So now the dynamic in the conflict is starting to evolve a bit, and while it still may, doesn't look like it's going to lead to a broader war.

I'm left assessing the situation thinking, could Israel have done anything more to exacerbate the problems of the region?

Their stated plan is failing, Hezbolla has proved their ability to survive and the suffering they have inflicted is causing more terrorist sympathy among the moderate affected population.

The US being the only nation to back Israel has suffered more negativity on the Muslim street...with nothing to show for it.

In fact, the real problems are being delayed...which could be by design.

Israel certainly has a right to defend her citizens...but given that we now see how unrealistic the objective really was...and the damage it's caused...

Do the people who thought this was a good thing maintain their position?

-spence

doesn't look like it's going to lead to a broader war.

-spence


With respect.... It has all been leading to broader wars for many years now. I see terrorist attacks worldwide as a broader war. I see this as World War Three yesterday today and tomorrow.

My line of thinking is that Bush's leveling with the Blair position will do much to snuff the flame.

Only the hardcore religious whack jobs want to fight this thing out...and there is little representation for that position...regardless what they tell us.

-spence

Don't forget Al-Queda and the Phillipines.We do have troops have there too.

That is true...Asia has problem pockets here and there.

But is it a "war" or rather a global "insurgency"?

I'd vote for the later.

-spence

That is true...Asia has problem pockets here and there.

But is it a "war" or rather a global "insurgency"?

I'd vote for the later.

-spence

No argument from me there.

Remember that before 9/11 radical Islam was considered to be on the decline...

The threat we face today is certainly real, but has more to do with traditional sociology and politics than religion...not that fanatics don't exacerbate the problem.

If it's a "war" then it had better be a war against disenfranchisement...

And note to self, you can't bomb people to freedom :hs:

-spence

any world that can devise and utilize the term ethnic cleansing is obscene :hs:


so...what does global insurgency mean? This a new war...not traditional yet a new war of epic proportions.

so...what does global insurgency mean? This a new war...not traditional yet a new war of epic proportions.
Just as it sounds, it's a rebellion...not a terrorist army being led by one or two people.

Radical Islam is tapping into a very broad and deep sense of rage and frustration spread throughout the world.

If you want to call it a "war" then we're just arguing semantics...but it's an important discinction because it explains a lot of the Administration's behavior...they fully understand what's going on.

Fundamentally, we are not at war with radical Islam. Radicalisim is a very serious exacerbating factor, but it's not the root cause.

Hence Bush asserting that he wasn't really concerned with the location of Osama...which shocked everyone.

Why do you think the Administration has literally ignored the recomendations of the 9/11 comission on making our country more secure? They don't see they short term threat as a high priority because it distracts from the bigger picture.

The notion of making the Middle East more democratic is the right line of thinking, but the execution has been unconscionable.

What's ironic is that for all the "liberal" bashing done by the GOP and their sheep, supporters of this Administration have been duped into supporting a very liberal foreign policy!

Neoconservatisim at it's core is as liberal and undemocratic as authortarian socialisim.

Look at the pissing on the US Constitution, the extreme secrecy and the rampant disregard for International legal and moral institutions that we as a country helped form.

This isn't just random, or even incompetence...a new world order is being rammed down our throats...

And people like Skippy think the problem is Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid :wall:

Social conservatives are being manipulated as well, but I'll avoid that so I don't annoy a certain someone :hee:

The solution to the threat of terrorisim lies in the magic that's America, but we're just too terrorized by our own leadership to see it...

-spence

:smokin:

-spence

Just as it sounds, it's a rebellion...not a terrorist army being led by one or two people.

Radical Islam is tapping into a very broad and deep sense of rage and frustration spread throughout the world.

If you want to call it a "war" then we're just arguing semantics...but it's an important discinction because it explains a lot of the Administration's behavior...they fully understand what's going on.

Fundamentally, we are not at war with radical Islam. Radicalisim is a very serious exacerbating factor, but it's not the root cause.

Hence Bush asserting that he wasn't really concerned with the location of Osama...which shocked everyone.

Why do you think the Administration has literally ignored the recomendations of the 9/11 comission on making our country more secure? They don't see they short term threat as a high priority because it distracts from the bigger picture.

The notion of making the Middle East more democratic is the right line of thinking, but the execution has been unconscionable.

What's ironic is that for all the "liberal" bashing done by the GOP and their sheep, supporters of this Administration have been duped into supporting a very liberal foreign policy!

Neoconservatisim at it's core is as liberal and undemocratic as authortarian socialisim.

Look at the pissing on the US Constitution, the extreme secrecy and the rampant disregard for International legal and moral institutions that we as a country helped form.

This isn't just random, or even incompetence...a new world order is being rammed down our throats...

And people like Skippy think the problem is Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid :wall:

Social conservatives are being manipulated as well, but I'll avoid that so I don't annoy a certain someone :hee:

The solution to the threat of terrorisim lies in the magic that's America, but we're just too terrorized by our own leadership to see it...

-spence


:sleeps: :smash: :devil2: Hey man :bo:

about the correlation between these muslim fanatics and pre WW 2 Germany. The muslims keep taking away rights like the nazis did. I know I haven't posted much in this thread and I hope no one minds me jumping in, but this morning I had this thought and it has been bothering me ever since. While the whole world looks the other way purposely the muslims are taking over. While the whole world looked the other way Hitler invaded half of Europe. Muslims have no rights and neither will we if we dont stop them.

What's ironic is that for all the "liberal" bashing done by the GOP and their sheep, supporters of this Administration have been duped into supporting a very liberal foreign policy!


-spence

Absolutely right Spence. Its about time we got a real conservative in the White House. We will all need earplugs to filter out that inevitable high pitched squeal the Leftnuts will subject us to then ( if it can get any worse).

about the correlation between these muslim fanatics and pre WW 2 Germany. The muslims keep taking away rights like the nazis did. I know I haven't posted much in this thread and I hope no one minds me jumping in, but this morning I had this thought and it has been bothering me ever since. While the whole world looks the other way purposely the muslims are taking over. While the whole world looked the other way Hitler invaded half of Europe. Muslims have no rights and neither will we if we dont stop them.
A good observation, but it's not the same this time around.

Certianly Nazisim was able to take hold with Germany's unemployment and poor economy...

But the Global environment has changed the game entirely...the information war has been rewritten.

Now our actions are translated (or manipulated) and broadcast via high-speed link into homes around the world.

There is no time for spin control, as the damage has been done.

We need to measure twice, then cut once...

Instead of wandering about like a drunk with a sawsall.

-spence

Absolutely right Spence. Its about time we got a real conservative in the White House. We will all need earplugs to filter out that inevitable high pitched squeal the Leftnuts will subject us to then ( if it can get any worse).
So I'm curious...

What does a real conservative stand for?

-spence

Friday, July 28, 2006
Ancient hatreds hardening in Middle East

In the first days of fighting in the Middle East, some Arab leaders found themselves in the unusual position of criticizing an attack on Israel; suggesting that Hezbollah's kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers, the event that started this latest bloodshed, was ill-conceived, risky and wrong.

At that time, the loudest complaints about Israel's actions were coming from Syria and Iran, countries that have backed Hezbollah for years.

But look at how a little more than two weeks can change things.

The Israeli military has been battling Hezbollah nonstop and hammering Lebanon. And now, Middle East watchers say public complaints about Israel's actions are growing noticeably louder throughout the Arab world. The images of Lebanese killed, wounded and fleeing; the pictures of Hezbollah neighborhoods reduced to rubble; the mere thought of Israel attacking on the soil of an Arab country -- these things have triggered many deep-seated and long-lived hatreds.

Some of the Middle East experts I have talked to say this should not be mistaken for the beginning of a massive, pro-Hezbollah movement. Many Arabs, they say, especially those who must live alongside Hezbollah in Lebanon, do not like the group's radical politics and despise its militant methods. But few Arabs say that publicly.

It was explained to me this way: Ask any Arab if he or she supports Hezbollah right now and that person is likely to say "yes," but what they mean is that they are not about to be heard supporting Israel.

Some Arabs have always hated Israel and probably always will. Some Israelis, no doubt, would be happy to be rid of many Arabs. So my question is this: Does it make any difference, with the guns of war pounding, that their hatreds may be hardening even more?

I don't know what it is about the Jews, but there's always issues with them. For one, Hitler who is a Jew himself, led a campaign to exterminate his own people. Europe then banished the Jews to Isreal, causing conflict with the Arabs. Now it seems the Arabs want to banish the Jews back to Europe. If it was so easy to move all the Jews back to Europe, peace will thrive well in the Middle East. But with so many Jews, where to put them? I think we should take over Mexico and relocate Isreal below the border of Texas/Mexico. Will that anger Latinos? Will the Latinos then become terrorists? Call me a cynic, but I can never see peace between the Jews and Arabs.

Ummmmm...."banished" to Israel?

There's an 'ism" word that starts with a 'Z' that you may be overlooking...

-spence

Zealotism?

for the love of Judea!

Zion ism

3 dozen children dead in one strike.

still worth it?

3 dozen children dead in one strike.

still worth it?


One person dead is not worth it. Though.... if I built my missile launchers into reinforced apartment buildings and was dropping them on your family and friends would you say I cannot strike that building knowing there were women and children there.... when the residents have embraced Hezbollah and are one in the same quite often.

Its a horrble situation. Its a booby trap for any Israel action essentially.

Remember Vietnam

Remember Vietnam

My Lai Massacre?

we can play chess but really.... none of us know anything :(

What is the truth and whose truth is it?

Jettison my escape pod: All life is an illusion :walk:

There's no parallel to Mai Lai...not that I see.

The real issue here is Israel punishing the Lebanese under the guise of attacking Hezbolla.

If there was any real chance to destroy the group the global perception would be quite different.

Both Israel and Hezbolla have made some serious miscalculations in this conflict...and it's primarily innocents that are bearing the brunt.

-spence

Its about Iran.

Its about Iran.


and all Muslims who advocate jihad :spam:

and all Muslims who advocate jihad :spam:
Jihad is a part of Islam, the problem is in the interpretation of Jihad...

A good book that touches this subject well is "The Trouble with Islam: A Muslim's Call for Reform in Her Faith" by Irshad Manji.

-spence

I don't know what it is about the Jews, but there's always issues with them. For one, Hitler who is a Jew himself, led a campaign to exterminate his own people. Europe then banished the Jews to Isreal, causing conflict with the Arabs. Now it seems the Arabs want to banish the Jews back to Europe. If it was so easy to move all the Jews back to Europe, peace will thrive well in the Middle East. But with so many Jews, where to put them? I think we should take over Mexico and relocate Isreal below the border of Texas/Mexico. Will that anger Latinos? Will the Latinos then become terrorists? Call me a cynic, but I can never see peace between the Jews and Arabs.

Hitler was a Jew???????????????????????:laugha:

oh by the way stormfish, I just called the nation of the Mohawks and Iroquois, they will come by later today to kick you, and your family off your land. It doesnt "really" belong to you now, does it? You should do whats right and give it back to the natives.

For one, Hitler who is a Jew himself, led a campaign to exterminate his own people.

From Holocaust-History.Org

Hitler's grandmother was not Jewish.

