View Full Version : Interesting read on the War in Iraq


Bliz
08-25-2006, 07:46 PM
Please take the time to read the attached essay by Dr. Chong. It is
without a doubt the most articulate and convincing writing I have read
regarding the War in Iraq. If you have any doubts please open your
mind to his essay and give a fair evaluation.

Subject: Muslims, terrorists and the USA. A different spin on Iraq war.

This WAR is for REAL! Dr. Vernon Chong, Major General, USAF, Retired

To get out of a difficulty, one usually must go through it. Our country is now facing the most serious threat to its existence, as we know it, that we have faced in your lifetime and mine (which includes WWII).

The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are very few of us who think we can possibly lose this war and even fewer who realize what losing really means.

First, let's examine a few basics:

1. When did the threat to us start? Many will say September 11, 2001. The answer as far as the United States is concerned is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the following attacks on us:

* Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979;
* Beirut, Lebanon Embassy 1983;
* Beirut, Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983;
* Lockerbie, Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988;
* First New York World Trade Center attack 1993;
* Dhahran, Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996;
* Nairobi, Kenya US Embassy 1998;
* Dares Salaam, Tanzania US Embassy 1998;
* Aden, Yemen USS Cole 2000;
* New York World Trade Center 2001;
* Pentagon 2001.

(Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581
terrorist attacks worldwide).

2. Why were we attacked?

Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks happened during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2. We cannot fault either the Republicans or Democrats as there were no provocations by any of the presidents or their immediate predecessors, Presidents Ford or Carter.

3. Who were the attackers?

In each case, the attacks on the US were carried out by Muslims.

4. What is the Muslim population of the World? 25%of the total.

5. Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful?

Hopefully, but that is really not material. There is no doubt that the
predominately Christian population of Germany was peaceful, but under thedictatorial leadership of Hitler (who was also Christian), that made nodifference. You either went along with the administration or you wereeliminated. There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by the Nazis for political reasons (including 7,000 Polish priests).
(see http://www.nazis.testimony.co.uk/7-a.htm<http://www.nazis.testimony.co.=
uk/7-a.htm>)

Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis, as the six million holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we seldom heard of anything other than the Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler kept the world focused on the Jews, he had no hesitancy about killing anyone who got in his way of exterminating the Jews or of taking over the world - German, Christian or any others.

Same with the Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on the US, but kill all in the way -- their own people or the Spanish, French or anyone else. The point here is that just like the peaceful Germans were of no protection to anyone from the Nazis, no matter how many peaceful Muslims there may be, they are no protection for us from the terrorist Muslim leaders and what they are fanatically bent on doing -- by their own pronouncements -- killing all of us "infidels." I don't blame the peaceful Muslims. What would you do if the choice was shut up or die?

6. So who are we at war with?

There is no way we can honestly respond
that it is anyone other than the Muslim terrorists. Trying to be politically
correct and avoid verbalizing this conclusion can well be fatal. There is no
way to win if you don't clearly recognize and articulate who you are
fighting.

So with that background, now to the two major questions:

1. Can we lose this war?

2. What does losing really mean?

If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questions We
can definitely lose this war, and as anomalous as it may sound, the major
reason we can lose is that so many of us simply do not fathom the answer to
the second question - What does losing mean?

It would appear that a great many of us think that losing the war means
hanging our heads, bringing the troops home and going on about our business,
like post Vietnam. This is as far from the truth as one can get.

What losing really means is:

We would no longer be the premier country in the world. The attacks will
not subside, but rather will steadily increase. Remember, they want us dead,
not just quiet. If they had just wanted us quiet, they would not have
produced an increasing series of attacks against us, over the past 18 years.
The plan was clearly, for terrorist to attack us, until we were neutered and
submissive to them.

We would of course have no future support from other nations, for fear of
reprisals and for the reason that they would see, we are impotent and cannot
help them.

They will pick off the other non-Muslim nations, one at a time. It will be
increasingly easier for them. They already hold Spain hostage. It doesn't
matter whether it was right or wrong for Spain to withdraw its troops from
Iraq. Spain did it because the Muslim terrorists bombed their train and told
them to withdraw the troops. Anything else they want Spain to do will be
done. Spain is finished.

The next will probably be France. Our one hope on France is that they
might see the light and realize that if we don't win, they are finished too,
in that they can't resist the Muslim terrorists without us. However, it may
already be too late for France. France is already 20% Muslim and fading
fast!

