Bush: Leaving Iraq now would be a 'disaster'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh.... what has it been from day one? :wavey:

Yea, I listened to the press conference this morning.

It amazes me how little substance there is behind his words.

Iraq is quite possibly the biggest foreign policy blunder in the history of our country...and we're all paying for it.

-spence

How many times can you be asked the same questions?

Patriotism = Accepted ignorance for this Admin


It is so very real and sad

How many times can you be asked the same questions?
I'm sure they'd stop if he would only give an answer :hf1:

Generic response #1) This is hard work and you don't have clue

Generic response #2) Proclaim that any alternate ideas provide shelter and comfort for the enemies of the free and civilized world

That's about it.

-spence

I'm sure they'd stop if he would only give an answer :hf1:

Generic response #1) This is hard work and you don't have clue

Generic response #2) Proclaim that any alternate ideas provide shelter and comfort for the enemies of the free and civilized world

That's about it.

-spence

What alternative idea would you be refering to? Handing Iraq over to Iran? Seriously, the entire country has been waiting and waiting to hear what this alternative idea is.

What alternative idea would you be refering to? Handing Iraq over to Iran? Seriously, the entire country has been waiting and waiting to hear what this alternative idea is.
The Bush policy already has effectively handed Iraq over to Iran.

-spence

What alternative idea would you be refering to? Handing Iraq over to Iran? Seriously, the entire country has been waiting and waiting to hear what this alternative idea is.


The "Anti-War Party" :p does not have solutions nor any feasible alternative... just an incurable urge to point out what is not working.

The "Anti-War Party" :p does not have solutions nor any feasible alternative... just an incurable urge to point out what is not working.

We should`nt have gone there in the first place. There is your your Bush loving alternative.

The "Anti-War Party" :p does not have solutions nor any feasible alternative... just an incurable urge to point out what is not working.
Your right Bronko, but you cannot reason with the "CUT AN RUN PARTY". There the ones that got us into the last one. That you don't here them talking about, the one that lasted for 10 years.

There the ones that got us into the last one. That you don't here them talking about, the one that lasted for 10 years.
Ok, could you please refrain from such excessive irony? :heybaby:

In invading Iraq in the manner they did, Bush violated just about every single lesson learned from Vietnam.

The Weinberger and Powell Doctrines were to ensure we didn't repeat the same mistakes...but when idiology dictates policy...well, we have Iraq today.

-spence

"EXCESSIVE IRONY"
You can speak about that when you've been up to your a$$ in swanps and mud and jungle with people shooting at you trying to KILL you. Then you have the right to talk. Other wise, keep your mouth shut. Because what you read it the papers isn't what was happening over there.

"EXCESSIVE IRONY"
You can speak about that when you've been up to your a$$ in swanps and mud and jungle with people shooting at you trying to KILL you. Then you have the right to talk. Other wise, keep your mouth shut. Because what you read it the papers isn't what was happening over there.
I think you're missing the point...yet again.

-spence

Such a waste

I'M NOT MISSING THE POINT. ITS A$$HOLES LIKE YOU THAT STAY HOME AND CRITIZE. BUT DON'T HAVE THE BALLS TO GET INTO THE FIGHT!!

The Bush policy already has effectively handed Iraq over to Iran.

-spence

Yep. That seems to be about the jist of every "alternate plan" I've heard yet.

I'M NOT MISSING THE POINT. ITS A$$HOLES LIKE YOU THAT STAY HOME AND CRITIZE. BUT DON'T HAVE THE BALLS TO GET INTO THE FIGHT!!
Perhaps it's time for a Miss Manners thread :fishslap:

It's really sad to see you're behaving exactly like the GOP wants you to...so full of rage at your fellow Americans you're completely distracted from the policy blunders that are hurting this country.

Additionally, you're making wild character judgements based on little knowledge of the truth...this is lacking in many ways.

-spence

Perhaps it's time for a Miss Manners thread :fishslap:

It's really sad to see you're behaving exactly like the GOP wants you to...so full of rage at your fellow Americans you're completely distracted from the policy blunders that are hurting this country.

Additionally, you're making wild character judgements based on little knowledge of the truth...this is lacking in many ways.

