame on both sides.

Looks like the situation is getting worse today...a dangerous game being played for sure.

-spence

Didnt say that, but they are at least trying, with NO support from Arab countries

Take a look at this....notice how the outline says,,,,Isreal Complies, Isreal Withdraws, Isreal agrees...etc. the you have, Isreal responds to missle attacks, Isreal hit with Suidice bombers, etc.....
seems a little off balance,,no?
Read the history from an Arab perspective and it looks quite different :usd:

-spence

I didnt read it from any persectuve, since Im not jewish nor Arab (actually I am part Lebanese).

I just dont think Isreals actions are unjustified, they have taken extreme measures (gaza pullout) for peace, they then should take extreme measures on the other end, war.

I just dont think Isreals actions are unjustified, they have taken extreme measures (gaza pullout) for peace, they then should take extreme measures on the other end, war.
I think individual actions like the Gaza pull-out need to be looked at in context. Yes, the images of the IDF pulling Jewish settlers out of their homes in Gaza were dramatic...but should they have been there in the first place?

It's not like that was a concession as much as a strategic change in position or policy.

It's a very complicated mix of issues for sure.

-spence

Spence, what ever you do for a living, its the wrong thing. You should be in Washington,DC solving the worlds problems. I have never seen one person be on the wrong side of sooooooo many isues in my life. The only thing I agree with, is the fact that this administration needs a big change. And that change is replace all the Democrats with new ones.

I think the important point you're missing is that for the most part the Palestenian people are completely disenfranchised.

It's not a level playing field, which contributes a lot to the use of terror...a leveling force.

The notion that Isreal's %$%$%$%$ has never stunk is pretty absurd...but as I indicated earlier...there's plenty of blame on both sides.

Looks like the situation is getting worse today...a dangerous game being played for sure.

-spenceIf the playing field was level, Israel would be wiped off the face of the map.

Spence, what ever you do for a living, its the wrong thing. You should be in Washington,DC solving the worlds problems. I have never seen one person be on the wrong side of sooooooo many isues in my life. The only thing I agree with, is the fact that this administration needs a big change. And that change is replace all the Democrats with new ones.
And how exactly am I on the wrong side of this issue? Simply because I put the welfare of 300 million americans ahead of 6 million Israelis?

I'd like you to let me know what side of this issue I'm on, because I don't think you really have a clue :huh: :wave:

-spence

And how exactly am I on the wrong side of this issue? Simply because I put the welfare of 300 million americans ahead of 6 million Israelis?

I'd like you to let me know what side of this issue I'm on, because I don't think you really have a clue :huh: :wave:

-spence

You seem to be blaming Isreal for everything and not putting any blame on the Palestinian thugs who start most of this, Isreal has every right to bomb the %$%$%$%$ out of Hamas and Hezballah anytime one of the groups fire rockets and kill Isreali children. I cant beleieve you are on the side of the Palestinians on this issue, You are so on the wrong side. Suporting the Palestinians and thier tacics is not much differerent than showing support for Al Qeada. They are pretty much the same in the tacics they use. This my friend, is why you are on the wrong side of this conflict. All you seem to do is rip Isreal and attempt to justfy the "Palestinian cause" Whatever the hell the damn cause is anyway.

Props to Isreal for taking action again Lebanon, if Hezbalah is storing arms and organizing murder in Isreal, i say good for Isreal for protecting its people. But i know you have a problem with Isreal going on the offesive and protecing its citizens from being slaughtered, dont you Spence?

Isreal has the right to take action, just like the US had the right to take action after our people were slaughterd on 9/11. Only in Isreal, they see mini 9/11's on a daily basis, rocket attacks, suicide bombings etc.

Suporting the Palestinians and thier tacics is not much differerent than showing support for Al Qeada. They are pretty much the same in the tacics they use. This my friend, is why you are on the wrong side of this conflict.
Skippy, your mind is in a very small box indeed :bo:

And please don't pretend to understand what my position is, because you...like Uffah don't get it.

-spence

Spence is a well read diplomat and a decent guy...give him a break :uhuh:

I never said who I thought was right or wrong...it cannot be that simple.

What I have said before and am saying now is that this recent conflagration, only one of many over numerous years, could become a catalyst for a World War of an even more pronounced and elevated stature then the one we have been living already for some years.

Its scary really.

Let us try to get along if you will....:devil2:

Spence is a well read diplomat and a decent guy...give him a break :uhuh:

Awwww shucks :blush:

I never said who I thought was right or wrong...it cannot be that simple.
Agreed. It is very complicated and there's been bad behavior on both sides...that's not a statement of parity mind you.
What I have said before and am saying now is that this recent conflagration, only one of many over numerous years, could become a catalyst for a World War of an even more pronounced and elevated stature then the one we have been living already for some years.
It's becoming more clear what Israel intends here, to drive a wedge between the various Palestenian factions. It certainly is risky though...

I think a key factor is that a broader war really doesn't benefit anyone in this situation. Israel looks to be after some incremental gain that may help stabalize the Palestenian government...if it doesn't destroy it in the process.

It's like chemotherapy :hee:

-spence

All you seem to do is rip Isreal and attempt to justfy the "Palestinian cause" Whatever the hell the damn cause is anyway.
This is a very interesting statement, I can't believe Skippy is that stupid.

Skippy, could you please elaborate?

-spence

I think the important point you're missing is that for the most part the Palestenian people are completely disenfranchised.


Sure you got the right word there Spence? If I'm not mistaken they recently used their franchise to elect a Hezbolla government.

Hamas
but its all the same.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/1.0/sect/WORLD/header.world.gif (http://www.cnn.com/WORLD)
Israel bombards Beirut amid spiraling attacks




Thursday, July 13, 2006; Posted: 12:04 p.m. EDT (16:04 GMT)

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BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- Israel's warplanes bombed Beirut's international airport and its navy blockaded Lebanon's ports in a sharp escalation of a military campaign Thursday.



Hezbollah guerrillas fired scores of rockets from Lebanon into northern Israel in the most intense bombardment in years.
Some 45 people and two soldiers have been killed inside Lebanon since Wednesday, the country's health ministry said, while the rocket attacks killed at least one woman in Israel.
Beirut's Rafik Hariri International Airport was forced to close after Israeli fighter jets hit all three of its runways, leaving huge craters that made them unusable.
Two other Lebanese airports were attacked Thursday morning, the Israel Defense Forces said.
The IDF gave no details, but Lebanese army sources said that the Rayak Air Base in the Bekaa Valley near the Syrian border had been hit as well as a small military airport in Qulayaat in northern Lebanon.
Israel said it targeted the international airport in the capital's suburbs because it was a transfer point for weapons and supplies to Hezbollah, the militant group that captured two Israeli soldiers and killed eight others in raids this week.
Lebanese Interior Minister Ahmed Fatfat called the airport strikes a "general act of war," saying they had nothing to do with Hezbollah but were instead an attack against the country's "economic interests," especially its tourism industry. All Beirut-bound flights are having to be diverted.
Lebanese Information Minister Ghazi Aridi called for a comprehensive cease-fire, saying the Lebanese government had nothing to do with the Hezbollah attacks.
After Israel's airport strike, planes began dropping leaflets warning residents of an impending attack on an area of southern Beirut where Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah is believed to live. ([URL="javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/world/2006/07/13/foster.anthony.miils.interview.on.beirut.affl','20 06/07/20');"]Watch initial reports on the runway bombings -- 6:00 (javascript:CNN_openPopup('/services/overture/cl/frameset.exclude.html','620x430','toolbar=no,locat ion=no,directories=no,status=no,menubar=no,scrollb ars=no,resizable=no,width=620,height=430')))
If such a strike happened, Hezbollah said it would attack the northern Israeli city of Haifa, where 300,000 people live.
The U.S. Navy moved a small military tug out of Haifa after the threat.
Israel: 'We mean business'

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said Thursday he fears a "regional war is mounting" with Israel's military campaigns in Lebanon and Gaza, where forces were deployed after last month's capture of an Israeli soldier.
"This is not our interest and will not bring peace and stability to the region," Abbas said, referring to "this aggression."
President Bush said all countries had a right to defend themselves butwarned Israel to take care not to "weaken" Lebanon's government.
Bush also stressed during a visit to Germany that Syria "needs to be held to account."
Hezbollah enjoys substantial backing from Syria and Iran and is considered a terrorist organization by the United States and Israel. The group holds posts in Lebanon's government.
Israeli Security Cabinet Minister Isaac Herzog said: "We are taking strong measures so that it will be clear to the Lebanese people and government ... that we mean business."
The United Nations will send a team to the Middle East to urge both sides to use restraint, a spokesman for Secretary-General Kofi Annan said Thursday.
Captives named

Israeli airstrikes were aimed at targets used by Hezbollah for storing weapons, the IDF said.
Warplanes also hit al-Manar television station because Hezbollah uses it to incite and recruit activists, the IDF said. A broadcast tower was destroyed and three people injured, but the station was able to continue broadcasting, al-Manar editor Ibrahim Moussawi said.
Israel's Cabinet authorized a "severe and harsh" response to the abduction of the two soldiers, named Thursday as Ehud Goldvasser, 31, from Nahariya, and Eldad Regev, 26, from the Haifa suburb of Kiryat Motzkin.
Hezbollah called for a prisoner exchange but, as in Gaza, Israel has rejected the call.
Hezbollah chief Nasrallah told reporters that seizing the soldiers was "our natural, only and logical right" to win freedom for Hezbollah prisoners held by Israel.
Nasrallah said the two soldiers had been taken to a place "far, far away" and that an Israeli military campaign would not win their release.
More than 70 Katyusha rockets have hit Israel in the past 24 hours, the IDF said.
Missiles critically injured one person and hurt at least 10 others in Safed, about 13 miles (20 kilometers) from the Lebanese border, which local officials said not been hit by Hezbollah rockets since 1972. (Watch the rocket's explosion and town chaos -- 1:45 (javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/world/2006/07/13/hancocks.israel.lebanon.crisis.ap','2006/07/20');))
Also in northern Israel, a woman was killed and 15 people hurt in a rocket attack in Nahariya, and at least 38 people were injured when rockets hit the Arab village of Carmiel, Israeli ambulance services said.
[I]CNN's Barbara Starr and John Vause and journalist Anthony Mills in Beirut contributed to this report.

Sure you got the right word there Spence? If I'm not mistaken they recently used their franchise to elect a Hezbolla government.
Yes, it's the right word...the elections were only recently, hence the conditional "for the most part".