There are some rumors hinting that Hitler's grandfather was Jewish. Few, if any, of the reputable historians on the Holocaust believe that this is so. It is more likely that Hitler tried to keep the murky history of his family quite secret because there was a high incidence of insanity and feeble-mindedness in his ancestors.

Rumors die hard, though.

One of Hitler's henchmen, Hans Frank, declared during the Nuremberg Trials in 1945-46, that Hitler's grandmother had worked in the town of Graz as a servant in the home of a Jewish family named Frankenberger. He further claimed that she was seduced by the head of the household and that Hitler's grandfather was the result of that liaison.

A subsequent analysis of Frank's statement by Simon Wiesenthal disclosed that there was no evidence of any Jewish family named Frankenberger ever living in Graz. What is more, Jews had been driven out of Graz in the 15th century and had not been allowed to return until 1856, nearly twenty years after Hitler's grandfather had been born.

Hitler's grandmother's maiden name was Schickelgruber. There is considerable evidence that this family produced abnormal progeny. Examples are: one of Hitler's relatives through his mother's side committed suicide in 1920, another, Aloisha had been placed in an insane asylum, another was "feeble-minded," and yet another was retarded.

According to the article from which I am quoting this material:


"Hitler's real fear, then, was not that someone would discover that he has a Jewish grandfather, but that it would someday come to light that he carried a hereditary disposition toward mental illness and retardation."
You might ask your English teacher to go to a good library and see the following article:


"Hitler's Family Secret: A file recovered from the Nazi Archives tells of a Gestapo investigation into the Fuehrer's murky family history."
By: Ben S. Swearingen
Civilization: The Magazine of the Library of Congress Volume 2, Number 2, Arcg/April 1995, pp. 54-55
Harry W. Mazal OBE

Jihad is a part of Islam, the problem is in the interpretation of Jihad...

A good book that touches this subject well is "The Trouble with Islam: A Muslim's Call for Reform in Her Faith" by Irshad Manji.

-spence


A book is a book is a book....reality does not live on typed pages but rather bleeds slowly across its own slowly revealed truth...SP

Spence - I am curious, what is your solution to the middle east conflict?

A book is a book is a book....reality does not live on typed pages but rather bleeds slowly across its own slowly revealed truth...SP
It's called perspective dipstick :kewl:

-spence

Spence - I am curious, what is your solution to the middle east conflict?
The whole thing, or just this recent flare up?

-spence

Before September 11th, The terroist group responsible for killing the most Americans was Hezbalah.

And a cease fire wil only give Hezbalah time to re arm and re organize. Not a smart move for Israel to accept one....

oh by the way stormfish, I just called the nation of the Mohawks and Iroquois, they will come by later today to kick you, and your family off your land. It doesnt "really" belong to you now, does it? You should do whats right and give it back to the natives.

Haha... I think they rather build casinos nowadays!

I didn't know Jews were natives of Jereuselem... I thought they were Nomadic people that crucified Jesus...

Hitler looks more Jewish than German to me. Hitler labled those who weren't blonde with blue eyes as Jewish during that time. Did he look in the mirror?

I thought they were Nomadic people that crucified Jesus...
Actually, it was the Romans.

I'm curious where you get your alternate version of history?

-spence

Who Are The Jews?


The Jews have a 5,750 year history, tracing their origins to Biblical times. Evolving out of a common religion, the Jewish people developed customs, culture, and an ethical system which identified them as Jews regardless of their individual religious attitudes. The ancient Jews were both conquerors and the conquered. But they were among only a handful of ancient peoples to survive, despite centuries of persecution, massacres, and their dispersion amongst all of the world's nations. Where other peoples assimilated, the Jews adopted some local customs and folkways, but held onto the basic tenets of their religion and culture.

This chapter describes the history, religion, customs and culture of the Jewish people. An understanding of "who are the Jews" is a prerequisite to understanding the roots of anti-Semitism, which, in its most vile form, sowed the seeds of the Holocaust which had as its ultimate objective the total annihilation of the Jewish people.

Judaism
Judaism is the religion of the Jews. There are an estimated 14 million followers of the Jewish religion around the world. Most of the world's Jews are concentrated in three countries: the United States (six million), Israel (3.7 million), and the Soviet Union (2.5 million). Other nations with significant Jewish populations are France (650 thousand), Great Britain (400 thousand), Canada (300 thousand), Argentina (300 thousand), and Brazil (150 thousand).

Judaism was the first religion based on monotheism, the belief in one God. All of the major Western religions found their roots in Judaism.

A central tenet of Judaism is that God, the Creator of the World, made a special agreement called a covenant (berit in Hebrew) with Abraham, from whom the Jewish people descended. The covenant provided that the Jews would be blessed with God's love and protection if they remained true to God's law and faithfully worshipped Him, and be accountable for sins and transgression against God and His laws. The Jewish People have often been referred to throughout history as the "Chosen People" because of the belief that the Jews were singled out among all of the ancient peoples to receive God's laws and His blessings. According to Judaism, the Jews were chosen to be His servants although God is the universal Creator of all humanity.

Jews traditionally do not encourage converts, although converts are accepted after they demonstrate knowledge about the faith and their sincerity in accepting its laws.

The tenets of Judaism include a belief in a coming Messiah (derived from the Hebrew, meaning, "the anointed one") who will unite the Jewish people and lead them under a Kingdom of God on earth and bring peace and justice to all mankind.

While Judaism recognizes an "afterlife," it is principally a "this world" religion. The Creator in Judaistic theology is all-knowing and does not have a corporal form.

Judaism is traditionally decentralized. There is no equivalent to a Pope or other central, international decision-making authority who determines religious dogma or practice. Each Jewish congregation is responsible for its own affairs and is usually, but not always, led by a spiritual leader called a rabbi. Many rabbis are trained in a seminary or university established for the purpose of furthering religious scholarship and teaching. Each of the major groups of Judaism (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist) has its own institution in the United States for training rabbis, and each sect, and for that matter, each congregation, maintains its own practices, traditions, and interpretations of Jewish law.

Jewish worship and study often takes place at a synagogue, and religious services often include prayer and readings from the Torah. Services held in a synagogue are traditionally led by a rabbi and assisted by a cantor, who leads the chanting and songs which accompany prayer.

Judaism traditionally emphasizes ethical conduct and the treatment of others "as one would wish to be treated themselves." Thus, the doctrine which does exist through written and oral Jewish law is continually being reinterpreted to respond to modern developments.

The major body of Jewish law is found in the Torah, which consists of the Five Books of Moses (also known as the Pentateuch) and which forms the first part of the Old Testament. This law has been supplemented by oral law and interpretations of the law which comprise the Talmud.

There are 613 commandments included in the Torah, which also includes the "Ten Commandments." These 613 commandments govern Jewish law covering such areas as philanthropy, sacrifices, prayer, ritual purity, dietary laws, and observances of the Sabbath and other holy days. The Jewish system of law, also referred to as Halacha, includes a civil and criminal justice system which is followed by observant Jews. Halacha regulates Jewish life, such as marriage and divorce, burial, relationships with non-Jews and education.

As is true with adherents of all religions, the degree to which individual Jews observe Jewish laws and traditions varies.

Among the practices of observant Jews are:

1. Dietary Laws
Strict Jewish law requires that Jews may not eat certain foods, such as pork, certain seafood, or food without the blood removed, and may not mix dairy and meat products at the same meal. These laws also describe how animals must be slaughtered so as to minimize suffering.
2. Jewish Calendar
Jewish law utilizes both a lunar and solar calendar to set the dates of holidays. The dates of holidays and festivals are determined by a lunar calendar, which is based on the phases of the moon. The time from new moon to new moon is 29 days, 12.75 hours. Jewish months are thus either 29 or 30 days. Because a solar year is 365.25 days and a lunar year is about eleven days shorter (12 times 29.5), adjustments are made to the Jewish calendar to assure that holidays remain within the same season (which themselves are solar-based calculations rather than lunar) every year. A lunar month is inserted as a "leap month" as a part of this adjustment, with a total of seven months being added every 19 years.
The Jewish Sabbath and holidays traditionally begin at sunset the evening before the day the Sabbath or holiday is observed. Thus the Jewish holiday of Rosh Hashanah in 1990 was observed September 21st and 22nd, but began at sunset on September 20th.

3. Sabbath and Festival Observance
The fourth of the ten commandments is "Remember the Sabbath Day and Keep it Holy" (Exodus 20:8). Observant Jews do not perform any work on the Sabbath, which is spent in prayer and religious study. In addition to the Sabbath, Jews both in ancient times and today celebrate holidays and festivals, each of which have their own rituals associated with observance. Among these are:
Rosh Hashanah (New Year): Rosh Hashanah marks the new year of the Jewish calendar. It is both a joyous and a solemn holiday. Jews around the world do not work and do not attend school on that day. The ram's horn (shofar) is blown ritually to serve as the beginning of ten days of repentance which culminates in Yom Kippur.

Yom Kippur: This is the holiest day of the Jewish calendar. Jews do not go to work or to school on Yom Kippur, and refrain from eating or drinking for the entire holiday. It is considered by Jews to be the day in which every individual is judged by God, and thus it is a solemn day marked by prayer and repentance.

Passover: Passover is an eight-day festival commemorating the freeing of the Israelites from Egyptian bondage. A ritual feast on the first two nights of this holiday, called a Seder, includes the recounting of the Passover story. Ritual foods are eaten during these eight days which are not eaten at other times of the year. Observant Jews do not work or go to school the first two days and the last two days of this holiday.

Shavuot (Feast of Weeks): Shavuot is a festival which marks the giving of the Torah to the Israelites at Mt. Sinai by God. It is a two-day holiday which is often celebrated by having an all night study session on religious topics with friends. Observant Jews do not work or go to school on Shavuot.

Succot: Succot is a commemoration of the wandering of the Israelites in the wilderness before they received the Torah. It is also a commemoration of the final harvest before the winter rains. It is an eight-day holiday, and observant Jews do not work or go to school the first two days or the last day. It is customary to build a structure called a Succah as a symbol of the types of structures the Israelites lived in while they were wandering in the dessert.

Simchat Torah: Simchat Torah commemorates the conclusion and the beginning of the cycle of Torah readings which lasts one year. It occurs the day after Succot ends. Observant Jews do not work or go to school on Simchat Torah.

Hanukkah: Hanukkah is an eight-day holiday which marks the victory of the ancient Israelites, led by Judah Maccabee, over the Syrian-Greek army in 165 B.C.E. Traditionally, Jews light a candle for each night of this holiday until there are eight on the eighth day, plus an extra "shammash" candle. In recent times, it has become traditional to exchange gifts on this holiday. Although Hanukkah usually occurs during the time of Christmas, it is in no way a comparable holiday to Christmas for the Jews.

Purim: Purim is a minor festival of the Jewish calendar which commemorates the triumph of the Jews over a murderous plot by an advisor to King Ahasuerus in Persia in the fifth century B.C.E. It is a joyous holiday and is celebrated by reading the Megillah (a scroll which tells the story of Purim) by baking hamintaschen (triangular-shaped cookies containing jams) and by dressing up in costumes.