-spence

The rage I witness on a daily basis is not coming from the GOP. I've come to the firm conclusion that todays Left Wing of America is the most hateful, racist faction in America and perhaps in American history. Whats that "alternate plan" again? Oh yeah its the "We HATE Bush Plan".

The rage I witness on a daily basis is not coming from the GOP. I've come to the firm conclusion that todays Left Wing of America is the most hateful, racist faction in America and perhaps in American history. Whats that "alternate plan" again? Oh yeah its the "We HATE Bush Plan".
And here's where you're completely off base.

The "Left Wing" represents a fraction of America. The vast majority of anger at the President is coming from the middle and is due to POLICY rather than personality.

The entire "Hate Bush" and "alternate plan" mantras are an intellectual cop out for those to lazy or unwilling to process the facts.

You want a plan? Simple, make policy based on the world AS IT IS rather than as you would like it to be...

That's a new direction we should all be able to agree on.

-spence

The rage I witness on a daily basis is not coming from the GOP. I've come to the firm conclusion that todays Left Wing of America is the most hateful, racist faction in America and perhaps in American history. Whats that "alternate plan" again? Oh yeah its the "We HATE Bush Plan".


Its not Bush.... he is too pathetic, weak, and moronic to hate. Its the power structure that is running the show that is deserving of stronger emotions.

Spence is right in that I cannot mention that this war in Iraq is wrong and a waste without the monkey demons flying all over screeching LEFT and RIGHT.
Division is what keeps us together whether we know it or not. :gu:

And here's where you're completely off base.

The "Left Wing" represents a fraction of America. The vast majority of anger at the President is coming from the middle and is due to POLICY rather than personality.

The entire "Hate Bush" and "alternate plan" mantras are an intellectual cop out for those to lazy or unwilling to process the facts.

You want a plan? Simple, make policy based on the world AS IT IS rather than as you would like it to be...

That's a new direction we should all be able to agree on.

-spence

Oh, now I see. make policy on the world AS IT IS! So now your saying we should be facing road side bombs in this country instead of Iraq..
Thats real nice, now I KNOW YOU ARE A REALL "A$$HOLE"!!!!!!

And here's where you're completely off base.

The "Left Wing" represents a fraction of America. The vast majority of anger at the President is coming from the middle and is due to POLICY rather than personality.

The entire "Hate Bush" and "alternate plan" mantras are an intellectual cop out for those to lazy or unwilling to process the facts.

You want a plan? Simple, make policy based on the world AS IT IS rather than as you would like it to be...

That's a new direction we should all be able to agree on.

-spence

Yeah thats a plan. Wouldn't have done much to eliminate Nazism, Slavery or thousands of other issues that could have been accepted and planned around, but its a plan. (I guess). Intellectual Cop Out? Sounds like Triple inverted doublespeak to discredit the opinion of anyone who disagrees with you. And no I'm not lazy, or unwilling to process facts nor are the vast majority of those who don't agree with your point of view or accept your version of fact. I still very much support a plan that kills sworn enemies of America before they kill us. And yes we are fighting Terrorists in Iraq like it or not. Maybe they weren't there before but they are now and thats the world today AS IT IS.

Oh, now I see. make policy on the world AS IT IS! So now your saying we should be facing road side bombs in this country instead of Iraq..
Thats real nice, now I KNOW YOU ARE A REALL "A$$HOLE"!!!!!!


Hows those metal plates in your head holding up :usd:

Its not Bush.... he is too pathetic, weak, and moronic to hate. Its the power structure that is running the show that is deserving of stronger emotions.

Spence is right in that I cannot mention that this war in Iraq is wrong and a waste without the monkey demons flying all over screeching LEFT and RIGHT.
Division is what keeps us together whether we know it or not. :gu:

You don't have to be a Bush supporter or a Republican to realize that Terrorism is real and there are real Terrorists in Iraq and they need to die. I pretty much dont care where we choose to fight them as long as we are fighting them and its not here. If not Iraq, pick any other Muslim country and I will support that effort as well. But we are already in Iraq.

It is a very rough world. As for myself, I think violent terrorists should be evaporated many time over.