And I believe there were some Hizbolla members elected along with Hamas, just not as many.

The key of course is that the people are looking for stability. I don't believe they elected Hamas as an endorsement of terrorisim, but rather Hamas was simply less corrupt than the PLO! The non-militant wings of these parties are a major provider of basic services to many people over there...

This isn't a good vs evil debate as much as some would like you to believe...fundamentally it's about humans dealing with reality, which is quite nuanced anyway you slice it. A child blown up by a homicide bomber, or an errant IDF strike doesn't really care what was motivating the violence.

-spence

lets send Jimmy Carter over there, I bet he can use some of those great diplomacy skills he used to free the US hostages from Iran to free the Israeli hostages......oh wait a minute....

lets send Jimmy Carter over there, I bet he can use some of those great diplomacy skills he used to free the US hostages from Iran to free the Israeli hostages......oh wait a minute....
Well, what goes around comes around...those hostages might have never been taken had the US not meddeled so much in the Iranian government :heybaby:

-spence

Well, what goes around comes around...those hostages might have never been taken had the US not meddeled so much in the Iranian government :heybaby:

-spence

of course, we deserved it! I wonder how many of you could have predicted Spence's response?:bl:

of course, we deserved it! I wonder how many of you could have predicted Spence's response?:bl:

I'm waiting for the "Its Bush's fault" response next. Its so predictable.

[QUOTE=Skitterpop]Spence is a well read diplomat and a decent guy...give him a break :uhuh: QUOTE]

So i cant challenge his views because he's a "decent guy"? Get real and learn how to debate. Just because someones a solid gut doesnt mean i cant challenge his views.

I'm sure Jimmy Carter's a pretty good guy too, but he's a nut when it comes to his political views!

Can you read Skip?

of course, we deserved it! I wonder how many of you could have predicted Spence's response?:bl:
Not placing blame, just trying to remain objective. There are a lot of lessons to be learned from history, and to ignore the role that our influence has had on many global events doesn't bode well for the future.

Our leaders have done a number of bad things thinking they were in the public interest at the time, some of them may have been worth it...and some not. This isn't a liberal notion, it's just reality.

-spence

Question "Do you believe in God?" Answer "No", bang your dead.

Question "Do you believe in God?" Answer "yes", Question, "Do you believe in my God?" Answer "No", bang your dead. George Carlin

Religion, one of the best and worst things ever to be. Causes more death, war, turmoil than any other one single cause. Besides oil of course.

Yes, the world is holdin on by a thread and total chaos is only a breath away. We are in tow many places where we don't belong, fighting to "right" causes that have been and will be around for the next thousand years. We know nothing of tribal and factional infighting and should not meddle in something that will never cease to be.

10% of Salvadoran nationals live and work in the US, most illegally.
20% of Mexican nationals live and work here also, along with like and higher percentages of Brazilians, Guatemalans etc. 80% of those only are here for the money and could care less about our country itself. They send thier money home, spend little here and when they die they are sent home to be buried. Time to become a more insular country and stop being the worlds top cop, administer of culture, political ideologies and religion.

Yes the world is about to go boom, war is good for the economy you know, and when it's all over and the world scene is a different place we will lick our wounds and somehow come to the realization that we were wrong and eventually tee shirts, hats, sneakers, electronics and just about everything else will carry a label made in Iran, made in Iraq made in Syria just like now going to Old Navy and buying shirts made in Viet Nam.

Carry on.

the two sides have been fighting since before the birth of Christ.
however...the UN and the EU almost always lay the blame for these things right in the lap of Isreal. its like being an older brother and having a little brother who is always causing trouble. you smack the kid down when he's doing something wrong and mom and dad tell you that its your fault for hitting him. puhlease...the terrorist groups are enabled by the left and their sympathic view points towards them, and their blantent hatred for Isreal.

in case anyone hasn't noticed, Europe is a pretty anti-semetic place these days.

Just because someones a solid gut doesnt mean i cant challenge his views.
Skippy, you're not really challenging my views...but rather spitting up
ad hominem fragments and regurgitated partisan whackery.

-spence

...the terrorist groups are enabled by the left and their sympathic view points towards them, and their blantent hatred for Isreal.
Which doesn't exactly explain why the vast majority of Jews traditionally vote Democratic now does it?

-spence

Yes the world is about to go boom, war is good for the economy you know, and when it's all over and the world scene is a different place we will lick our wounds and somehow come to the realization that we were wrong and eventually tee shirts, hats, sneakers, electronics and just about everything else will carry a label made in Iran, made in Iraq made in Syria just like now going to Old Navy and buying shirts made in Viet Nam.
A refreshing voice of reason :rtfm:

:)

-spence

Rockhoppingmike using different sign on names :scream:

And how exactly am I on the wrong side of this issue? Simply because I put the welfare of 300 million americans ahead of 6 million Israelis?

I'd like you to let me know what side of this issue I'm on, because I don't think you really have a clue :huh: :wave:

-spence You somehow think condemning Miltary action against Terrorists (which is exactly what Israel is doing) is in anyway aiding the welfare of 300 million American?

You somehow think condemning Miltary action against Terrorists (which is exactly what Israel is doing) is in anyway aiding the welfare of 300 million American?
Depends...If the Israeli actions are more punitive in nature or are disproportionate then they certainly could do more harm to the fragile situation in the reigon, which would negatively impact Americans...

Certianly our defense of some Israeli behavior over the years has dramatically fueled anti-US tension and contributed largely to 9/11. At the time some of these policy decisions may have looked to be beneficial, but with hindsight there has been a cost.

In the context of current events, do we learn from history or continue to potentially repeat the same mistakes?

-spence

jesus was jewish
satan was a palestinian


how about them Irish ?

must be St Patrick who was actually Italian

US vetoes UN resolution urging end to Israeli attacks in Gaza
Jul 13 3:50 PM US/Eastern


The United States vetoed a UN draft resolution that would have called for an end to Israeli attacks and "disproportionate use of force" in the Gaza Strip as well as for the release of a kidnapped Israeli soldier.

The Security Council resolution received 10 votes, one against from the United States with four abstentions, French Ambassador Jean-Marc de la Sabliere, the council president for July, announced.



Explaining his negative vote, US Ambassador John Bolton described the text as "unbalanced" and was "not only untimely but also outmoded" because of the attacks against Israel by Lebanese Hezbollah militants and UN chief Kofi Annan's decision to send a crisis team to the region.

He said adoption of the resolution would have exacerbated tensions in the region and would have undermined "our vision of two democratic states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security."

The United States, Israel's staunchest ally, last used its veto in the Security Council in October 2004, to block a similar draft demanding that Israel end all military operations in northern Gaza and withdraw from the area.


hmm...seems i said something to this effect a little earlier today...


the UN and the EU almost always lay the blame for these things right in the lap of Isreal. its like being an older brother and having a little brother who is always causing trouble. you smack the kid down when he's doing something wrong and mom and dad tell you that its your fault for hitting him.

hmm...seems i said something to this effect a little earlier today...
Not really, the resolution is saying that Israel's actions are potentially reckless and may cause unecessary instability...not that they are entirely to blame for the situation.

Regardless, the US needs to step in here and show some leadership. Freaking planet is going to hell in a handbasket and Bush is running blind :hs:

-spence

Spence:

!!

:bshake: :bshake: :bshake:

-spence

Spence:

Well, what goes around comes around...those hostages might have never been taken had the US not meddeled so much in the Iranian government :heybaby:

-spence
Yep those hostages deserved it alright.

Yep those hostages deserved it alright.
Here ya go...

http://www.rhlschool.com/reading.htm

-spence

Here ya go...

http://www.rhlschool.com/reading.htm

-spence


Thanks for that but this seems more relevant to your post


http://blameamerica.com/

This is the lamest segue into your ultimate agenda you have ever come up with. Although it took longer than it ususally does, your undying blind hatred for the man can never really be contained. I knew it would only be another post or two until you were back in lockstep with the "party."




"""[QUOTE=spence]Not really, the resolution is saying that Israel's actions are potentially reckless and may cause unecessary instability...not that they are entirely to blame for the situation.

Regardless, the US needs to step in here and show some leadership. Freaking planet is going to hell in a handbasket and Bush is running blind :hs: """




lol...talk about regurgitated partisan whackery.:bl2:

The beauty of this situation is the liberals are attempting to weigh in on a subject that they can't understand at home in the states. The power of religion. Watching liberals trying understand religion, faith, fanaticism is like watching a Greek tragedy. Religion is their party's biggest tragic flaw on the homefront. Its the reason they lost the last two elections and will lose the next one as well. But there they are everyday espousing their knowledge about religious conflicts that have been around since the begining of time.

.

Regardless, the US needs to step in here and show some leadership. Freaking planet is going to hell in a handbasket and Bush is running blind :hs:

-spence

Spence, isnt that what you constantly refer to as US "meddling"?

Not really, the resolution is saying that Israel's actions are potentially reckless and may cause unecessary instability...not that they are entirely to blame for the situation.

Regardless, the US needs to step in here and show some leadership. Freaking planet is going to hell in a handbasket and Bush is running blind :hs:

-spence

Souinds like ad hominem fragments and regurgitated partisan whackery.

Most of this thread is not discussion but oneupmanship and personal attacks....myself included :smokin:


I have never wondered why different countries with different religions or politics could`nt get along....seeing how most families cannot attain a sensible peace on such a lesser scale.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If this conflict in the Middle East gets to where Iran and Syria are actively involved that will be a hurricane of destruction.

Thanks for that but this seems more relevant to your post


http://blameamerica.com/
Oh yes, because I'm objective I must hate America...how nice :rolleyes:

Typically I only assign infallibility to gods and kings, but if you think you're deserving then so be it.

-spence

This is the lamest segue into your ultimate agenda you have ever come up with. Although it took longer than it ususally does, your undying blind hatred for the man can never really be contained. I knew it would only be another post or two until you were back in lockstep with the "party."
Bronko, what exactly is my "ultimate agenda"?

And please don't bother me with the "hate Bush" mantra...it's just a lame excuse to avoid real policy failings under the current Adminitration.

I love it...under this Administration the size of the Federal Government is out of control, we have record deficits, a complete failure to plan for looming energy and educational crisis, the influence of special interests has doubled, our Constitution is under attack and our government becomes more authoritarian every moment, we've invested hundreds of billions of our tax money and thousands of US lives for an ill-planned and reckless war that's weakened our armed forces, our great country has completely lost our international moral high-ground and neutered our ability to influence geopolitical events...