If we lose the war, our production, income, exports and way of life will
all vanish as we know it. After losing, who would trade or deal with us, if
they were threatened by the Muslims? If we can't stop the Muslims, how could
anyone else?

The Muslims fully know what is riding on this war, and therefore are
completely committed to winning, at any cost. We'd better know it too and be
likewise committed to winning at any cost.
>
> Why do I go on at such lengths about the results of losing? Simple.
> Until we recognize the costs of losing, we cannot unite and really put
100% of our thoughts and efforts into winning And it is going to take that
100% effort to win.
>
> So, how can we lose the war?
>
> Again, the answer is simple.
> We can lose the war by "imploding." That is, defeating ourselves by
refusing to recognize the enemy and their purpose, and really digging in and
lending full support to the war effort.
> If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. If we continue to be
divided, there is no way that we can win!
>
> Let me give you a few examples of how we simply don't comprehend the life
and death seriousn ess of this situation.
>
> President Bush selects Norman Mineta as Secretary of Transportation.
Although all of the terrorist attacks were committed by Muslim men between
17 and 40 years of age, Secretary Mineta refuses to allow profiling. Does
that sound like we are taking this thing seriously? This is war! For the
duration, we are going to have to give up some of the civil rights we have
become accustomed to. We had better be prepared to lose some of our civil
rights temporarily or we will most certainly lose all of them permanently.

And don't worry that it is a slippery slope. We gave up plenty of civil
rights during WWII, and immediately restored them after the victory and in
fact, added many more since then.

Do I blame President Bush or President Clinton before him?

No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of our Political
Correctness, and all of our civil rights during this conflict and have a
clean, lawful, honorable war. None of those words apply to war. Get them out
of your head!

Some have gone so far in their criticism of the war and/or the
Administration that it almost seems they would literally like to see us
lose. I hasten to add that this isn't because they are disloyal. It is
because they just don't recognize what losing means. Nevertheless, that
conduct gives the impression to the enemy that we are divided and weakening.
It concerns our friends, and it does great damage to our cause.

Of more recent vintage, the uproar fueled by the politicians and media
regarding the treatment of some prisoners of war, perhaps exemplifie best
what I am saying. We have recently had an issue, involving the treatment of
a few Muslim prisoners of war, by a small group of our military police.
These are the type prisoners who just a few months ago were throwing their
own people off buildings, cutting off their hands, cutting out their tongues
and otherwise murdering their own people just for disagreeing with Saddam
Hussein.

And just a few years ago these same type prisoners chemically killed
400,000 of their own people for the same reason. They are also the same type
of enemy fighters, who recently were burning Americans, and dragging their
charred corpses through the streets of Iraq. And still more recently, the
same type of enemy that was and is providing videos to all news sources
internationally, of the beheading of American prisoners they held.

Compare this with some of our press and politicians, who for several days
have thought and talked about nothing else but the "humiliating" of some
Muslim prisoners -- not burning them, not dragging their charred corpses
through the streets, not beheading them, but "humiliating" them.

Can this be for real?

The politicians and pundits have even talked of impeachment of the
Secretary of Defense. If this doesn't show the complete lack of
comprehension and understanding of the seriousness of the enemy we are
fighting, the life and death struggle we are in and the disastrous results
of losing this war, nothing can.

To bring our country to a virtual political standstill over this prisoner
issue makes us look like Nero playing his fiddle as Rome burned --
totally oblivious to what is going on in the real world. Neither we, nor
any other country, can survive this internal strife. Again I say, this
does not mean that some of our politicians or media people are disloyal.
It simply means that they are absolutely oblivious to the magnitude,
of the situation we are in and into which the Muslim terrorists have been
pushing us, for many years.

Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels!
That translates into ALL non-Muslims -- not just in the United States, but
throughout the world. We are the last bastion of defense.

We have been criticized for many years as being 'arrogant.' That charge is
valid in at least one respect. We are arrogant in that we believe that we
are so good, powerful and smart, that we can win the hearts and
minds of all those who attack us, and that with both hands tied behind our
back, we can defeat anything bad in the world! We can't!

If we don't recognize this, our nation as we know it will not survive,
and no other free country in the world will survive if we are defeated.

And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that allow
freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of the
press, equal rights for anyone -- let alone everyone, equal status
or any status for women, or that have been productive in one single way
that contributes to the good of the world.