4. Ritual Clothing
For centuries, observant Jews have dressed differently than citizens of their host countries while engaged in secular and non-secular activities. During prayer, Jewish males have traditionally worn the following:
a. Skull cap (Kippah, yarmulka): head covering.

b. Phylacteries (Tefillin): these are small boxes containing Torah passages written on parchment with leather straps which are worn on the forehead and left arm during prayers.

c. Fringed Shawl (Tallit): these are worn during prayer.


5. Life Cycle Events

a. Circumcision (Bris) male Jewish children are circumcised on the eighth day after their birth as a sign of a covenant between Abraham and God. The boy is given his name at this ceremony.

b. Bar Mitzvah: at the age of thirteen, Jewish law considers boys to have reached adulthood. A special service is held in the boy's honor, and he is permitted to read from the Torah for the firs time. The comparable ceremony for girls is a Bat Mitzvah which varies in religious significance depending on the sect of Judaism.

c. Marriage and Divorce: at a marriage ceremony, observant Jews sign a marriage contract called a Ketuba. The Ketuba describes the conditions of marriage. The marriage ceremony, as in many other religions, has been ritualized and often includes the breaking of a glass by the groom to symbolize the destruction of the Temple. Jewish law recognizes divorce, made official by a document called a Get. Even if observant Jews obtain a civil divorce, the spouse is unable to remarry in the absence of obtaining a Get from a Jewish court.

d. Death and Mourning: upon the death of a Jew, the body is ritually washed and placed in a coffin for burial, generally the day after death. Loved ones observe a seven-day period of mourning called Shiva at which time religious services are held in the home of the bereaved. The anniversary of the death of a parent (Yahrzeit) is observed by lighting a candle and saying a prayer (Kaddish) in memory.

A Brief History of the Jewish People
The history of the Jews, as described in the Bible, begins with the patriarch Abraham. Abraham was the first to forsake the polytheism and idol worshipping of his people for a belief in one God. Abraham's son, Isaac, and Isaac's son, Jacob, are also considered to be patriarchs by the Jews. The story of Joseph, one of Jacob's twelve sons, is also found in the Bible. He was sold as a slave to the Egyptians by his own brothers. As a result of a famine, the remainder of Joseph's family resettled in Egypt where they and their descendants lived in peace for several generations. However, in approximately 1580 B.C.E., a new Pharaoh (ruler) in Egypt felt threatened by the Jews as well as other peoples who had settled there, so he made them slaves.

In the Book of Exodus, the story of Moses and his liberation of the Jews from Egyptian bondage is told. Moses led the Jews out of Egypt after the Egyptians were afflicted with ten plagues. The Israelites then spent 40 years wandering in the desert under Moses' leadership. While in the desert, Moses ascended Mt. Sinai and, according to tradition, returned with the Ten Commandments from God as well as the Torah. Moses died before the Israelites entered the "Promised Land" of Israel.

Following the death of Moses, the twelve tribes of Israel (one tribe descending from each of Jacob's twelve sons) were led by Joshua into the Promised Land, then inhabited by the Canaanites. After capturing Jericho, the Israelites systematically conquered the rest of Israel. Challenges from Canaanites and Philistines were repelled, the latter people suffering a defeat at the hands of Samson.

The Israelites, seeking an alternative to theocratic leadership, convinced the religious leader at the time, the prophet Samuel, to anoint a king. The first king was Saul (1020-1000 B.C.E.), a member of the tribe of Benjamin, who won victories over the Ammonites and the Philistines. However, Samuel became disillusioned over the autocratic way King Saul ruled the country. Instead of passing leadership of the nation onto Saul's son, Jonathan, Samuel secretly anointed David, a member of the tribe of Judah, as Israel's second king. David had won renown as the warrior who had slain the giant Goliath. David was the eventual victor of a power struggle, which eventually made him king over all of Israel. During David's reign, the Israelites captured Jerusalem and made it both their religious and secular capital.

The heir to King David's throne was Solomon, the son of the King and Bath-Sheba. King Solomon's reign (961-922 B.C.E.) was peaceful. He was noted for lavish building projects, including the First Temple in Jerusalem. There was discontent among the tribes which settled in the north concerning the heavy taxation and forced labor policies of King Solomon, which he felt necessary to create his lavish palaces and public buildings.

Following his death, the ten northern tribes broke away and established their own kingdom, while the tribes of Judah and Benjamin remained loyal to Solomon's successor, King Rehoboam. The capital of the Northern Kingdom was established in Samaria, and the capital of the Southern Kingdom remained in Jerusalem, the historic city in Judah under Jewish control.

In 722 B.C.E., Samaria was conquered by the Assyrians. The fate of the Jews of Samaria is unknown, and they are referred to as the "Ten Lost Tribes of Israel."

In 598 B.C.E., Judah was invaded by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylonia. Much of the population of the Israelites was sent into exile in Babylonia. Jerusalem itself fell under siege in 586 B.C.E. and was destroyed. The destruction of the First Temple of Jerusalem is commemorated by the Fast of Tishah be-Av, the ninth of the Jewish month of Av. In exile, the Israelites found themselves to be able to participate in the economic and social life of their new land, and to reorganize and maintain Jewish life. When the Persians conquered Babylon in 538 B.C.E., the Persian King Cyrus permitted all conquered peoples to return to their homelands. About 50,000 Jews returned to Judah, although many stayed in Babylon, having established a new life there.

After several decades of delays, the Second Temple was built and dedicated in 516 B.C.E.

Following centuries of relative peace and calm in which the ancient land of Israel was ruled by the Egyptians, the Syrians gained the upper hand in 198 B.C.E. At first, Syrian rule was benign. When Antiochus IV Epiphanes began his rule, he sought to forbid the practice of Judaism in favor of Hellenism. He required the erection of a statue of the Greek god Zeus in the Temple, which kindled a revolt. The military commander for the Jews was Judah Maccabee, who overcame a superior force of highly equipped Syrians to win several battles. Following these victories which bordered on the miraculous, Judah Maccabee reentered the Temple, cleansed it of its desecrations, and rededicated it. The Festival of Hanukkah commemorates these victories.

Triumph over the Syrians was short-lived. The Roman Empire engulfed the area, and with brief exceptions, controlled what became known as Palestine for almost 700 years. King Herod (37-4 B.C.E.) ruled over Judah with the sanction of the Roman Senate. He was a master builder, creating magnificent temples, public works, ports and palaces. The ruins of many of his works, including the reconstructed Second Temple, may still be viewed today.

The Jews revolted against Roman rule in 70 C.E. After a siege, the Second Temple was destroyed (once again, on the 9th of Av of the Jewish calendar) and resistance was crushed except for a company of zealots who took over a fortress at Masada, near the Dead Sea. The Roman army tried for three years to crush that resistance. When defeat of the revolt was inevitable, the defenders drew lots and killed themselves rather than surrender. Jerusalem was restored by the Romans as a pagan city.

The focus of Jewish intellectual life following the destruction of the Second Temple was established in Yavneh. Jewish scholars met here and during the end of the second century and beginning of the third established an oral Jewish law to complement the Torah. This oral law was written down at the end of the second century C.E. by R. Judah ha-Nasi, and is known as the Mishnah. Discussion on the Mishnah was also put to writing, and is known as the Gemara. The Mishnah and Gemara together are called the Talmud. The Jewish scholars in Babylon also developed a Talmud, which eventually supplanted the Palestinian version as the ultimate authority in Jewish legal matters. New centers of Jewish scholarship were established in the diaspora, principally in North Africa and Muslim Spain by the end of the 10th century.

Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire at the beginning of the fourth century. Jewish legal rights were restricted. During the first three centuries of Christianity, the issue that separated Jew from Christian was whether Jesus was the true Messiah. By the beginning of the fourth century, Christianity had evolved with customs, rituals and laws far different from Judaism.

Palestine was conquered by the Arabs in the 7th century. Many Jews served in the Arab armies which conquered the Iberian peninsula, and settled in Spain. For centuries, Jews flourished in Spain and North Africa, and recorded achievements in science, medicine, music, philosophy and culture.

Jewish life in the Middle Ages was for the most part a story of social and economic isolation, persecution and massacres. Jews were isolated both physically and socially from the fabric of life in the Middle Ages and the period following the Middle Ages. Yet they filled an important niche. Christianity outlawed usury, the lending of money. Jews were permitted to fill this vacuum by acting as moneylenders and financiers.

GhettosAt first, Jews in the diaspora segregated voluntarily. This was partly for self-protection, but it was perhaps more the result of the requirements of the Jewish religion: to be close to a synagogue and other religious institutions. The concept of segregating Jews involuntarily behind walls was developed in ancient times, but it was not actually implemented as a policy until 1462 in Frankfurt, Germany. The idea caught on in the rest of Europe and became the norm in the 16th century. Unlike its modern 20th century counterpart, the ghetto of 16th century Europe permitted Jews to leave during the day and do their business. While the ghettos permitted Jews to live peacefully, conditions were often crowded and inadequate. However, the isolation of Jews in ghettos had the effect of eliminating assimilation with the host communities, and preserved and enhanced the survival of the Jewish culture.
Those governments unwilling even to tolerate Jews who were segregated in ghettos expelled them. At one time or another, all Jews were expelled from England (1290), France (1306 and 1394), Austria (1420), and Spain (1492). There were local expulsions throughout Europe including those in Germany. Some expulsion policies were reversed when governments realized that the Jews served a useful purpose.

It was not until the Enlightenment (see Chapter 5) that Jews had the opportunity to participate in modern society free from persecution. The fundamentalist acceptance of Jewish law underwent a severe challenge, and the result was the development of reformist movements which eventually culminated in the establishment of Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist movements.

Jewish culture developed for 2,000 years in pre-World War II Europe. Jews of both Western and Eastern Europe created a culture of religious practice, arts and music, language (principally Yiddish), and education. It was an entire culture which the Nazis sought to make extinct.

There were distinct differences in the cultures of Jews who settled in the "East" and "West" in the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries. Generally, Jews who settled in Western Europe (France, Holland, Germany, Austria, and Italy, for example) were more assimilated than their "eastern" counterparts of the Soviet Union, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Rumania, and Hungary. They were more likely to speak the language of their host nation, less likely to be religiously observant, more likely to intermarry, more likely to be urban settlers, more likely to be middle-class, more likely to be formally educated, and more likely to affiliate with generic political parties which represented more than just Jewish interests. Western European Jews were more likely to be accepted by their host countries as full citizens. For the most part, they were able to live side by side with their non-Jewish neighbors, free from the threat of physical attacks and anti-Semitism. Eastern European Jews did not feel safe from pogroms. For many Jews in Western Europe, they were Jewish by religion, but identified with their host country. Thus, when the Jews of Germany were targeted by the Nazis, most of them had a history of feeling that they were "German" rather than "Jewish."

History of Israel
By the end of the 19th century, Jewish nationalism emerged as a prevailing dream. This movement, known as Zionism, envisioned a return of all Jews from the diaspora to a Jewish homeland. In the 1880s, Eastern European Jews made their way to what was then called Palestine. This was the first Aliyah (immigration) wave, the purpose of which was largely to establish agricultural settlements. Baron Edmond de Rothschild assisted with funds. The first Zionist Conference was held in Basel, Switzerland, in 1897, under the leadership of Theodor Herzl. It took another 51 years and the experience of the Holocaust, though, to see the Zionist dream become a reality. As a result of this official sanction for a Jewish homeland by the League of Nations, Jews were encouraged to immigrate to Palestine. The Arabs opposed Jewish settlement and there were many anti-Jewish attacks.
In 1905, a second Aliyah wave brought Jews from Russia. Tel Aviv was founded in 1908, the first all-Jewish city.