And Bronko thinks I simply have a partisan personality problem with George W. Bush!!!

Wake up.

The beauty of this situation is the liberals are attempting to weigh in on a subject that they can't understand at home in the states. The power of religion. Watching liberals trying understand religion, faith, fanaticism is like watching a Greek tragedy. Religion is their party's biggest tragic flaw on the homefront. Its the reason they lost the last two elections and will lose the next one as well. But there they are everyday espousing their knowledge about religious conflicts that have been around since the begining of time.
Did ya hear this on Hannity?

-spence

Spence, isnt that what you constantly refer to as US "meddling"?
No. Open diplomacy isn't the same as aiding anti-communist coups or proping up sympathetic and brutal regimes.

-spence

Most of this thread is not discussion but oneupmanship and personal attacks....myself included :smokin:


I have never wondered why different countries with different religions or politics could`nt get along....seeing how most families cannot attain a sensible peace on such a lesser scale.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If this conflict in the Middle East gets to where Iran and Syria are actively involved that will be a hurricane of destruction.




I know my posts are most DEFINITELY not personal. I am an independent conservative. I am having beers tonight with a Bush supporter and two raging democratic liberals... I like nothing more than debating and the free flow of ideas. I generally do less of it during the fishing season, but sometimes with hot-button issues I can't resist. Spence's posts are always well though out and insightful, the guy knows his stuff. He is clearly wrong.... but intelligent and eloquent nonetheless.:wavey:

Bronko, what exactly is my "ultimate agenda"?

And please don't bother me with the "hate Bush" mantra...it's just a lame excuse to avoid real policy failings under the current Adminitration.


Did ya hear this on Hannity?

-spence


100% my own words. I never watch the Hannity/Carlson/Graham/Severin crowd. They are as brutal as the Bill Mahers and James Carvilles of the world. I just read a lot.:D

Spence's posts are always well thought out and insightful, the guy knows his stuff. He is clearly right but I`ll be damned if I will agree with him.... he is also very well dressed, intelligent, and eloquent. :gu:

I`m glad you said that :angel:

Spence's posts are always well though out and insightful, the guy knows his stuff. He is clearly wrong.... but intelligent and eloquent nonetheless.:wavey:
To be honest I think you're taking the easy road and applying lame stereotypes to my positions where they don't belong. Clearly from your posts you don't understand where I sit.

There really are few pure liberal vs conservative arguments, it's all very nuanced. The pathetic level of debate in this country is causing people to ignore the nuance and apply black and white rules to very complex problems. This doesn't work in business, and it shouldn't be tolerated in politics, at least not if we want an effective government.

Would you think it fair if I labeled you a greedy authoritarian warmonger simply because you supported the Administration and the war in Iraq?

-spence

Oh yes, because I'm objective I must hate America...how nice :rolleyes:

Typically I only assign infallibility to gods and kings, but if you think you're deserving then so be it.

-spence

Hate America? Your words not mine.
Here ya go http://www.rhlschool.com/reading.htm

It's not a hate thing its a blame thing. Typical of the Left it seems you start with the assumption that America is first to blame for any international strife and then begin an analytical process from there. Unless of course in the case a Republican administration is in power then the process remains frozen at blame America first.

Is this thread about our views or whats going on over there?

Typical of the Left it seems you start with the assumption that America is first to blame for any international strife and then begin an analytical process from there. Unless of course in the case a Republican administration is in power then the process remains frozen at blame America first.
This really has nothing to do with Democrats and Republicans.

The Left was against Clinton for his support of globalization and free trade.

It has everything to do with the notion that because America does something it must be good or right. The believe that your own %$%$%$%$ doesn't stink...

But it's precisely the awareness that our tremendous influence in the world can in fact do great harm that has afforded our country so much success. Certainly this has been forgotten at times, and regardless of our intentions the lessons shouldn't be ignored.

It's not about blame, it's about reality.

-spence

I truly think this has NOTHING to do with the US. These are Isreals actions and not ours.
But, Hezzballoh is a terrorist organization and if Isreal wipes them out, I think its good. I am not for war, I am against it. but my entire life I have heard "Mid East Peace Talks" 100 times, with NO true progress. WHat has diplomacy resolved? Nothing. We could not negotiate with the Nazis on genocide, they needed to be erradicated. i think the same holds true for islamicterrorism. The concept that the US should be lead this diplomtic effort and over time our enemies will become our friends, holds no water, we have in the past (carter/clinton peace talks) and it got us and the region no where.

To be honest I think you're taking the easy road and applying lame stereotypes to my positions where they don't belong. Clearly from your posts you don't understand where I sit.

There really are few pure liberal vs conservative arguments, it's all very nuanced. The pathetic level of debate in this country is causing people to ignore the nuance and apply black and white rules to very complex problems. This doesn't work in business, and it shouldn't be tolerated in politics, at least not if we want an effective government.

Would you think it fair if I labeled you a greedy authoritarian warmonger simply because you supported the Administration and the war in Iraq?

-spence


I just got an invite to fish Boston Harbor at noon with a client. Although the back and forth was fun, I have to see about a fish.

I truly think this has NOTHING to do with the US. These are Isreals actions and not ours.
The US is the only nation standing behind Israel on this, we are directly endorsing their behavior. In the eyes of the muslim world there is little difference between the US and Israel.

But, Hezzballoh is a terrorist organization and if Isreal wipes them out, I think its good.
The issue is the means not the ends. I don't think anyone believes Israel can eliminate the threat of Hizbolla by squeezing Lebanon as the problem is much broader.

In the process there's a lot of risk that this could explode into something much bigger. That is the issue...

I am not for war, I am against it. but my entire life I have heard "Mid East Peace Talks" 100 times, with NO true progress.
That's a good point. The bigger problem has been that the palestenians are looking for parity, and Israel doesn't really want to give it. The Israelis are looking for security and the Palestenians have been unwilling (or unable) to provide it.

But again, it's a bigger issue than just the two people...and that's the problem. The US has used our UN veto repeatedly to hide Israeli actions that most people would think unreasonable or illegal. At the same time neighboring Arab and Persian states have used the Palestenians in a proxy war vs Jewish and Western interests.

Personally I think a third party solution is the only way...but...

-spence

Could be, but I'm not sure how an impartial 3rd party can be....eskimos?

Could be, but I'm not sure how an impartial 3rd party can be....eskimos?

It was a hundred de-grees below ze-ro

:laugha:

-spence

If these people only spent as much time talking about thier problem as you guys have they might make headway.

If these people only spent as much time talking about thier problem as you guys have they might make headway.

:hihi:
truth is we're no closer at coming to an answer either!

Spence is right, the US needs to do much more about the current situation with Isreal. We need to say to the entire world that the US Supports Isreal 100% and send all the weapons Isreal needs to wipe out those murdering Hamas and Hezballa thugs. Its thats simple, the war has started and there's no turning back, you either support Isreal and them defending thier people, or you support Hamas and Hezballah. I know what side i'm on.

Anyone notice how quick it took for the UN to condem Isreal? Yet the UN refuses to condem North Korea and Iran? Or even freakin Hamas or Hezballa for that matter. Its ALL Isreal fault according to the UN. Just goes to show how useless the UN are.

Thank God the US supports Isreal 100% while they defend their homeland from murderous terroists. Sadly the UN just doesnt care if Isreal gets wiped off the map....

I have the answer!! Spence just likes shoveling %$%$%$%$ into the fan to see where the spots land!! Spence is what you call an educated CLOWN!!!

Anyone notice how quick it took for the UN to condem Isreal? Yet the UN refuses to condem North Korea and Iran? .

good point skip, its true.

Here is a good editorial which I agree with
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/435068p-366373c.html

another good read:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/434809p-366369c.html

I read a great book a few years ago about a huge battle that took place in Vietnam in 1965. The gist of the whole story was how unbeatable the North Vietnamese Army was under the command of General Giap. One thing that I gleaned and has stuck with me was the question, "how can you beat an army that has been at war for seven hundred years and the soldiers live in the jungle on a handful of rice a day?" In a different way but in the same regard meant in the book about the Vietnam war the same can be said for the desert dwellers of the middle east and thier war of a couple of thousand years. Some of these people know no other way of life, other than conflict. And they never have any expectation of living any other way!

Thank God the US supports Isreal 100% while they defend their homeland from murderous terroists.
Too bad even we don't, eh?

The State Department is urging restraint and even Bush is asking Israel to minimize collateral damage.

The problem is a bit more complicated than a steamlined "kill 'em all" approach.

-spence

I read a great book a few years ago about a huge battle that took place in Vietnam in 1965. The gist of the whole story was how unbeatable the North Vietnamese Army was under the command of General Giap. One thing that I gleaned and has stuck with me was the question, "how can you beat an army that has been at war for seven hundred years and the soldiers live in the jungle on a handful of rice a day?" In a different way but in the same regard meant in the book about the Vietnam war the same can be said for the desert dwellers of the middle east and thier war of a couple of thousand years. Some of these people know no other way of life, other than conflict. And they never have any expectation of living any other way!
Good point...for the most part you can't stop this kind of war through force alone.

Unfortunately for Uffah!! the liberal squishy stuff like women's rights, poverty and free trade are some of the most powerful issues that can be used to fight terrorisim.

-spence

I am not anti Israel just posting someone elses article to show how complex the situation is in a world view...Skittah

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
+Israel: A Terrorist Success Story


by Rob Miller, Democratic Socialist Party of Australia,
http://www.dsp.org.au (http://www.dsp.org.au/)


If there was an Academy Awards ceremony for terrorism, Israel would sweep every category—and every acceptance speech would have to thank the government of the United States, whose generous support has made Israel the most successful terrorist state in the world.
How do you measure the success of terrorism? Is it by the numbers of civilians killed, maimed and terrorized or the level of disruption and fear brought to people’s daily lives? Israel scores very highly on both these counts.
Israel has its own special way of recognizing the achievements of its great terrorists—by electing them its prime minister. There are no less than three Israeli prime ministers who have long terrorist histories.

