Interesting Article from the LA Times. It appears that 3 soldiers are charge with the rape of a 14 year old Iraqi girl and the murder of her and family. Statement from one of the soldiers "I want to kill and hurt a lot of Iraqis."

It appears that the war is taking toll on our soldiers and it's not a war against Muslim radicals anymore. It's a war against the people of Iraq. Another thing is, will these men who under went traumatic experiences be able to adjust back into America's Society when they return home.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-hearing8aug08,0,2283802.story?page=2&coll=la-home-world

Bottomline, the war needs to end! There's no purpose of the war, so why continue to fight? The US needs to help its own people before helping other countries.

Didn't read the article but it prob. has something to do with the mil. lowering standards to help meet their goals. It happens in all wars and if found guilty they should be punished to the full extent for dishonoring the country and the others soldiers who daily go about their duty in an honourable way.

I heard about this on the news and i just shook my head.. I think it is taking a toll on the soldiers.. To the point where if you send them back home, 10 months or a year later, then its gonna be really hard to adjust again. Is it true that they started the draft again??

Happens in War folks (unfortunately). Vietnam ring a bell?

I heard about this on the news and i just shook my head.. I think it is taking a toll on the soldiers.. To the point where if you send them back home, 10 months or a year later, then its gonna be really hard to adjust again. Is it true that they started the draft again??

No draft, who's spreading that rumor around??

Just a liitle off topic on this one but...

Remember last week how we were [U]all[U] complaining about how freakin hot is is? A former military man asked me to consider the following statement: Full fatigues, full armor {if they have it}, 100 pound pack, plus weapon and ammo in 100 plus degree heat every day. Not to mention the forced extention of service. This is no excuse for any kind of behavior, but it would be enough to make me more than a little resentful. Like I said, THIS IS NO EXCUSE FOR BEHAVING LIKE AN IDIOT!!!!! It did make me fly off the handle just a bit quicker.

No draft, who's spreading that rumor around??


my mom...:hidin:

No excuse for this to happen. Having said that you just have to remember that these things have happened in every war. You want to make sure it doesn't happen again? If they are found guilty, hang them. Set the tone. But there will always be that small percentage in any group that just doesn't get the picture.

Interesting Article from the LA Times. It appears that 3 soldiers are charge with the rape of a 14 year old Iraqi girl and the murder of her and family. Statement from one of the soldiers "I want to kill and hurt a lot of Iraqis."

It appears that the war is taking toll on our soldiers and it's not a war against Muslim radicals anymore. It's a war against the people of Iraq. Another thing is, will these men who under went traumatic experiences be able to adjust back into America's Society when they return home.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-hearing8aug08,0,2283802.story?page=2&coll=la-home-world

Bottomline, the war needs to end! There's no purpose of the war, so why continue to fight? The US needs to help its own people before helping other countries.


First of all,not you again.Children like you need to be quiet until you've stepped into the shoes of an actual soldier.

Ever heard of propaganda Stormchild?Its your type who were calling Viet Vets "Baby Killers".Its real easy criticizing the guys fighting YOUR battle while you languish at home.

I can truly say that I HATE people like you.Try stating the obvious,of course the Iraq War needs to end.The guys fighting don't need some little sh!t like you reminding them of THAT!Your attitude isn't much better than that of Bin Laden's but I'll take back the Hate comment.I'm an American......I hate none.

No excuses but reasons:

The horrors of war have lead to this behaviour throughout the ages.

They are in a different world. Veritable children many young soldiers are. Going from their small worlds here in the States through blink of the eye training then plugged into the viscious and unforgiving maelstrom of war.


Your best friends who you live with, rely on , fight with, struggle to stay sane and alive with, are often killed before your eyes in the most horrific fashion.

Basswipe - why is it propaganda? Are you saying it didn't happen? No need to show classlessness with the name calling. It sures seems like you have a lot of hate.

I don't think 90% of us here are qualified to judge these guys - myself included.