I just don`t know how we can do it without these full scale wars but I wish there was a less destructive alternate route.

You don't have to be a Bush supporter or a Republican to realize that Terrorism is real and there are real Terrorists in Iraq and they need to die. I pretty much dont care where we choose to fight them as long as we are fighting them and its not here. If not Iraq, pick any other Muslim country and I will support that effort as well. But we are already in Iraq.
I think we all understand terrorism is a serious issue.

But the notion that we're fighting them over there in any meaningful form is simply not reality.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The Administration desires it to be so they broadcast the message and you pick up on it.

Then a Dem (Murtha) comes along and offers an alternate plan, which is trounced by the GOP.

Now agree or disagree with Murtha's plan, but the fact is he observed "reality"...that we're not killing many terrorists, but mostly Iraqi nationalists and sectarian thugs.

Iraq isn't a turkey shoot for terrorists, it's a breeding ground, as in we're making more than we started with!

-spence

Yeah thats a plan. Wouldn't have done much to eliminate Nazism, Slavery or thousands of other issues that could have been accepted and planned around, but its a plan.
Hogwash, I'm not advocating inaction...I'm advocating objective thought!

-spence

Hogwash, I'm not advocating inaction...I'm advocating objective thought!

-spence

Great stuff, as long as you are prepared to perform the objective thought process in conjunction with and at the same time as killing those who are planning to kill us. But if thats message the Democratic Party is trying to put forth they are failing miserably.

Great stuff, as long as you are prepared to perform the objective thought process in conjunction with and at the same time as killing those who are planning to kill us. But if thats message the Democratic Party is trying to put forth they are failing miserably.
The Dems are in a very difficult situation. They are a "big tent" party with a variety of opinions fighting for attention. As they don't have any real leadership positions, there isn't a single message to focus on.

This is a good and bad thing. With the variety of voices you get more options, but it's difficult for the general public to process.

The GOP is completely united around a single theme, kill them before they kill us.

Unfortunately that's where the thought process stops, which is why we have so many problems today in Iraq and in the "war on terror" in general.

The answer isn't in liberalisim alone, it's in Democracy...which requires the free exchange of ideas and ultimately cooperation and compramise to function.

Today, with the GOP attempting to monopolize our system through fear we have none of this...in fact it's demonized as "unpatriotic".

History will show this to be perhaps the most "anti-democratic" administration in modern US history...and we're all going to pay the price.

-spence

WHAT HE SAID

Now that we have Afghanistan and Iraq all stirred up is it time to move on Iran and Syria yet?


Black Gold runs red all over.

Today, with the GOP attempting to monopolize our system through fear we have none of this...in fact it's demonized as "unpatriotic".

-spence

How easily some forget the horrific events that only happened a few years ago in NY, and what almost happened a couple of weeks ago on planes en route from London. How can you not FEAR what these nut jobs will try? Where has compromise, or diplomacy worked on these Muslim extremists in the past?

As somebody mentioned earlier. Who cares where the fight is done? As long as we are able to bring the fight TO them, rather than having them bring the fight here we have to do it.

It is a very rough world. As for myself, I think violent terrorists should be evaporated many time over.

I just don`t know how we can do it without these full scale wars but I wish there was a less destructive alternate route.



You are getting there Skitter....

You only have to accept one more fact and you will be free. There is NO way to "evaporate many times over" the pure evil that are terrorists via a "less destructive alternative route."

These people use whatever means they have at there disposal to inflict the most damage that they can. Car bombs...airplanes...gassing.... Whatever they can get their backwards 3rd world hands on, they will use to kill you, me and yes....even Spence.

They speak bully and bully is all they understand. I am thrilled our troops have taken the fight overseas to Iraq, Afghanistan, Indonesia etc. Every morning I wake up and tune in to the news and thank God these kids are over there doing there jobs protecting us and fighting these pieces of sh*t on their own soil.

I was born in 53 so I like bush just not GW :laughs:

Who cares where the fight is done? As long as we are able to bring the fight TO them, rather than having them bring the fight here we have to do it.
You don't get it...

We're not taking the fight to them, we're creating more of them than we're killing.

The end goal isn't a body count, it's a safe world. It's precisely how we're taking the fight to them that's the problem.