Israel has its own special way of recognizing the achievements of its great terrorists—by electing them its prime minister.
The current prime minister, Ariel Sharon, cemented his place in the hall of fame with his leading role in the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, including the massacres by Israeli-backed militias in the Palestinian refugee camps of Sabra and Shatilla. Earlier in his Israeli army career Sharon was responsible for the slaughter of 69 civilians in the Qibya village in Jordanian-controlled territory in 1953.
The Israeli prime minister at the time of the 1982 invasion, Menachem Begin, was a leader of the Irgun, one of the main terrorist groups in the Zionist movement. In the 1930s and 1940s the Zionists were trying to establish the Israeli state in what was then British-occupied Palestine.
In 1937, the Irgun launched a terror campaign against Palestinian civilians, setting off bombs in markets and attacking buses. In one attack on the Haifa fruit market 74 Arabs were killed and 129 wounded. In 1946, the Irgun set off a bomb in the King David Hotel in Jerusalem killing about 100 Arab, British and Jewish victims.
Another Israeli prime minister, Yitzhak Shamir, started his career in this same period as a leader of the Zionist terrorist group, the Stern gang. The Stern gang was responsible for the assassination of the UN mediator in Palestine, Count Folke Bernadotte, and a French UN observer in September 1948.
Begin and Shamir both went on to play a crucial role in the terrorist activities carried out during the 1948 war.
“Ethnic Cleansing”
Ethnic cleansing was always going to be essential to achieving the Zionist movement’s aim of creating a Jewish state in Palestine. This movement sought to escape the oppression suffered by Jewish minorities throughout history by setting up a state controlled exclusively by Jews, ruling over a country in which Jews were the majority. The process of creating such a state in Palestine would inevitably involve systematic discrimination against the non-Jewish people of Palestine.
Through a combination of lobbying, military force and terrorist activity the Zionist movement was able to win the support of the US and other powerful nations for a UN partition plan which would create a Jewish state in Palestine. The 1947 UN partition plan violated the right of the Arabic-speaking Palestinian people to national self-determination, as it denied them the opportunity to vote on whether or not they agreed to the UN plan to hand over a part of their national homeland to a colonial-settler state.

Ethnic cleansing was always going to be essential to achieving the Zionist movement’s aim of creating a Jewish state…
The UN plan was also grossly unfair in that it granted the 30% of the population who were Jewish 54% of the land of Palestine, including the most fertile areas. Despite the obvious bias of the UN plan in favor of Zionism, it did not resolve the “Arab question.”
In the area allocated to the Jewish state, Jews only barely outnumbered Palestinians (498,000 Jews to 497,000 Palestinians) and at this time the Zionist settlers only owned 6% of the land.
The solution was ethnic cleansing. By waging a war of terror against the civilian Palestinian population, the Zionists were able to occupy 81% of the total area of Palestine by the end of the 1948 war.
On April 9, 1948, the Irgun and the Stern gang attacked the village of Deir Yasseen and massacred 120 villagers. To ensure that the massacre had maximum effect in forcing Palestinians to flee, the terrorist forces raped women and girls, butchered infants and cut open the womb of a nine-months pregnant woman.
This was just one of a number of massacres that terrorized more than 90% of the Palestinian population into fleeing their homes.
After forcing the Palestinian population to flee the villages, the Israeli forces would often blow up the houses to ensure the residents had nothing to return to. To reinforce the point, the Israeli authorities then “legally” confiscated the homes, fields and property of all Palestinians who had not been in their “regular place of residence” on September 1, 1948.
Today there are more than 3.7 million Palestinian refugees registered by the UN and about another 2 million who are not registered. Palestinian refugees are not allowed to return, despite the fact that under international law they have every right to. UN resolution 194, passed in 1948, explicitly affirms this right—but Israel’s defiance of this resolution goes unpunished by the UN and the US.
While the Palestinian victims of Israeli terrorism are left to rot in refugee camps, Israel struts the world stage claiming to be a democracy. This Israeli form of “democracy” is based on driving out more than half the indigenous population of the country and thereby denying their right to participate in any aspect of society.
Meir Kahane, one of Israel’s best known civilian terrorists, openly acknowledged this fact. According to Kahane: “There is no question of setting up democracy in Israel because democracy means equal rights for all, irrespective of racial or religious origins. You can’t, on the one hand, want a Jewish state and, at the same time, give non-Jews the right to become a majority.”
Denying the right of Palestinian refugees to return is therefore essential to maintaining Israeli “democracy.”
Hostage Taking
Hollywood has produced numerous films in which “evil terrorists,” usually Arabs, take innocent civilians, usually Americans, hostage and make demands that must be met before the hostages are released.
We all know the script: the ruthless hijackers kill a hostage to show they mean business, the US government refuses to negotiate with terrorists, one of the hostages is a Special Forces-trained superhero who leads the fight against the hijackers, eventually killing them all and setting the hostages free.
These “Hollywood principles” generally reflect the public stance of the US government in relation to terrorism. This tough “no negotiations, blow the terrorists away” stance was exactly that taken by the US and its allies in relation to the Taliban’s offer to negotiate an international trial for bin Laden.
Do these principles apply to Israel?
Israel’s 1948 acquisition of territory by force went unpunished. No doubt encouraged by this success, in 1967 Israel invaded the rest of Palestine and parts of Egypt and Syria, taking millions of civilians hostage. Israel demanded that its “right to exist” be recognized before it would withdraw and release the hostages. The passing of UN Security Council resolution 242 calling on Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories had no effect.
In 1973, Egypt and Syria took military action to attempt to free their citizens and territory held hostage by Israel, exercising their right to self-defense under international law. The US response was to provide Israel with all the emergency military aid it needed to defeat Egypt and Syria.
During the 1982 invasion of Lebanon the civilian toll from the terrorist activities of the Israeli army was 12,000 killed, 40,000 wounded, 300,000 homeless.
Over the course of the invasion the Israeli army used a range of terror weapons on civilians including cluster bombs and phosphorous bombs and shells. The use of phosphorous bombs and shells for military objectives is banned under the 1980 UN Geneva convention.
This description of their effect by journalist Robert Fisk explains why: “Dr. Shamaa found that the two five-day old twins had already died but they were still on fire. ‘I had to take the babies and put them in buckets of water to put out the flames,’ she said. ‘When I took them out half an hour later they were still burning.’”
The Israeli army entrusted the dirtiest work of the invasion to their right-wing Lebanese allies, the Phalangists. On September 15, 1982, the Israeli army sealed the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps in West Beirut and Israeli defense minister Ariel Sharon authorized a unit of 150 Phalangists to enter the camps.
The Phalangists proceeded to slaughter at least 1000 Palestinian and Lebanese civilians over a two-day period while the Israeli army looked on.
Just because Israel is the most successful terrorist state in the world does not mean there is no role for Israeli civilians in carrying out terrorist acts.
On February 25, 1994, Barukh Goldstein, an Israeli settler, massacred around 50 Palestinian worshippers at the Ibrahimi mosque in Hebron. Goldstein was a well-known leader of Kach, an extreme right-wing Zionist organization.
Wearing a military uniform he entered the mosque and emptied two clips of a machine gun into Muslim worshippers. In the two weeks following the massacre, the Israeli army continued Goldstein’s work by killing another 30 Palestinians.

For the past 34 years Israeli soldiers have held up Palestinian civilians at gunpoint on a daily basis.
While fanatical settlers such as Goldstein are directly involved in terrorizing Palestinian civilians, it is the “ordinary” Israeli settlers who provide a cover and excuse for Israeli state terrorism and further ethnic cleansing.
Protecting these Israeli civilians provides an excuse for the Israeli army to station large numbers of troops in the Palestinian territories. The land on which these illegal settlements are built, and the “security zones” around them, is confiscated from Palestinians. To ensure the settlers can travel freely, “Israeli-only” roads have been built which divide the Palestinian territories and have required the confiscation of even more Palestinian land.
While renowned for its large-scale atrocities, Israel combines this with smaller-scale daily terrorism, which has the greatest impact. For the past 34 years Israeli soldiers have held up Palestinian civilians at gunpoint on a daily basis.
For Palestinians, the people who may kill them are not invisible; they are right in front of them every day pointing automatic weapons at them as they go about their daily business. They are the Israeli soldiers at the checkpoints, who may open fire at a suspicious movement, and the armed settlers, many of whom believe Palestinians should be expelled at gunpoint.
This is not an abstract fear, as most Palestinians have a close relative who has been killed or wounded by the Israeli army or have had their homes blown up or bulldozed by the Israelis as punishment for resisting the occupation.
According to Amnesty International, 2650 Palestinian houses were destroyed by Israel between 1987 and 2000.
The support of the US government has been crucial to Israel’s terrorist success. The US continues to provide Israel with massive levels of military and non-military aid: $US3 billion in 1997 alone and a total $US74 billion since 1949.
With the continuing support of the US government, Israel’s position in terrorism’s number one spot looks secure for some time. On the same day that the Israeli army continued its ethnic cleansing program by demolishing 18 Palestinian houses in Gaza, the US called on Palestinians to stop their violence and crack down on terrorism so that “negotiations” with Israel can continue.



Originally published in Green Left Weekly, Australian socialist newspaper. Visit http://www.greenleft.org.au (http://www.greenleft.org.au/).

:lurk:

I think the website from wich that article came from says it all....greenleft.org!

Its the same extreme left view point we see in this country. You know, Isreal is the terroist nation and those sweet, kind Palestinian folks just want to live in peace and not harm anyone. Of course, they never mention Hamas and Hezzbalah raising thier kids to hate and kill jews, to strap bombs on themselves and blow up bus loads of Isreali children.

When Isreal strikes, they go after military targets only, and targets of stategic importance, like the Airport in Beiruit, this way no weapons can be flown in or out. Hamas and Hezzballah DIRECTLY TARGET CHILDREN AND INNOCENTS. And thats all you need to know. They are total scum bags and thank god Isreal is finally fed up with thier Bull%$%$%$%$ and taking some serious action. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

God bless Isreal, and those Hamas and Hezzbala pricks can all rot in hell and die a slow death for all i care. They're all scum and should be treated as such. Diplomacy has failed for years, Its not going to work, if Isreal thinks this is the only way to protect its people then god bless them, take out the thugs.

YOU CANT HAVE DIPLOMACY WITH PEOPLE WHO ONLY WANT TO SEE YOU DEAD! Its sounds all warm and fuzzy to think diplomacy can happen, but it cant, and it wont. We all know this, who are we kidding?

How freakin hard is that for Liberals to understand!?!?! Hamas and Hezzbalah dont want peace, they only want dead Jews. Wake up you brain dead liberals.

those are some intersting points from a socialist that lives on an island and whose country has some of the most stringent immigrant and vistor screenings in the world. What worries does Austrailia have?