In 1917, with the British defeat of the Ottoman Empire, Palestine came under British rule. The modern Arab states were established at that time. In November 1917, in the Balfour Declaration, the British government announced its intention to facilitate the "establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." This Declaration was endorsed by the Supreme Council of the Principal Allied Powers at a Conference in San Remo on April 24, 1920. In 1922, the League of Nations granted to Great Britain a Mandate to secure the establishment of a Jewish homeland, to facilitate Jewish immigration and to encourage Jewish settlement on the land. By 1929 the Jewish population in Palestine was 160,000, and by the spring of 1936, with the advent of Hitler and increased German immigration, there were close to 400,000 Jews, or about 30 percent of the total population.

In 1939, the British, influenced by the Arab uprisings and the Mufti of Jerusalem, issued the White Paper, which limited Jewish immigration to 10,000 per year for five years, with any further Jewish immigration to be made only with Arab consent.

At the close of World War II, the "Palestinian Question" came before the General Assembly of the United Nations. It recommended that the British Mandate be ended and that Palestine be divided between the Arabs and Jews. On November 29, 1947, the General Assembly partitioned the country into two independent, sovereign states.

On May 14, 1948, the British government terminated its Mandate. The day after, May 15, 1948, the British left the country, and David Ben-Gurion, on behalf of the Jewish Agency, declared the independence of the State of Israel.

Contributions of the Jewish People to Civilization
As individuals and as a people, Jews have had a great impact on civilization, contributing to ideas and culture in every field of human endeavor. Judaism was a parent religion to Christianity and Islam. Jesus was a Jew, as were his disciples. The Hebrew Scriptures were the foundation of Christianity. Jewish law was accepted as a guide to ethics and morality based on the concept of individual conscience. Islam incorporated the Jewish concept of one God, the Scriptures, and Jewish prophets.

The whole thing, or just this recent flare up?

The whole thing.....

The whole thing.....
Oh sure, so you can steal it and bring world peace all on your own? :gf: :hihi:

Granted, many of the problems in the Middle East pre-date the USA by a few thousand years...but the current environment has been shaped and dramatically influenced by Western and Asian free markets and governments.

Additionally, it's precisely our dependence on energy that empowers Middle Eastern leaders to silence their people and use centuries old tensions to distract them from self empowered solutions.

Look at what happened in Dubai. They ran out of oil, opened up their markets and whamo, they are a comercial success.

The people feel they have been shafted the past 60 years, buy the West and by their own leaders...and to be honest, they do have a point.

The only option many have is to weigh a radical and progressive option being sold under the guise of Sharia Law.

So this may not be a comprehensive solution...but some quick thoughts.

Believe it or not, in principal I do agree with some neoconservative thinking.

American leadership would be a stabalizing force throughout the world, but to do so forcefully without the guiding reason of our founding fathers...which is exactly what we've been doing the past 6 years ...is proving and will continue to be a disaster.

We must confront our pending energy crisis to remove the crutch of brutal and oppressive regimes.

We must end containment based foreign policy to bring rouge nations and groups into the Global economy.

We must always lead by example as our moral high ground is perhaps our most valuable asset. It allows us to act with impunity when it is necessary...but like Austin Powers mojo, it's tragically lost...and we're nearly impotent.

As I said in my rant the other day, the solution to many of our problems lies in the magic that's America, but we're to terrified by our own leadership to see it.

-spence

Thank you Dad fisherman for enlightning me with such useful knowledge. So after this whole ordeal, can you explain why the Jews deserve the land of Isreal? I mean you don't see Yamamano Indians getting much of Brazil back. And if I'm not wrong they took a big chunk of Palestine and left the Palestinians with a small strip of sand.
It seems as though Isreal was given the land without consideration towards the Arabs or their religion.

I wish to be enlightened some more... If the Jews didn't kill Jesus then who did? Was it the Romans or maybe the Muslims?

It seems as though Isreal was given the land without consideration towards the Arabs or their religion.
To some degree that's true. The Palestinians did fight along side the Britts under the assumption they would be rewarded in the future.

Although the situation with the Nazis did change things quite a bit. I believe there were a few options for where to create a homeland, but the push to reclaim their old lands was marketed at the right levels.

I believe over anxious Zionisim made the matter worse, along with a refusal among the Arab League to sanction the process...leading to the war in 47-48.

I wish to be enlightened some more... If the Jews didn't kill Jesus then who did? Was it the Romans or maybe the Muslims?
Ask Mel Gibson :hee: :humpty: :hihi: :fishslap: :yak:

-spence

Ask Mel Gibson :hee: :humpty: :hihi: :fishslap: :yak:

-spence


Since you broke the barrier do you think its time for that special planet post? Though who would have all the service contracts if not robots or cyborgs :hihi:

Since you broke the barrier do you think its time for that special planet post? Though who would have all the service contracts if not robots or cyborgs :hihi:
I have no idea what you're talking about :confused:

-spence

I have no idea what you're talking about :confused:

-spence


just pretend as usual :bshake:

Actually, it was the Romans.

I'm curious where you get your alternate version of history?

-spenceI'm no biblical scholar or anything, but wasn't Pontius Pilat the Roman Dictate who washed his hands of Jesus since he said he could find no guilt with him....and then turned him over to the Jewish high priests to "do as you please with him"...?? Sure, it is written that the Roman soldiers carried out the crucifixtion, but wasn't that because by law only the state could carry out a death sentence? Wasn't it actually the Jewish religious leaders who fated Christ to death?

BTW - I am a Christian that has deep sympathies for the Jewish people.....so I am not Jew-hating here.....and do not blame the Jews for Christ's death....I actually thank them for their role in it, as accordingly to my beleifs, it means I can now enter into Heaven....just my thoghts when I saw you write that the Romans killed Jesus.

And BTW, don't we have the Brits to blame for most of this mess.....after all, it was all their Empire at one time....it was their broken promise to the Arabs (Palestinians) that they would get their homeland back if they fought with the Allies during WWII....and then they turn around and give it to the Israelies instead......anyone else remember Laurence of Arabia..??

I'm no biblical scholar or anything, but wasn't Pontius Pilat the Roman Dictate who washed his hands of Jesus since he said he could find no guilt with him....and then turned him over to the Jewish high priests to "do as you please with him"...?? Sure, it is written that the Roman soldiers carried out the crucifixtion, but wasn't that because by law only the state could carry out a death sentence? Wasn't it actually the Jewish religious leaders who fated Christ to death?
I'm more matter of fact...the Romans killed Jesus.

Certainly many will argue that the Jews were so afraid of this progressive troublemaker that they used their influence to silence him.

But if Jesus was sent to Earth specifically to die for our sins it would seem that the Jewish leaders were just playing a supporting role.

This is important as the notion that the "Jews killed Jesus" has been used by many anti-semetic groups to incite their followers.

-spence

I'm more matter of fact...the Romans killed Jesus.
Yes, you see we can both be right and still have different answers....sounds a lot like the current situation in the Middle East....the classic definition of a dilemma.

The Roman soldiers carried out the physical crucifixtion of Jesus based on the Jewish leaders request for it.....and given that the Jews could not do it as it would be against Roman law to do so.

So who is to blame for the death of Jesus? If you ask the Palestinians, I am sure that somehow they would blame the US for the death of Jesus.....:biglaugh:

I wish to be enlightened some more... If the Jews didn't kill Jesus then who did? Was it the Romans or maybe the Muslims?


I'm Glad you were blessed with knowledge....No thanx are necessary.

And to help with your Enlightenment....this is from AmericanCatholic.org

Who Killed Jesus?


by Daniel J. Harrington, S.J.


Who killed Jesus? This simple question needs and deserves a careful answer. Throughout the centuries some have responded that the Jews killed Jesus, and therefore they are a "deicide" people. The word "deicide" means to kill God. Since Jesus is divine and since the Jews killed Jesus, therefore they must be a deicide people. This "logic" sometimes gave Christians a rationale and a motive for killing Jews. One result of this tradition was the Nazi Holocaust or Shoah. The hideous results of a careless answer to a simple question prove the need for taking the issue with utmost seriousness.

The Sources

The only ancient sources that we have for who killed Jesus are the passion narratives in the four Gospels: Mark 14—15, Matthew 26—27, Luke 22—23, and John 18—19. The four accounts agree on many basic points. They tell us that Jesus was arrested, underwent two hearings or trials, was sentenced to death by crucifixion, and died on the cross. Mark's account seems to have been the earliest; indeed, large blocks of it may have existed even before the Gospel's composition around a.d. 70. Matthew followed Mark closely, though he did add some (perhaps traditional) material. Luke too used Mark as a source but included more material. John represents a separate tradition, while agreeing with Mark on many matters.

None of the Evangelists set out to write a detailed chronicle of the day Jesus died. All of them provide some reliable historical details. But their real interest lay in the theological significance of Jesus' death for us and for our sins, and how his death took place according to the Scriptures.

A modern historian who sets out to determine who killed Jesus is like a detective. To solve a case, a good detective needs to assemble the evidence and look for details that may provide a window into what really happened. By sifting the evidence and noticing especially what does not fit, a historian/detective can arrive at a reasonable hypothesis on which to build a case.

Historical Responsibilities

The best clue toward determining who killed Jesus is the mode of Jesus' death—by crucifixion. In Jesus' time crucifixion was a Roman punishment inflicted mainly on slaves and revolutionaries. The usual Jewish mode of execution was stoning, as in the case of Stephen (see Acts 7:54-60). Crucifixion was a cruel and public way to die. As a public punishment, it was meant to shame the one being executed and to deter the onlookers from doing what he had done.

The official who had the power to execute Jesus by crucifixion was the Roman governor or prefect. In Jesus' time the prefect was Pontius Pilate, who held that position between a.d. 26 and 36. Jesus was put to death "under Pontius Pilate" around a.d. 30. Although the Gospels present Pilate as indecisive and somewhat concerned for justice in Jesus' case, the Alexandrian Jewish writer Philo (a contemporary of Jesus) described him as "inflexible, merciless, and obstinate."

All four Gospels recount a proceeding or hearing in which Jesus appeared before Pontius Pilate. According to Mark 15:1-15 (see also Matt 27:11-26; Luke 23:1-25), the Roman governor questioned Jesus and offered the crowd a choice between Barabbas and Jesus. The crowd at the urging of the chief priests called for Barabbas to be released and for Jesus to be crucified. Pilate bows to pressure, and "after he had Jesus scourged, handed him over to be crucified" (Mark 15:15). John's elaborate account of Jesus' trial before Pilate (John 18:28—19:16) ends in the same way, with Pilate handing Jesus over to be crucified (John 19:16).

