There was a hearing about Race Point Beach closure at the Provincelands Visitors center. Did anyone go? (I couldn't make it). If so, what can you tell us about the proceedings?

They have a ACE in the hole.

I was there. It was a dog and pony show. They are mandated by law to have a public forum and period of comment on anything they do. They also have so many hurdles to leap, in the form of varying government agencies, wildlife protection groups and user groups that to do as little as possible while giving the perception that they are actually doing a lot is the real status quo.

The Park Services system of rotating park superintendents and head rangers around the country may work for them but it really doesn't work for us. Having people come in from forest parks and urban parks to run the seashore and thier lack of experience with the complexity of the beach environment hurts the way things are done and certainly thier learning curve time never catches up to the problems at hand and how to really deal effectively with them.

We will get somekind of alternative access but really that accesswill be just a token and the only thing that it will accomplish is that the NPS will be able to say, "look we kept the beach open" ( yeah two tenths of a mile at high head, big deal)

Meanwhile the gay community has done a boffo job of retaining Wood End as thier private beach and south of Longnook, where Plovers don't find any suitable habitat for breeding remains close for no real reason.

Lastly the Advisory group as a whole is dysfunctional with some members ( like P-Towns rep) not showing at all and is so diverse as to be flacid)

100 SCV's in 2/10ths of a mile is a joke, they opened 1/10th on S. Race last summer and if you weren't there before sunup all the beach goers had all the spots. what a nightmare. Bottom line is we will never win or have the rights we once had.

Has any of the surfcasting community ever thought of approaching Cape beach access in a different way? I've had the pleasure of fishing up that way for a few years now - I always wondered if it would be advantageous to ask for more satellite parking areas to access the beach instead of asking for beach driving access. I might be striking a nerve here - but if you think you're losing what you have - might be time to re-think the access issue. What do you think Steve?

DZ

There is enough Beach for everyone, But it seems every year to be less, You pay to drive the beach but Its the Birds or whatever . Soon they will say the Seals. More parking area good idea but more Beach to drive on even better. It's the Beginning of the End , THEY Don't want us on the Beach.......................

There is enough Beach for everyone, But it seems every year to be less, You pay to drive the beach but Its the Birds or whatever . Soon they will say the Seals. More parking area good idea but more Beach to drive on even better. It's the Beginning of the End , THEY Don't want us on the Beach.......................

Bingo.. it ain't about parking, it ain't really about birds, or anything else, but John's last comment, tells it like it really is.

And Flap is right about the NS rotation of their management.. bring in somebody from Central Park in NYC, or someplace in Utah.. WTF they know about the seashore? And what does it matter? They are rotated out by the time they just start to figger it out.

I'm not advocating giving up, bombard them with email, snail mail, phone calls etc., but just know, the true agenda, and that you are probably talking to walls. Could not get out of work yesterday, or I would have been there.

The mbba just dropped some big coin on some top notch enviro/access lawyers, to get into the mix, I hope this goes some place in the right direction.

I couldn't make it either. Funny how in the 60's the Seashore was to preserve the beaches for our enjoyment for all time. Beach access was free. We could drive to Long Point and Wood end without running over "cowboys". Cheese I'm pissed!

I was at the meeting and what I got from it was that they try to use any excuse not to allow anyone into a area. Some of the things said were, we have to do an impact study, the hill is to high for trucks to climb, people will have to drive across a wetted area that is recovering,we have a management plan and we have to protect the birds. Someone did bring up the satelite parking.:bc:

Good attendance for winter, about 150, MBBA, regular folks but also Sierra Club and birders, but most for more access.

Most of the meat of the meeting was on why they could not do someting, versus why they could.

Why nots:

Herring Cove to Wood End was due to a 2005 washthrough that wasn't healed yet, as well as high "beachgoer" traffic. BS on the washthrough as each winter heals everything, as pointed out by someone. I brought up the fact that ORV traffic out there could actually help the Seashore in policing the activities of those out there in the hills (don't know th epolitically correct way of saying it!!!) but they don't want to touch that one. My feeling is great digital shots to newspapers, Congressman, etc of that activity would sure put alot of pressure on them to do something.