The US is the only nation standing behind Israel on this, we are directly endorsing their behavior. In the eyes of the muslim world there is little difference between the US and Israel. -spence

So we should'nt support Isreal trying to protect thier people from death and destruction? The way people think in the world today is quite scary and mindbogling. Everyone condems Isreal, yet no one will condem North Korea or Iran. The world is %$%$%$%$ed up. I guess the world just hates Jews and Isreal :( After what the Jewish people went through Sixty plus years ago, the world doesnt even have the courage to stand behind them and support them for trying to keep thier people safe. :( The world supports terroists more than it does a country defending its people from death and destruction. Its really sad to watch. :(

So we should'nt support Isreal trying to protect thier people from death and destruction?
No Skippy that's not the issue.

You seem to have a very blanket view of the situation. Either Israel is always right, or always wrong...

That's just not how the world works.

-spence

No Skippy that's not the issue.

You seem to have a very blanket view of the situation. Either Israel is always right, or always wrong...

That's just not how the world works.

-spence

In this case Isreal is right.... They're doing what needs to be done

They're doing what needs to be done
Causing global instability?

Checked the price of oil today Skippy???

-spence

http://rrwr.blogspot.com/



:devil2:

Causing global instability?

Checked the price of oil today Skippy???

-spence

Ok, so we should let Isreal get slaughtered just so you can save a buck on your gas? Thats really nice of you.

What has diplomacy settled over the past decade or two? Nothing, Isrealis are still getting slaughtered and now they've had enough. We here in the US would do the same if we were in thier situation. I should hope so anyway, i'd hate to have a president affter say 9/11, sit back and do nothing just so Americans can save 50 cents a gallon on gas. Im sorry but thats insane

http://rrwr.blogspot.com/



:devil2:

bla bla bla... Sorry if my support of Isreal being able to defend its self makes me a right wing nut. Are you having a cookout with your good friends Hezzbalah this weekend? Your tone suggests you take the opposite view of mine, wich i can only believe meens you take the side of Hezbalah right? Please tell me who's side your on, so i dont sit here and believe you support Hezbala.

Isreal or Hezzbala? You and Spence tell me who's side your on right now? God i hope not the side many of us on this board think.....Please prove us wrong!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

:rotf2:..... :smash:..... :rotf2: .....:spin: .....:fishslap:...... :hihi:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

:rotf2:..... :smash:..... :rotf2: .....:spin: .....:fishslap:...... :hihi:

Nice response, way to dodge the question i asked ya.....Be a man, and tell me who's side your on. Grow some balls and tell us how you feel. You might not like my position, but unlike you, i have no shame in statiing my views. You on the other hand, cant answer a simple question.

You`re insane....pick a side??? My posts are about whats going on in the world....not about who is right or wrong.You only deserve the monkey picture.
And.......I`ve had balls since I was born....long before you.

Buh Bye :wave:

Thorazine


Pronounced: THOR-ah-zeen
Generic name: Chlorpromazine
Why is this drug prescribed?

Return to top (http://www.healthsquare.com/newrx/tho1441.htm#TOP)

Thorazine is used for the treatment of schizophrenia (severe disruptions in thought and perception). It is also prescribed for the short-term treatment of severe behavioral disorders in children, including explosive hyperactivity and combativeness; and for the hyperenergetic phase of manic-depressive illness (severely exaggerated moods).

Skitter...you're just realizing this now?

If Israel jumped off a cliff, Skippy wouldn't be far behind :laugha:

What's pathetic is how these issues turn people like Skippy into America haters out to divide the country because they're too weak to address the real issues.

-spence

Interesting how some people can choose to remain neutral when a friend of America is fighting a sworn enemy of America.

Interesting how some people can choose to remain neutral when a friend of America is fighting a sworn enemy of America.
The reality is, this logic contributed much to 9/11.

I don't think we should remain neutral at all...in fact I think we need to stick our nose right in the middle of things.

-spence

I'd also add, AGAIN that the US State Department us asking for restraint and that even President Bush is urging Israel to minimize casualties in their actions...

If would seem that not only the UN, EU, Russia, China and Arab League but also our own White House doesn't share your opinion.

-spence

I'd also add, AGAIN that the US State Department us asking for restraint and that even President Bush is urging Israel to minimize casualties in their actions...

If would seem that not only the UN, EU, Russia, China and Arab League but also our own White House doesn't share your opinion.

-spence

I believe the president was quoted as saying Isreal should do its best to minimize "civilian" casulaties. He's all for taking out hezballa. And of course we dont want civilians killed, but sadly in war that happens. Especially when the terroists your after are hiding in neiborhoods were innocents reside.

Now your friends Hezballa ONLY target innocents, yet the world says little to condem them. They only care about ripping Isreal.

The reality is, this logic contributed much to 9/11.

I don't think we should remain neutral at all...in fact I think we need to stick our nose right in the middle of things.

-spence

Yeah lets get in the middle and help Isreal fight thier war on terror. We are at war against terror, so is Isreal, so we need to stick together in this fight. Of course many seem to wanna reason with the terrosts, but not me, only insane folks think they can reason with throat slitters.

You`re insane....pick a side??? My posts are about whats going on in the world....not about who is right or wrong.You only deserve the monkey picture.
And.......I`ve had balls since I was born....long before you.

Buh Bye :wave:

Again you showed you have zero balls, you just cant choose between a clear choice of good vs. evil. You prob wouldnt have chosen sides in WWII either.

Grow a pair and take a stance, its really not that hard.

Interesting how some people can choose to remain neutral when a friend of America is fighting a sworn enemy of America.

Thats how liberals think....sad but true, they have no interest in helping one of Americas best friends and allies in thier time of extreme crisis. If we dont help Isreal now, we better not expect them to help us one bit in the future. Why the hell would they if we turn our backs on em now?

To be honest Skippy, given that you represent the irrational and insane...no, I'm not on your side :doh: :hihi:

-spence

Again you showed you have zero balls, you just cant choose between a clear choice of good vs. evil. You prob wouldnt have chosen sides in WWII either.

Grow a pair and take a stance, its really not that hard.



I love you Skip

It is interesting how this entire chat/posting is taking place between guys whose screen names begin with the letter S. Must be freudian or some other chit! :hidin:

I`m done....I`m ashamed of myself and apologize to everyone. :bl2:

:btu: :hidin: :wave:


I love reading everything all of you guys post.:thanks:

To be honest Skippy, given that you represent the irrational and insane...no, I'm not on your side :doh: :hihi:

-spence

Nice to here your on the side of the terroists. You should be very proud. And your calling me insane? Do you support Al Queda too? :conf:

I love you Skip

Another great post with nothing to add to this discussion. Just admit like Spence just did, that your not on the side of Isreal, there for you side with the terroist organization. You guys have some serious issues.

But i'm the insane one for supporting one of our best allies? :doh:

Skip Skip Skip


Here it is you truth hound.....

I am on the side of God, World Peace, Striped Bass, and good coffee.

You should have come to the Hezbollah / Israel cookout last night at Spence`s....everyone missed you....we even had a Rabbi there to bless the hotdogs.Only bad note of the evening was some terrorist put non fat mayo in the potato salad.

Only bad note of the evening was some terrorist put non fat mayo in the potato salad.
:jump:

That just made my day...

-spence

Nice to here your on the side of the terroists.
No Skippy, I'm on the side of the rational...

You're on the side of the terrorists, the irrational side.

-spence

No Skippy, I'm on the side of the rational...

You're on the side of the terrorists, the irrational side.

-spence

I dont support Hezballa and Hamas like you seem too...You just made it clear by your above comment that because i support Isreal i support terroism, wich means you believe Isreal are the true terroists. Do you believe the United States military are a bunch of terroists too? Judging by your twisted logic you must....

I dont support Hezballa and Hamas like you seem too...You just made it clear by your above comment that because i support Isreal i support terroism, wich means you believe Isreal are the true terroists. Do you believe the United States military are a bunch of terroists too? Judging by your twisted logic you must....
This post is as knotted up as my Abu casting Bombers into a 20 kt wind.

Take a breather and relax for a bit.

-spence

It seems again spence has starter a subject that he thought he was superior in, and is now looking for a way to get out of it!! Like I said before "An educated Clown"!!!

It seems again spence has starter a subject that he thought he was superior in, and is now looking for a way to get out of it!!
Sounds like you neither know or understand me then :)

Perhaps you could make a statement of substance rather than just call me names?

-spence

Anyone notice how quick it took for the UN to condem Isreal? Yet the UN refuses to condem North Korea
Skippy, just in...are you watching the news?!?!?!?

UNITED NATIONS - The U.N. Security Council voted unanimously Saturday to impose limited sanctions on North Korea for its recent missile tests, and demanded that the reclusive communist nation suspend its ballistic missile program. North Korea immediately rejected the resolution and vowed to continue missile launches.

-spence

http://web.morons.org/



For all of us :love:

http://web.morons.org/



For all of us :love:

The beauty of the Internet, you can always find others who support insane ideology.

Skippy, just in...are you watching the news?!?!?!?

UNITED NATIONS - The U.N. Security Council voted unanimously Saturday to impose limited sanctions on North Korea for its recent missile tests, and demanded that the reclusive communist nation suspend its ballistic missile program. North Korea immediately rejected the resolution and vowed to continue missile launches.

-spence

Its about time, it took 'em long enough! We'll see what the UN does when NK launches a few more missles. My guess is nothing, like they usually do.

But my earlier statement still stands, a day after Isreal launched attacks in thier defense they get ripped apart by everyone. It took em over a week to condem NK wich only launched missles to scare the world and flex its muscles. And have they said much about Iran or Hezballa recently? Nope, just some good ol' fashion Isreal bashing!

Hatred spawning hatred.....and both sides say it is in the name of God....can you imagine what He/She must be thinking now........

Hatred spawning hatred.....and both sides say it is in the name of God....can you imagine what He/She must be thinking now........

if there even is one :hihi: :hidin:

Hatred spawning hatred.....and both sides say it is in the name of God....can you imagine what He/She must be thinking now........

Seems to be missing

Humus anyone?

But my earlier statement still stands, a day after Isreal launched attacks in thier defense they get ripped apart by everyone. It took em over a week to condem NK wich only launched missles to scare the world and flex its muscles. And have they said much about Iran or Hezballa recently? Nope, just some good ol' fashion Isreal bashing!
Do you even understand the context for the initial Israeli actions?