The official charge against Jesus appears in the inscription placed on the cross: "The King of the Jews" (Mark 15:26; John 19:19). To Christian readers, this title ironically expresses the truth that Jesus really was the Messiah of Jewish expectations—the anointed one who is king, priest, and prophet. To Pilate and his Jewish collaborators, however, Jesus was one in a series of Jewish religious-political rebels bent on destroying the Roman empire and the status quo at Jerusalem in the name of the kingdom of God. These Jewish messiah-figures described by the Jewish historian Josephus in his Jewish Antiquities (especially in Books 17, 18 and 20) often used religious symbols and traditions to gain a popular following and to begin an uprising. The Roman governors dealt with them swiftly and brutally.

Jesus did not die alone. Rather, he was crucified along with two men described in various translations as "thieves," "bandits," "rebels," or "revolutionaries." The Greek term being translated in each case is lestes—the word applied to Barabbas who was "in prison along with the rebels who had committed murder in a rebellion" (Mark 15:7). It apparently referred not so much to petty thieves as to social bandits or revolutionaries of a "Robin Hood" type who resisted the Roman officials and their Jewish collaborators. While the Evangelists are careful to assert that Jesus was not a lestes ("Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs, to seize me?" Mark 14:48), the fact that Pilate offered a choice between Barabbas and Jesus, and then had Jesus crucified as "the King of the Jews" along with two lestai indicates that Pilate viewed Jesus as another Jewish religious-political troublemaker.

And so the mode of death (crucifixion), the legal system in force (with Pilate as having ultimate authority in capital cases), the official charge against Jesus ("the King of the Jews"), and the identity of those crucified with Jesus (lestai) all point in the same direction. The ultimate legal and moral responsibility for Jesus' death lay with Pontius Pilate, the Roman prefect of Judea between a.d. 26 and 36. Pontius Pilate killed Jesus.

The Roman soldiers carried out the physical crucifixtion of Jesus based on the Jewish leaders request for it.....and given that the Jews could not do it as it would be against Roman law to do so.
Didn't Jesus know he would be betrayed?

I'm not trying to argue semantics, but rather that in this context it has nothing to do with the root cause.

-spence

And so the mode of death (crucifixion), the legal system in force (with Pilate as having ultimate authority in capital cases), the official charge against Jesus ("the King of the Jews"), and the identity of those crucified with Jesus (lestai) all point in the same direction. The ultimate legal and moral responsibility for Jesus' death lay with Pontius Pilate, the Roman prefect of Judea between a.d. 26 and 36. Pontius Pilate killed Jesus.
They both killed Jesus......

Didn't Jesus know he would be betrayed?Exactly....betrayed by the Jews....so why do you hold fast to the idea that only the Romans killed Jesus..??:whackin:

They both killed Jesus......


Kinda like the Pamela Smart Syndrome...:hee:

I'll give ya that....The jews had their part in it as well.

Exactly....betrayed by the Jews....so why do you hold fast to the idea that only the Romans killed Jesus..??:whackin:
Ok, now you're really making a stretch...

So the moral of Judas is that the Jews were out to get Jesus? Don't think so...

I'm sure a Biblical scholar would argue that is was SATAN who killed Jesus anyway, for Satan is the cause of our sins which Jesus died for.

I know the Bible is a long book, but this is a pretty critical element to the story! :hee:

-spence

So the moral of Judas is that the Jews were out to get Jesus? Don't think so...Spence - I think you are mis-understanding me.....I never said the Jews were out to get Jesus....but, there is NO question historically nor biblically that YES - the Jewish priests were out to get Jesus....no question about that one, and that they brided Judas to betray Jesus....it wasn't the Romans who bribed Judas....again no question about these facts.

Yes the Bible is a critical element to the story......which I have read many times cover to cover....

Spence - I think you are mis-understanding me.....I never said the Jews were out to get Jesus....but, there is NO question historically nor biblically that YES - the Jewish priests were out to get Jesus....no question about that one, and that they brided Judas to betray Jesus....it wasn't the Romans who bribed Judas....again no question about these facts.
Homerun, think like a consultant...do your root cause analysis :)

-spence

Homerun, think like a consultant...do your root cause analysis Okay Spence (Mr. Consultant)....you tell us then....what was the root cause of Jesus' death then...? The Romans? I don't think so....:wall:

Okay Spence (Mr. Consultant)....you tell us then....what was the root cause of Jesus' death then...? The Romans? I don't think so....:wall:
The root cause was Satan as I indicated above.

Judas didn't betray Jesus because he was Jewish, it's because he was guided by evil...the Bible spells this out pretty clearly.

The Jewish leadership that was threatened by Jesus was afraid of his popularity...it was about power, and more Satan.

Granted, the entire thing from birth on up was rigged...which is why I really don't understand all this emotion for the Passion.

-spence

Actually, isnt the root casue of Jesus' death, God? Isnt that the fufillment of God's plan? Without Jesus's death, whats the point? you'd have just another prophet. Christianity, as I understand it believes Jesus died for there sins, no death, no Christianity.

Actually, isnt the root casue of Jesus' death, God? Isnt that the fufillment of God's plan? Without Jesus's death, whats the point? you'd have just another prophet. Christianity, as I understand it believes Jesus died for there sins, no death, no Christianity.
Good point...

But I think God sent Jesus to earth on the assumption that Satan would cause his betrayal.

Given that he or she is omnipotent, they might have been fairly certain of this...but still it was a way to mitigate sin :)

-spence

Who is the Angel of Light and who do many diverse peoples believe rules now?

Who is the Angel of Light and who do many diverse peoples believe rules now?
Smells like a #^&#^&#^&#^& Cheney tangent :humpty:

-spence

The root cause was Satan as I indicated above.

Judas didn't betray Jesus because he was Jewish, it's because he was guided by evil...the Bible spells this out pretty clearly.

The Jewish leadership that was threatened by Jesus was afraid of his popularity...it was about power, and more Satan.

Granted, the entire thing from birth on up was rigged...which is why I really don't understand all this emotion for the Passion. True....it was rigged from the very beginning, as it was supposed to be.....Jesus was said to have come here for a very specific pre-determined (your term "rigged") purpose....hence the term "prophecies"......but that DOES NOT leave people with no accountability for their actions....you seem to be saying that the devil made the Jews and Romans do it, so therefore they are not to be held accountable....I believe God gave us free-will to test how strong we would hold up against the temptations of Satan....and to then hold us accountable for our actions. Judas didn't have to betray Jesus no matter how tempted he was to do it. That was a choice.

Please don't say that Satan is the root cause of Jesus' death, because that makes no sense to me.....why would Satan want Jesus dead, when it was Jesus' death and resurrection that would open up the doors of eternal life for all mankind.....Jesus' death is the EXACT opposite of what Satan would have wanted IMO. People wanted Jesus dead, not Satan.

But why did "people" want Jesus dead?

-spence

Jesus' death is the EXACT opposite of what Satan would have wanted IMO. People wanted Jesus dead, not Satan.
I don't think Satan thinks this stuff through...he's a hell raiser (pun intended) simply out to create chaos.

From what I hear he's a lot like Clammer :laugha:

-spence

From what I hear he's a lot like Clammer Now THAT is something we can agree upon......:hee: :hee:

My Dad always told me, never discuss religion and politics,,,,,now here they are in the same thread!


:hang:

Wow, this is thread is becoming really interesting and fun to read. What a great way to pass through work... So the arguements are here are as, the Jews were possessed by Satan therefore sending Jesus back home. So if we're not to blame the Jews then blame Satan because it is for he who possessed them to sin.

Let me try to apply this to politics...

Let's say terrorists in general are possessed by the Satan so when they terrorize, then they aren't to blame because it is for Satan who possessed them. The same can be applied to psychotic murderers I guess...

eyh, what a Load of b#ll!

so back to the original point....

If I am tried in court by a jury and sentenced to death, who "killed" me? The jurors?
I would say the state executed me. I believe the same applies to Jesus. His peers (Jews) called for his execution, however the Roman government carried it out. Thus, they killed him.

Let me try to apply this to politics...

Let's say terrorists in general are possessed by the Satan so when they terrorize, then they aren't to blame because it is for Satan who possessed them. The same can be applied to psychotic murderers I guess...
No, there's a big difference...

The root cause of Jesus' death is part of an allegory meant to provide a moral lesson. Note: I don't take a literal interpretation of the Bible.

And our legal system is heavily influenced by elements of Biblical inspired morality that's detached from the dogma of the Bible.

This isn't to argue moral relativisim, but I can't compare spiritual teaching with reality in a literal sense.

-spence

I know spence... I was being outta the element as usual. So, bottomline the Romans are responsible for the killing of Jesus because they carried it out according to Jimmy. But the Jews helped the Romans make the decision because they fear Jesus' power, so they must be made accountable right? I'll give a better example...

Hypothetically, a wife conspiracize with her boyfriend to wack her husband because she fear the consequence of the revelation of her affair. She is to blame to right? If so, then the same can be said for the Jews... (According to the Bible)

Hypothetically, a wife conspiracize with her boyfriend to wack her husband because she fear the consequence of the revelation of her affair. She is to blame to right? If so, then the same can be said for the Jews... (According to the Bible)
It depends on your "moral reference frame" to be honest.

Under Roman law I'd wager they had the legal and moral authority to kill just about anyone if the powers that be saw fit.

In the end, they made the decision that killing Jesus was better than the potential social unrest he potentially would deliver if alive. This was their decision.

Certianly Jewish teaching would have forbid murder I'd think, but they seem to have found a loophole in the system.

You could draw a loose parallel to capitol punishment today. As a group we've decided that some are a such a threat to society they must be put to death...yet is there guilt among the jury?

I'd think the answer depends on the person.

-spence

Certianly Jewish teaching would have forbid murder I'd think


And God said to Abraham, take thy only son.....

Loopholes eh? As in a way for eating pork, compared to their Muslim neighbors who don't. As long as you bleed it, I guess it's fine! Jewish people are clever aren't they?

And God said to Abraham, take thy only son.....
Well, the Bible is full of deeply nuanced contradictions...hence why I don't agree with a literal interpretation.

According to the Bible we should stone gays and people who work on Sunday too :)

-spence

Edison dude, Edison.:humpty:

Loopholes eh? As in a way for eating pork, compared to their Muslim neighbors who don't. As long as you bleed it, I guess it's fine! Jewish people are clever aren't they?
Not all Jews follow tradition, just like most Muslims don't live under Sharia Law.

As for your clever comment, I'd advise not posting drunk...especially at 2:30am :rolleyes: :hihi:

-spence

And God said to Abraham, take thy only son.....

It would suck if Abraham was bi-polar.:bl:

It would suck if Abraham was bi-polar.:bl:
It would really suck if GOD were bi-polar!

-spence

According to the Bible we should stone gays and people who work on Sunday too We should only stone bosses who make people work on Sundays....:hee:

According to :http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14128276/page/2/


'At least 542 Lebanese have been killed since the offensive began, including 468 civilians and 28 Lebanese soldiers and at least 46 Hezbollah guerrillas. The health minister says the toll could be as high as 750, including those still buried in rubble or missing. Fifty-four Israelis have died — 36 soldiers as well as 18 civilians killed in Hezbollah rocket attacks.

The United Nations also warned that the longer a spill of 110,000 barrels of oil is not cleaned up from Lebanon’s coast, the more severe the environmental impact will be. The oil spilled two weeks ago after Israeli warplanes hit a coastal power plant.'