Herring Cove toward Race Pt light - possibility, not alot of plover activity but they are adverse to that, I think, because it would reduce available parking $$$$ in that lot - $15/car/day. But that is still on the table for future.

Opening up old access roads off of the telephone pole route - deemed not ecologically right, too much damage to vegetation and habitat for the minimal additional access it would create. Thats BS because they don't know how much access it would create until the birds actualy plant themselves down, if they congregate in one area, then maybe another access route would be good.

Best for last - use old Exit 8/Dune Shack Rd - some critical "wetlands"there (then why do they let Art's Dune Tour use it????), they don't want to upset the Dune Shack residents ( they have fu$%#@ed them enough already, but 2000 seasonal permits versus less than 100 residents??), and as a Ranger "slipped" and said "their ace in the hole was" the route was very hard and dangerous, operationally unsafe", we said what about the other access routes - Race Pt South, Coast Guard etc - they were just as hard and people could access them.

Bottom Line - "when less then 1/2 mile of total beach was open to ORV", they want to get approval to exercise any one of the following three options, just one, not 2, or all 3:
1. open High Head South to Head of the Meadow prior to July 1
2. open High Head north to Exit 8 prior to July 21
3.open Coast Guard beach in Truro for day time use. (needs Truro ok)

Obviously, any of those options could be eliminated if birds are present. Our put was if any of the beach is closed, open up those and other areas, maintain the status quo - if you close a 1/4 mile, open up another 1/4 mile, at least tempoary.

The ORV sub-committee who chaired the meeting are meeting Monday to finalize recommendations to Cape Cod Seashore Advisory Commission, meeting next Friday at Wellfleet Headquarters. Flap is right, sub-committee seems to be in dis-array - Ptown member never goes to meetings, although I am not sure they ever have meetings, and I will follow that one up with the Ptown selectmen.

We shall see, it is pretty fricking frustrating. On the one hand I want to say they are at least looking at some options but on the other hand they are truly rejecting good alternatives - Wood End, more accss off the pole Road, Exit 8 for bulls%$#& reasons, which leads you to believe they don't give a $^^%^$#.

sounds depressing :(

it's like it's a trial or something:bsod:

You know, and I am not advocating this, but wouldn't be funny if everyone just drove on the beach?
What would the rangers do, call out the National Guard because a bunch of fishermen were fishing?

I know it won't work but the reasons you guys posted are the reasons some of us old guard don't fish the Cape anymore. Just to many beach goers, seals, closures and rules and regs and not enough fish. It's a damn shame because we are the ones who kept the beach going for so many years. Our permit money funded the whole thing. Now the "bird" people feel like they are entitled to the whole shoreline and we are the "bad guys". Screw 'um. There's better fishing in RI now anyway. So you walk and jump rocks.

I think I am pretty much done paying to "NOT" go out on the Race fishing! I understand when Flaptail says we need to continue on paying for the permits and making our presence felt.....but the fishing down there is not worth the price of admission nevermind the plovers and the seals and the mung!!! I do think the seals are the reason the fishing is suffering but it is compounded by the other issues I mention and its just not worth the trip there anymore! I got ocean 20 minutes from my house and the fishing is a boatload better than at Race Point! I got out there 2 times this season for $150.00 and not that it was my fault....the dang birds had it closed until the week before Labor Day and when I did try to hoof it out there say from HOM.....there were so many seals it was ridiculous!!! I usually have better fishing on the backside beaches anyway so there is where I will go!:wave:

I think I am pretty much done paying to "NOT" go out on the Race fishing! I understand when Flaptail says we need to continue on paying for the permits and making our presence felt.....but the fishing down there is not worth the price of admission nevermind the plovers and the seals and the mung!!! I do think the seals are the reason the fishing is suffering but it is compounded by the other issues I mention and its just not worth the trip there anymore! I got ocean 20 minutes from my house and the fishing is a boatload better than at Race Point! I got out there 2 times this season for $150.00 and not that it was my fault....the dang birds had it closed until the week before Labor Day and when I did try to hoof it out there say from HOM.....there were so many seals it was ridiculous!!! I usually have better fishing on the backside beaches anyway so there is where I will go!:wave:

This is exactly what the NPS and conserv groups are hoping will happen. That being said and the season being over I can now share some of the intel I was privy to on the bass and their not coming to the beach this year. Everyone bemoaned the lack of bait on the beach this year and last. True enough there wa no bait on the Race point beaches and south. Also true was the number of seals on the beach adding to the woes of fishermen when a small number of bass did show. What 99% of the beach fishermen were not privy to was that from Long Point to Wood End and out around the Race south to Longnook a phenomena took place that I have seen at Monomoy in years past. The sand eels, for reasons only known to God and themselves form up on the surface in a tightly packed group forming a living ribbon that often stretches for miles. Picture a tube if you will not much more than several yards wide for hundreds of yards to a mile or more long. All season from Mid May to October they formed this line from 30 to sometimes 200 feet of water depth along the surface. The charter guys knew it. Especially a few who post here and on the other "flyfishing site" based out of Wellfleet. Look at the pictures posted by #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, see the little yellow/red needlefish. Know where those fish were taken week after week in CC Bay? This behavior is thought to be spawning related, I have no idea. They do it and no one knows why really. The bass were there, just offshore, there was no real lack of bait just that when sandeels display this beahvior the beach goes dry. It is rare they do this for more than a year or two but they have been known to go four years before dispersing back to the sand and surf.

The fishing will back for beach bound casters, maybe this year, but it will be back. Lastly if you really know how to fish the beach you understand that nothing is ever to be taken for granted. I cannot tell you how many nights this past season I sat quietly and watched a lot of trucks hit the beach before dark and by ten or eleven I was all alone. Come the wee hours when the fish would finally show it was me and whoever was with me as far as we could see. And remember that ceratin beaches fish better at certain tides and sometimes for just a short period and if you cannot take the time to figure it out than you will never be successful. And lastly as echoed to me this past Saturday by one of the best coomercial bass fisherman to ever run the Cape sands since Arnold Laine, "there is just so much to know that you will never learn it all in one lifetime." But without being constantly at it you are doomed to failure.

Larry, you know I love you brother but two trips cannot judge a season. The more people who stop getting permits he more the ebach will be closed to our access. Just think how good a season it would have been if we had access to Wood End this year? No real reason for it to be closed. Who will fight for it if we give up?

i for one will keep buying the permit.no matter how bad the fishing is.to those that say there was no bait the last two years they obiviously didn't spend much time on the beach.two years ago there was a steady stream of peanuts along the RP beaches.this year not as many but sand eelwere about 50 yards out.in august there were schools of bass cruising around under the kayak most days, they just wouldn't hit anything.if you don't mind catching bluefish i would say fishing was pretty good. don't think there was a day were i didn't catch at least one but most days it was between 10 and 30.

I'll keep getting the permit. Have met to many good people and new friends to stop. Yeah, the fishing wasn't as good, the seals sucked, and I had to do more walking then years past, but I still managed to find fish on a pretty consistant basis from shore. So what the heck!