-spence

Hatred spawning hatred.....and both sides say it is in the name of God....can you imagine what He/She must be thinking now........

Name of God? Maybe for the screwballs in Hezballa, but for Isreal its to protect thier damn people from slaughter. I guess in your world thats a bad thing? But how by Isreal defending themslelves are they acting in the name of God??

Thats like saying we acted in the name of God when we invaded Afganastan, be we all know it was becuase Al Qeada slaughtered our people, and we went after 'em. Whats the difference in the two? Nothing! Our actions, and Isreals, were taken to protect the people of both countries. Its thats simple. Nothing to do with God, only the Muslim fanatics wage terror for their so called God. You cant compare us to them, your nuts if you think that.

Well, Isreal launch a series of attacks which were targeted the Hezbullah Group if I'm correct which killed many civilians and about 12 Isrealians solidiers lost for the cause of 2 soldiers being kidnapped. All in all I guess it's a fair trade off the way the world is.

Bush "supports" Isreal's actions because his all about anti-terrorism. Bottomline, I believe whatever the Jews want Bush will give because they returned him the favor through Jewish operated networks within U.S. media since 9/11.

World War III? Perhaps! It'll be interesting what North Korea is going to do and how is China going to react. OMG, not only do we have to worry about terrorism, but also commies!

Stormfish - how old are you?

John R... I'm old enough to know what's going on with the world and not to trust everything you see in the news. ;)

Consuming too much time watching the news can influence the mind. I only begin to question accuracy when things don't seem right. But if your mind is influenced how can you distinguish from what is right and wrong?

Name of God? Maybe for the screwballs in Hezballa, but for Isreal its to protect thier damn people from slaughter. I guess in your world thats a bad thing? But how by Isreal defending themslelves are they acting in the name of God??

Thats like saying we acted in the name of God when we invaded Afganastan, be we all know it was becuase Al Qeada slaughtered our people, and we went after 'em. Whats the difference in the two? Nothing! Our actions, and Isreals, were taken to protect the people of both countries. Its thats simple. Nothing to do with God, only the Muslim fanatics wage terror for their so called God. You cant compare us to them, your nuts if you think that.

Example... If your cousins committed a crime. Should you and everyone else in your family be sentence to jail? There's no justice for Isreal to murder civilians by air attack.

John R... I'm old enough to know what's going on with the world and not to trust everything you see in the news. ;)

Consuming too much time watching the news can influence the mind. I only begin to question accuracy when things don't seem right. But if your mind is influenced how can you distinguish from what is right and wrong?

I'll ask one last time - how old are you?

Name of God? Maybe for the screwballs in Hezballa, but for Isreal its to protect thier damn people from slaughter. I guess in your world thats a bad thing? But how by Isreal defending themslelves are they acting in the name of God??

Thats like saying we acted in the name of God when we invaded Afganastan, be we all know it was becuase Al Qeada slaughtered our people, and we went after 'em. Whats the difference in the two? Nothing! Our actions, and Isreals, were taken to protect the people of both countries. Its thats simple. Nothing to do with God, only the Muslim fanatics wage terror for their so called God. You cant compare us to them, your nuts if you think that.

Skip ... did you read Homeruns post?

Not to side track the discussion, but Drudge is carrying a link to a Pakistani website which has an interesting quote from President Clinton made back in 2002. I wonder if he's dusted off his M-16 yet?


By Khalid Hasan

WASHINGTON: Former US President Bill Clinton who many Arab thoughts was more even-handed on the Palestine question than his predecessors shocked many when he asserted in Toronto last week that had Israel been attacked by Iraq or Iran during his presidency, he would have been ready to “grab a rifle, get in a ditch and fight and die.”

“The Israelis know that if the Iraqi or the Iranian army came across the Jordan River, I would personally grab a rifle, get in a ditch, and fight and die,” Clinton told the crowd at a fund-raising event for a Toronto Jewish charity Monday.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/print.asp?page=2002%5C08%5C04%5Cstory_4-8-2002_pg1_6

Not to side track the discussion, but Drudge is carrying a link to a Pakistani website which has an interesting quote from President Clinton made back in 2002. I wonder if he's dusted off his M-16 yet?
Well, to be fair to Bill I don't think what we're seeing today is in same context he was talking about...

Iran has been helping terrorists strike Israel for some time, this is nothing all that new. And I'd love to see some independent analysis of the situation to ensure Israel isn't looking for their own "Gulf of Tonkin" incident...that story didn't seem to have the legs it appeared to on first glance.

The big looser in all of this is Lebanon, they have been making great strides towards Democracy and normalization with the West and this is really going to set things back.

What Israel is asking for, the Lebanese Government simply can't deliver on...and they know it.

This would be a great opportunity for the World to back the Lebanese PM and push off Syrian and Iranian interests.

I wonder if any of the Beriut Starbucks have been hit?

-spence

can you imagine what He/She must be thinking now........


" If i didnt have it removed I could win this pissing contest ."

Example... If your cousins committed a crime. Should you and everyone else in your family be sentence to jail? There's no justice for Isreal to murder civilians by air attack.

Israel attacks militay targets, Hezbalah goes after civilians only. You do realize this right?

I wonder if any of the Beriut Starbucks have been hit?

-spence

If Hezbalah frequents those Starucks, i hope they've been wiped out.

hezbollah....

Israel attacks militay targets, Hezbalah goes after civilians only. You do realize this right?
No, that's not a fair assessment.

-spence

Israel attacks militay targets, Hezbalah goes after civilians only. You do realize this right?

Skip ... this is far from the truth. Did you read about the Canadians or all the civilians dead now? War is hell....its opened up to a fuller scale attack now by both sides.

And....before you ask.... I would fight with the Israels if it comes to that :D though I expect you to drive us there.

hezbollah....

hezbollah, shesbollah, who cares whose bollah it is?

Skip ... this is far from the truth. Did you read about the Canadians or all the civilians dead now? War is hell....its opened up to a fuller scale attack now by both sides.
This is precisely the problem.

It's not that Israel is accused of intentionally targetting civilians, but rather that they consistantly over apply force causing the civilian deaths regardless.

The incident a few years ago where the IDF shot a live tank round into a peaceful Palestenian demonstration is a perfect example.

One thing I don't think Skippy or a lot like him understand is how much of the problem with terrorisim at the root has to do with humiliation inspired rage, rather than religious fanaticisim...

-spence

Smo Ahhhhhh Bollah :hidin:

Smo Ahhhhhh Bollah :hidin::hihi: :eek5: :rotf3: :smokin:

-spence

“The Israelis know that if the Iraqi or the Iranian army came across the Jordan River, I would personally grab a rifle, get in a ditch, and fight and die,” Clinton told the crowd at a fund-raising event for a Toronto Jewish charity Monday.

:rotf3: :rotfl: :laugha: :rollem:

You think Clinton was patronizing :hee:

-spence

I'll ask one last time - how old are you?

If it tickles your curiosity that much John, I'm 28. I really appreciate you being the tyrant of this board. You pulled one of my threads out in which I didn't have anything to write or linked anything offensive, educative, yes. I'm starting to realize who you stand for and if anyone has a different opinion than you then you become proactive. For a free speech discussion board, it's not really "free" is it? I guess it's your way or no way. Oh I really like that button you relayed my login link to earlier. If I admit I am one then I ask who isn't?

Back to discussions...
Isreal is taking advantage of the U.S.'s war on Terror by following by example. If Bush condemns Isreal for what they do then the U.S. would be known as a hypocrit. Isreal will always feel pressure from the Muslim world because the country has only existed for 58 years to date. 58 years isn't enough time to earn respect from the Arab world after you take their land and call it yours and bullying your neighbors.

Isreals targeted bombings is as effective as the U.S.'s claim to Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq. I think we found a can of Coke which could of contained Anthrax and rigged with a warhead.
Oh btw,
Beginning of Isreals attacks the price on crude went up $2.

I really appreciate you being the tyrant of this board.
Well, this ain't no democracy...who do ya think pays the bills? :rtfm:

-spence

You think Clinton was patronizing :hee:

-spence

Naw, not at all :doh:

If I were the Israelis, I might take Hillary up on it, if she offered, tho :D

Skip ... this is far from the truth. Did you read about the Canadians or all the civilians dead now? War is hell....its opened up to a fuller scale attack now by both sides.

And....before you ask.... I would fight with the Israels if it comes to that :D though I expect you to drive us there.

Israel does NOT go after civilians as thier primary targets you idiots! Sure civilians are killed by accident and that sucks. But they are NOT the primary targets. Now the other side in this conflict, go after civilians as thier primary targets. You got that now? Or this still hard for you to understand?

Clinton grabbing a rifle, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahaha
:jump: :jump: :jump: :jump:


He is starting to believe his own press releases:jester: CLINTON:jester:
:jester:BUFFOON:jester:

And....before you ask.... I would fight with the Israels if it comes to that :D though I expect you to drive us there.

Now this is refreshing, finally your coming around :tooth:

Israel does NOT go after civilians as thier primary targets you idiots! Sure civilians are killed by accident and that sucks. But they are NOT the primary targets. Now the other side in this conflict, go after civilians as thier primary targets. You got that now? Or this still hard for you to understand?
Skippy, you're missing the point.

It doesn't matter, who's targeting what.

-spence

If it tickles your curiosity that much John, I'm 28. I really appreciate you being the tyrant of this board. You pulled one of my threads out in which I didn't have anything to write or linked anything offensive, educative, yes. I'm starting to realize who you stand for and if anyone has a different opinion than you then you become proactive. For a free speech discussion board, it's not really "free" is it? I guess it's your way or no way. Oh I really like that button you relayed my login link to earlier. If I admit I am one then I ask who isn't?

Actually - I asked how old you are because your posts (which seem to have little to with fishing) make you sound like you are a teenager and wanted to make sure (or at least have you say) that you are over 18. And it must have been one of the other tyrants that pulled you post because it wasn't me - however, I'm sure they had valid reason to do so...

And seeing that you don't post much on fishing topics but just sports and political talk I will inform you that most pulled posts are because they degenerated into a pissing contest or because what was posted was just plain wrong or just plain stupid.

In fact, I usually get flamed for not flushing enough crappy posts down the toilet... But believe what you wish (and send the tin foil hat in for a tune up)

And because we are off to such a flowery start here - who do you think I stand for?