These guys bust their asses in ways utterly unimaginable to us, living in horific conditions, under unbelievable stress, with the very real thought and possibility that they are not going to go home on their feet but on a medevac to Ramstein or Walter Reed if they are lucky, and even money on a plane to Dover - while we discuss this like experts living back in the Big PX.

This happens in wars, and it is not condonable under any circumstance. It does need to be handled by experts and we must have faith in the system that the proper result comes out.

WE simply cannot judge these guys.

I'd add the observations of Representative Jack Murtha who has probably spent more time than anyone in Congress with injured Iraq veterans.

It's not enough to say that "stuff happens" in war. The civilian policy mistakes and judgments have put an incredible amount of pressure on our troops...the lessons learned from Vietnam (most notably the Weinberger Doctrine) have been intentionally cast aside...which as voters we need to recognize.

This is the basis for his anger, it's not resentment...but compassion.

-spence

First of all,not you again.Children like you need to be quiet until you've stepped into the shoes of an actual soldier.

Ever heard of propaganda Stormchild?Its your type who were calling Viet Vets "Baby Killers".Its real easy criticizing the guys fighting YOUR battle while you languish at home.

I can truly say that I HATE people like you.Try stating the obvious,of course the Iraq War needs to end.The guys fighting don't need some little sh!t like you reminding them of THAT!Your attitude isn't much better than that of Bin Laden's but I'll take back the Hate comment.I'm an American......I hate none.


Good post , we all know where Stormfish stands. Once he started spewing his 9/11 conspiracy crap how can anyone take him seriosly?

First of all,not you again.Children like you need to be quiet until you've stepped into the shoes of an actual soldier.
A less dangerous approach would be to pick up a copy of Nathianel Fick's most excellent book "The Making of a Marine Officer"...

Excellent objective perspective from the front line.

-spence

officers don't the fight wars the enlisted do.

"The Making of a Marine Officer"

-spence

Thank you spence, your attention to detail is unparalleled.

You deserve the very best...it's a great book by the way.

-spence

Basswipe - why is it propaganda? Are you saying it didn't happen? No need to show classlessness with the name calling. It sures seems like you have a lot of hate.

I would never quote anything from the LA Times, NY Times or Boston Globe as fact.

Stormfish, accused and guilty all in the same post.

If anyone is extended the curtesy of inocent until proven guilty it should be these troops.

If the charges are proven unfounded does anyone realize it would not be the first time since this war has begun that would be so.

If the charges are true then most veterans will tell you that these five individuals involved either were or had the potential to be the type of persons they are accused of being before they entered the armed forces. Some d*%kh#*ds slip through the cracks at entry.

Then again you can't send people to another land to with orders while there to kill people, and expect them always to make the right choices.

I would never quote anything from the LA Times, NY Times or Boston Globe as fact.

Well the article was summerized in the Providence Journal. So I guess Projo isn't classified as Fact either.

You're real classy with your name calling B-asswipe~

And Skippy you've contridicted yourself in this thread. First agreeing with me then being my antagonist...

[QUOTE=stormfish]Well the article was summerized in the Providence Journal. So I guess Projo isn't classified as Fact either.

You're real classy with your name calling B-asswipe~

And Skippy you've contridicted yourself in this thread. First agreeing with me then being my antagonist...[/QUOTE

You stand alone

I would never quote anything from the LA Times, NY Times or Boston Globe as fact.



just curious....what would you quote?

Newpapers make mistakes, just because it's printed doesn't make it a "fact".

Now the more respectable media outlets have very strict editorial business processes in place to ensure information is represented correctly and sources are credible.

It's because of this for instance, that you can pretty much be sure if Seymour Hersh writes something damning it's probably true. It's not just his word, but the reputation of the New Yorker standing behind what's written.

It's also why the NY Times took so much flack for the Jason Blair scandal a few years back...although all things considered they are still the standard.

It's also why so many have so little respect for FOX News. Nearly their entire format is opinion, and opinions don't have the same obligation to correct the record.

-spence

just curious....what would you quote?

I prefer to conclude my own facts based on an even sided analysis of available sources.