Our strategy has been ignorant and incompetent from day one which is wasting and diminishing the effectiveness of our troops. Given that blood and money are on the line, this is a big deal indeed.

Did we learn nothing from Vietnam?

-spence

They speak bully and bully is all they understand. I am thrilled our troops have taken the fight overseas to Iraq, Afghanistan, Indonesia etc. Every morning I wake up and tune in to the news and thank God these kids are over there doing there jobs protecting us and fighting these pieces of sh*t on their own soil.
Thrilled? Our troops are mostly held up in bases in Iraq so they don't get into the sectarian crossfire...

We're not killing Jihadists, we're killing ordinary Iraqis fighting a civil war...

-spence

[QUOTE=spence]Thrilled? Our troops are mostly held up in bases in Iraq so they don't get into the sectarian crossfire...

We're not killing Jihadists, we're killing ordinary Iraqis fighting a civil war...

-spence[/QUOTE

I understand Iraq is the Party "binky" but there is a lot more going on in a lot of other areas than Iraq. We have more special ops soldiers spread out around the world today than in our country's history. They are doing things in the middle of the night that would make the wack job liberal bloggers and the rest of the pajamahadeen crap their Dockers.

You know Spence, your a tipical Democrat. Theres never enough money to do things right the first time,BUT, always enough money to do it again, and again, and again. Thats why the Democrats are on the outside looking in. The American people has had enough of the Democtatic Bull%$%$%$%$!!!!!

The whole "Fear" complaint is bunk as I've said before. Those who have an inside knowledge of the true Terrorist threat are obligated to communicate that threat to the people. We hear clear explanations of the extent and seriousness ofthe Terrorism threat by experts from many nations and all political affiliations. When someone is "frightened" by the facts well, thats the way it is. Fact is, the facts are scary. Despite the pleas of those begging the Government to stop "scaring" them the obligation to present the true threat remains. This country spent a decade being very careful not to "scare" those who scare easily and look where it got us. Anyone who buys into this whole Democratic accusation of "scare tactics" I suggest they seek some information outside of the administration and absorb the frightening truth when it comes to Terrorism.

There is much written about the Muslim koran and its teachings. There is nonsense in there about killing infidels, and they do teach that crap to everyone including their kids. Nothing like that in the good old conservative Bible. You know "love thy neighbor".

Funny how you can't find too many, if any, muslims publicly denouncing these "terrorist" acts.

Because they believe Ala will come an get them if they do!!

Come on now, we all know Islam is the religion of peace!:laugha: :err:

The Bible is full of violence.... lets just kill everyone and every thing :uhuh:

The Bible is full of violence.... lets just kill everyone and every thing :uhuh:

Your right the Christian Bible is full of violence, eye for an eye and Stoning to death type stuff. The difference between the Koran and the Bible appears to be the intellect of those who interperet each.

Your right the Christian Bible is full of violence, eye for an eye and Stoning to death type stuff. The difference between the Koran and the Bible appears to be the intellect of those who interperet each.

Yup, I don't know about you, but i don't see millions of radical christians going around cutting off heads, strapping on bombs, and planning to blow up airliners in the name of thier god. Only those members of the so called religion of peace do that.

Ya see the difference Skitter? or are you more afraid of radical Christians?! :rotf3:

Yup, I don't know about you, but i don't see millions of radical christians going around cutting off heads, strapping on bombs, and planning to blow up airliners in the name of thier god. Only those members of the so called religion of peace do that.

Ya see the difference Skitter? or are you more afraid of radical Christians?! :rotf3:


This thread has a number of potential radicals..... :hee:

I do love hearing all this :kewl:

Yup, I don't know about you, but i don't see millions of radical christians going around cutting off heads, :rotf3:

Not anymore, boy we haven't had a good old fashioned Christian Crusade in a long time.

All religions are based in peace and all are up to interpretation by both good and bad people. People take from them whatever meets there own Agenda. Pretty much every army that has fought in a war has said that God was on there side.

Plenty of whacked out christians out there too.

George W. Bush and his veep running mate, #^&#^&#^&#^& Cheney were talking,
when George W. said, "I hate all the dumb George W. jokes people tell about me."