Skippy, you're missing the point.

It doesn't matter, who's targeting what.

-spence
Spence I'm sure you want to clarify that statement because it could lead one to assume that it is an attempt at legitmizing the targeting of unmarmed, innocent civilians. (They killed civilians by mistake so it's okay for us to kill them on purpose). Collateral damage which Israel is guilty of is bad enough without the purposeful intent of killing civilians which Hizbollah is guilty of. Thats probably why it's called Terrorism.

well then dont start flushing them John . I will go from like 5000 posts to 10 .

IM THE COMIC RELIEF !

Collateral damage is inevitable when a gang of cowards deliberately use civilian areas as staging grounds for their attacks.

You can't expect any country to sit there and take it forever.

Israel does NOT go after civilians as thier primary targets you idiots! Sure civilians are killed by accident and that sucks. But they are NOT the primary targets. Now the other side in this conflict, go after civilians as thier primary targets. You got that now? Or this still hard for you to understand?


I cannot believe your ignorance.... do you have any clue how far off you are???? Do you get paid to incite people?

And seeing that you don't post much on fishing topics but just sports and political talk I will inform you that most pulled posts are because they degenerated into a pissing contest or because what was posted was just plain wrong or just plain stupid.


Well I posted a link to a video which analyzed the attacks on 9/11 and how the Bush Administration handled the Aftermath of 9/11. Was documentary incorrect? It's on the basis of judgement. Is it to piss people off? I think it may enlighten them. Was it stupid? Again, judgement...

And because we are off to such a flowery start here - who do you think I stand for?
I guess I directed my comments towards the wrong person. So if you didn't pull my post then that changes everything...
I assumed, yes I hate to admit it, that you pulled it because you're an Admin and you're usually active around this forum. With that in retrospect, I felt intellectually threatened by you asking me for my age. That's why I was being an "a$$hole." My apologies...

Simular to Isreal I had an area of "target."

I cannot believe your ignorance.... do you have any clue how far off you are???? Do you get paid to incite people?

Okay enlighten us. On what point is Skip ignorant?

Israel does NOT go after civilians as thier primary targets you idiots! Sure civilians are killed by accident and that sucks. But they are NOT the primary targets. Now the other side in this conflict, go after civilians as thier primary targets. You got that now? Or this still hard for you to understand?

1. Isreal has targeted areas.
2. They know there are civilians near the targets.
3. They know they're are going to blow up civilains to reach their targets.
4. They blow up their targets.
5. No Hezbullah...
6. Isreal calls it an accident.

Okay enlighten us. On what point is Skip ignorant?


The one where he calls everyone Idiots......Earlier everyone was a Moron.

I just wish he would make up his mind......just like those Hippy Liberals...always Flip-Floppin

Okay enlighten us. On what point is Skip ignorant?


All of them :jester: Are you in the matrix to?

this is a test for everyone...who is he and what is his history?

Isn't that Blackbeard after he shaved?

this is a test for everyone...who is he and what is his history?

he's the kid who didn't listen to his mother .:poke:

If that's Moshe Dyan, then he's one of the guys who created Israel through terrorist tactics. Also showed the Egyptian Army how to die.
http://www.tylerphoto.com/people/dyan.html Looked him up for you.

You win a BBJ plug!

He was a bad ass :hihi:

All of them :jester: Are you in the matrix to?

Hmm...I guess if believing fighting back against Terrorism is the right thing to do, and if thinkiing that the destruction of Hizbollah and Hamas is a pretty cool thing, than yes I'm in the Matrix.

Damn - how the hell did you get to 5000 posts ??

Hmm...I guess if believing fighting back against Terrorism is the right thing to do, and if thinkiing that the destruction of Hizbollah and Hamas is a pretty cool thing, than yes I'm in the Matrix.

SS.... I agree with your statement :cheers:

Spence I'm sure you want to clarify that statement because it could lead one to assume that it is an attempt at legitmizing the targeting of unmarmed, innocent civilians. (They killed civilians by mistake so it's okay for us to kill them on purpose). Collateral damage which Israel is guilty of is bad enough without the purposeful intent of killing civilians which Hizbollah is guilty of. Thats probably why it's called Terrorism.
The statement is pretty clear...the point being, it's not like Palestenian non-militants are saying "well, my son did die while walking to school between checkpoints 7 and 8, but the Israelis were aiming those rockets at the terrorists down the street, so I guess it was just Allah's will"...

The Israelis are certainly guilty of dehumanizing the Palestenians in an effort to provide security, but let's be honest...also wear them down. Hence my comments about humiliation and rage.

I don't think they should shoulder the blame though, as I've stated previously, the problem is much larger than the two parties and will require a solution that's beyond both.

-spence

Arab-Israeli wars

A day after the declaration of independence of the State of Israel, armies of five Arab countries, Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq, invaded Israel. This marked the beginning of the War of Independence. Arab states have jointly waged four full scale wars against Israel:

1948 War of Independence
1956 Sinai War
1967 Six Day War
1973 Yom Kippur WarDespite the numerical superiority of the Arab armies, Israel defended itself each time and won. After each war Israeli army withdrew from most of the areas it captured (see maps (http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/)). This is unprecedented in World history and shows Israel's willingness to reach peace even at the risk of fighting for its very existence each time anew.

SS.... I agree with your statement :cheers:

I'm glad you agree with his statement. But what he said is the same damn stuff i've been saying this entire thread! When i say it, im a nut, when he says the same thing, you agree.

I will never understand the left!! Make up your damn minds please!

But hey, welcome to the Matrix, you agree with me and SS after all.

Oh wow... So the cause of terrorism is due to Western colonization in the Middle East. It would be so much simple if the Jews went back to Europe...

I'm glad you agree with his statement. But what he said is the same damn stuff i've been saying this entire thread! When i say it, im a nut, when he says the same thing, you agree.

I will never understand the left!! Make up your damn minds please!

But hey, welcome to the Matrix, you agree with me and SS after all.

Its all the other stuff Skip.... :hihi: You crazy bugger you :laugha:

There is no left or middle or right....its all one big hole :rollem:

did he say CRAZY BUGGER :hidin:

Despite the numerical superiority of the Arab armies, Israel defended itself each time and won. After each war Israeli army withdrew from most of the areas it captured (see maps (http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/)). This is unprecedented in World history and shows Israel's willingness to reach peace even at the risk of fighting for its very existence each time anew.

And what a few billion a year from the US can do for you.

And what a few billion a year from the US can do for you.


Likwid.... no one supported them years ago except themselves and they survived and thrived

But what he said is the same damn stuff i've been saying this entire thread! When i say it, im a nut, when he says the same thing, you agree.

I will never understand the left!! Make up your damn minds please!



Because when you say it, its more of an Attack and it seems full of hate. You call people Idiots and Morons. And if someone doesn't see it your way you immediately label them as "Lefty's"

You take peoples words and totally distort them. All Skitterpop asked was how this whole Isreal-Palestine Confrontation was going to effect the World we Live in and mentioned how the US had probably given Isreal the Green Light on this and you turned it around and Labeled him A friend of Palestine and a Terrorist Sympathiser.

If you want people to take you seriously you need to "CHILL The F Out" and stop being so "in your face" on everything. You may actually get somewhere with the Point your trying to make instead of immediately putting people on the defensive. Once you start Labeling People and Name-calling you immediately get the word "Nut" Stamped on your forehead for the rest of the thread and no-one takes you seriously.

And before you label me a Terrorist Sympathiser I believe Hezbollah, Hamas, The PLO, Al-Quaida, The IRA, The KKK, the Aryan Brotherhood and any other organization that Peddles Hate should be wiped out.

Likwid.... no one supported them years ago except themselves and they survived and thrived

mmmmmmmmmmmm.....no

Likwid.... no one supported them years ago except themselves and they survived and thrived
If my memory of the history is right, we didn't even provide much if any aid in the '47 war. Israel was able to defend herself just fine by smuggling arms through Eastern Europe, and fighting like hell.

Remember as well that a lot of the "billions" people talk about was part of a joint settlement with Egypt, and we have been throwing them money as well.

In a way I think we've done Israel a great disservice by protecting them from UN condemnation over the years...it's created a tremendous amount of animosity towards both the US and Israel, contributed greatly to 9/11 and has prevented, I believe, Israel from gaining needed legitimacy in the region.

Instead of being seen as strong when they indeed have been very strong, they are seen as a protected son who can do no wrong...

-spence

Likwid.... no one supported them years ago except themselves and they survived and thrived

Actually--before the demographics of France changed and it became about 20% Muslim, they got a lot of military aid from France. Their entire Air Force was made up of Mirages up until the 1967 war.

And in 1956, there is some pretty convincing evidence that both French and British fighter pilots flew clandestinely for the IDF.

mmmmmmmmmmmm.....no


Wrong...back later :cheers:

And before you label me a Terrorist Sympathiser I believe Hezbollah, Hamas, The PLO, Al-Quaida, The IRA, The KKK, the Aryan Brotherhood and any other organization that Peddles Hate should be wiped out.

Hey when people make crazy and wild statements i call them out, just the way it is. If you cant cant deal then to bad. Have you seen the crap people have said about me!? Deal with it, who cares. I could care less what people say about me. I laugh it off and make my point.

But i'm glad to see your coming around with your above statement. There's hope for you after all :tooth:

Hey when people make crazy and wild statements i call them out, just the way it is.
No, what you're doing is applying caveman logic to a very nuanced situation and stating without question that anyone who doesn't share your overly simplistic view is aligned with the enemy.

It's the exact same bull%$%$%$%$ that Bush has used to divide the country, and it's pathetic.

-spence

But i'm glad to see your coming around with your above statement. There's hope for you after all :tooth:

No Coming Around here, I've always had issue w/ Hate-based organizations.....So don't think you've influenced me one way or the other on that.

You asked why People thought you were a nut...I merely answered it. And seeing what your reply to it was......I can see it went in one ear and out the other.

No Coming Around here, I've always had issue w/ Hate-based organizations.....So don't think you've influenced me one way or the other on that.

You asked why People thought you were a nut...I merely answered it. And seeing what your reply to it was......I can see it went in one ear and out the other.

So i'm considered a nut for spporting Israel, yet when some REAL nuts come on here and try spewing some 9/11 consiracy theries they get a free pass. God i love this site! They get a free pass, but im the nut! God i just love it.

You must feel like %$%$%$%$ knowing you agree with me on the Israel issue! :laugha: Welcome to the nut club buddy.