I prefer to conclude my own facts based on an even sided analysis of available sources.

me to....but quotes are fun to stir the pot. I often will post quotes knowing they are very one sided just to start a discussion.



and..... Hey Spence!

Happens in War folks (unfortunately). Vietnam ring a bell?
It happened in WW I and II, Korea and probably every war that lasted more than a few months. Raping, killing and plundering were considered the "spoils of war" until modern times. We are supposed to be above that now.

We are supposed to be above that now.
I don't think anyone expects it not to happen on a limited basis.

But the big difference here is how early in the conflict the Administration repeatedly denied abuses while it was clear they were going on.

All their "chits" have been squandered on covering up bad policy, and none are left to protect the troops who unfortunately need them at times.

-spence

It happened in WW I and II, Korea and probably every war that lasted more than a few months. Raping, killing and plundering were considered the "spoils of war" until modern times. We are supposed to be above that now.

In war the word civilized loses all meaning. Except maybe more advanced weapons.

Happens in War folks (unfortunately). Vietnam ring a bell?

my thoughts exactly... the difference (hopefully) this time is we won't be turning our backs on our soldiers when they return. I remember 2 years ago saying, no way will this turn into a vietnam...:lossinit:

So that one that fessed up dropped his defense of having looked for help but gotten none for battle stress.

Interesting...

my thoughts exactly... the difference (hopefully) this time is we won't be turning our backs on our soldiers when they return. I remember 2 years ago saying, no way will this turn into a vietnam...:lossinit:
There's another excellent book (yes, I read quite a bit) called "The New American Militarisim" by Andrew Bacevich which discusses (among other things) how the phyche of the troops transformed after Vietnam from a "citizen soldier" to the volunteer we have today...

There are certainly some on the far left who view the troops as thugs, but if you're going to be a real pacifist that would make some sense...although this is a tiny fracton of the population.

I can't fathom the same anti-troop attitudes we saw (ok, I was born in 1970 :)) towards our troops today...but I do think the GOP has skillfully manipulated genuine anger towards our policy machine and redirected it directly at the troops.

A glaring example of this is (again) Rep. John Murtha's compassion for injured Vets being twisted into weakness and emboldening terrorisim.

I'm agast at the Administration comments about the Ned Lamont primary win over Sen. Joe Leiberman...here we have the democratic process alive and kicking with a huge voter turnout and it's painted by top Bush Administration officials as a win for terrorisim and emboldening the enemy.

What the %$%$%$%$ is going on?

I really wonder when people are going to wake up and realize that our leadership is ruling under a banner of fear, as if they were being led by the devil himself.

Please let me know a single time in our great countries history that we overcame tremendous challenge through FEAR.

This isn't my America.

-spence

Fear only exists in those that are afraid. I choose not to be afraid and I'm not.

Fear only exists in those that are afraid. I choose not to be afraid and I'm not.
Ok, but there are 300 million others that may not share your exceptional fortitude.

-spence

Fear of loss and danger is a great motivational tactic in convincing both the strong and weak. Once this administration expires the truth or history will be written because those that speakup now could place their jobs/livelihood in jeopardy because of fear of loss.

Ok, but there are 300 million others that may not share your exceptional fortitude.

-spence
Thats their choice, so be it. There is absolutley no doubt in my mind that the same ones accusing the administration of fear mongering will be the same ones accusing the administration of not properly emphasizing the seriousness of the threat if and probably when a strike occurs.

:splat:

Thats their choice, so be it. There is absolutley no doubt in my mind that the same ones accusing the administration of fear mongering will be the same ones accusing the administration of not properly emphasizing the seriousness of the threat if and probably when a strike occurs.

:splat:

BINGO!!! 21 dirtbags arrested in a London airliner attack today. But i guess we shouldn't worry about terroism, because according to some, its all a scare tactic to make us scared.

And from whats i'm hearing, the plan they thrawted was pretty close to going down.

This is WHY we are at war with radical Islam. If you people dont realize it now you never will. We cannot let our guard down or they will destroy us one by one. Anyone doubt they are not trying to?? We MUST stay on the offensive. Its not even an option, we have to.