My great aunt who was an educator taught me not to believe everything you read and to be wary of that which you do believe :love:

Look at it this way, if Hezbolla layed down their arms tomorrow, there would be peace. If the Israelis laid down their arms there would be another holocost. That pretty much sums it up for me.

Look at it this way, if Hezbolla layed down their arms tomorrow, there would be peace. If the Israelis laid down their arms there would be another holocost. That pretty much sums it up for me.
Ahhh, that seems to be the Newt Gingrich line that's been floating around the net...

But it's nothing more than self serving rhetoric. The world isn't black and white...

-spence

Look at it this way, if Hezbolla layed down their arms tomorrow, there would be peace. If the Israelis laid down their arms there would be another holocost. That pretty much sums it up for me.

I was thinking of something very simular MM. But I suggested Isreal relocating to the US-Mexican Border. If that be the case then our borders would be safe from illegal Immigrants.

Ahhh, that seems to be the Newt Gingrich line that's been floating around the net...

But it's nothing more than self serving rhetoric. The world isn't black and white...

-spence

Are you saying that its not true?

Are you saying that its not true?
Yes, I think it's complete BS intended to present a black or white option...

-spence

Look at it this way, if Hezbolla layed down their arms tomorrow, there would be peace. If the Israelis laid down their arms there would be another holocost. That pretty much sums it up for me.

Right on, if Hezbolla would knock off the bull %$%$%$%$ Israel would have no reason to be doing what they are doing now. Israel doesnt want this crap, but in thier eyes they have no choice but to take action.

Spence,
O.K. what part of it do you disagree with. Do you think the Israelis would continue to attack hezbolla if they laid down their arms and said they wouldn't fight anymore? Or do you disagree that Hezbolla would overrun Israel and massacar the jews if they didn't put up a resistance?

I don't think Satan thinks this stuff through...he's a hell raiser (pun intended) simply out to create chaos.

From what I hear he's a lot like Clammer :laugha:

-spence

NO SPENCE, SATAN IS IS MOOOOOOORE LIKE YOU!!!
YOUR A REAL PAIN IN THE ASS!!

Spence,
O.K. what part of it do you disagree with. Do you think the Israelis would continue to attack hezbolla if they laid down their arms and said they wouldn't fight anymore? Or do you disagree that Hezbolla would overrun Israel and massacar the jews if they didn't put up a resistance?
I think the entire statement is bunk, here's my typical long winded response. It's so humid my fingers are sticking to the keyboard, and I can't get them free :)

Put simply, it's not an objetive statement. It's a wedge intended to influence people to one side only.

On that basis alone I reject it's value, because I don't want to be manupulated. by someone with an agenda.

It's unfortunate that our Puritan roots so easily push us into black or white decisions...but the real world is quite gray.

The reality is that the majority of Christian Arabs in the region support Hezbollah as a legitimate resistance organization formed in response to Israeli occupation.

Additionally, Hezbolla provides social and health programs for a very large population. This is in stark contrast to the holocost scenario presented in the statement.

That doesn't mean they're your perfect next door neighbor, certainly they're guilty of horrific acts. But Israel doesn't exactly have a clear record either, and from an Arab perspective...it's worse!

More to the point.

I believe that there are just as many uber Zionists who want to take all of the West Bank from the Palestenians as there are uber anti-semites who want to expell the Jews to the sea...a small number of both relatively speaking. This fight is being fueled by the extreme who want to position their man on deck for the end of days.

But both Jews and Arabs are perfectly capable of living side by side and in peace...they've done it throughout history and in they do it today, there are over 2 Million Arabs living in Israel right now.

Giving credence to the statement bolsters the positions of the radicals on both sides...and does nothing to help construct a meaningful solution.

-spence

Look at it this way, if Hezbolla layed down their arms tomorrow, there would be peace. If the Israelis laid down their arms there would be another holocost. That pretty much sums it up for me.

Stop quoting bad talk show hosts.

Im starting to wonder if some of you guys would've had trouble taking sides during WWII.

I can just hear Spence: well yeah Hitler is taking over half of Europe and slaughtering Jews, but he's done so much for Germany and restored confidence in the German people, so maybe he's just misunderstood and not an evil man like most assume :conf:

Once you recognize that radical islam and groups such as Hezbolah, Al Queada and Hamas are the new form of Nazism, it will be much easier for you to see the pure evil in these people, and stop making excuses for them. They are pure evil blood thirsty killers, and they would happily come into your house and mine and slaughter us as we sleep. Still wanna make excuses for these little scumbags?

They all need to die.

Have a good day....

Once you recognize that radical islam and groups such as Hezbolah, Al Queada and Hamas are the new form of Nazism, it will be much easier for you to see the pure evil in these people, and stop making excuses for them.
Skippy, Skippy, Skippy...

First off you're comparing apples and oranges.

Second, this isn't about making excuses...it's about an appreciation for the real root causes of the issues we face.

If a suicide bomber attacks the local coffee shop, do you respond by wishing to simply kill all muslims...

...or do you also ask yourself, what would drive a person to do this?

It's not as simple as good and evil, which is why we're not winning the "war on terrorisim".

-spence

Skippy, Skippy, Skippy...


If a suicide bomber attacks the local coffee shop, do you respond by wishing to simply kill all muslims...

-spence


Who the hell ever said to go kill ALL muslims? I support the killing of RADICAL muslims who wish to do me and others harm. Most people don't have an issue with peaceful muslims. Its the radical brain washed ones I and most people have issue with.

I know you think myself and anyone who supports the war on radical Islam wants all Muslims wiped off the map, but you know for a fact this isnt the case. Typical spin from the lefties

And maybe if other countries other than the US, Israel and Britian gave a rats ass about taking down radical islam and terroists we'd be alot further along in this war on terror. The rest of the world sits back and kisses the asses of these muslim countries that support terror. kinda like you! You'd rather we sit back and talk to to these thugs, the only thing they understand is FORCE. I know liberals hate to use force, but sometimes when you face a pure evil enemy, you have no choice but to use heavy force.

We either confront radical Islam head on now, or we'll be forced to deal with them again down the road, maybe after another 9/11 or two? they are NOT going away anytime soon unless we take the fight to them. If we dont, they'll be waiting to strike us again and again.

If a suicide bomber attacks the local coffee shop, do you respond by wishing to simply kill all muslims...

-spence


If I had been waiting in line and the coffee was good.... Yes! :tm:



Skip! Spence!

Skippy, Skippy, Skippy...

First off you're comparing apples and oranges.

Second, this isn't about making excuses...it's about an appreciation for the real root causes of the issues we face.

If a suicide bomber attacks the local coffee shop, do you respond by wishing to simply kill all muslims...

...or do you also ask yourself, what would drive a person to do this?

It's not as simple as good and evil, which is why we're not winning the "war on terrorisim".

-spence

Onyl the ones who vow to do it again. And there is plenty of them.

Onyl the ones who vow to do it again. And there is plenty of them.
Unless you can stop the flow of new recruits, there will always be plenty.

-spence

We either confront radical Islam head on now, or we'll be forced to deal with them again down the road, maybe after another 9/11 or two?
But Skipper, we're not "confronting" radical Islam at all, quite the contrary...we're doing much to empower it.

-spence

Unless you can stop the flow of new recruits, there will always be plenty.

-spence



and how is this done? seriously?

Isreal is in conflict with Hezbollah at the moment but let's not forget about Hamas. Isreal primary objective now is obviously to decentralize Hezbollah and 'with success to intimidate Hamas' (secondary objective). It's very unlikely Hamas and Hezbollah will join forces for they are rival tribes.

There will never be peace with Isreal and the Arab World. Grudge between the two is inevitable! There's a lot of Muslims to take out compared to Isrealites. Only thing keeping Isreal up is that they have big guns.

If the U.S. continue operations in the Middle East then there will be a WWIII, it's just a matter of time.

and how is this done? seriously?
Well, first you have to ask yourself...

Why do people strap bombs to themselves, or fly airplanes into buildings?

The profile seems to be young, and often educated Muslims.

So why do they do this?

-spence

We should seek by all means in our power to avoid war, by analysing possible causes, by trying to remove them, by discussion in a spirit of collaboration and good will.
Neville Chamberlain

There will never be peace with Isreal and the Arab World. Grudge between the two is inevitable!
It's that attitude that leads to rampant violence and dehumanization.

This is America, we're supposed to be more optimistic :)

-spence

Well, first you have to ask yourself...

Why do people strap bombs to themselves, or fly airplanes into buildings?

The profile seems to be young, and often educated Muslims.

So why do they do this?

-spence


Because we do give them reason for extreme responses.... what astrological sign are you Devil Man? :D

Spence ask, "Why do people strap bombs to themselves, or fly airplanes into buildings?"
Spence

Because thier stupid bassturds thats why. And there are too many cowards around recruiting the uneducated illiterate buffoons.

Spence one of the few things you have posted that I disagree with is in regard to MakoMike's post about what I think O'Reilly first spoke of about Israel laying down thier arms and thier wouldn't be another holocost. To think that Israel would not be obliterated is an absurdity.

Because thier stupid bassturds thats why. And there are too many cowards around recruiting the uneducated illiterate buffoons.
Swimmer, that simply isn't true...

Yes, there are examples (particularly in Palestine) where terror groups have prayed on the weak.

But the profile for a high-impact suicide terrorist is often college educated...

Do you think Mohammed Atta was a dunce? Certainly not...the 9/11 hijackers were not (to our knowledge) forced into anything...they used their free will to hurt others.

Spence one of the few things you have posted that I disagree with is in regard to MakoMike's post about what I think O'Reilly first spoke of about Israel laying down thier arms and thier wouldn't be another holocost. To think that Israel would not be obliterated is an absurdity.
Fair enough...

But remember that the various Palestenian terror groups have evolved as a reactive, not proactive presence. This isn't to lay blame.

-spence

Strapped with bombs I believe... Terrorist flying airplanes into buildings I do not. 9/11 isn't enough evidence that it was the works of terrorists. Too hard to this day to believe.

Well Spence, since you have all the answers, Pack you %$%$%$%$ and go to the middle east and straighten out all the trouble!!

Strapped with bombs I believe... Terrorist flying airplanes into buildings I do not. 9/11 isn't enough evidence that it was the works of terrorists. Too hard to this day to believe.

Dude, your retarded! I'm sure Mike P will go on another rampage and pull my post but i dont care. I cant believe someone can be such a moron and believe 9/11 was an inside job. You belong in the nut house!!

Dude, your retarded!
Wow that's intellectually refreshing...

I mean it's too fishy and I don't mean the ones that swim to believe that the black box in the planes all got destroyed but through all that destruction a terrorist passport of a man who's still alive survived unscaved.

Who do you think were in the planes? Any bodies found? Any DNA samples found? Where's the proof of who did it? Tell me Skip if I'm so retarded... Enlighten me : " "

BTW, it's "you're" not your

Spence, i need your help, i am totally confused with what you want to to with these terroists. I mean obviosly we can't sit back and do nothing or we'll get wacked again, and your saying we can't go after them because it will breed more hatred in the radical muslim world. And we certainly can't talk and reason with these nut cases. So what the hell is your plan???

Wow that's intellectually refreshing...

