View Full Version : Dictator or Not?


stormfish
09-01-2006, 08:44 AM
A Democratic Dictatorship
by Jacob G. Hornberger

Amidst all the discussion and debate about whether President Bush has violated the law by ordering the National Security Agency (NSA) to record telephone conversations, we must not overlook an important fact: the United States is now traveling in uncharted waters, ones in which the ruler of the nation is exercising omnipotent power over the American people. A more appropriate word would be one that offends some Americans when it is applied to their system of government: dictatorship. But as uncomfortable as that term might make Americans, the fact is that ever since 9/11 Americans have been living under dictatorial rule.

What is a dictator? A dictator is a ruler whose powers are omnipotent, that is, unconstrained by external or superior law. A dictator has the power to take whatever actions he wants without concerning himself about whether they are legal. Anything the dictator does is legal because he is the law.

It wasn’t always that way in the United States. When the Constitution was enacted, its goal was not only to call the federal government into existence but also to ensure that it would not be headed by a dictator. To accomplish that, the Framers inserted language expressly limiting the president to a few well-defined powers. If a power wasn’t enumerated, the president could not legally exercise it. The Constitution was the higher law that governed the actions of all federal officials.

What if the president intentionally violated those restrictions? The Constitution provided two remedies. First, the judicial branch could declare the president’s acts to be in violation of the Constitution and order him to comply with its judgment. As the Supreme Court held in the famous case of Marbury v. Madison, the judicial branch’s determination of constitutionality trumped the president’s opinion of constitutionality.

Second, the Constitution gave the legislative branch of government – the Congress – the power to impeach the president and remove him from office.

What many Americans fail to understand is that it is entirely possible to have democracy and dictatorship at the same time. Democracy entails the use of elections to place people into positions of power. Dictatorship entails the extent of the powers that the ruler is able to exercise after he assumes office.

Therefore, it is entirely possible to have a democratically elected dictator – a person who has been duly elected to office who exercises dictatorial powers. This is exactly the case of George W. Bush.

Some Americans become offended whenever critics bring up the name of Adolf Hitler in discussing the dictatorial powers that President Bush is now exercising. They miss the point. When critics bring up Hitler’s name in the context of Bush’s exercise of dictatorial powers, they’re not suggesting that Bush and Hitler are somehow equivalent evils or that Bush has committed the horrors that Hitler committed.

What they’re instead saying is that Hitler sets a good benchmark for what dictatorship involves. Therefore, he provides a good means by which to measure the powers being exercised by another ruler. If George W. Bush or any other American president exercises the same types of omnipotent powers that Hitler exercised, that should serve as a powerful wake-up call for the American people, who have long wondered how the German people could have allowed Hitler to become a dictator (see my article “How Hitler Became a Dictator”).

Therefore, the issue is not whether Bush is a “good” man, as many of his supporters contend. The issue is whether this “good” man has assumed dictatorial powers in the wake of 9/11. The issue also is whether any man, good or evil, should ever be given dictatorial powers.

In fact, Vice President Cheney was making much the same point when he recently said that Venezuela’s democratically elected president, Hugo Chavez, was comparable to Hitler. Cheney wasn’t suggesting that Chavez had instituted concentration camps in which millions were being killed. What he was saying was that Chavez, albeit democratically elected, was “consolidating power.”

The question that the American people must ask is: Has President Bush been doing the same thing – “consolidating power” – ever since 9/11, especially as part of his “war on terrorism” and his invasion of Iraq? Everyone would have to concede that he has.

Dictatorial powers

Consider the specific powers the president is claiming:

1. The power to order the Pentagon to take any American anywhere in the world, including here in the United States, into custody and punish him, even execute him, without according him the protections of the Bill of Rights. Under this power, all the Pentagon has to do is place a document in front of the president labeling any particular American a “terrorist,” and once the president signs it the Pentagon has the omnipotent power to punish the “terrorist.”

Does the person who is labeled a “terrorist” have the right to appeal such a determination? No. Even if the designated terrorist is a newspaper editor, a prominent celebrity, or a well-known anti-war critic, the president’s determination is final. Keep in mind that, according to the president and the Pentagon, we are at war and neither the courts nor the Congress should be permitted to interfere with the military decisions made by the Pentagon and the commander in chief.

Are there any restraints on the particular type of punishment that the military metes out to a designated terrorist? No. Since the president and the Pentagon consider a terrorist to be an illegal enemy combatant, they refuse to be bound by the Geneva Convention, which provides long-established protections for prisoners of war. No one needs to be reminded of how U.S. military personnel have subjected the “terrorists” held in U.S. facilities at Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, and elsewhere to torture, sex abuse, rape, and murder. While Americans have not been subjected to the same mistreatment, that is simply owing to a discretionary decision by the president and the Pentagon; it could be changed at any time.

2. The power to record telephone conversations of the American people without first securing a search warrant from a magistrate in the judicial branch, as the Bill of Rights requires. In fact, under the president’s rationale, there’s nothing to prevent him from conducting any warrantless searches as long as they are part of the “war on terrorism.”

3. The power to send the entire nation into war against a foreign nation without a declaration of war from Congress, despite the fact that the Constitution expressly delegates that power to Congress, not the president.

No one can deny that those three powers are dictatorial in nature. But it’s important that they be considered in the context of the president’s own justifications for exercising such powers. It is those justifications that have sent America sailing into the uncharted waters of dictatorial rule.

The congressional justification

The president cites two primary justifications for exercising omnipotent power, which he interweaves. First, he says that Congress authorized him to take whatever measures he deemed necessary to seek out and arrest or destroy the terrorists who were responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Second, he says that since we are now at war – the “war on terrorism” – he is able to exercise omnipotent powers as the nation’s military commander in chief.

Bush’s first justification involves the congressional resolution that was enacted in the wake of the 9/11 attacks, which authorized him to use force against those who had conspired to carry out the attacks.

Ironically, Bush’s justification is quite similar to the one that Hitler used to justify his dictatorial powers. After the terrorist attack on the German parliament building, Hitler went to his legislature and argued for a temporary suspension of civil liberties. After heated discussion and debate, including Hitler’s suggestion that such legislation was necessary to protect the freedom of the German people, the necessary number of votes for passage was finally secured. The law granting dictatorial powers to Hitler became known as the “Enabling Act.”

How is this different, in principle, from Bush’s claim that the authorization-of-force resolution that Congress enacted immediately after 9/11 gave him omnipotent powers to deal with the “terrorists”?

There are two major problems with Bush’s reasoning. One is that, unlike Germany’s Enabling Act, which expressly suspended civil liberties, the resolution enacted by Congress did not do any such thing. Yet Bush is effectively interpreting it to mean that Congress granted him what the German Enabling Act granted Hitler – the power to override constitutional protections of civil liberties.

More important, however, is the fact that, under the U.S. Constitution, Congress is not empowered to pass laws that nullify the protections and guarantees in the Constitution. The only way that any provision in the document can be nullified is through constitutional amendment. A statutory attempt to nullify jury trials, search warrant requirements, due process of law, and right to counsel has no legal effect whatsoever.

The commander in chief justification

Bush’s other justification for the assumption and exercise of omnipotent powers is his role as commander in chief of the armed forces during a time of war. What war? The “war on terrorism,” which, again ironically, was the same type of war that Hitler declared after terrorists struck the Reichstag with a firebomb.

There is one crucial difference between Hitler’s claim of power and Bush’s claim of power, however. The Enabling Act was only a temporary grant of powers. Each time it was set to expire, Hitler would duly return to the Reichstag and secure legislation “temporarily” extending it.

Bush’s rationale for his omnipotent powers, on the other hand, is that, as the nation’s military commander in chief in the “war on terrorism,” his omnipotent powers will last as long as the war continues. Of course, since it is impossible to know with any degree of certainty when the last terrorist is exterminated or neutralized, that means that for all practical purposes the “war on terrorism” is perpetual, which means that Bush’s powers are perpetual as well (and will as well be held by his democratically elected successor in 2009).

There is no merit whatsoever, however, to Bush’s argument that the Constitution grants omnipotent powers to a president when he puts on the helmet of a military commander in chief. In fact, there is no suggestion whatsoever in the Constitution that war gives rise to the exercise of any powers that nullify any of the other restrictions on power in the Constitution, especially in the Bill of Rights.

What Bush is relying on is the old European notion of imperial dictatorial powers that were claimed by a ruler when he led his military forces into war against another nation.

Think about Napoleon, who became a dictator by centralizing power, especially in his role as commander in chief of French military forces. Or, closer to home, think of the president of Mexico, Santa Anna, whose centralization of power not only made him the “Napoleon of the West” but also precipitated the insurgency in Texas.

This is how Bush views himself as the nation’s commander in chief – as a Napoleon or a Santa Anna, along with the omnipotent powers that those two dictators exercised. It’s the old European notion of inherent imperial powers granted the sovereign, both as emperor and as commander in chief of the nation’s military forces.

There’s just one big problem with Bush’s analysis, however. Our American ancestors fully and completely rejected the notion of inherent imperial powers with the enactment of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. That, in fact, was one major reason for limiting the powers of the president by expressly enumerating them in the Constitution – to negate the old European notion of “inherent” sovereign powers.

Dictatorship or liberty?

Of course, there are those who say, “The situation is not really that serious. President Bush is a good man. He can be trusted to do the right thing. He won’t abuse these powers. He’s exercised them against only a few Americans.”

They’re missing some important points. One is that no matter how good a man President Bush is, dictatorships are the opposite of liberty and, therefore, are morally wrong, no matter how good or benevolent the dictator is. Moreover, once dictatorial powers are relinquished to a “good man,” there is no assurance that he won’t become a bad man or that a bad man will not succeed him. A good test is: Would I want the most despicable character I can think of – say, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, or Mao Zedong – to have any of these powers over me and my country? If your answer is “No,” then your answer should be the same with respect to George W. Bush.

As history has shown, once a ruler is given dictatorial powers, there is no assurance that the powers will not be expanded to larger groups of people and abused much more extensively, especially if there is a huge crisis that strikes fear and panic among the citizenry. After all, keep in mind that, in the absence of the terrorist strike on the Reichstag, Hitler might well not have been able to secure passage of the Enabling Act. Ask yourself: How would the compliant, Republican-controlled Congress respond to a request by President Bush for an expansion of powers if terrorists exploded a massive bomb today in the middle of the U.S. Capitol?

Unfortunately, many Americans, like other people in history, don’t want to face the disquieting truth about the dark and ominous direction in which their nation is currently headed. They simply wish to bury their heads in the sand and not analyze too closely the logical implications of the president’s and the Pentagon’s position. They don’t want to face that we are now traveling in uncharted waters with respect to dictatorship.

Here is the unvarnished truth that Americans are trying to avoid confronting: Both the president and the Pentagon have repeatedly emphasized that the nation is at war. It is a war against the “terrorists.” In this war, the entire world is the battlefield, including both Iraq and the United States.

In this war, the president is the nation’s commander in chief and, as such, wields omnipotent powers to defeat the enemy and win the war. These powers include the power to arrest and punish Americans as illegal “enemy combatants” – denying them jury trials, due process, lawyers, or any federal court interference. They have the power to take people into custody and transport them to foreign regimes for torture. They have the power to record telephone conversations without warrants.

In other words, the president and the Pentagon have the same powers to wage their “war on terrorism” in the United States as they have in Iraq. Yes, you read that right – Iraq. That is the logical consequence of what these people are saying. They have the power to do everything they’re doing in Iraq right here in the United States: the power to break people’s doors down and search their homes and businesses without warrants; the power to arrest and indefinitely detain people; the power to torture and abuse prisoners and detainees; the power to fire missiles into cars or apartment complexes where the “terrorists” are traveling or hiding out; the power to confiscate guns.

Ultimately, the solution to dictatorship lies with the citizenry – a citizenry whose love of liberty trumps everything else, including fear and the desire to be taken care of. Time will tell whether that love of liberty is still a powerful force within the hearts and minds of the American people – sufficiently powerful to overcome the fear and quest for “security” that currently hold people in their grip – sufficiently powerful to restore freedom to our land.

RIJIMMY
09-01-2006, 09:02 AM
yawn

spence
09-01-2006, 09:11 AM
We don't have a dictatorship...we just have a Vice President who thinks we should.

But even today there are Republicans trying to sue the Administration over Constitutional abuses, and this is as it should be.

The single best thing voters can do this fall is it help establish checks and balances in Congress through Dem leadership.

It doesn't mean you're a pink panty wearing commie, it simply means you're voting against earmarks, last second amendments, congressional un-oversight and on and on.

-spence

Skitterpop
09-01-2006, 09:11 AM
SF


I could`nt read ...too long....maybe later....coffee and :smokin:

RIJIMMY
09-01-2006, 09:15 AM
SF


I could`nt read ...too long....maybe later....coffee and :smokin:


make it a beer and a joint, it will make more sense then :humpty:

MakoMike
09-01-2006, 09:44 AM
Another anti-Bush tirade with little to no basis in fact. I'm too busy to pick apart all the errors and omissions.

spence
09-01-2006, 10:18 AM
Another anti-Bush tirade with little to no basis in fact. I'm too busy to pick apart all the errors and omissions.
But there is some basis in truth.

Instead of comparing Bush to Hitler, which is quite silly...we should be comparing Bush to other presidents.

The authoritarian leadership we have today is perhaps the most un-democratic of this century.

-spence

JoeP
09-01-2006, 10:45 AM
It doesn't mean you're a pink panty wearing commie...
-spence


Spence, you shouldn't refer to yourself like that... :jester: :jester:

stripersnipr
09-01-2006, 11:18 AM
In this case Authoritarian Leadership is simply translated as single party control of Legislative and Executive branches of Government which is not unprecedented and a far cry from Dictatorship. I actually agree with Spence that this Government functions best with a balance between Executive and Legislative branches but depending on the specific balance can render both somewhat powerless.

Swimmer
09-01-2006, 12:19 PM
If that ain't a bunch of hooey.........

spence
09-01-2006, 12:31 PM
In this case Authoritarian Leadership is simply translated as single party control of Legislative and Executive branches of Government which is not unprecedented and a far cry from Dictatorship. I actually agree with Spence that this Government functions best with a balance between Executive and Legislative branches but depending on the specific balance can render both somewhat powerless.
This goes beyond single party control...it's the efforts to limit the democratic process by the GOP that's at the heart of the issue.

Democracy requires compromise to function. With what the GOP control of Congress has done the past 10 years (earmarks, no amendment bills, K Street, emergency sessions, centralization of bill generation etc...) with what the Administration has done in the past 6 (unprecedented secrecy, abuse of signing statements, manipulative legal interpretations etc...) you have a system that's not just in the majority, but that's using this position to rig the entire system permanently.

The Democrats have certainly been guilty of excess and some fraud over the years, but nothing that holds a candle to what the current GOP leadership is doing.

Our democracy is broken.

-spence

"uffah!!"
09-01-2006, 03:52 PM
This goes beyond single party control...it's the efforts to limit the democratic process by the GOP that's at the heart of the issue.

Democracy requires compromise to function. With what the GOP control of Congress has done the past 10 years (earmarks, no amendment bills, K Street, emergency sessions, centralization of bill generation etc...) with what the Administration has done in the past 6 (unprecedented secrecy, abuse of signing statements, manipulative legal interpretations etc...) you have a system that's not just in the majority, but that's using this position to rig the entire system permanently.

The Democrats have certainly been guilty of excess and some fraud over the years, but nothing that holds a candle to what the current GOP leadership is doing.

Our democracy is broken.

-spence

Hey spence, I'm back, and would like you to know that "your full of $hit up to your ears, and the rest is toilet paper". If a Democrat gets elected, and pulls our troops out of Iraq, we will be fighting the terrorists in this country. I hope your prepared to defend this country.

spence
09-01-2006, 04:47 PM
Hey spence, I'm back, and would like you to know that "your full of $hit up to your ears, and the rest is toilet paper". If a Democrat gets elected, and pulls our troops out of Iraq, we will be fighting the terrorists in this country. I hope your prepared to defend this country.
Uffah!!, do you consider GOP talking points to be news?

-spence

stripersnipr
09-01-2006, 05:43 PM
This goes beyond single party control...it's the efforts to limit the democratic process by the GOP that's at the heart of the issue.

Democracy requires compromise to function. With what the GOP control of Congress has done the past 10 years (earmarks, no amendment bills, K Street, emergency sessions, centralization of bill generation etc...) with what the Administration has done in the past 6 (unprecedented secrecy, abuse of signing statements, manipulative legal interpretations etc...) you have a system that's not just in the majority, but that's using this position to rig the entire system permanently.

The Democrats have certainly been guilty of excess and some fraud over the years, but nothing that holds a candle to what the current GOP leadership is doing.

Our democracy is broken.

-spence

Sorry spence but thats crap. Your understatement of Democratic abuses and corruption is as transparent as glass. No better no worse just different.

basswipe
09-01-2006, 06:10 PM
What we really need in this country is a vagtator.

Humus anyone?

Skitterpop
09-01-2006, 06:29 PM
Hey spence, I'm back, and would like you to know that "your full of $hit up to your ears, and the rest is toilet paper". If a Democrat gets elected, and pulls our troops out of Iraq, we will be fighting the terrorists in this country. I hope your prepared to defend this country.


Yeah Spence.... we all know all the terrorists are in Iraq :usd:

Nebe
09-01-2006, 06:30 PM
What we really need in this country is a vagtator.

Humus anyone?


vagtator :usd:

cock shrimptail tastes much better than humus :hihi:

basswipe
09-01-2006, 06:41 PM
cock shrimptail tastes much better than humus :hihi:

:usd: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh well time to go ssaB fishing.

"uffah!!"
09-01-2006, 07:29 PM
Uffah!!, do you consider GOP talking points to be news?

-spence

"ONLY WHEN THEIR BASHING DEMOCRATS"

Squid kids Dad
09-01-2006, 08:13 PM
I agree ..To fr&^%&ing long to read...:smash:

spence
09-01-2006, 11:42 PM
Sorry spence but thats crap. Your understatement of Democratic abuses and corruption is as transparent as glass. No better no worse just different.
Bull%$%$%$%$...

Seriously...you want to put Dan Rostenkowski up against Tom Delay?

Please...put some money on the line...this isn't even open for debate...

-spence

spence
09-01-2006, 11:42 PM
"ONLY WHEN THEIR BASHING DEMOCRATS"
Yes, I thought you farted...

-spence

stripersnipr
09-02-2006, 12:03 AM
Bull%$%$%$%$...

Seriously...you want to put Dan Rostenkowski up against Tom Delay?

Please...put some money on the line...this isn't even open for debate...

-spence

Come on..........What decade of politics do you want to begin dissecting? Why don't you start by excusing this:
- The only president ever impeached on grounds of personal malfeasance
- Most number of convictions and guilty pleas by friends and associates*
- Most number of cabinet officials to come under criminal investigation
- Most number of witnesses to flee country or refuse to testify
- Most number of witnesses to die suddenly
- First president sued for sexual harassment.
- First president accused of rape.
- First first lady to come under criminal investigation
- Largest criminal plea agreement in an illegal campaign contribution case
- First president to establish a legal defense fund.
- First president to be held in contempt of court
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions from abroad

And thats the tip of the iceberg.

spence
09-02-2006, 12:11 AM
And a 60% approval rate!

You're doing too much cut and paste and not enough thinking...

-spence

stripersnipr
09-02-2006, 12:13 AM
And a 60% approval rate!

You're doing too much cut and paste and not enough thinking...

-spence

Wow great rebuttal. I guess that approval rating absolves him of crime.

"uffah!!"
09-02-2006, 06:54 AM
I guess we'll just have to find another ABE LINCOLN!!!!!!!

"uffah!!"
09-02-2006, 07:08 AM
"A 60% approvel rate" is what got us into this mess in the first place.

spence
09-02-2006, 09:24 AM
Wow great rebuttal. I guess that approval rating absolves him of crime.
What crime is he guilty of?

Perhaps you could cut and paste from another righty hate site.

Besides, you do realize Clinton is no longer President don't you?

-spence

Swimmer
09-02-2006, 11:15 AM
Spence has a 60 % approval rating he should run :shocked: !

stripersnipr
09-02-2006, 01:43 PM
"The Democrats have certainly been guilty of excess and some fraud over the years, but nothing that holds a candle to what the current GOP leadership is doing".

As you can see by your quote here above your one that chose to compare the current Administration to previous Democratic activitiies. And those facts are not cut an pasted from a "Righty Hate Site" but rather a Word document I keep that lists in very great detail "some excess and fraud" of a previous adminstration. It comes in handy when people like you need their memories refreshed. I'd be glad to E-Mail the entire Document if you like but its quite large.

"uffah!!"
09-02-2006, 02:25 PM
I do believe,yes, do believe, that spence is CUT & PASTE champ of the world!!!

spence
09-02-2006, 02:56 PM
I do believe,yes, do believe, that spence is CUT & PASTE champ of the world!!!
:confused:

How so?

-spence

spence
09-02-2006, 03:09 PM
As you can see by your quote here above your one that chose to compare the current Administration to previous Democratic activitiies. And those facts are not cut an pasted from a "Righty Hate Site" but rather a Word document I keep that lists in very great detail "some excess and fraud" of a previous adminstration. It comes in handy when people like you need their memories refreshed. I'd be glad to E-Mail the entire Document if you like but its quite large.
It's a nice list...but what's the point? That people were out to sink Clinton? Yes, we all know that...you do know that virtually all the Clinton conspiracy stuff has been exposed as fraud don't you?

I suppose you still think Hillary shot Vince Foster. Whitewater...32 million of US taxpayer dollars spent investigating...turns up nothing!

But you're completely missing the point. This isn't about individual fraud, but rather a more wholesale corruption of our Constitution and democratic process.

But then again, Clinton did get a BJ from a fat intern.

I think your priorities are seriously out of whack.

-spence

Skitterpop
09-02-2006, 03:51 PM
When Clinton was only a possibility the dredging started....



Right wing body of bird left wing.... its takes a whole one to fly.



this division is such a waste and look at us here :scatter:


nibbling at the I am right recognition when the truth is well beyond all of us.

as NIB says eat me :D

stripersnipr
09-02-2006, 04:41 PM
It's a nice list...but what's the point? That people were out to sink Clinton? Yes, we all know that...you do know that virtually all the Clinton conspiracy stuff has been exposed as fraud don't you?

I suppose you still think Hillary shot Vince Foster. Whitewater...32 million of US taxpayer dollars spent investigating...turns up nothing!

But you're completely missing the point. This isn't about individual fraud, but rather a more wholesale corruption of our Constitution and democratic process.

But then again, Clinton did get a BJ from a fat intern.

I think your priorities are seriously out of whack.

-spence

I guess you failed to understand the exent of the corruption. I'd be glad to provide you with some material to bring you up to speed. It's not about a BJ. It invloved hundreds of indicted and or convicted parties. I wouidn't call that individual fraud I'd call it Wholesale corruption of our Constitution and Democratic process. If you want to delve into the details of those indictments and convictions I'd be glad to. It's not me who is missing the point. Your point is maybe there is a little Democratic corruption here and there but nowhere near to the extent of the current GOP administration and I say BS and History proves you wrong. As I said earlier, both parties are guilty and to prove one is worse than the other is impossible, and yes Clintons **** does stink.

MartinD18
09-02-2006, 04:59 PM
Isn't amazing and sad how the blind drones of Dubbyah, when they can't think of anything esle to day sink back into that tired old: yeah...well....ummmmmm.......Clinton! Yeah, that's it! Clinton! Wake up, drones. Clinton has been out of office for 6 years. Oh wait, I have an idea. All us pinky pansy liberals can just go back even further and dredge up Nixon! Yeah, that's it!!! Or Ray-guns (Uhh... I don't remember...) Man, this is going to be fun. Let's all LIVE IN THE PAST!!!!

stripersnipr
09-02-2006, 06:49 PM
Isn't amazing and sad how the blind drones of Dubbyah, when they can't think of anything esle to day sink back into that tired old: yeah...well....ummmmmm.......Clinton! Yeah, that's it! Clinton! Wake up, drones. Clinton has been out of office for 6 years. Oh wait, I have an idea. All us pinky pansy liberals can just go back even further and dredge up Nixon! Yeah, that's it!!! Or Ray-guns (Uhh... I don't remember...) Man, this is going to be fun. Let's all LIVE IN THE PAST!!!!

You might want to focus on the exchange of this post Leftnut. Its Bush administration vs. Democratic Administration corruption and seeing how Clinton was the last (hopefully) I think he would be the likely one to compare to. Get it now? Want to compare Clinton to Nixon? One resigned in disgrace one exists in disgrace.

Skitterpop
09-02-2006, 11:42 PM
You might want to focus on the exchange of this post Leftnut. Its Bush administration vs. Democratic Administration corruption and seeing how Clinton was the last (hopefully) I think he would be the likely one to compare to. Get it now? Want to compare Clinton to Nixon? One resigned in disgrace one exists in disgrace.


Ridiculous....absolutely....The Republicans are totally corrupt on an astronomical level....

Raven
09-03-2006, 06:21 AM
but, :think: he really did inhale tho....
him and TLJ kickin back at the shanty gettin a good buz on...

he'll always be president....
jimmy C my name is jimmy carter http://img103.exs.cx/img103/6541/biggrin.gif

was cool on the UFO information deal...even though he got a presidential bitch slap for it....

bush is the hurricane katrina of the US presidency....and when at last or "until" he gets out of power...the clean-up will finally start....

why hasn't someone made a charley mcarthy wooden bush puppet

spence
09-03-2006, 02:23 PM
I guess you failed to understand the exent of the corruption.
No, I'm quite aware of the anti-Clinton charges.

A lot of it was simply made up, and what's real in the grand scheme of things isn't of all that much concern...or can be handeled within the system.

Please tell me how Clinton sold out the Constitution...please, I can't wait to hear.

Clinton wasn't perfect...but he's also not our President, hasn't been for some time now.

It's a pretty typical Bushbot response though...blame others for all the problems in the world.

Listening to you I'd have to think that if it wasn't for liberals, the media and the Clinton family Bush's domestic and foreign policy would be quite successful!

-spence

stripersnipr
09-03-2006, 02:42 PM
You want to compare Republican corruption to Democratic corruption but Clinton is off limits. How convienent. Are you familiar with Executive Order 13083?

stripersnipr
09-03-2006, 02:44 PM
No, I'm quite aware of the anti-Clinton charges.

A lot of it was simply made up, and what's real in the grand scheme of things isn't of all that much concern...or can be handeled within the system.

Please tell me how Clinton sold out the Constitution...please, I can't wait to hear.

Clinton wasn't perfect...but he's also not our President, hasn't been for some time now.

It's a pretty typical Bushbot response though...blame others for all the problems in the world.

Listening to you I'd have to think that if it wasn't for liberals, the media and the Clinton family Bush's domestic and foreign policy would be quite successful!

-spence

Pretty Typical Liberal response though...blame Bush for all the problems in the world.

spence
09-03-2006, 02:48 PM
Are you familiar with Executive Order 13083?
Wasn't it nullified by Congress?

Checks and balances...the system worked as intended, as I mentioned above.

Next.

-spence

Skitterpop
09-03-2006, 02:51 PM
Pretty Typical Liberal response though...blame Bush for all the problems in the world.


Thats not what he said... Can you name any President in the last 20 years who hasn`t been corrupted?

GW never should have got in.... people voted for Gore....and no I don`t know how that would have played out but I`m sure you`ll tell me. :walk:

stripersnipr
09-03-2006, 02:51 PM
Sure was beautiful thing huh? How about Presidential Decision Directive 25 asserting his authority to assign U.S. troops to serve under foreign commanders?

spence
09-03-2006, 02:54 PM
Pretty Typical Liberal response though...blame Bush for all the problems in the world.
Yep, it's not Bush who's the problem...it's the people who don't agree with his policy that are the problem!

Feel you were manipulated into Iraq, the war without a plan? You're just "morally confused"...silly Otto.

It's sound logic for sure.

Just think if we didn't have the media then everything would be ok.

-spence

stripersnipr
09-03-2006, 02:54 PM
Thats not what he said... Can you name any President in the last 20 years who hasn`t been corrupted?
GW never should have got in.... people voted for Gore....and no I don`t know how that would have played out but I`m sure you`ll tell me. :walk:

Hey Skitter your catching on because thats exactly what I said. If you scroll up a bit you'll find this. "As I said earlier, both parties are guilty and to prove one is worse than the other is impossible, and yes Clintons **** does stink."

spence
09-03-2006, 03:12 PM
Hey Skitter your catching on because thats exactly what I said. If you scroll up a bit you'll find this. "As I said earlier, both parties are guilty and to prove one is worse than the other is impossible, and yes Clintons **** does stink."
Impossible? No, it's not that difficult...

But I guess Bush hasn't been accused of rape either ...so perhaps it's all a wash anyway. :yak:

-spence

stripersnipr
09-03-2006, 03:13 PM
Yep, it's not Bush who's the problem...it's the people who don't agree with his policy that are the problem!

Feel you were manipulated into Iraq, the war without a plan? You're just "morally confused"...silly Otto.

It's sound logic for sure.

Just think if we didn't have the media then everything would be ok.

-spence

Interesting.....I don't remember saying that its the people who don't agree with his policy that are the problem. I don't recall saying if we didn't have the media everything would be okay either. Any other opinions you want to assign to me? Heres something to ponder: Its people who reject absolutely and wholly anything and everything based solely on a blind hated of a particular political party that are the problem.

spence
09-03-2006, 03:20 PM
Its people who reject absolutely and wholly anything and everything based solely on a blind hated of a particular political party that are the problem.
You're describing the GOP right?

-spence

Skitterpop
09-03-2006, 03:21 PM
Interesting.....I don't remember saying that its the people who don't agree with his policy that are the problem. I don't recall saying if we didn't have the media everything would be okay either. Any other opinions you want to assign to me? Heres something to ponder: Its people who reject absolutely and wholly anything and everything based solely on a blind hated of a particular political party that are the problem.


You must have got beat up at lot in grade school :scream: :hihi:

stripersnipr
09-03-2006, 03:22 PM
You're describing the GOP right?

-spence

No. I'm talking about both parties but thanks for proving my point.

stripersnipr
09-03-2006, 03:23 PM
You must have got beat up at lot in grade school :scream: :hihi:
Never once. Lost a few in College Hockey though.

spence
09-03-2006, 03:24 PM
No. I'm talking about both parties but thanks for proving my point.
Hardly...

And I'm deadly serious.

When was the last time you heard anyone blame "conservatisim" for the problems of the GOP?

Put simply...the GOP propaganda machine uses the strawman of Liberalisim to incite rage among it's troops. It's a petty exercise in manipulation and childish name calling.

Opposition to the Bush Administration comes from many fronts and guess what? It's about the policy stupid ;)

-spence

basswipe
09-03-2006, 03:38 PM
I'm tellin ya we need a vagtator.C'mon Ann Coulter is the ticket.She's fairly decent looking and she'll rule with an iron fist.Michelle Malkin as VP would complete it.A male intern can't lose in that admin!:humpty:

stripersnipr
09-03-2006, 03:46 PM
Hardly...

And I'm deadly serious.

When was the last time you heard anyone blame "conservatisim" for the problems of the GOP?

Put simply...the GOP propaganda machine uses the strawman of Liberalisim to incite rage among it's troops. It's a petty exercise in manipulation and childish name calling.

Opposition to the Bush Administration comes from many fronts and guess what? It's about the policy stupid ;)

-spence

Name one President that didn't have opposition from both parties.

Abd dont you love internet tough guys that would run for their lives before they would call someone Stupid to their face?

spence
09-03-2006, 03:49 PM
Abd dont you love internet tough guys that would run for their lives before they would call someone Stupid to their face?
:jester: :jester: :jester:

It's just a freaking aphorism for Christmas sake. You can call back the long-range bombers...

-spence

MartinD18
09-03-2006, 03:56 PM
Well said Spence. One of the saddest parts is the damage done by Bush and his handlers in the court of world opinion may never be undone. But who cares what the rest of the world thinks? They just have the unfortunate fate of living on OUR planet!

stripersnipr
09-03-2006, 03:59 PM
:jester: :jester: :jester:

It's just a freaking aphorism for Christmas sake. You can call back the long-range bombers...

-spence
Ah jeez........wish you'd got back to me earlier I'm afraid it's too late now. :call:

piemma
09-03-2006, 10:11 PM
Spence, I thought you were on vacation in Iowa. I really think you should fish more and pontificate a lot less.

spence
09-04-2006, 09:14 AM
Spence, I thought you were on vacation in Iowa. I really think you should fish more and pontificate a lot less.
Not much fishing in Iowa around these parts...but the wedding was fantastic and most importantly I looked great...

I'll be sure to post some photos soon, I'm sure it's challenging looking at all of #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&'s fish :hee:

Return tonight and plan to get back into gear asap.

-spence