Anyone wanna takes bets that these 21 arrested are all muslim? :bl2:

And after yet another terror plot stopped, should we still continue to search and frisk 90 year old ladies at the airports? or can we finally search the middle eastern dudes in thier mid 20's?? :bl2:

Thats their choice, so be it. There is absolutley no doubt in my mind that the same ones accusing the administration of fear mongering will be the same ones accusing the administration of not properly emphasizing the seriousness of the threat if and probably when a strike occurs.
To date the bi-partisan 9/11 comission has given the Bush Administration failing grades on their actions to enact reasonable bi-partisan recomendations to secure the country against terrorisim.

If or when (god forbid) there is another attack on US soil, the criticism will be coming from all sides...mark my words.

-spence

This is WHY we are at war with radical Islam. If you people dont realize it now you never will. We cannot let our guard down or they will destroy us one by one. Anyone doubt they are not trying to?? We MUST stay on the offensive. Its not even an option, we have to.
Skipper-poopy-lou,

I'm not sure you really appreciate the geo-political events during the Cold War that influenced the rise of "political" Islam which is where the problem lies.

It's clear you're mighty afraid, but can you think of any times when your ability to make prudent judgements has been enhanced because of your fear?

Also Skippy, here's a chance to put your money where your mouth is.

Would you support mandatory extra security screening of young Muslim men at US airports, even if they were US citizens?

-spence

BINGO!!! 21 dirtbags arrested in a London airliner attack today. But i guess we shouldn't worry about terroism, because according to some, its all a scare tactic to make us scared. (Skip N)


Terrorism is a fear tactic...............Boo!

Even though we have geographic distance from all this crap I cannot believe that anyone does not have some fear.... our worlds operate in many ways through fear.

Would you support mandatory extra security screening of young Muslim men at US airports, even if they were US citizens?

-spence

Yes, i'm hearing the terroists they arrested in the UK might have been UK citizens. So yes, who in thier right mind would'nt after this? You can honestly sit here and tell me that no muslim US citizen has ties to radical Islam? Of course some do. To think some dont is crazy.

Unlike you, i have the balls to say what most Americans are thinking. We know who fits the profile of the terroists, so lets give them an extra look at the airport. I dont get caught up in the PC bull%$%$%$%$. We know who they are, lets give them an extra look, Its damn worth it to prevent would could have happened in the UK.

Yes, i'm hearing the terroists they arrested in the UK might have been UK citizens. So yes, who in thier right mind would'nt after this? You can honestly sit here and tell me that no muslim US citizen has ties to radical Islam? Of course some do. To think some dont is crazy.
Fair enough.

BTW, have you ever read the Declaration of Independence?

-spence

BINGO!!! 21 dirtbags arrested in a London airliner attack today. But i guess we shouldn't worry about terroism, because according to some, its all a scare tactic to make us scared. (Skip N)


Terrorism is a fear tactic...............Boo!

Even though we have geographic distance from all this crap I cannot believe that anyone does not have some fear.... our worlds operate in many ways through fear.

On 9/11 we saw the danger and pure evil of radical Islam, how could anyone say they don't have some fear? We know they want to hit us again, just look at the UK today, they are at it again.

On 9/11 we saw the danger and pure evil of radical Islam, how could anyone say they don't have some fear? We know they want to hit us again, just look at the UK today, they are at it again.
Well, that fear was more than manipulated to get us into Iraq.

A little fear can be good as it brings caution. A lot of fear is bad as it clouds judgement. When you're afraid you don't think, you react.

For instance, a lot of fear of young Muslim men would lead someone like you to ignore the foundations of Liberty and strip someone of their civil rights because you are afraid.

That just doesn't seem right now does it?

As an aside, I'm not black or white on all profiling...but it's a slippery slope.

-spence

Well, that fear was more than manipulated to get us into Iraq.

A little fear can be good as it brings caution. A lot of fear is bad as it clouds judgement. When you're afraid you don't think, you react.

-spence

I'll buy most of this...

Well, that fear was more than manipulated to get us into Iraq.