If I know me....I will get one anyway because I will feel naked without it!:bgi:

Personally, I don't have the time, energy, or interest to fish there any more for reasons already enumerated(primarily time, though). As far as there being no fish there, that's b.s. That area is highly cyclical with regard to the surf fishing.Someone said 2007 could be the year and I agree. It may not be the year, either. When the surf was bad, we used boats and always found big numbers of fish out there.Why they don't eat the beach is beyond me, but if you keep at the place, you will get your rewards. When? I don't know.
The pressure to close the place down has been constant since the late 70's, its nothing new, either.The antis seem to be winning the war though, unfortunately.The guys who show up at these meetings to preserve our access deserve much credit.They are the primary reason we have any access at all right now, little as it is.I would guess with time the deep pockets will win out.Not sure if a little sticker revenue will change people's minds.I forget the breakdown, but the sticker revenues offset only a portion of the operating expenses. Its cheaper to shut everything down than keep it open, last time I checked. That's what we are up against. 3000? or so permits times $165=$495,000. Don't know the expenses, but they would have to be more than 1 million.Either way the place probably runs at a loss.Someone chime in if you have the actuals and correct me if I'm way off.

Not trying to recreate the mess we had up there a few years ago, but, sticker sales are important, lack of sales to those in charge = lack of interest.
A clear example of this, in my town, this year, they saw a drop in the # of permits for Nauset Beach, and a drop the year prior... they are already factoring running the town without the revenue from the sticker sales, diminishing it to 0 income :eek:, projected out over the next 3-5 fiscal years, and some of the bean counters that run this town, are already saying what a savings it would be to the town to not have it, personel, (pay and bennies etc.) equipment, ( depreciation and maintenence etc.), etc. ... they even talk of it like it would be a Good Thing!.. I am sure the Park Service bean counters would look at a diminished sticker income the same way.
Buying a sticker, while it doesn't have the same bang for the buck it once did, is still a way, of telling those in charge, to Keep It Open!

Not trying to recreate the mess we had up there a few years ago, but, sticker sales are important, lack of sales to those in charge = lack of interest.
A clear example of this, in my town, this year, they saw a drop in the # of permits for Nauset Beach, and a drop the year prior... they are already factoring running the town without the revenue from the sticker sales, diminishing it to 0 income :eek:, projected out over the next 3-5 fiscal years, and some of the bean counters that run this town, are already saying what a savings it would be to the town to not have it, personel, (pay and bennies etc.) equipment, ( depreciation and maintenence etc.), etc. ... they even talk of it like it would be a Good Thing!.. I am sure the Park Service bean counters would look at a diminished sticker income the same way.
Buying a sticker, while it doesn't have the same bang for the buck it once did, is still a way, of telling those in charge, to Keep It Open!

Hey Karl - hypothetically speaking of course, how much would that sticker run and what kind of access would a non-resident such as myself get?

It might be worth a couple :smash: stickers to maintain "interest". Investment sort of...

2006 sticker for non residents was 180 bucks (ouch!)

http://www.town.orleans.ma.us/pdf/departments/parks/orvinfo06.pdf

Access, depending on bird closures, etc., would be from main lot--> south, almost all the way to Chatham inlet, (fenced, but you can park and walk to it).. almost all the front beach, and access to some Pleasant Bay beaches, a little over 8.5 miles usually, from main lot to the last fence. Spring and Fall best for access, and fishing usually. (the only advantage of a Resident sticker in the access north to Nauset Inlet (approx 2.5 miles).. but that usually closes from Memorial Day to July 4th.. sometimes longer)

Unlike The NPS, ya can take a cruise almost anytime during the winter months at Nauset, as they leave it open all year.. nice diversion on a Sunday afternoon in January or February.. (low tides best :eek: :D)

I look at it this way:

Membership in Mass. Audubon : Family $ 50, Protector $ 150, per year
Conservation Law Foundation: Basic Membership $ 30, Century Club- $ 100 per year
Sierra Club: Regular $ 25, Contributing $ 150.

I have been a member of two of these organisations and I don't give a rats arse if anyone is going to bash me about it. They are WRONG on the beach access issue. Open up the whole Seashore to what it was because from what I have heard the whole closure thing has been a government mess up from day one, ie. poor managment ,shortsightedness, and an illegal closure to boot. If access groups had equal education and financial support as the anti groups back then, I am certain everything would NOT have gone down as it has. Now we are fighting back.

Anyway, some years I buy 3 stickers, and some, like last, it is one. Some years I paid for Race Point , Nauset, and Sandy Neck and only saw Sandy Neck, twice, with the wife and kids, in the daytime. I think we have to put our money where it talks. These groups- and they do good work most of the time- have hundreds of thousands of members.We have how many men and women who are here now and will be here should OSV travel become just anyother fad?

Don't get NEGATIVE. It is the National Seashore which has to operated under certain rules. We have a documented legal and historic right to oversand access. All we need is a George Soros and his money on our side and the tune will play differently.

Not trying to recreate the mess we had up there a few years ago, but, sticker sales are important, lack of sales to those in charge = lack of interest.
A clear example of this, in my town, this year, they saw a drop in the # of permits for Nauset Beach, and a drop the year prior... they are already factoring running the town without the revenue from the sticker sales, diminishing it to 0 income :eek:, projected out over the next 3-5 fiscal years, and some of the bean counters that run this town, are already saying what a savings it would be to the town to not have it, personel, (pay and bennies etc.) equipment, ( depreciation and maintenence etc.), etc. ... they even talk of it like it would be a Good Thing!.. I am sure the Park Service bean counters would look at a diminished sticker income the same way.
Buying a sticker, while it doesn't have the same bang for the buck it once did, is still a way, of telling those in charge, to Keep It Open!

One thing you must remember Karl is that if Orleans/Chatham decide to fold on the running of Nauset (what's left) they would by agreement turn it over to actually has the final say on your beach that being the federal government and guess who? The National Park Service as Nauset beach is in fact part of the Cape Cod National Seashore. I have no idea what would happen then but most likely they would somehow keep it open and a. The CCNS ORV sticker would cover Nauset as well and b. the resident only north beach thing would go the way of the dinosoaur as it would be seen as discriminating as the park actually belongs to all US citizens, so your happy hunting ground to Nauset inlet would be open for business to all comers and this would of course be helpfull in the CCNS/NPS fight for control over south beach/south Monomoy. The dune camps might be better protected than they are now as they are actaully on Federal Land would be retained as historical landmarks and grandfathered use. Wow this might be a good thing for non residents to get a waider range of beach for our 150.00 sticker but suck for you townies as your sticker cost would go up and your resi beach would be open for all. Hmmmm...........:wave:

Back Beah, where did you get your info.. last time I checked they were worried they would make money at the Seashore, (which, they cannot, by Law, at best they can break even, being a Federal agency, it is better for them if they run at a deficit.. so they can get more Fed $ the next fiscal year).

Nauset is still turning a "profit" for the town's general fund, even with diminished sticker sales.. the Park Dept. still has to fight the fin-com for their money, even tho, they are the dept. that generates that revenue.

Could it be just that a town runs a beach more effecient than the Fed's do? :huh:
That wouldn't be too hard to believe ;)

Maloney :D.. someone will be hitting you up for a donation to the Legal Fund to offset your other donations ;) :wave:

Steve, I think that the powers that be here are counting on the Pochet washover being the determing factor as when to pull the plug on the south side.. they have already stated that they will keep the north open, forever.. :D

The truly sad part is, the boards in Orleans and Chatham are too busy playing Hatfield and MacKoy to truly come to a workable solution.
Also the board in my town, is truly Clueless, regarding the beach...

No mater what happens I will be buying my stickers this year, The race point light house was closed for over 6 weeks in prime season, this is a loss of about $500.00 a day, they took a huge hit.

I use my permits in the spring and fall, I don't go in the daytime so, and this year most nights I would see no one other truck out there from long nook to race north. In the daylight hours it is bumper to bumper. It seems to me that it is turning into a beach goers SUV place to go. fishing doesn't seem to be the main reason to be there anymore

Steve, I think that the powers that be here are counting on the Pochet washover being the determing factor as when to pull the plug on the south side.. they have already stated that they will keep the north open, forever.. :D

The truly sad part is, the boards in Orleans and Chatham are too busy playing Hatfield and MacKoy to truly come to a workable solution.
Also the board in my town, is truly Clueless, regarding the beach...

That is where the Feds will step in if'n yer two towns don't git to seein I to I. ( The Goosey Goose had a nice holiday spread yesterday)

I remember the day the NSS was dedicated by Bobby Kennedy with Ted Kennedy in tow. I saw them land at the middle school in this old freikin helicopter that was a stones throw from the Visitor Ctr. on route 6. Things changed that day and have been changing ever since to that wonderful area. We used to drive anywhere we wanted to. Start at Coast Guard beach and head north or just drive to Nauset Inlet the other way. My neighbors had a camp on North Beach that we stayed at quite often. Nobody ever, ever bothered you. The last time I went out there was with a guy who worked at a tackle shop in North Eastham in the early 80's and there was actually a police officer running radar, writing tickets, on the inside road. I think at some point the only vehicles out there on the race will be the shuttle buses driven by the park ranger. I think some of us here are lucky that other folks like flaptail have an unabiding interest in keeping open the beaches that he takes the time to learn about the goings on.

Back Beah, where did you get your info.. last time I checked they were worried they would make money at the Seashore, (which, they cannot, by Law, at best they can break even, being a Federal agency, it is better for them if they run at a deficit.. so they can get more Fed $ the next fiscal year). :wave:

Karl,

I'm estimating the sticker income for CCNS stickers based on their cost and # of stickers. As for expenses, I don't know what it costs to run the OSV portion of the park, but would guess it is significantly greater than sticker revenue.Not sure if they break it out that way so anyone could interpret it and make an informed argument pro/con.

The more I read and hear this stuff, the more I love Rhody......

I will buy my sticker next year and every year until they stop selling them. That year, I will be arrested at least once for going out on the beach anyway.

The formation of the Cpae Cod National Seashore was a truly great thing. Think about it, what would it look like on the outer cape if not for the seahores protection?

We just have to make our feelings and wishes known to the CCNS/NPS. Groups like the Sierra Club, Wildlife Defense Fund, Audobon Society ( who's local director made a point of telling everyone how there is new "scientific" evidence that orv use is detrimental to the seashore ecology).

Fieherman historically never ban together as well and as organized as the groups opposed to us and what we enjoy do. That needs to change. Gob bless the MBBA for coughing up the dough and making the commitment to fight this legally. FW would be surely proud.

We need to bring on a younger generation to pick up and carry the banner when we no longer can, a cursory glance through the crowd at the meeting Saturday was depressing. It was like a senior citizen club meeting. This cannot go on. Everyone needs to get involved if they want to see a change. Your money pays for the park, it's employees and funds the wildlife studies and the laws derived from that. The NPS has to be reminded that they work for us and that we. all of us are the rightful owners of the park therefore we should be granted tyhe rights to vote on it's use and regulation. The advisory committee is a good ol boy network. Being appointed by sitting memebers is reprehensible. Membership on that committee should be by popular vote and ballot. With each interest whether scientific, fisherman, orv enthusiast or conservation and law enforcement being put to the public scrutiny and vote. That committee is a sham.

There are corridors closed for no good reason and the public comment in a public forum should not be squandered by reason of time allotment by NPS officials who are there begrudgelingly and don't want to really hear what they will hear. Goverment agencies are funded by the public domain and as such are public servants not above the public in anyway shape or form. They work for us and should work with us, if they don't they should be taken to task to defend thier actions and sent packing if the wrong people are in the wrong place.

Working on figuring out exactlty who are on the committee's Flap, and how one gets on those committee's as well. Fricking disgrace as to the Ptown rep on the ORV committe, found out today she has attended 1 meeting in about 5 years. But that says it, who knew?, and now that we know how does one go about changing it, but working on it.

As far as buying a permit next year or not folks, if we just say %^$# it, then the Seashoe will look at it, say the revenues don't support ORV access, and continue to shut it down. I can piss way $150 real fast, but I think spending it on the permit sends a message, and still does give us access. I sound like a broken record, but e-mails etc to all interested parties, attendance at meetings like last Sat., and support to MBBA and their legal fund will continue to keep the spotlight on this issue. Without voices, the access will truly go away, birds or no birds.

Working on figuring out exactlty who are on the committee's Flap, and how one gets on those committee's as well. Fricking disgrace as to the Ptown rep on the ORV committe, found out today she has attended 1 meeting in about 5 years. But that says it, who knew?, and now that we know how does one go about changing it, but working on it.

As far as buying a permit next year or not folks, if we just say %^$# it, then the Seashoe will look at it, say the revenues don't support ORV access, and continue to shut it down. I can piss way $150 real fast, but I think spending it on the permit sends a message, and still does give us access. I sound like a broken record, but e-mails etc to all interested parties, attendance at meetings like last Sat., and support to MBBA and their legal fund will continue to keep the spotlight on this issue. Without voices, the access will truly go away, birds or no birds.

Fish On,

I understand your point of view. Seeing you are a business owner and this stuff impacts you and your local economy directly, there is no reason not to battle it. What's happened with many of us is that the $150 dollar permit isn't where it ends. Most people travel 2-3 hours to get out there and want some type of certainty upon arrival that they will be able to access the fishing grounds. I used to make a lot of one-two night trips out there, but won't anymore. Lots of people in my position too.People aren't planning vacations around the beach in the same numbers as they were a few years ago. Factor in the gas and other expenses you incur, and its more like 300-400 for a couple days of parking lot fishing and listening to everyone bitch. Not worth it by any means in my mind. I have the canal,gansett, and wesport all within 1 hour of my home if I want to fish. No hassles in those places,either.

You can find out who the committee people are easily.Google the CCNS advisory committee, and you can get the meeting minutes and names of all people involved. I did it yesterday. Can also get the operating budgets and all that stuff if you are interested from the same place.

Your points are all valid ones, the same ones I say to the Seashore and Chambers of Commerce - the people won't come, when they have other options available to them without the hassles. The concern becomes what happens when access at an area such as Race Pt becomes smaller and smaller and then access just disappears. Now everyone goes elsewhere (and granted my Tackle Shop sucks the big kahoona!), and the crowds start to go up in those limited spots. Then another species shows up at another one of those spots, and it starts all over again, and that spot becomes diminished. Or, the enviro's (just the crazed ones) start targeting additional areas - talk to the folks at Hatteras. Before you know it, overall access is almost nothing.

I guess that's why it's really good that the MBBA is looking at this issue with the larger East Coast organizations, looking at the bigger picture.

My put is to keep up the fight, any number of ways. If one wants to buy the sticker to show support, great, if one wants to donate the $150 to MBBA legal fund that's great too, go to meetings, write letters, e-mail, phone calls and so on.

P.S. - thanks for the google advice, I will do that!!

Flaptail and FishonNelsons hit the nail on the head. The number one most important thing that has to be done is to stay involved and go to the meetings. That means you :point: ...MBBA is setting up a legal fund and people absolutely should donate. But the key is that everyone has to participate in some fashion for this to work.

Some guys say "Ahhh the hell with it, I'll fish Rhode Island. Less hassle." You've got to be kidding me, the access in RI is ten times tougher than on the Cape. In RI you make secret deals with people, pay during a specified short time interval for a pass to park on a public street and park at other places wondering if your car will get towed. We lose parking every year and when there is a meeting at a town hall to voice concerns, nobody shows up except for the token few like DZ and now maybe Bob M from RISAA. And those few who show up have trouble just finding out when the meetings are in the first place.

You hear statistics like there are 1,000,000 fisherman who come to MA and 300,000 to RI. Meanwhile nobody shows up when they take away our access, that's sad. :doh: Staying home because you were "too busy", "had something to do", "painted plugs" or "went fishing" hoping that someone else would carry the ball is not good enough if you really care about your fishing.