Wise Old Cheney, feeling sorry for his old boss kid, said sage-like, "Oh, they are only jokes. There are a lot of stupid people out there. Here, Ill prove it to you."

Now Cheney, to patronize George W, took him outside and hailed a taxi driver.
"Please take me to 29 Nickel Street to see if Im home," said Cheney.

The cab driver without saying a word drove them to Nickel Street, and when they finally got out, Cheney looked at George W. and said, "See That guy was really stupid"

"No kidding," replied George W. "There was a pay phone just around the corner...
You could have called instead?"

:hihi:



dumber than a stick

The whole "Fear" complaint is bunk as I've said before. Those who have an inside knowledge of the true Terrorist threat are obligated to communicate that threat to the people.
Yea, and exploit it for political gain...nice.

I'm afraid if you can't see this then there's not much use discussing it.

-spence

We have more special ops soldiers spread out around the world today than in our country's history. They are doing things in the middle of the night that would make the wack job liberal bloggers and the rest of the pajamahadeen crap their Dockers.
You sure have a lot of faith...special ops have their place certainly, but they can't do squat to keep the moderates from slipping into extremisim.

Perhaps instead you could absorb the facts instead of just believing what you're told...

Our borders are still open, FBI computers still haven't been upgraded...heck the 9/11 panel gave the Admin an F for domestic protections.

Under Bush North Korea went from having zero nukes to 6-12.

Iran went from helping us in Afghanistan to electing an Islamic hardliner using fear to hurt our economy.

Iraq is in a bloody civil war which the Administration stubbornly denies. To this day they insist the Iraqi people want a unified country which simply isn't true.

The Palestinian people freely elected a terrorist government.

Egypt, Russia etc... have all moved further away from Democracy.

Bush is now held in lower regard in most Islamic nations than Osama Bin laden.

And on and on and on...

But it's all ok because at least the panty waisted liberals aren't in power :rollem:

I think the problem is pretty clear here. Your position is based on emotion instead of observable facts. Perhaps you've just bent under all the fearmongering.

-spence

You know Spence, your a tipical Democrat. Theres never enough money to do things right the first time,BUT, always enough money to do it again, and again, and again. Thats why the Democrats are on the outside looking in. The American people has had enough of the Democtatic Bull%$%$%$%$!!!!!
Actually I'm not a Dem you old coot. Lifelong Republican who's abandoned the party of Goldwater for independent status until GOP has been seriously reformed.

If you think the social and neo conservatives represent the will of middle America than I've got some oceanfront land in Little Compton to sell you.

Because you're not paying any attention.

-spence

You sure have a lot of faith...special ops have their place certainly, but they can't do squat to keep the moderates from slipping into extremisim.

Perhaps instead you could absorb the facts instead of just believing what you're told...

Our borders are still open, FBI computers still haven't been upgraded...heck the 9/11 panel gave the Admin an F for domestic protections.

Under Bush North Korea went from having zero nukes to 6-12.

Iran went from helping us in Afghanistan to electing an Islamic hardliner using fear to hurt our economy.

Iraq is in a bloody civil war which the Administration stubbornly denies. To this day they insist the Iraqi people want a unified country which simply isn't true.

The Palestinian people freely elected a terrorist government.

Egypt, Russia etc... have all moved further away from Democracy.

Bush is now held in lower regard in most Islamic nations than Osama Bin laden.

And on and on and on...

But it's all ok because at least the panty waisted liberals aren't in power :rollem:

I think the problem is pretty clear here. Your position is based on emotion instead of observable facts. Perhaps you've just bent under all the fearmongering.

-spence


Are you serious? Stop it with the holier than thou approach will you. This "enlightened one act is tired. Where do you get this stuff? Escahton? Move On?

You give your opinion, I give mine, You post your party articles I post mine.

:wavey:


I love it when Bush says the Iraqui people just want freedom and democracy after we Shocked and Awed their asses and as we now try to desperately control an escalating civil war.

Would we want to become a strict orthodox Muslim country after being pounded by a Isalmic war machine?


They never asked for us and they don`t want us there.

Actually I'm not a Dem you old coot. Lifelong Republican who's abandoned the party of Goldwater for independent status until GOP has been seriously reformed.