I mean it's too fishy and I don't mean the ones that swim to believe that the black box in the planes all got destroyed but through all that destruction a terrorist passport of a man who's still alive survived unscaved.

Who do you think was in the planes? Any bodies found? Any DNA samples found? Where's the proof of who did it? Tell me Skip if I'm so retarded... Enlighten me : " "

HAHAHA your a total nutcase! Sorry but i dont waste my time talking to complete wackos.... At least Spence has some good suggestions and is well informed (even though i dissagree with him lots!) but you my good friend, have some serious mental problems if you believe 9/11 was carried by the US Goverment, or whatever the hell you believe. get lost and take your wacko theries with you.

Well who's is nutty enough to rig presidential votes?

Rather be thinking like a nutcase than one who is ignorant. I bet you think there still weapons of mass destruction in Iraq to be found don't you?

have been my dreams of late..........

Well, first you have to ask yourself...

Why do people strap bombs to themselves, or fly airplanes into buildings?

The profile seems to be young, and often educated Muslims.

So why do they do this?

-spence

Why do we have to ask ourselves that question? It's like asking why the Kamakasi pilots during WWII did what they did. Its a pointless discussion, we don't need to understand them, we just need to kill them.

Spence, i need your help, i am totally confused with what you want to to with these terroists. I mean obviosly we can't sit back and do nothing or we'll get wacked again, and your saying we can't go after them because it will breed more hatred in the radical muslim world. And we certainly can't talk and reason with these nut cases. So what the hell is your plan???
If you read a thing I posted you'd know my plan :hihi:

I've never said we can't go after them...quite the opposite, there is a time and a place for some serious bloodletting.

But the reality is, we must be very careful of when and where as our actions regardless of intention can have negative impact.

To date, our actions have not been viewed as a Nation defending itsself from radical Islam. We are being percieved as Imperialists, not because they view Americans as bad, but because of our behavior.

And guys, quit the silly stuff...there's some good conversation in this thread :fishslap:

Skitter...that cartoon is most excellent :hee:

-spence

Why do we have to ask ourselves that question? It's like asking why the Kamakasi pilots during WWII did what they did. Its a pointless discussion, we don't need to understand them, we just need to kill them.
Mike, read what I've said above...

You can't kill them all, think Lucy and the Pie Factory !

Unless you understand why someone moves to the dark side, how can you ever stop the flow?

This has nothing to do with liberalisim, it's common sense and problem solving.

-spence

I'm basically d#^&#^&#^&#^&#^& out of this discussion, its too taxing, Just one final point reading the last several posts. I beleive 100% in what Mako Mike said, too me the issue is that simple. Spence, I'm sure you now this but many Nazis were EXTREMELY intelligent people. Also, Germany was a slum after WW1, the Nazis brought back many social services, a robust economy and reinstated the pride of the German people. That being said, they were HOMOCIDAL MANIACS bent on the genocide of a race, not just jews, all non-aryans they could get their hands on! Dont you think that everytime we bombed German cities, more kids signed up for the Hitler youth? How did we stop them, neogitation? By understanding the root cause of Nazism? We beat them by destroying them. By eliminating their ability to operate.
The same need to be done for radical Islam. We cannot use teh argument taht everytime teh enemy si confornted, it will bring new recruits, that is an element of all confrontations. It cannot be used as a strategy for defeating the enemy. Thats it for me, have fun!

Cant identify the source but the defininition seems to fit one side of the current issue.

Traditionally, appeasement is regarded as a naive policy that gives democracies the appearance of weakness and encourages Fascist powers in their attempts to construct empires. Its failure in preventing World War II coloured the diplomacy of the immediate post-war period and the decline into Cold War, and continues to impact upon the foreign policies of western nations today.

The only thing I would add is a policy of appeasement should be considered even more dangerous when the war has already begun, which it has.

I'm sure you now this but many Nazis were EXTREMELY intelligent people. Also, Germany was a slum after WW1, the Nazis brought back many social services, a robust economy and reinstated the pride of the German people. That being said, they were HOMOCIDAL MANIACS bent on the genocide of a race, not just jews, all non-aryans they could get their hands on! Dont you think that everytime webed bom German cities, more kids signed up for the Hitler youth? How did we stop them, neogitation? By understanding the root cause of Nazism? We beat them by destroying them. By eliminating their ability to operate.
The same need to be done for radical Islam. We cannot use teh argument taht everytime teh enemy si confornted, it will bring new recruits, that is an element of all confrontations. It cannot be used as a strategy for defeating the enemy.
Thanks for the well thought out remarks.

Again, I'm not advocating we don't confront the enemy. There are real terrorists and terrorist infrastructure that we should target and take out...

But the parallel with Nazi Germany is not accurate in my opinion.

I'm not a student of Nazi history, but I'd wager that the Hitler Youth were a propaganda tool driven from the top down, more than the product of a willing public.

In my opinion, the biggest flaw in your thinking (to be perfectly blunt :)) is the notion that terrorisim is driven by homocidal or irrational behavior.

A good book to read that goes into this in detail is "Imperial Hubris: Why the West is loosing the War on Terror" by Michael Scheuer.

-spence

I think the entire statement is bunk, here's my typical long winded response. It's so humid my fingers are sticking to the keyboard, and I can't get them free :)

Put simply, it's not an objetive statement. It's a wedge intended to influence people to one side only.

Isn't that the point of the discussion, to decide which side we should support?

On that basis alone I reject it's value, because I don't want to be manupulated. by someone with an agenda.

Manipulated? Agenda? Your opinon, as well as mine and all the other in this discussion won't matter one iota in the decision making process. If you want to debate the subject at least be ibtellecutualy honest.

It's unfortunate that our Puritan roots so easily push us into black or white decisions...but the real world is quite gray.

Black and white? The quote you are referring to isn't about black and white its about determining who is the responsible party for the current hostilities. But lets assume for a minute that we are trying to determine, who is right and who is wrong. what's wrong with that. Isn't that the real question anyway? We should support whomever we think is right. That's got nothing to do with out Puritan roots, my family came here long after the puritans and their mores have no influence over my positions. Its simply a matter of determining what is right for our country.

The reality is that the majority of Christian Arabs in the region support Hezbollah as a legitimate resistance organization formed in response to Israeli occupation.

You better go check your polling numbers again. The vast majority of the Marionite Christians in Lebabnon seem to support he Israeli side in the currnt imbroglio. The Marionite Christians fought the Hezbolla for years and years.

Additionally, Hezbolla provides social and health programs for a very large population. This is in stark contrast to the holocost scenario presented in the statement.

And how many of theos grateful recipients of their largesse are Jews? Seems to me the only thing thay have been doing for Jews is lobbing rockets at them.

That doesn't mean they're your perfect next door neighbor, certainly they're guilty of horrific acts. But Israel doesn't exactly have a clear record either, and from an Arab perspective...it's worse![/Quote}

Why do we have to lok at it from an Arab perspective? We should be trying to be objective about it.

[QUOTE=spence]More to the point.

I believe that there are just as many uber Zionists who want to take all of the West Bank from the Palestenians as there are uber anti-semites who want to expell the Jews to the sea...a small number of both relatively speaking. This fight is being fueled by the extreme who want to position their man on deck for the end of days.

In cae you missed the fact, the jews have withdrawn from the Gaza and were in the process of withdrawing from the west bank. So I guess those ultrazionists aren't represented byt he Israeli Government.

But both Jews and Arabs are perfectly capable of living side by side and in peace...they've done it throughout history and in they do it today, there are over 2 Million Arabs living in Israel right now.

Thanks you for proving my point. The jews are obviously willing to live with the arabs, its the arabs that want to crush the jews.

Giving credence to the statement bolsters the positions of the radicals on both sides...and does nothing to help construct a meaningful solution.


How do "construct a meaningful solution" with someone whoe expressed desire is to kill you?

Isn't that the point of the discussion, to decide which side we should support?
Not at all...it's about how we go about supporting the side we do.

Put simply, do you think Israel has the right, or that it's in our National interest for them to be given a "blank check" to respond to any threat however they choose?

This isn't about right and wrong, ultimately both sides share blame for where they are today.

Why do we have to lok at it from an Arab perspective? We should be trying to be objective about it.
This is a non-sequitor

In cae you missed the fact, the jews have withdrawn from the Gaza and were in the process of withdrawing from the west bank. So I guess those ultrazionists aren't represented byt he Israeli Government.
It's strategic positioning, Israel wasn't conceeding anything...and in case you missed the fact, Jewish settlers had to be removed from Gaza at gunpoint :)

Thanks you for proving my point. The jews are obviously willing to live with the arabs, its the arabs that want to crush the jews.
Now you're just stereotyping :)

How do "construct a meaningful solution" with someone whoe expressed desire is to kill you?
You're missing the point...the solution doesn't like with the extremists, it's with the masses in the middle...

And I'm not sure what polls you're looking at, but even Rush Limbaugh reported that the majority of Americans in Lebanon are Hezbollah supporters!

-spence

Why do we have to ask ourselves that question? It's like asking why the Kamakasi pilots during WWII did what they did. Its a pointless discussion, we don't need to understand them, we just need to kill them.

Japan style of Kamikaze was great honor to sacrifice one's life for a good cause. In doing so, one would reap many rewards in the afterlife. Kamikaze pilots of Japan wore formal uniforms for their Kamikaze mission. I beleive there's a tale that providing that honor will resurrect a God to banish the invaders from the land of Japan with a Tsunami caused by a Typhoon. The tale lived true but the Tsunami was 1 day too late as Japan was struck with Little Boy.

Germany on the other side followed Kamikaze missions influence by a tale that dates back the rule of Prussia. (Not sure how the story went because I felll asleep in the middle of the documentary)

Bottomline their motives were based on Prophecy. Same concept the Jews used to crucify Jesus. They were afraid of the prophet. I mean terrorist do, in the sake of Ji'had.

Spence, i need your help, i am totally confused with what you want to to with these terroists. I mean obviosly we can't sit back and do nothing or we'll get wacked again, and your saying we can't go after them because it will breed more hatred in the radical muslim world. And we certainly can't talk and reason with these nut cases. So what the hell is your plan???
Another thing, I believe when the issue of weapons of mass destruction around and there was threads for it, you were the one screaming like around about weapons of mass D in Iraq. So where are they now Skippy? Now who feels like a nutcase... You get out!

Another thing, I believe when the issue of weapons of mass destruction around and there was threads for it, you were the one screaming like around about weapons of mass D in Iraq. So where are they now Skippy? Now who feels like a nutcase... You get out!


I know you don't want to go down the iraq and WMD road, its a known fact that Iraq had WMD's and used them to slaughter the kurds. And its a fact that countries such as Britan, Russia and Israel to name a few, believed just like the US did, that Iraq was still producing or had plans to produce more WMD's. Oh yeah, and that pre dates George W. too. So don't go to the Bush lied card.

Please dispute these facts if you'd like, but you really cant.

have a wonderful day :)

Another thing, I believe when the issue of weapons of mass destruction around and there was threads for it, you were the one screaming like around about weapons of mass D in Iraq. So where are they now Skippy? Now who feels like a nutcase... You get out!


The fact is there were WMD in Iraq maybe still are. The big question as you said is "Where are they now"? And if you think anyone who believes that is a nutcase than you are refering to just about every intelligence agency, world leader, former Presidents, Presidential Candidates, Congressmen, Senators etc etc. I'm sure you can find someone who will deny they ever existed but they will also claim they were abducted by aliens.

I know you don't want to go down the iraq and WMD road, its a known fact that Iraq had WMD's and used them to slaughter the kurds. And its a fact that countries such as Britan, Russia and Israel to name a few, believed just like the US did, that Iraq was still producing or had plans to produce more WMD's. Oh yeah, and that pre dates George W. too. So don't go to the Bush lied card.

Please dispute these facts if you'd like, but you really cant.

have a wonderful day :)

This is so wrong....sorry Skip.

This is so wrong....sorry Skip.

Please share with us whats wrong? everything i mentioned really can't be disputed. But please try....

The kurds were never gassed?

Those countries didnt have the same opinion on iraq and WMD's? During the Clinton years too?

Clinton and other Dems during the Clinton years weren't saying Iraq was a threat?

Please tell us YOUR version of these known facts

Please share with us whats wrong? everything i mentioned really can't be disputed. But please try....
Yes, Skipper...it's true that Iraq had WMD, 15 years ago :rolleyes:

Everything else you said is taken out of context and therefore not a fact in the context you seem to be assuming. I could elaborate further...but you don't really seem to want to learn :hs: :huh:

-spence

Please share with us whats wrong? everything i mentioned really can't be disputed. But please try....

The kurds were never gassed?

Those countries didnt have the same opinion on iraq and WMD's? During the Clinton years too?

Clinton and other Dems during the Clinton years weren't saying Iraq was a threat?

Please tell us YOUR version of these known facts


I will not have a discussion of any weight with you until you study more. Now hit the books :wave:

Please share with us whats wrong? everything i mentioned really can't be disputed. But please try....

The kurds were never gassed?

Those countries didnt have the same opinion on iraq and WMD's? During the Clinton years too?

Clinton and other Dems during the Clinton years weren't saying Iraq was a threat?

Please tell us YOUR version of these known facts

The Kurds if I'm mistaken are Sunni Muslims and are nomads that inhabit the northern region of Iraq and mountainous areas throughout the Middle east. Like any other nomads, I believe they were quite the nuisance to the Arab World. Who cares about them?

Clinton's interest in Iraq was to have the UN inspect Iraq for WMD. Sadamn played his little game and Clinton tossed him some air strikes until Sadamn complied. Bush on the other hand invaded Iraq and succeeded in overthrowing the tyrant. It's a bit harsh isn't it? Bush just approached the situation the 'wrong' way.

What triggered the war? I don't believe it was WMD. It was the fact that Sadamn began to sell Iraq's oil in Euros instead of Dollars. His motive was to appreciate the Euro over the Dollar. Did it suceed? The Euro is currently .34 over the dollar. Iraq continues to sell oil in the Euro today.

This is the reason we haven't left Iraq today. Bush wants Iraq to have a steady government in hopes to influence Iraq to sell oil in US Dollars again. Big picture in the long run... Is it worth it? Nope! In Economics, governement intervention (that includes war) will boost GNP in the short run. But as in consuming alcohol, the alcohol is going to catch up to you if consumed too much. What does that mean? An economical hangover!

I don't believe we should intervene in Iraq or any other nation until we sort out our economical woes. Yes we're trillions of trillions in the hole!

Enjoy Skippy!

Oh and another thing, bet your bottom dollar that when the Euro eclipses the pound, England may or shall I say will join the EMU which will influence countries like Poland and Sweden to join. Once that happens, expect for a sudden lost of allies. Who will fight any war with us now?

Ahhh yes, Iraq is all about oil :rollem:

Ahhh yes, Iraq is all about oil :rollem:
:jester: :jester: :jester:

Skippy, IT'S ALL ABOUT THE OIL :eek:

Iraq, terrorisim etc...

-spence

I cannot think of any war that was not founded on aquiring natural resources no matter how it was wrapped up and presented to the public.


:lurk:

I could elaborate further...but you don't really seem to want to learn :hs: :huh:

-spence[/QUOTE]


This is such an elitest statement.

This is such an elitest statement.
On the surface, but given that in the past year Skippy hasn't appreciated to a damn thing I've said it's more than justified.

While I may not have all the answers (yet :)), I'll take my version of history up against his any time, any place :cheers:

-spence

On the surface, but given that in the past year Skippy hasn't appreciated to a damn thing I've said it's more than justified.

While I may not have all the answers (yet :)), I'll take my version of history up against his any time, any place :cheers:

-spence

Opinion vs. opinion...beliefs vs. beliefs. This is not a classroom.

Opinion vs. opinion...beliefs vs. beliefs. This is not a classroom.
Sorry Bronko but that's just a load of horse hockey.

Opinions are based on how you process what you percieve to be reality...

Some peoples version of reality has been heavily manipulated, I try my hardest to understand what's real and what's not.

For instance, the assertion that top Democratic Congresspeople are on the record stating Saddam's WMDs justify unilateral action as believed by many (due to out of context quotes circulated by the GOP) is a proveable falsehood when put in proper context.

The information is out there if people take the time to read it.

If someone like Skipper want to make this assertion to back their argument, I will correct them.

I would hope that others would do the same when I'm in error...

-spence

Sorry Bronko but that's just a load of horse hockey.

Opinions are based on how you process what you percieve to be reality...

Some peoples version of reality has been heavily manipulated, I try my hardest to understand what's real and what's not.

For instance, the assertion that top Democratic Congresspeople are on the record stating Saddam's WMDs justify unilateral action as believed by many (due to out of context quotes circulated by the GOP) is a proveable falsehood when put in proper context.

The information is out there if people take the time to read it.

If someone like Skipper want to make this assertion to back their argument, I will correct them.

I would hope that others would do the same when I'm in error...

-spence


This is why these threads spiral out of control. From this statement one must assume you know the truth or have the knowledge to teach. I guess Skip should assume that because you can spout your partisan whackery in a more eloquent fashion than he can then you are in some position to teach him? You have an OPINION, period.

His moniker is SkipN, not Skippy, Skipper or any other derivation you find cute. Let's keep the patronizing comments and erudite slights to a minimum.

From this statement one must assume you know the truth or have the knowledge to teach. I guess Skip should assume that because you can spout your partisan whackery in a more eloquent fashion than he can then you are in some position to teach him?
We're all in a position to teach each other...quite often I learn things I didn't know or am exposed to another viewpoint by what people say. I happen to respect and appreciate this.

I'm a partisan only in that I'm a fervent supporter of the "truth" which is grossly underrepresented today by both sides. The assumption that I deeply embrace liberal or progressive policy is a product of more manipulation and very small minded.

Do I preach? You bet...it's fun. If you don't like it don't read my posts...but when people make an attempt to seriously question what I'm sayinig I try to give them a well thought out response.

His moniker is SkipN, not Skippy, Skipper or any other derivation you find cute. Let's keep the patronizing comments and erudite slights to a minimum.

Skipper-py-loo knows I'm just having fun, perhaps when he has something worthwhile to say I'll start showing some respect :lasso:

:wid:

-spence

Skipper-py-loo knows I'm just having fun, perhaps when he has something worthwhile to say I'll start showing some respect :lasso:

-spence[/QUOTE]



I can try to explain it to you, but I can't make you understand it.:huh:

I can try to explain it to you, but I can't make you understand it.:huh:
Nice!

I'm being a bit irreverent on the Skipper stuff obviously, but regarding opinions and such...let's just say I disagree.

-spence

Nice!

I'm being a bit irreverent on the Skipper stuff obviously, but regarding opinions and such...let's just say I disagree.

-spence


:hee:

BAGHDAD (CNN) -- Tens of thousands of people marched through the streets of Baghdad on Friday, enthusiastically voicing support for Lebanon's Hezbollah militia.


This is what kills me, ten of thousands Iraquis rally when it comes to Isreal, why don't they rally about the thousands of Iraquis killed by other Iraquis? More Iraqi civilians have been killed by other Iraquis than any Arabs killed by Isrealis in the past 25yrs. Why dont the rally over to some shovels, start digging and build their country? Why dont the rally for ending sectarian violence?
IMHO, this is why we can never be successful, the only motivator for Arab muslims is a hate for Isreal. The extremists have capitalized on this and thrive on this to keep Hezzbolah and Al-Queda alive. There is no vision, no independent thought. Pretty Sad.

This is what kills me, ten of thousands Iraquis rally when it comes to Isreal, why don't they rally about the thousands of Iraquis killed by other Iraquis? More Iraqi civilians have been killed by other Iraquis than any Arabs killed by Isrealis in the past 25yrs. Why dont the rally over to some shovels, start digging and build their country? Why dont the rally for ending sectarian violence?
IMHO, this is why we can never be successful, the only motivator for Arab muslims is a hate for Isreal. The extremists have capitalized on this and thrive on this to keep Hezzbolah and Al-Queda alive. There is no vision, no independent thought. Pretty Sad.
I'm pretty certain that more Muslims have been killed by terrorisim than non-Muslims, by a wide margin.

Tom Friedman makes a great point in his last book "The World is Flat"...

Basically that countries like Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran etc... are able to avoid "taxing" their people because of state generated energy revenues... and without taxation there is no "representation."

As such, the people are not empowered, and their leadership keeps their focus elsewhere to avoid having to address their own inability to provide for their citizenry.

The assumption of the Iraq war architects was that Democracy is so universal, the Iraqi's would simply embrace their new freedom...

...but one must wonder if any of them ever really bothered reading their history texts.

-spence

good points spence

Spence...what did you study in college may I ask?.... and how many years did you spend there....where did you go....what degree(s) do you have and how old are you?

:hee:


also what is your favorite color? :hihi:

spence and skitter :love:

I could elaborate further...but you don't really seem to want to learn :hs: :huh:

-spence


This is such an elitest statement.[/quote]


I disagree.... Skip does not respond to others comments...he just repeatedly regurgitates.

spence and skitter :love:

So wrong....its me and Skip :devil2: or maybe you? :uhuh:

also what is your favorite color? :hihi:
Green, no blue!

-spence

So wrong....its me and Skip :devil2: or maybe you? :uhuh:

Way to much grab ass going on here today :tooth:

Jealous? :uhoh:


Here comes the regeneration of the Starfish Hizbollah..........

Shiites in the thousands protest Friday against Israel's campaign in Lebanon in a rally in Baghdad's Sadr City.

[QUOTE=Skitterpop]Jealous? :uhoh: QUOTE]

Nope, i'm not a fan of playing grab ass with other men, i don't go there, sorry!

Nope, i'm not a fan of playing grab ass with other men, i don't go there, sorry!
Skippy, deep down in your soul...there's a little part of ya that's just a bit curious isn't there? ;)

:devil:

-spence

[quote=Skitterpop]Jealous? :uhoh: QUOTE]

Nope, i'm not a fan of playing grab ass with other men, i don't go there, sorry!



Tease :lm:

Skippy, deep down in your soul...there's a little part of ya that's just a bit curious isn't there? ;)

:devil:

-spence

Maybe in your soul Spence, but certainly not mine! :)

I sense a menage argument developing here :chatter :chatter :chatter :chatter

I need to start a new thread :yak:

-spence