This has been a long way of saying that we must be united on this war or
we will be equated in the history books to the self-inflicted fall of the
Roman Empire . If, that is, the Muslim leaders will allow history
books to be written or read.

If we don't win this war right now, keep a close eye on how the Muslims
take over France in the next 5 years or less. They will continue to increase
the Muslim population of France and continue to encroach, little by little,
on the established French traditions. The French will be
fighting among themselves, over what should or should not be done, which
will continue to weaken them and keep them from any united resolve. Doesn't
that sound eerily familiar?

Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some
external military force. Instead, they give their freedoms away,
politically correct piece by politically correct piece

And they are giving those freedoms away to those who have shown, worldwide
that they abhor freedom and will not apply it to you or even to themselves,
once they are in power.

They have universally shown that when they have taken over, they then
start brutally killing each other over who will be the few who control
the masses. Will we ever stop hearing from the politically correct, about
the "peaceful Muslims?"

I close on a hopeful note, by repeating what I said above. If we are
united, there is no way that we can lose. I hope now after the
election, the factions in our country will begin to focus on the critical
situation we are in, and will unite to save our country. It is your future
we are talking about! Do whatever you can to preserve it.

After reading the above, we all must do this not only for ourselves, but
for our children, our grandchildren, our country and the world.

Whether Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal, and that includes
the all the Politicians and media of our country and the
free world, we must unite to defeat this scourge upon the earth!

Please forward this to any you feel may want, or NEED to read it. Our
"leaders" in Congress ought to read it, too. There are those that find fault with our country, but it is obvious to anyone who truly thinks through this, that we must UNITE!

Go to the following Air Force website and read about Dr. Vernon Chong, Major General, USAF, Retired

stripersnipr
08-25-2006, 08:13 PM
Must be one of those Retired Major General Neocon Bushbot Fearmongers.

spence
08-25-2006, 08:32 PM
I'll save you the verbose retort...but I'm afraid I don't see the author's point...

There's really no call to action. So we need to defeat terrorisim...like duh?

The real question is, how many of your freedoms and values are you willing to sacrifice to do it?

-spence

Skitterpop
08-25-2006, 08:50 PM
The real question is, how many of your freedoms and values are you willing to sacrifice to do it?

-spence

The real answer must be whatever it takes. Many lifetimes will the struggle continue.

spence
08-25-2006, 09:14 PM
The real answer must be whatever it takes. Many lifetimes will the struggle continue.
But the author didn't really define the problem, just the cost of failure!

How then can it be what ever it takes?

-spence

hulkyj61
08-25-2006, 09:22 PM
Does anyone except the ACLU, and other far left organizations care if airport and transportation security decides to profile??? Having lost a close friend to the 9/11 attacks I could care less. It's about time we stop pulling aside grandmothers and 6 year old kids from security lines and start looking for bearded middle easterners. I have not seen a 6 year old Bostonian Irish kid screaming "death to America" on TV yet, so why bother being politically correct and start being smart.

Skip N
08-25-2006, 09:33 PM
Does anyone except the ACLU, and other far left organizations care if airport and transportation security decides to profile??? Having lost a close friend to the 9/11 attacks I could care less. It's about time we stop pulling aside grandmothers and 6 year old kids from security lines and start looking for bearded middle easterners. I have not seen a 6 year old Bostonian Irish kid screaming "death to America" on TV yet, so why bother being politically correct and start being smart.

Amen

spence
08-25-2006, 09:52 PM
Does anyone except the ACLU, and other far left organizations care if airport and transportation security decides to profile??? Having lost a close friend to the 9/11 attacks I could care less. It's about time we stop pulling aside grandmothers and 6 year old kids from security lines and start looking for bearded middle easterners. I have not seen a 6 year old Bostonian Irish kid screaming "death to America" on TV yet, so why bother being politically correct and start being smart.

Skippy, curse your word.

Because that's what makes America great...we have laws and we believe in equality.

That's not to say we shouldn't profile based on behavior, but not on ethnicity or religion.

To sacrifice our freedom is like handing Bin Laden another win...we can't do it...we must stay true to what makes America the best place on Earth.

-spence

Skip N
08-25-2006, 10:09 PM
Skippy, curse your word.

Because that's what makes America great...we have laws and we believe in equality.

That's not to say we shouldn't profile based on behavior, but not on ethnicity or religion.

To sacrifice our freedom is like handing Bin Laden another win...we can't do it...we must stay true to what makes America the best place on Earth.

-spence

Well, when you fly, you can take nice long looks at 90 year old grandmothers if it makes ya feel all warm an fuzzy inside. But me, i'm taking a close look at all middle eastern folks that may be boarding my flight. Who in thier right mind wouldn't? Oh wait, Spence wouldn't, because he's better than the rest of us, and he as all the solutions to the worlds problems, how soon i forget.

In the words of country group Montgomery Gentry...."You do your thing, I'll do mine"

spence
08-25-2006, 10:16 PM
Yea, America was built on fear...keep being afraid and see where it gets ya...

Perhaps you can get a few Arab Americans thrown off your plane because you don't like how they look...

Now that would be success in the war on terror!

-spence

Skip N
08-25-2006, 10:57 PM
Yea, America was built on fear...keep being afraid and see where it gets ya...

Perhaps you can get a few Arab Americans thrown off your plane because you don't like how they look...

Now that would be success in the war on terror!

-spence

Next time a middle eastern dude blows up an airliner,trian, or suicide bombs your local mall, maybe you'll reconsider. And yes, sadly i believe these kinds of attcks will come at some point. But you still won't admit who the enemy is and where he comes from and what he looks like. Why you cant do this is beyond me. Its right in front of you, but you just cant admit who the likely terror suspects looks like. typical liberal touchy feely bull%$%$%$%$!

Please tell us Spence, if we can't profile and take a look at any Middle eastern folks boarding Jets for fear we might offend them. What is your brilliant plan to screen people who fit a certain profile of a likely terror suspect? Just let em all through gates and keep our fingers crossed!? Now thats a great plan ya got there!!:err:

Dude, join reality will ya!

spence
08-25-2006, 11:27 PM
It's not about reality, it's about racisim...you do know the difference right?

-spence

Skitterpop
08-25-2006, 11:43 PM
But the author didn't really define the problem, just the cost of failure!

How then can it be what ever it takes?

-spence

Thats my answer not the authors. Lay down and die or fight.
Talk is cheap.

slapshot
08-26-2006, 06:18 AM
It's not about reality, it's about racisim...you do know the difference right?

-spence

Now there is the fear mongering. You are AFRAID of being labeled racist for profiling arab terrorists. In reality, that is not racist. Just like the author above states, we need to be united and willing to give up some of our "rights" to win this war. I'd give up this right in a heartbeat.

If you asked 100 Americans if they were willing to give up the right to only pull old ladys and chlidren out of the security line for a thorough frisking, I think we all know how 99 will vote.

spence
08-26-2006, 07:47 AM
You are AFRAID of being labeled racist for profiling arab terrorists.
Nonsense...you're simply attempting to use my words against me.

There's reasonable profiling and unreasonable profiling...I'm not afraid of being labeled anything.

But if the American people want to be afraid of Arabs then we should amend our founding documents, last time I checked they said something about eveyone being created equal :fishslap:

-spence

stripersnipr
08-26-2006, 08:24 AM
Spence is correct. There is reasonable profiling and unreasonable profiling. Reasonable profiling targets Middle Eastern men between the ages of 20 to 45 years old. Unreasonable profiling is targeting 80 year old women and 6 year old children. Spence is also correct that we should not scrifice our Freedoms. The one Freedom I first and foremost refuse to sacrifice is the Freedom to be alive. Want to talk about reality? The reality is a large group of Middle Eastern men 20 to 45 year old have targeted all Americans for death. One of their preferred and proven weapons to achieve that goal is commercial jetliners. The vast majority of Americans demand those individuals be specifically targeted for increased airport security screening. I refuse to forsake the safety of my friends and family in support of some whacked out sense of Political Correctness.

spence
08-26-2006, 08:47 AM
Good lord, this sounds like an al Qaeda recruiting message.

It's amazing how those who proclaim liberals to be whimps are the first to turn poodle to Osama and lay down our freedoms.

You can score another win for Bin Laden.

-spence

Skitterpop
08-26-2006, 09:00 AM
Good lord, this sounds like an al Qaeda recruiting message.

It's amazing how those who proclaim liberals to be whimps are the first to turn poodle to Osama and lay down our freedoms.

You can score another win for Bin Laden.

-spence


You my friend are a troublemaker :wave: We might be related :laugha:

ps. I signed you up for the Marines

stripersnipr
08-26-2006, 10:30 AM
Good lord, this sounds like an al Qaeda recruiting message.

It's amazing how those who proclaim liberals to be whimps are the first to turn poodle to Osama and lay down our freedoms.

You can score another win for Bin Laden.

-spence Some people are not afraid to target and offend the speciific group that is targeting us and some people are afraid. And if you are one of those afraid to offend I guess wimp could be an accurate description. By insisting that our Government target the specific demographic that wishes us harm for additional security srutiny I am forsaking Freedom? Ridiculous argument. Talk apout a pre-9/11 mentality. You actually believe Bin-Laden thinks that by us Targeting his Terrorist minions he has won a victory? Pure old fashioned common sense tells us that Bin Ladens victory comes at the point that a portion of the American people would fight to protect his group from the additional scrutiny that would prevent them from applying their trade. I'm sure he is grateful to you, but he still wants you dead.

stormfish
08-26-2006, 12:08 PM
Basically the US government bit more than it can chew. The war on Iraq is wrong to begin with. During the spur of 9/11, it seemed like the right thing to do, but at this point it is clear on how we approached the situation was 'Naive'. If we wanted to protect ourselves from terrorisim, why not spend more on homeland security than going into war and esculating the situation at the source.

Now we have the next generation of Arabs raised to hate the US because we screwed up their country, government and killed people without sympathy. The U.S. Goverment is refusing to admit defeat or failure in their Middle east affairs, so let's try to rebuild what our goverment broke. No matter what we do in future plans, this war will be labeled as the U.S.' biggest failure.

Our policy on the 'War on Terror' seems have influence Isreal's policies and tactics. It looks like Isreal's 'Might' in the Middle East causes concern for countries like Iran and Syria who need to buff up inorder to compete with such brutal strength. Wait a minute, Isreal are our allies and we provide them with bombs and F-16s. That would mean we will be drag into Isreals affairs pending on circumstances. Would love to discuss more on the brewing of WWIII but, I believe it's the wrong thread. :poke:

spence
08-26-2006, 06:45 PM
Some people are not afraid to target and offend the speciific group that is targeting us and some people are afraid.
The specific group we're targeting just happens to not be Arabs or Muslims but people who behave like TERRORISTS...

Keep feeding Bin Laden more PR to incite the masses why don't ya...the job is hard enough as it is.

-spence

stripersnipr
08-26-2006, 07:51 PM
The specific group we're targeting just happens to not be Arabs or Muslims but people who behave like TERRORISTS...

Keep feeding Bin Laden more PR to incite the masses why don't ya...the job is hard enough as it is.

-spence

Please explain how Terrorists behave then we can easily pick them out of the crowd and all our troubles will disappear. And if I am inciting or in any way upsetting Terrorists please forgive me. :wall:

Skip N
08-26-2006, 10:50 PM
How do we tell who is a terroist and who isnt? You don't think these thugs are trained to be calm as they go about doing thier thing? They blend right in with the crowd, thats what makes them so deadly. This is why we need to give middle eastern folks a little more screening, we cant tell the good from the bad.

Spence, if profiling turned out to be the best way to prevent future attacks, and we knew it would work, would you still oppose it? Even if it meant saving a jetliner, with a few hundred people on board from going down?

spence
08-27-2006, 07:58 AM
Please explain how Terrorists behave then we can easily pick them out of the crowd and all our troubles will disappear. And if I am inciting or in any way upsetting Terrorists please forgive me. :wall:
Listen to any expert and they can give dozens of legally observed indicators that will provide a profile that's threatening (such as travel behavior, relationships etc...).

Terrorists can come from all walks of life. 1/3 of the Muslims in this country are black by the way...should we be stopping all black people as well?

It simply makes no sense in practice...oh, it's also racist.

Skipper, the real experts aren't usually the ones calling for racial profiling, it's more often the political right-wingers and social conservatives (i.e. Pat Robertson) using race and religion to incite fear in the masses. Perhaps some of these people think the Crusades are still going on...

And yes, this does play directly into Bin Laden's plans.

The more you demonize or defame all Muslims, the more you create sympathy among moderate Islam for the same political causes terrorists leverage as justification for their heinous actions.

We have a generation of Americans being told that Islam is the problem, which is a very weak argument when you think about it...the other side can simply say that we're the problem.

If you're trying to set up the End of Ages and a fight for the planet than this type of rhetoric may make sense. But if our goal is innovation and economic growth in a global economy it's quite counter productive to the American way of life.

And please save the "pre 9/11" mindset for the #^&#^&#^&#^& Cheney sound bites...the man holds the US Constitution in about as high of regard as a roll of Charmin (2 ply).

More rhetoric intended to divide Americans for political gain...and another win for the enemy.

-spence

stripersnipr
08-27-2006, 08:31 AM
At the end of the day common sense does prevail because our Law enforcement, intelligence, military and security forces do understand where the threat lies and they do and will continue to apply a far higher level of scrutiny upon those who fit the profile..........and another win for the people of America.

Skip N
08-27-2006, 10:32 AM
Thank God Spence doesnt work for the TSA screening passengers :err:

stripersnipr
08-27-2006, 10:38 AM
And these are the people who proclaim they can do a better job of protecting America.

Swimmer
08-27-2006, 10:41 AM
Its kind of ironic that I brought forward the nazi argument/theory a few months ago and the liberal naysayers, Spence for one, said my thoughts were way off base.

spence
08-27-2006, 10:59 AM
At the end of the day common sense does prevail because our Law enforcement, intelligence, military and security forces do understand where the threat lies and they do and will continue to apply a far higher level of scrutiny upon those who fit the profile..........and another win for the people of America.
Now there's a strategy, let enforcement interpret their own laws!

Common sense is relative.

-spence

spence
08-27-2006, 11:00 AM
Its kind of ironic that I brought forward the nazi argument/theory a few months ago and the liberal naysayers, Spence for one, said my thoughts were way off base.
Swim, first off I'd like to know what I'm saying that's "liberal" and second...you'll have to refresh on the Nazi thing. I don't recall.

-spence

spence
08-27-2006, 11:02 AM
And these are the people who proclaim they can do a better job of protecting America.
Compared to what?

And please don't give me that "we haven't been hit" Cheneyisim.

-spence

Swimmer
08-27-2006, 11:13 AM
A while ago I made a statement that the muslim fanatics who strip people of thier basic human rights, such as education(females), and refused to let people watch tv or listen to radios and do many other activities were much the same as the nazis in the 30's & 40's, and you said I was, without being able to quote exactly, wrong.

Skip N
08-27-2006, 11:48 AM
A while ago I made a statement that the muslim fanatics who strip people of thier basic human rights, such as education(females), and refused to let people watch tv or listen to radios and do many other activities were much the same as the nazis in the 30's & 40's, and you said I was, without being able to quote exactly, wrong.

You're right on, although i would actually compare the mindset of the Radical Muslims to the Japaneese of the WWII era, they were total fanatics and never surrendered, they would commit suicude rather than fall into US hands. This was the mindset of the average Japaneese soldier and civilaians alike. Total fanatics. The average german soldier on the other hand,understood when it was time to call it quits and surrender, and they would surrender by the thousands. They were not even close to being as fanatical as the Japs in my opinion. The SS and the high ranking brass were total nut jobs of course, but the average soldier was not.

Radical Islam will not surrender, they have that Japaneese WWII mindset. Only total destruction of the Radicals will prevail. Sorry Spence, i know you dont wanna hear that!

Spence, are you one of the guys who still opposes the use of the atomic Bombs to end WWII? Even though by dropping those babys we saved an estimated 1 million american soldiers lives? And yes, those were estimates for a mainland invasion of Japan. I just have a funny feeling you would've opposed dropping the bombs:hs:

stripersnipr
08-27-2006, 12:30 PM
Compared to what?

And please don't give me that "we haven't been hit" Cheneyisim.

-spence

Yeah.......God forbid we dare state a fact.

spence
08-27-2006, 01:23 PM
Yeah.......God forbid we dare state a fact.
Any why exactly is it that we haven't?

Is it because of how much tighter Bush hasn't made our borders?

Is it because of the still un-upgraded FBI computers that hindered 9/11?

Is it because of the bloody sectarian civil war in Iraq?

Or is it because they haven't yet chosen the time and place to upstage 9/11?

Listen to the former Bin Laden expert from the CIA and he'll tell you this is precisely the reason. They went 8 years between attacks the last time...what makes you think they're in a hurry?

In fact, with how our country has been behaving the past 4 years, and the current challenges in Iran and North Korea...al Qaeda doesn't really need to hit us at home...yet.

-spence

spence
08-27-2006, 01:26 PM
A while ago I made a statement that the muslim fanatics who strip people of thier basic human rights, such as education(females), and refused to let people watch tv or listen to radios and do many other activities were much the same as the nazis in the 30's & 40's, and you said I was, without being able to quote exactly, wrong.
Search isn't working, but I seem to remember the parallel as being somewhat different. I'll look at it later...

-spence

spence
08-27-2006, 01:28 PM
Radical Islam will not surrender, they have that Japaneese WWII mindset. Only total destruction of the Radicals will prevail. Sorry Spence, i know you dont wanna hear that.
Skipper, I don't think you really grasp the mindset of these people.

Bin Laden isn't crazy...far from it.

9/11 wasn't an attack to kill infidels simply because they were. It was in their eyes a defensive counterattack. We're not fighting a bunch of mindless fanatics, it's a global insurgency.

-spence

Skip N
08-27-2006, 10:12 PM
Listen to the former Bin Laden expert from the CIA and he'll tell you this is precisely the reason. They went 8 years between attacks the last time...what makes you think they're in a hurry?

-spence

Do you watch the news? Two weeks ago we stopped a potential major attack designed to blow up numerous jetliners over major cities here in the US. And you say nothing has gotten better since 9/11?? I even heard we wire tapped these dirt bags, you know, that stuff you and youe lefty buddies oppose so much. And you wonder why the American people don't trust the left on National Security!?

spence
08-27-2006, 10:28 PM
Yep, and it was a multi-national effort of law enforcement that still (to my knowledge) hasn't been attributed to alQaeda directly...

So much for fighting them over there, so we don't have to fight them over here :rolleyes:

Skipper, it's an INSURGENCY...

-spence

Skip N
08-27-2006, 10:43 PM
Yep, and it was a multi-national effort of law enforcement that still (to my knowledge) hasn't been attributed to alQaeda directly...

So much for fighting them over there, so we don't have to fight them over here :rolleyes:

Skipper, it's an INSURGENCY...

-spence

Who cares if thier Al Qaeda or not? Al Qeada, Hezolah, Hamas, local homegrown cells, etc. are all radical terrosist groups, Al Qaeada is but one threat we face, the others are just as dangerous. And of course, they have one thing in common, Radical Islam! The fact is, a major attack that was to be carried out by radical Islam was stopped because of the great work done by the Brits, US and tips from Pakistan. But you still spew your propoganda about how we arent safer. Sounds to me like what we're doing is working buddy!

spence
08-28-2006, 03:01 AM
Who cares if thier Al Qaeda or not? Al Qeada, Hezolah, Hamas, local homegrown cells, etc. are all radical terrosist groups, Al Qaeada is but one threat we face, the others are just as dangerous. And of course, they have one thing in common, Radical Islam! The fact is, a major attack that was to be carried out by radical Islam was stopped because of the great work done by the Brits, US and tips from Pakistan. But you still spew your propoganda about how we arent safer. Sounds to me like what we're doing is working buddy!
Skippy, your appreciation for the world as it isn't is quite astounding.

Where exactly do you get your information?

-spence

RIJIMMY
08-28-2006, 12:42 PM
Bin Laden isn't crazy...far from it.


-spence

No he is not crazy, he is a FANATIC. He uses his brains and affluence to kill people at all costs. The reason? Religious fervor. Islam fanatcism.
To some of us, that means he is crazy, a wacko, freak, etc.


Spence, you seem to think there is this consortium of radical islam with a well thought out plan, an agenda based on historical poliycial misjudgements from the west. What you really have is religious zealots, pent on killing and disrupting civilized countries and economies. The failure to recognize this is EXACTLY what the writer of the article above was trying to get at.
If your family is blown up in a Burger King, it will not help the Islamic cause, change goverment policy or spread Islam, however...it will be a succes for radical Islam, people will cheer and celebrate. Its not about Dems or Repubs, its not about righting the wrongs of the past, its about killing you. That is there goal.

spence
08-28-2006, 12:59 PM
What you really have is religious zealots, pent on killing and disrupting civilized countries and economies. The failure to recognize this is EXACTLY what the writer of the article above was trying to get at.
And why I think they're missing the point. 9/11 wasn't an act of religious zealotry, it was a political response. That's not to say that Islam doesn't influence the actions of some terrorists, but the expression is has to do with political elements of human nature.

Terrorists attact because of rage, humiliation etc...not because the Koran made them do it.

I'd wager that the threat has been characterized this way for a simple reason...it's easier for people to swallow.

Skipper is a perfect example of this. To group alQaeda, Hezbollah and Hamas together as threats because of their religious extremism defies observable fact. It's prepackaging done for domestic consumption to distract the people from the real nuances of the situation, which require more effort to change than we're being told.

-spence

RIJIMMY
08-28-2006, 01:04 PM
I think you're way off. Political response? Whose? What political group is being represented?

stripersnipr
08-28-2006, 01:08 PM
I think you're way off. Political response? Whose? What political group is being represented?

The Democrats

RIJIMMY
08-28-2006, 01:10 PM
Take a deep breath Spence, about to prove you are WAY wrong You said 9/11 was NOT an act of religious zealotry? Here is an exceprt from ole' Osama himself. I guess he failed to mention the political aims of the attack or his plans for peace and prosperity. I'd post the whole thing but the 99% of it was "Praise Allah, Infidels" Allah...blah blah

UBL: (...Inaudible...) when people see a strong horse and a weak horse, by nature, they will like the strong horse. This is only one goal; those who want people to worship the lord of the people, without following that doctrine, will be following the doctrine of Muhammad, peace be upon him. (UBL quotes several short and incomplete Hadith verses, as follows): "I was ordered to fight the people until they say there is no god but Allah, and his prophet Muhammad." "Some people may ask: why do you want to fight us?" "There is an association between those who say: I believe in one god and Muhammad is his prophet, and those who don't (...inaudible...) "Those who do not follow the true fiqh. The fiqh of Muhammad, the real fiqh. They are just accepting what is being said at face value."

UBL: Those youth who conducted the operations did not accept any fiqh in the popular terms, but they accepted the fiqh that the prophet Muhammad brought. Those young men (...inaudible...) said in deeds, in New York and Washington, speeches that overshadowed all other speeches made everywhere else in the world. The speeches are understood by both Arabs and non-Arabs-even by Chinese. It is above all the media said. Some of them said that in Holland, at one of the centers, the number of people who accepted Islam during the days that followed the operations were more than the people who accepted Islam in the last eleven years. I heard someone on Islamic radio who owns a school in America say: "We don't have time to keep up with the demands of those who are asking about Islamic books to learn about Islam." This event made people think (about true Islam) which benefited Islam greatly.

spence
08-28-2006, 01:45 PM
Not sure where you're going with the quotes...you're not proving much of anything.

Several of the 9/11 hijackers were are strip clubs boozing it up before the attacks...these don't sound like religous zealots to me.

Bin Laden was very clear that 9/11 was (in their mind) a defensive attack in response to negative Western influence in the Islamic world. It's about the Palestenians, Chechens, Iraqis and supporting the Saudi Regime etc...

Their aims are political, but wrapped in the Koran. The desire to establish a caliphate and central Islamic state is a political goal driven by what they see as failures in democratic and socialist systems. They are fighting to give Muslims a better way...in this they are like Trotskyites.

The war is political, but the opponents fight as devout Muslims. Hence Bin Laden offering for Americans to convert etc...it's in the Koran. Concepts like jihad are abstract and subject to wild interpretation.

I could go on and on...but I'd suggest reading some good literature that presents a wildly different point of view. The truth as is often the case lies in the middle.

-spence

RIJIMMY
08-28-2006, 01:54 PM
here s swhere I am going with the quotes.

1. "I was ordered to fight the people until they say there is no god but Allah, and his prophet Muhammad."
2. "This event (9/11) made people think (about true Islam) which benefited Islam greatly."

spence
08-28-2006, 02:14 PM
here s swhere I am going with the quotes.

1. "I was ordered to fight the people until they say there is no god but Allah, and his prophet Muhammad."
2. "This event (9/11) made people think (about true Islam) which benefited Islam greatly."
It's my understanding that strict adherance to the Koran dictates you must give your enemy the chance to surrender before you attack them...In essence that's what Bin Laden was saying in 1. Come on over, let's just get along...

But this shouldn't be confused for what it isn't. It's a procedural matter, but not the justification for the attack in the first place.

As for number 2...9/11 did get people to think about Islam. I'm not sure it's benefited Islam as much has hurt in the short run. But as they say, there's no such thing as bad PR :)

-spence