So i'm considered a nut for spporting Israel, yet when some REAL nuts come on here and try spewing some 9/11 consiracy theries they get a free pass. God i love this site! They get a free pass, but im the nut! God i just love it.

You must feel like %$%$%$%$ knowing you agree with me on the Israel issue! :laugha: Welcome to the nut club buddy.

In No Way, Shape, or Form would I ever belong to a club that has you as its President.

There is just something Not Firing.

In No Way, Shape, or Form would I ever belong to a club that has you as its President.

There is just something Not Firing.

Yet another useless post...but thats your specialty, you never have anything to offer.

Let me know when your brain turns on and you can add something to a debate, ok?

Let me know when you're ready to debate instead of trading insults. It's too hot for me to edit everything. Tone down the personal back and forth and stick to the issues. TDF is trying to get you to see that the message tends to get lost in the messenger's tone. If you want to be taken seriously, lay off questioning the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with you.

Israel is eager to teach its next generation so they're ready when they start it now.

http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/07/17/photo-of-the-day-israeli-kids-sends-gifts-of-love-to-arab-kids/

So i'm considered a nut for spporting Israel
No, you're a nut for labeling anyone who embraces a more objective viewpoint as sympathetic to terrorisim.

-spence

Israel is eager to teach its next generation so they're ready when they start it now.
It's a part of the Jewish culture...learned this when I attended my first Seder...

Seems a bit odd for a gentile like me, but then my family tree has been a cakewalk by comparrison...never had to worry about preservation of the Anglicans!

I didn't look at that link BTW, so please don't take my comments in context.

-spence

Israel is eager to teach its next generation so they're ready when they start it now.

http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/07/17/photo-of-the-day-israeli-kids-sends-gifts-of-love-to-arab-kids/

read all the following commentary. As I said in the other post, i have NO problem with that. Bombs are for killing, the target is the enemy, I hope they find their mark. These kids live with this everyday.

If this was a war with mexico and teh US and we were 7,8 yrs old. We'd be doing the same thing.

If this was a war with mexico and teh US and we were 7,8 yrs old. We'd be doing the same thing.

If you lived in Texas, in a trailer, with 12 broken down cars in your front yard, couldn't pass the GED, and found sheep attractive you'd be correct.

If you lived in Texas, in a trailer, with 12 broken down cars in your front yard, couldn't pass the GED, and found sheep attractive you'd be correct.

I guess I dont understand.
Only dumb hicks want their country to be succesful?

I guess I dont understand.
Only dumb hicks want their country to be succesful?

Only dumb hicks find children writing on bombs being an "ok thing" to do.

I guess I am a dumb hick.

I guess I am a dumb hick.

But children suicide bombers are bad.
Because they are the "enemy".

But children suicide bombers are bad.
Because they are the "enemy".

the target for those shells are Hezzbollah's stockpile of rockets.
Suicide bombers target civilian targets. :rollem:

the target for those shells are Hezzbollah's stockpile of rockets.
Suicide bombers target civilian targets. :rollem:

Israeli bombs are killing civilians too!

"they do it too" dosen't cut it.

Neither is right.

But children suicide bombers are bad.
Because they are the "enemy".

Nope but their parents sure as Hell are. Unless you don't consider Terrorists the "enemy".

If you lived in Texas, in a trailer, with 12 broken down cars in your front yard, couldn't pass the GED, and found sheep attractive you'd be correct.

Yeah I guess those trailer people don't matter much anyway's, probably voted for Bush.

Nope but their parents sure as Hell are. Unless you don't consider Terrorists the "enemy".

So where's the outcry of the required military service of the Israelis?
They're forcing their children to go to war too.

So where's the outcry of the required military service of the Israelis?
They're forcing their children to go to war too.

So your comparing military service with Terrorism?

So your comparing military service with Terrorism?

When they're rolling tanks over people in the Gaza Strip, yes.

Forced to blow people up as suicide bombers and delivering truck bombs -> terrorism.
Forced to blow people up and roll over civilians with tanks in search of 1 or 2 "terrorists" -> terrorism.

The terrorists didn't do this to the Gaza Strip, the Israelis did, in search of terrorists:

http://www.palestinercs.org/images/Home%20Demolition/AlToufah2.jpg

When they're rolling tanks over people in the Gaza Strip, yes.

Forced to blow people up as suicide bombers and delivering truck bombs -> terrorism.
Forced to blow people up and roll over civilians with tanks in search of 1 or 2 "terrorists" -> terrorism.

Even if those 1or 2 Terrorists may be responsible for the deaths of hundreds maybe thousands of your people and will continue to do so if not killed, and, then choose to hide behind innocent civilians for protection from those who they attack and kill at will?

Personally I would be more prepared to see the one's who choose to hide behind civilians as terrorists and the ones pursuing them acting in self defense.

I really like your cute use of "quotation" marks when using the word Terrorist. Kind of gives me the feeling you don't really beleive in the use of the word.

[QUOTE=likwid]When they're rolling tanks over people in the Gaza Strip, yes.

Forced to blow people up as suicide bombers and delivering truck bombs -> terrorism.
Forced to blow people up and roll over civilians with tanks in search of 1 or 2 "terrorists" -> terrorism.

The terrorists didn't do this to the Gaza Strip, the Israelis did, in search of terrorists:

Want to see pictures of the aftermath of a Bus Bombing in Tel Aviv? Israeli's didn't do it, Terrorists did in search of killing civilians.

Give the land back to the Palestinians and there will be no terrorism in Isreal.

Neither. Of. Them. Are. Right.

Children writing on bombs is not right.
Children being forced to blow people up is not right.
People blowing up buses is not right.
People rolling over civilians in tanks is not right.

Give the land back to the Palestinians and there will be no terrorism in Isreal.

Not according to the Koran.

Not according to the Koran.

I don't think a majority of the Palestinians care what you think Fox News told you.

I'm sure the majority would be more than happy with their farm land back.

But its all condos and home complexes that look like mid Michigan so... bleh.

I don't think a majority of the Palestinians care what you think Fox News told you.

I'm sure the majority would be more than happy with their farm land back.

But its all condos and home complexes that look like mid Michigan so... bleh.

I don't watch Fox News. Nice Left wing chant though.

I don't watch Fox News. Nice Left wing chant though.

CNN, whatever you wanna watch.
The reality of it is they're en mass shelling people to hunt down what? a few thousand out of what? 500,000?

Its like blowing up your house to kill a mouse.

Not according to the Koran.
I think very little terrorisim in Palestine is motivated by the Koran.

The notion of what constitutes terrorisim is very relative to your frame of reference, but from our perspective it generally indicates the intentional and random targeting of civilians in an attempt to propagate fear.

I wouldn't consider the consisant over application of force by the IDF, or actions like the razing of homes to be terrorisim per say....oppression perhaps in some instances, but not terrorisim.

Given that some of the Israeli violence is certainly justified, yet some appears to be way over the top just adds to a rather unique and dysfunctional situation.

-spence

Hey when people make crazy and wild statements i call them out, just the way it is.

For the love of Allah you must call yourself out on a rabid basis :usd:

And.......thank God there is a p nut butter wth your name that is not too bad :cheers:

Actually--before the demographics of France changed and it became about 20% Muslim, they got a lot of military aid from France. Their entire Air Force was made up of Mirages up until the 1967 war.

And in 1956, there is some pretty convincing evidence that both French and British fighter pilots flew clandestinely for the IDF.

The British actually fought against them in 48 and for some years afterward....they really did much on there own with brilliant strategy and underground training of the special night forces...and of course they had to import weapons but the UN turned their backs on them when they were faced with multi Arabic armies. Loads of $$$$$$$$$$ did`nt hurt either....but strategy was key and their heart.

The Brits changed their tune when Nasser overthrew King Farouk of Egypt and started making noises about closing down the Suez Canal to British shipping, and nationalizing BP's oil wells. In fact, it was his shutting down the Suez Canal in the 1956 war that sparked the alleged clandestine British intervention. There are photographs and newsreel footage of Mirage fighter jets sporting strange cross-shaped markings, instead of the Star of David. That's what led to the speculation that they were being flown by British and French pilots and not Israelis.

Mike.... you smart bastage :cheers:

Interesting with all the behind the scenes assistance and non assistance how we reached today....

Oh my god....


BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- The Bush administration is waiving the requirement that Americans have to pay or reimburse the government for being evacuated from Lebanon, aides to two senators said.


:doh:

Yea, but they'll get 'em with the 25 dollar charge to upgrade to an aisle seat :)

-spence

Oh my god....


BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- The Bush administration is waiving the requirement that Americans have to pay or reimburse the government for being evacuated from Lebanon, aides to two senators said.


:doh:

I'm mixed on this. I dont think we should say to the US citizens in Lebanon, that yeah we'll rescue you, but only if you pay $2000! (or whatever the price tag is) or hit em up with a a large bill after the fact. The US should'nt charge its citizens in a time when they need help. Its like sending a huge bill to the people rescued during Katrina.

The other side of me says, WTF are Americans doing in Lebanon anyway!? Dont these folks know the middle east is prob not the best place to be now adays!? So part of me says, hey you guys arent that bright for hanging out in countries that have terroist groups roaming the streets!

Personally I don't see what the problem is in charging them, they were going to have to pay commercial airfare to come home anyway. Now I wouldn't charge them commercial rates, but enough to cover the cost of the fuel would seem appropriate.

The other side of me says, WTF are Americans doing in Lebanon anyway!? Dont these folks know the middle east is prob not the best place to be now adays!?
Skippy,

1. There were a lot of Lebanese Christians who fled civil war in the 1970's that came to the United States. Not only is there a cultural tie, but there are many family ties as well.

2. Lebanon is pretty modern and Beirut is considered to be one of the more cosmopolitan cities in the region. For the most part it's quite Western and has a large tourisim industry.

3. And perhaps most importantly...the single best thing we can to do combat terrorisim in the long run is to encourage the free exchange of business and ideas with other nations.

A strong collaborative relationship with Lebanon is critical to the future of the weak democracy that exists today.

We can't collaborate if we're not there...

-spence

I am sure the marines would look forward to being deployed in Beruit again Spence if we re-establish a working relationship with Lebonon.

I am sure the marines would look forward to being deployed in Beruit again Spence if we re-establish a working relationship with Lebonon.
Hey, I know and work with guys that were deployed back then :chatter

Fact of the matter, you're comparing apples and oranges.

-spence