A little fear can be good as it brings caution. A lot of fear is bad as it clouds judgement. When you're afraid you don't think, you react.

For instance, a lot of fear of young Muslim men would lead someone like you to ignore the foundations of Liberty and strip someone of their civil rights because you are afraid.

That just doesn't seem right now does it?

-spence


Frustration and anger make a nice soup to :as:

Frustration and anger make a nice soup to :as:
You forgot REVENGE!

-spence

As an aside, I'm not black or white on all profiling...but it's a slippery slope.

-spence

I'm not saying it's not a slippery slope. But common sense needs to be used at times. I'm not saying round up all Middle eastern dudes and put 'em in a camp somewhere. Thats extreme. But, we know who fits the profile of a likely terroist, so a little extra checking at the airports and other sensative places makes sense to me. We can't let Mohamad Abdula walk right through the check point, and pull my 90 year old grandmother aside for a long frisking. Common sense is all im asking!

I hope the ACLU aren't reading my posts :hee:

As far as screening of young Muslim Men goes dont worry it happens regularly as it should. My youngest brother,twenty eight years old (of Italian Descent) who travels extensively and could easily pass as being of Arabic descent is resigned to the fact that he will be pulled out of line and subjected to extra screening every time without fail. He chooses to apply his basic common sense and understanding of the clear need rather than envoking the Declaration of Independence.

We can't let Mohamad Abdula walk right through the check point, and pull my 90 year old grandmother aside for a long frisking. Common sense is all im asking!
I don't think that's common sense, you're basically saying that all Muslim men are guilty until proven innocent.

Now a combination of behavioral risk factors might mean something, but that's a different story.

-spence

As far as screening of young Muslim Men goes dont worry it happens regularly as it should. My youngest brother,twenty eight years old (of Italian Descent) who travels extensively and could easily pass as being of Arabic descent is resigned to the fact that he will be pulled out of line and subjected to extra screening every time without fail. He chooses to apply his basic common sense and understanding of the clear need rather than envoking the Declaration of Independence.

I think he understands he has nothing to hide and just sucks it up and doesnt go running for the ACLU to make a big stink. Deep down he might get pissed, but i'm sure he realizes its for the over all saftey of the airliners.

Heck i'm a 26 year old white guy and i've gotten pulled aside a few times. They even sent me through that machine that blows all that damn air on you! But i dont care, it takes all of a 2 minutes and its done. But maybe next time all call the ACLU and make a big fuss :hee:

I don't think that's common sense, you're basically saying that all Muslim men are guilty until proven innocent.

Now a combination of behavioral risk factors might mean something, but that's a different story.

-spence

So you're willing to take the chance this day an age, and let them go through without any extra checking? We're talking about hardcore terroists here, these guys are trained to be very calm as they go about thier mission. So we might not be able to tell just by that.

So you're willing to take the chance this day an age, and let them go through without any extra checking? We're talking about hardcore terroists here, these guys are trained to be very calm as they go about thier mission. So we might not be able to tell just by that.
I'm saying that I'm not willing to sacrifice our freedom because I'm afraid...too many good Americans have died to protect it.

Besides, how do you know if someone is a Muslim?

-spence

I'm saying that I'm not willing to sacrifice our freedom because I'm afraid...too many good Americans have died to protect it.

Besides, how do you know if someone is a Muslim?

-spence
The bombs sticking out of their clothing usually gives it away :)

Basswipe - why is it propaganda? Are you saying it didn't happen? No need to show classlessness with the name calling. It sures seems like you have a lot of hate.

It could be propaganda...no?It could've happened but it also might not've.Name calling...as a vet I've earned THAT right considering that this individual has spewed forth nothing but anti-American(troops)crap since he became a member.

Hate.You say it SEEMS like I'm full of it.Some things are not what they seem Paul.

My only concern is the welfare of our boys in uniform and their families.Our boys are so easily forgotten in the heat of political bull%$%$%$%$...well except now,it being around election time and all.

It could be propaganda...no?
I'd classify stuff like this as more reactionary than propaganda.

-spence