If you think the social and neo conservatives represent the will of middle America than I've got some oceanfront land in Little Compton to sell you.

Because you're not paying any attention.

-spence

Your just the kind of Republican the party dosen't need!! There are enough turn-coats in politics now!!!!

Are you serious? Stop it with the holier than thou approach will you. This "enlightened one act is tired. Where do you get this stuff? Escahton? Move On?
Or retired military, Bush's lips, terrorisim experts, first hand observers...

I don't even know what Eschaton is, nor do I get anything from MO.

This conclusion isn't based on emotion, it's based on observable evidence (both empiracle and anecdotal) that's multi-sourced.

Enlightened no...but informed yes!

-spence

Your just the kind of Republican the party dosen't need!! There are enough turn-coats in politics now!!!!
Turn coat?

The entire GOP has cast aside traditional conservatisim for a new radically progressive authoritarian rule. It's they who are the turn-coats.

Think about what being a conservative meant to the likes of Barry Goldwater and then look at today.

Stop defining yourself by what you are not and take inventory of what you are!

-spence

Turn coat?

The entire GOP has cast aside traditional conservatisim for a new radically progressive authoritarian rule. It's they who are the turn-coats.

Think about what being a conservative meant to the likes of Barry Goldwater and then look at today.

Stop defining yourself by what you are not and take inventory of what you are!

-spence

I can't believe your comparing yourself to Barry Goldwater, you couldn't make a pimple on Goldwaters ass.

For that matter, you couldn't make a pimple on any Republican's ASS. Including ME!!!!

I can't believe your comparing yourself to Barry Goldwater, you couldn't make a pimple on Goldwaters ass.
I have a lot of admiration for Goldwater, although I'm not a classic Goldwater conservative, never said I was.

But if you think Goldwater is in any way aligned with the GOP of the past 12 years then you're either in complete denial or don't have a good understanding of what was then and what is now.

A very good book I'd recomend is John Dean's "Conservatives Without Conscience" which goes into this subject in great detail.

I'd be happy to send you a copy if you promise to read it :think:

-spence

On one of the "other " Boards a guy has the tag line that I think says it all. It's a quote from Sinclair Lewis " When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross".
And the Supreme Court openned the door. And the Americam people were afraid enough to ( I won't say re-lect) vote him back in.

I have a lot of admiration for Goldwater, although I'm not a classic Goldwater conservative, never said I was.

But if you think Goldwater is in any way aligned with the GOP of the past 12 years then you're either in complete denial or don't have a good understanding of what was then and what is now.

A very good book I'd recomend is John Dean's "Conservatives Without Conscience" which goes into this subject in great detail.

I'd be happy to send you a copy if you promise to read it :think:

-spence

JUST BECAUSE IT'S PRINTED DOSEN'T MAKE IT FACT!

One by one the Democratic Party keeps having to abandon all the insane positions that have made it the funny, silly party we've come to know and love!! I still say,".308 holes make Invisible Souls"

JUST BECAUSE IT'S PRINTED DOSEN'T MAKE IT FACT!

One by one the Democratic Party keeps having to abandon all the insane positions that have made it the funny, silly party we've come to know and love!! I still say,".308 holes make Invisible Souls"
You really can't deal with it can you?

Goldwater's understudy and personal friend documents the sad shape of the GOP and it still has no merrit?

I'm not sure of your Dem attack. Was it to illustrate the meaning of "inane" or "pointless".

This is the problem with the GOP today, all emotion...no reality.

-spence

Well, we would have to discuss the further next week when I return,
I have a plane to catch. But, rest asure, I'll be back next week!!

Well, we would have to discuss the further next week when I return,
I have a plane to catch. But, rest asure, I'll be back next week!!
I'm sure you can pick up a copy of Dean's book (still in hardcover unfortunately) in the airport :)

-spence

I'm sure you can pick up a copy of Dean's book (still in hardcover unfortunately) in the airport :)

-spence


Why do I doubt UFFAH! is headed for Barnes & Noble. :grins:

anyone remember when if you were working class you were a democrat?

except for the wealthy politicians and other wealthy democrats :spin: