Mind Prep

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What war with Iran would look like

POSTED: 10:46 a.m. EDT, September 17, 2006

(Time.com (http://www.time.com/?cnn=yes)http://i.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/1.3/misc/icon.offsite.gif) -- The first message was routine enough: a "Prepare to Deploy Order" sent through Naval communications channels to a submarine, an Aegis-class cruiser, two minesweepers and two minehunters.
The orders didn't actually command the ships out of port; they just said be ready to move by October 1.
A deployment of minesweepers to the east coast of Iran would seem to suggest that a much discussed, but until now largely theoretical, prospect has become real: that the U.S. may be preparing for war with Iran.
The Bush team, led by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, has done more diplomatic spadework on Iran than on any other project in its 5 1/2 years in office.
For more than 18 months, Rice has kept the administration's hard-line faction at bay while leading a coalition, which includes four other members of the U.N. Security Council, that is trying to force Tehran to halt its nuclear ambitions.
But superpowers don't always get to choose their enemies or the timing of their confrontations. The fact that all sides would risk losing so much in armed conflict doesn't mean they won't stumble into one anyway.
So what would it look like? Interviews with dozens of experts and government officials in Washington, Tehran and elsewhere in the Middle East paint a sobering picture: Military action against Iran's nuclear facilities would have a decent chance of succeeding, but at a staggering cost.
And therein lies the excruciating calculus facing the U.S. and its allies: Is the cost of confronting Iran greater than the dangers of living with a nuclear Iran? And can anything short of war persuade Tehran's fundamentalist regime to give up its dangerous game?
No one is talking about a ground invasion of Iran. Too many U.S. troops are tied down elsewhere to make it possible, and besides, it isn't necessary. If the U.S. goal is simply to stunt Iran's nuclear program, it can be done better and more safely by air.
An attack limited to Iran's nuclear facilities would nonetheless require a massive campaign. Experts say that Iran has between 18 and 30 nuclear-related facilities. The sites are dispersed around the country -- some in the open, some cloaked in the guise of conventional factories, some buried deep underground.
A U.S. strike would have a lasting impression on Iran's rulers. U.S. officials believe that a campaign of several days could set back Iran's nuclear program by two to three years. Hit hard enough, some believe, Iranians might develop second thoughts about their government's designs as a regional nuclear power.
Some U.S. foes of Iran's regime believe that the crisis of legitimacy that the ruling clerics would face in the wake of a U.S. attack could trigger their downfall, though others are convinced it would unite the population with the government in anti-American rage.
Given the chaos that a war might unleash, what options does the world have to avoid it? One approach would be for the U.S. to accept Iran as a nuclear power and learn to live with an Iranian bomb, focusing its efforts on deterrence rather than pre-emption.
The risk is that a nuclear-armed Iran would use its regional primacy to become the dominant foreign power in Iraq, threaten Israel and make it harder for Washington to exert its will in the region. And it could provoke Sunni countries in the region, like Saudi Arabia and Egypt, to start nuclear programs of their own to contain rising Shiite power.
Those equally unappetizing prospects -- war or a new arms race in the Middle East -- explain why the White House is kicking up its efforts to resolve the Iran problem before it gets that far. Washington is doing everything it can to make Iran think twice about its ongoing game of stonewall. Everyone has been careful -- for now -- to stick to Rice's diplomatic emphasis.
"Nobody is considering a military option at this point," says an administration official. "We're trying to prevent a situation in which the president finds himself having to decide between a nuclear-armed Iran or going to war. The best hope of avoiding that dilemma is hard-nosed diplomacy, one that has serious consequences."

the world can't let iran become a nuclear power....period. they would get weapons into terrorists hands and there two targets that come to mind- israel and the usa. irans nuclear program WILL be neutralized, not by diplomacy, but by the sword.

the world can't let iran become a nuclear power....period. they would get weapons into terrorists hands and there two targets that come to mind- israel and the usa. irans nuclear program WILL be neutralized, not by diplomacy, but by the sword.

Yes indeed, the world cannot permit Iran to gain nuclear power. It's a disaster waiting to happpen. Nukes in terrosists hands is not going to be pretty, and we thought 9/11 was shocking?? Just imagine what they would do with nukes :(

I will support ANY action taken to prevent Iran from gaining nuclear power.

You guys ever stop and think a lot of this simply has to do with maintaining the below market price of oil for US consumption?

If Iran is nuclear we will loose much of our ability to influnce the region as we have done for the past century.

I think the notion that Iran will give terrorists a nuke is primarily a scare tactic. Don't think for a second that MAD isn't still alive and kicking.

The real danger would be a localized Sunni/Shia war that could cripple global energy.

-spence

i'm a bottom line thinker- radical islams- like those running iran have an agenda that has nothing to do with global economy. their bottom line is the destruction of israel and the usa, and the spreading of fundimental islam thru the sword- as is stated in their holy book. these people have no fear of consequenses- death? = 72 virgins in paradise. no need to overthink the situation. over and out.

the squeeze play on the persion gulf....to not let any oil out.

chavez is backing their play so our 14% of imported oil from
venezula will be systematically shut off too for any military actions
against Iran.

i'm a bottom line thinker- radical islams- like those running iran have an agenda that has nothing to do with global economy. their bottom line is the destruction of israel and the usa, and the spreading of fundimental islam thru the sword- as is stated in their holy book.
Iran's agenda has everything to do with the global economy. They are waging a political war of rhetoric to manipulate energy markets and reap the short term benefits. Long term they are establishing even deeper economic ties with Russia and China to provide protection in the UN from US led actions.

Only about 20% of Iranians are really considered fundamentalists. Hell, I'd wager that Terahan has better cell coverage than Tiverton!

This is about global politics and the good old grab for economic power and leadership, and we are being outplayed.

-spence

spence- what do you think their bottom line is?

:i'm a bottom line thinker- radical islams- like those running iran have an agenda that has nothing to do with global economy. their bottom line is the destruction of israel and the usa, and the spreading of fundimental islam thru the sword- as is stated in their holy book. these people have no fear of consequenses- death? = 72 virgins in paradise. no need to overthink the situation. over and out.



:kewl:


Spot on.

Iranians are terrorists? Because they're Muslims we label them terrorists? Because they want to have nuclear weapons like India, and Isreal, that makes them terrorists... Iran doesn't produce many bad folks... Andre Agassi is of Iranian decent, and I bet you thought he was Greek eh? There's quite a lot of Iranians playing Professional poker so when we see them on TV do we call them terrorists?

Personally, I think American views of what and who terrorism/terrorist are is getting a bit radical. The wake of 9/11~~~~

Surprisingly she didn't blow up the Space shuttle... :conf: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=2377822&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

Iranians are terrorists? Because they're Muslims we label them terrorists? Because they want to have nuclear weapons like India, and Isreal, that makes them terrorists... Iran doesn't produce many bad folks... Andre Agassi is of Iranian decent, and I bet you thought he was Greek eh? There's quite a lot of Iranians playing Professional poker so when we see them on TV do we call them terrorists?

Personally, I think American views of what and who terrorism/terrorist are is getting a bit radical. The wake of 9/11~~~~

Maybe because Iran is a HUGE supporter of Terrosist groups, and the Iranian president has vowed to wipe Isreal off the map.

Yet you see no reason why Iran should'nt have some nukes? :err:

You guys ever stop and think a lot of this simply has to do with maintaining the below market price of oil for US consumption?



H'mm last time I looked oil was traded on many markets, none of which are government controlled.

Iran's agenda has everything to do with the global economy. They are waging a political war of rhetoric to manipulate energy markets and reap the short term benefits.

-spence


Wait a minute. I thought you guys said George Bush and the GOP manipulated energy markets?

Iranians are terrorists? Because they're Muslims we label them terrorists? Because they want to have nuclear weapons like India, and Isreal, that makes them terrorists... Iran doesn't produce many bad folks... Andre Agassi is of Iranian decent, and I bet you thought he was Greek eh? There's quite a lot of Iranians playing Professional poker so when we see them on TV do we call them terrorists?

Personally, I think American views of what and who terrorism/terrorist are is getting a bit radical. The wake of 9/11~~~~

Now that is just plumb crazy!

Maybe because Iran is a HUGE supporter of Terrosist groups, and the Iranian president has vowed to wipe Isreal off the map.

Yet you see no reason why Iran should'nt have some nukes? :err:

Wait a minute... Do you have information to back up your comment there Skippy? My point is that, if your rivaling neighbors have big guns, then what are you to do? So do you blame Iran for wanting those guns? Isreal can blow up any 1 country in the middle east if it chooses to. And if that happens what defense would its neighboring countries have? (Other than Pakistan) So Iran's developement of its nuclear program is a way to even the score. Iran, remember hates Iraq... I'm sure they somewhat support the "Falling of Saddam" movement. So you can't measure the plan we have for Iran with what we're doing in Iraq.

Now that is just plumb crazy!

Just ignore Stormfish, he thinks Bush carried out 9/11 also. He's just a nut.

Now that is just plumb crazy!
Plumb crazy... But point is that American Society cannot handle trauma well. When Pearl Harbor got bombed, it was a war against Iraq but a war against Asians. Hence, the deportation of Chinese citizens at that time. After the Vietnam war, the same applies... Every Asian citizen was seen as Vietnamese and the enemy. But was it a way against Vietnam or a war against Communism? Today, is it a war against Muslim Arabs or a war against Radical Islam/Terrorism/Jihad/Koran. The reason for what we are fighting for seems to have diluted.
Bottomline, American Society cannot handle traumatic events impose upon itself. I bet Europeans view 'US' as being cry babies.

Wait a minute... Do you have information to back up your comment there Skippy? My point is that, if your rivaling neighbors have big guns, then what are you to do? So do you blame Iran for wanting those guns? Isreal can blow up any 1 country in the middle east if it chooses to. And if that happens what defense would its neighboring countries have? (Other than Pakistan) So Iran's developement of its nuclear program is a way to even the score. Iran, remember hates Iraq... I'm sure they somewhat support the "Falling of Saddam" movement. So you can't measure the plan we have for Iran with what we're doing in Iraq.

The info that Iran supports Terroism, and has stated it wants to wipe Israel off the map is old news. Feel free to educate yourself and look into it, you'll see that its a known fact, and nothing new. You really didnt know this about Iran? Pick up a newspaper and watch the news once in awhile! Iran is bad news my friend. And want them to get nukes!? :conf:

Too much name calling going on here

See above. Knock off the name calling.

Wonderful, friekin wonderful...........

Name calling quote deleted.

You respond because you're always trying to prove that you are somewhat intelligent. I don't bash America... I don't agree with how the Bush Administration is handling the situation. Think Skippy... Why do you think there are terrorism? Do these Muslims just one day hate America and decides to kill people? And are what we are doing going to end or esculate things?

Iranians are terrorists? Because they're Muslims we label them terrorists? Because they want to have nuclear weapons like India, and Isreal, that makes them terrorists... Iran doesn't produce many bad folks... Andre Agassi is of Iranian decent, and I bet you thought he was Greek eh? There's quite a lot of Iranians playing Professional poker so when we see them on TV do we call them terrorists?

Personally, I think American views of what and who terrorism/terrorist are is getting a bit radical. The wake of 9/11~~~~
uhhhh.... they're KNOWN supporters or terrorist organizatioons! they openly call for the destruction of israel. you ever listen to their president? yeeeeoowwww- whatcha smokin' and with whom?

H'mm last time I looked oil was traded on many markets, none of which are government controlled.
But the US has used heavy influence to help keep prices below what the market will bear because our GDP has depended on it.

Now that our manufacturing oil consumption has shifted to China somewhat, you can see why they are building all those aircraft carriers :)

-spence

spence- what do you think their bottom line is?
They feel they're positioned to counter historical Western influence and are exploiting our situation in an effort to bolster their regional position.

I think the accusation of Iran as a sponsor needs to be put in context. Certainly they support Hezbollah, but this is a group that's not even on the EU list of terror organizations.

But beyond that what do we really know?

It's stated as fact that they have a military nuke program (and I'd wager they do) but we really don't have any real evidence that proves this.

You do know that in Afghanistan, pre "Axis of Evil" Iran was actually helping the United States.

The same people who are beating the drum of war with Iran are those that got everything wrong in Iraq. Think about that...

Now I'm not saying Iran isn't a threat, and a nuclear armed Iran wouldn't shift the balance of power in the region. The only thing in all our interests is non-proliferation.

But your "bottom line" statement above just doesn't make any sense to me. It's just a jumble of rhetorical snippits in a broad sweeping generalization. It's precisely this kind of thinking that paints issues as black or white and dwells only on worst case scenarios.

And as such there can be no political reasoning, just bluster and militant positioning, which is exactly what we are doing. Iran knows we have no military solution short of all out war. They are throwing Bush's "cowboy" rhetoric right back in his face to great affect.

-spence

hezbolla IS a terrorist organization. they sucide bomb civilian populace, so no matter what the eu says- that's terrorism in action. bottom lines are what makes the world go round- not puesdo intellectual notions. not promoting war, just a little pre- emptive activity to prevent those clowns from dragging the world deeper into their visions and goals.

They feel they're positioned to counter historical Western influence and are exploiting our situation in an effort to bolster their regional position.

I think the accusation of Iran as a sponsor needs to be put in context. Certainly they support Hezbollah, but this is a group that's not even on the EU list of terror organizations.

But beyond that what do we really know?

It's stated as fact that they have a military nuke program (and I'd wager they do) but we really don't have any real evidence that proves this.

You do know that in Afghanistan, pre "Axis of Evil" Iran was actually helping the United States.

The same people who are beating the drum of war with Iran are those that got everything wrong in Iraq. Think about that...

Now I'm not saying Iran isn't a threat, and a nuclear armed Iran wouldn't shift the balance of power in the region. The only thing in all our interests is non-proliferation.

But your "bottom line" statement above just doesn't make any sense to me. It's just a jumble of rhetorical snippits in a broad sweeping generalization. It's precisely this kind of thinking that paints issues as black or white and dwells only on worst case scenarios.

And as such there can be no political reasoning, just bluster and militant positioning, which is exactly what we are doing. Iran knows we have no military solution short of all out war. They are throwing Bush's "cowboy" rhetoric right back in his face to great affect.

-spence

No military solution short of all out war? What about thirty days of around the clock bombing?

Surprisingly she didn't blow up the Space shuttle... :conf: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=2377822&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

but give her time.....she probably brought mentho's
and will drink a mountain dew shook up
and then blast a cosmonauts eye out
there by grabbing the space station for islam.:hf1:

Look at all you Radical S-Bers` :jester: Crazy as bed bugs :cheers:

Look at all you Radical S-Bers` :jester: Crazy as bed bugs :cheers:

Yes indeed! We hate our terrorists! and those who support terror!

No military solution short of all out war? What about thirty days of around the clock bombing?
I'd wager that would most likely trigger a large regional conflict...or war.

-spence

not promoting war, just a little pre- emptive activity to prevent those clowns from dragging the world deeper into their visions and goals.
You're not looking for "preemptive" action, but rather "preventative" action.

This is the same moral and strategic blunder the Bush Administration made in Iraq...

-spence

I'd wager that would most likely trigger a large regional conflict...or war.

-spence

War as in the one in 1973? Could we have another oil embargo as with OPEC? October 6 is approaching so I guess we'll have to see... Just when gas prices are about to drop we'll probably face another crisis. :wall:

Its such a mess..... do any of have an idea that might solve all this? I don`t think there is a solution.

If we wanted a clean slate worldwide I think it calls for a megameteorite to cleanse the earth of this human bacteria. Koolade anyone?




:ss:

Have a woman as President? Then again, the Christian radicals wouldn't have it...

Its such a mess..... do any of have an idea that might solve all this? I don`t think there is a solution.

If we wanted a clean slate worldwide I think it calls for a megameteorite to cleanse the earth of this human bacteria. Koolade anyone?




:ss:

It aint easy when you have millions of radical Islamists who want all non believers dead.

Look at what happens when the Pope makes some harmless comments about Islam, these people go out and riot, shoot a nun in the back and kill her, call for all Christians to convert or die, and openly call for the Pope to be killed. I'm sorry, but thier is nothing peaceful about Islam, so i have no clue how do deal with the radical Islamists. It's clear they want us all dead, so we can't negotiate with them, that's gonna get us know where fast, what are the options?

They certainly need to be dealt with....

It aint easy when you have millions of radical Islamists who want all non believers dead.

Look at what happens when the Pope makes some harmless comments about Islam, these people go out and riot, shoot a nun in the back and kill her, call for all Christians to convert or die, and openly call for the Pope to be killed. I'm sorry, but thier is nothing peaceful about Islam, so i have no clue how do deal with the radical Islamists. It's clear they want us all dead, so we can't negotiate with them, that's gonna get us know where fast, what are the options?

They certainly need to be dealt with....

Agreed....its us or them.... we have to do something.

Have a woman as President? Then again, the Christian radicals wouldn't have it...


Unfortunately the only woman that could run as a candidate in the near would be Hillary.....and I'd rather cover my Cohones in Peanut Butter and lay down in a rat tank than have her as president.

Agreed....its us or them.... we have to do something.

Stay away from the Middle East and let them kill each other? Radical Islamics Vs. Good Islamics with some Jewish on the side. Then again, why can't we stay away from the middle east?

Unfortunately the only woman that could run as a candidate in the near would be Hillary.....and I'd rather cover my Cohones in Peanut Butter and lay down in a rat tank than have her as president.

Sounds painful...

Unfortunately the only woman that could run as a candidate in the near would be Hillary.....and I'd rather cover my Cohones in Peanut Butter and lay down in a rat tank than have her as president.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c66/ravenob1/hillary.jpg

Stay away from the Middle East and let them kill each other? Radical Islamics Vs. Good Islamics with some Jewish on the side. Then again, why can't we stay away from the middle east?



Puuuhhhllleeeezzeee....... you know better :rollem:

Puuuhhhllleeeezzeee....... you know better :rollem:

We are there to train Iraqi Troops!:wiggle:

But the US has used heavy influence to help keep prices below what the market will bear because our GDP has depended on it.

Now that our manufacturing oil consumption has shifted to China somewhat, you can see why they are building all those aircraft carriers :)

-spence

HUH!?? I thought the GOP and Bush only could lower prices during election years, and the rest of the time they kept them inflated???

Stay away from the Middle East and let them kill each other? Radical Islamics Vs. Good Islamics with some Jewish on the side. Then again, why can't we stay away from the middle east?

On the surface it sounds ok, leave them alone and let them live in a radical Islam society. However, the more radical these people get, the more they will want to attack us yet again. If we leave them alone they will be able to plan and carry out attacks with ease. We need to know what these animals are up to, because if we leave them alone, they will keep planning and attempt to carry out more attacks on the US.

We ignored them for years, and look what happened, 3000 dead Americans.

The root of the problem is Islam, if Islam could somehow become a non radical and a more moderate religion, the world would be a better place. Why the hell is there no big movement towards a more peaceful Islam? Whre are all the good Muslims speaking out and trying to stop and condemn the radical Islamists? if more GOOD muslims would speak up and become more mainstream, we might have a slight chance.

On the surface it sounds ok, leave them alone and let them live in a radical Islam society. However, the more radical these people get, the more they will want to attack us yet again. If we leave them alone they will be able to plan and carry out attacks with ease. We need to know what these animals are up to, because if we leave them alone, they will keep planning and attempt to carry out more attacks on the US.

We ignored them for years, and look what happened, 3000 dead Americans.

The root of the problem is Islam, if Islam could somehow become a non radical and a more moderate religion, the world would be a better place. Why the hell is there no big movement towards a more peaceful Islam? Whre are all the good Muslims speaking out and trying to stop and condemn the radical Islamists? if more GOOD muslims would speak up and become more mainstream, we might have a slight chance.

You have a point there but radical Islam has only been on a rise recently. I think it has something to do with our policies in Iraq. From what is being known, Arab culture has soaked in a lot of western culture before our invasion. Nowadays, their society has tighten up and become 'radical' due to the war. For example, before our invasions women in Iraq where allowed to where western clothing and makeup. Since our invasion, they're all covered in bed sheets.

I believe our presence in the Middle East only provoke 'radical' Islam instead of ridding it. What do you think must be done to rid of the 'Radical' Islamist?

Radical Islam is older than dust.

Radical Islam is older than dust.

Yes older but now more popular than ever!

Will they do the Pope?

You have a point there but radical Islam has only been on a rise recently. I think it has something to do with our policies in Iraq. From what is being known, Arab culture has soaked in a lot of western culture before our invasion. Nowadays, their society has tighten up and become 'radical' due to the war. For example, before our invasions women in Iraq where allowed to where western clothing and makeup. Since our invasion, they're all covered in bed sheets.

I believe our presence in the Middle East only provoke 'radical' Islam instead of ridding it. What do you think must be done to rid of the 'Radical' Islamist?

Radical Islam is nothing new, we just didnt realize how insane they were until the events of 9/11 woke us up.

And just so you know, radical Islam murdered 3000 Americans before we invaded Iraq. So your argument that America in Iraq is the root cause does not stand. They were nuts Loooong before we stepped foot in Iraq.

Radical Islam is older than dust.

Right, radical Islam is nothing new. We just never realized how extensive it was until after the 9/11 attacks. Iraq had nothing to do with them being radicals like some say, they were f'ing nuts thousands of years ago too!

Something needs to be done IN Islam to fix it. It's the religion and how its taught in the Middle East that is causing all the issues. They live and die by Islam. There needs to be a HUGE out cry from moderate Muslims to let the Radicals know they will not tolerate the high jacking of thier religion.

But it won't happen, because i think most moderate Muslims are scared to death to speak out, for fear they might be targeted by the radicals.

I've got the solution!! I heard today that the President of Iran, who is in the US for the big UN conference, declined an invitation to some dinner/get together hosted by the UN because he didnt want to be around the Alcohol that was being served at the function. I guess Muslims are anti booze, so he declined.

So i'm thinking we drop millions of bottles of Bud Light over these radical Islam countries. Maybe the booze will freak them out and force them to commit suicide in the name of Islam!! :zup: :rotfl:

I've got the solution!! I heard today that the President of Iran, who is in the US for the big UN conference, declined an invitation to some dinner/get together hosted by the UN because he didnt want to be around the Alcohol that was being served at the function. I guess Muslims are anti booze, so he declined.

So i'm thinking we drop millions of bottles of Bud Light over these radical Islam countries. Maybe the booze will freak them out and force them to commit suicide in the name of Islam!! :zup: :rotfl:

someday when you have some free time, read Frank Zappa's book. Cant remember the name. Its sort of a life story but he gives his opinion on a lot of things. One thing he talks about is using "pork" grenades against islamic militants. Not a bad idea.

Right, radical Islam is nothing new. We just never realized how extensive it was until after the 9/11 attacks.
Actually Skipper, we encouraged it in the 1980's...history is a bitch I know...

-spence

Actually Skipper, we encouraged it in the 1980's...history is a bitch I know...

-spence

Encouraged it? Wait a minute... 1980's has something to do with Afghanistan, Russia, and communism eh?

Iraq had nothing to do with them being radicals like some say, they were f'ing nuts thousands of years ago too!



Skippy, what I was trying to say is that since Iraq more Muslims are practicing 'radical' Islam. For example, kids are being taught about the Koran and to do the Jihad thing. Where before they were probably taught how to be a good Muslim. Since the invasion of Iraq, we have unified the Arab-Muslim world, and I'm sure the other than Isreal the US aren't the good guys in the Middle East. Hence, in Egypt, the most expensive dates (fruit) are called Bin Ladens. Remember that Saddam wasn't liked by many Arab countries, but now that he's gone they convene to fight to free Iraq from US control. And since we're not willing to leave Iraq because President Bush feels Iraqi troops haven't received adequate training, there will be more practices of radical Islam. Personally these Iraqis must be dumb because we've trained them for a while.

Actually Skipper, we encouraged it in the 1980's...history is a bitch I know...

-spence

That doesn't explain the 1979 Iranian Hostage Crisis too well. Guess the 70's must have been encouraging for them too. Ever think maybe their hatred is driven by their perversion of Islam and its not all Americas fault?

Is islam really a peaceful religion? Anybody here ever read an unbiased version of the teachings?

Skippy, what I was trying to say is that since Iraq more Muslims are practicing 'radical' Islam. For example, kids are being taught about the Koran and to do the Jihad thing. Where before they were probably taught how to be a good Muslim. Since the invasion of Iraq, we have unified the Arab-Muslim world, and I'm sure the other than Isreal the US aren't the good guys in the Middle East. Hence, in Egypt, the most expensive dates (fruit) are called Bin Ladens. Remember that Saddam wasn't liked by many Arab countries, but now that he's gone they convene to fight to free Iraq from US control. And since we're not willing to leave Iraq because President Bush feels Iraqi troops haven't received adequate training, there will be more practices of radical Islam. Personally these Iraqis must be dumb because we've trained them for a while.

Bad news. kids were being taught to do the Jihad thing long before our invasion of Iraq. The "practices of radical Islam" as you call it (We call it Terrorism) have been going on since before Bush was elected. Did you know that? And what Arab couintries are fighting to free Iraq from American control? Do you have any idea how much support Arab nations have provided in the fight against Terrorism?

Bring back the Crusades :nailem:

The Holy Grail is oil.


Mad Max needs some fuel.

Bad news. kids were being taught to do the Jihad thing long before our invasion of Iraq. The "practices of radical Islam" as you call it (We call it Terrorism) have been going on since before Bush was elected. Did you know that? And what Arab couintries are fighting to free Iraq from American control? Do you have any idea how much support Arab nations have provided in the fight against Terrorism?
No but is it safe to say more kids are being taught to do so? I mean kids born into tribal groups as the Taliban, Hezbollah and Hamas are undoubtly being taught the extremity of Radical Islamic teachings. Using examples from history to support my explanation: During the Vietnam war, towns were taught French one day and when the French were ousted, they learned Communism and when they left town they learned Democracy and when the commies came back they learned how to be commies. Things swing back and forth. I believe that since the on going war in Iraq they have no choice but to learn 'Radical' Islam.

There is no doubt that 'Radical' Islam has existed before Iraq, but was it as dominating as today? That's my question!

And what Arab couintries are fighting to free Iraq from American control? Do you have any idea how much support Arab nations have provided in the fight against Terrorism?

Well let me see... There were reports of students from Lebonan/Syria/Saudi Arabia who are filthy rich doing suicide car bombings at checkpoints in Iraq. The war in Iraq aren't predominantly against the radicals originally from Iraq but also radicals or converted radicals from other countries. Bottomline it has become a Jihad convention. I highly doubt there were much if any terrorism in Iraq under Saddam's control. For every Terrorist we kill in Iraq 2 or 3 more are born.

Well let me see... There were reports of students from Lebonan/Syria/Saudi Arabia who are filthy rich doing suicide car bombings at checkpoints in Iraq. The war in Iraq aren't predominantly against the radicals originally from Iraq but also radicals or converted radicals from other countries. Bottomline it has become a Jihad convention. I highly doubt there were much if any terrorism in Iraq under Saddam's control. For every Terrorist we kill in Iraq 2 or 3 more are born.

So using your logic, the United States should never go after Terrorists anywhere in the world, becasue by doing so, we will only create more. Is that your position? If so, then what do you suggest we do about Terrorists world wide? Especially in the Middle East. We have to do something, other wise they will run free and plan new attacks on the US. Doing nothing is not an option.

If we can't go after them, like i assume is your position, then what the hell can we do?? We tried ignoring them for years, and we ended up with 3000 dead Americans. Do you want to ignore them again? And just hope they'll go away??

And you need to understand that Iraq is not the root cause of these radical Islamists being nuts, the Terrorists you're seeing in Iraq, would be fighting and planning attacks even if the US wasnt in Iraq. You do know this right? These guys were not good little Muslims before we went to Iraq! They were freakin radicals Waaaay before we even had plans to Invade Iraq!

every second a baby is now born.

things to consider..is that there are thousands
of americans abroad in foreign countries
and or christians ...like the italian Nun shot
in the back four times....

there are millions of Muslims in the US
and world wild of course
and some of them think
Osama rocks
and some will do his bidding.
the koran is morally corrupt.

the terrorists are already here.

"O Prophet! Rouse the believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding." (Surah 8:65)

"Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks [cut off their heads]; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); But (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others, but those who are slain in the way of Allah [for the cause of Allah]--He will never let their deeds be lost. Soon He will guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden which He has announced for them." (Surah 47:4-6)

Not very peaceful

I personally don't think Iraq is the root of cause for radical Islam before we invaded. The roots would be that Osama guy in Afghanistan who we've been chasing forever! Don't forget that the Clinton Administration has been chasing him for the USS Cole. Got him cornered in Pakistan, but we allowed Pakistan to harbor and refuge the SOB. Why didn't we go get him in Pakistan? And then all of a sudden, coincidentally when Saddam began to sell his oil in Euros instead of Dollars, weapons of mass destruction arised. You guys remember that? That was our trigger in the fire of Iraq. Well now, no weapons of mass destruction but we downed Saddam who got ejected out of court today, and a messed up Iraq goverment and society. Tell me Skip how is Iraq the root of cause when we have Osama in Afghanny, Iran harvesting Plutonium and Hezbollah in Lebanon. What you're saying if we have full control over Iraq all the other problems surrounding Iraq would magically disappear? There's focus elsewhere just not in Iraq who is one of the biggest oil supplier in OPEC.

Recite the Koran over and over because the Jihad part of it is becoming more and more popular amongs Muslim teachings. It was once a last resort in the name or Allah, now that they feel cornered it is their necessity to serve Allah.

Do we leave it alone? I believe we should because we are the problem in the Middle East. Let the people decide if they should take terrorist or the fulfillment route. Let's not anger them anymore and cause chaos, because like Raven annouced, "they're everywhere!" Even Mike Tyson I bet! We did our job and took Saddam out now let's get the F out!

That last post by Stormfish may have set a new record for the most factual errors in a single post! :fishslap:

MakoMike always got something to say because he's a Bush lover! Stick to chartering~

Stormfish: Are you actually saying to leave Terrorists alone to kill innocent Americans whenever they get they urge? I've never actually known anyone to come out and say that. Understanding that Terrorism is real and must be fought does not make a person a "Bush Lover", it only means they have common sense. When Terrorists attacked America many times be it the WTC (Twice) numerous embassy bombings, naval ships etc. etc. WE WERE NOT IN IRAQ. But if we leave Iraq now they wont do it again? How does that make any sense?

That last post by Stormfish may have set a new record for the most factual errors in a single post! :fishslap:
Mike, glad we can agree :cheers:

-spence

i say kill them all if they want to be terrorists for any reason....
right down to the last woman and child.

i don't care if they are white, black, chinese, italian, russian, iraqi, afghani
syrian,iranian,cuban or venezulan.....any nationality... if they want a war they die....period. F___ them all....
i'm over joyed to send them to the promised land.
even their dogs.

and that goes for any American that converts to muslim or any religion and wants to be a terrorist like that california creep
...known as the american taliban...shoot -em all and let allah sort them out....:nailem:

in fact.....shoot him with the biggest gun we have....splat!!

Convert to Islam or die.

Makes those annoying Jehovas Witnesses that come knocking seem not so annoying anymore.

didnt you get the memo? its convert to democracy or die.

didnt you get the memo? its convert to democracy or die.

Yep that Democracy is evil stuff.

so is my humor :hihi:

so is my humor :hihi:


I`ve noticed your humour slowly returning since you got the vessel up and running :hihi: Good for you Nebe.

Holy Crap, this is what I was trying to say all this time...:rolleyes: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8004316/:
If the National Intelligence isn't a creditable source then I give up!

Click on 'Bush declassifies intel report' to view nightly news

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/

WE WERE NOT IN IRAQ. But if we leave Iraq now they wont do it again? How does that make any sense?

Uh Iraq weren't the Terrorists buddy!