Once the access is gone it's pretty much gone for good. Show Up at meetings, donate to MBBA, or participate like Fishon suggested, but do something. Together in numbers we can make a difference but we need the participation from all, and there's no excuse for us not to get it.

Ed

Flaptail and FishonNelsons hit the nail on the head. The number one most important thing that has to be done is to stay involved and go to the meetings. That means you :point: ...MBBA is setting up a legal fund and people absolutely should donate. But the key is that everyone has to participate in some fashion for this to work.

Some guys say "Ahhh the hell with it, I'll fish Rhode Island. Less hassle." You've got to be kidding me, the access in RI is ten times tougher than on the Cape. In RI you make secret deals with people, pay during a specified short time interval for a pass to park on a public street and park at other places wondering if your car will get towed. We lose parking every year and when there is a meeting at a town hall to voice concerns, nobody shows up except for the token few like DZ and now maybe Bob M from RISAA. And those few who show up have trouble just finding out when the meetings are in the first place.

You hear statistics like there are 1,000,000 fisherman who come to MA and 300,000 to RI. Meanwhile nobody shows up when they take away our access, that's sad. :doh: Staying home because you were "too busy", "had something to do", "painted plugs" or "went fishing" hoping that someone else would carry the ball is not good enough if you really care about your fishing.

Once the access is gone it's pretty much gone for good. Show Up at meetings, donate to MBBA, or participate like Fishon suggested, but do something. Together in numbers we can make a difference but we need the participation from all, and there's no excuse for us not to get it.

Ed

:claps: :claps: :claps:

Can someone post the email address, mailing addresses,& phone numbers, and the most important points to out line in a letters/email, lets make it easy to get to these people so we can let our presents known.

Well.. as the former Chair of the Legal Fund Replenishment Committee for the MBBA, (this is not a new fund, been one there for years, and moneys have been spent out of it for years, for access, but not at the current level) I'd like to say Thanks to all those that are out there suggesting that folks donate to the fund. The "War Chest" that the club members have built up over the years, is being used to pay the legal tab of the enviro/access Law Firm hired to look into what we can do to keep the MA beaches open.
MBBA is also afiliated with UMS, and numbers (memberships) are key also, the more the better.

It only costs ten dollars for a new membership, so you might want to consider that, if you are thinking of contributing to the MBBA legal fund.
www.mbba.net, there is a form you can download, fill out, enclose that all important check, and mail it in. Membership is open to all, as are donations to the Legal Fund :btu: you don't have to join to donate, but please consider it.

BTW.. gonefishin and myself are in the process of building plugs for access.. we wil donate these plugs to the Legal Fund Replenishment committee, and at the clubs spring meet at Scussett beach there will be a table set up, a 10 dollar donation to the fund will get ya a plug.

Plugs for a cause. Thanks ,again, Karl.

When the price went to $100 I said thats it for me!! And I am glad I did, this is all BS!!
The outer beaches are now owned by the seals and birds!! And they get it for FREE!

I now a boat only guy and fish much better places with out filling there pockets for noting!~!~

I am all for a drive on!! that will get something done!! Have the media there!

They wanted to close the Bass river bridge too fisherman this summer, everyone got toghter and jammed the bridge, the result was that plenty fished there all summer with out trouble.

Lets pick a date and all hit the beach!! Make it a dam parking lot!! The rangers won't even be able to get on to do anything about it!!

MJ, I understand your frustration with it all..However.. The above is just what those that wish, and work hard, to close the beaches, want us all to do, cave, give up, and go away...

Call me Stubborn.. Call me stupid.. but .. Not gonna do it :D

the access in RI is ten times tougher than on the Cape. In RI you make secret deals with people Ed

Good point, can't deny that happens. Overall, though, there is a lot of public access in both Mass. and RI. The entire National Seashore has plenty of access in spite of what is being argued here. It may not be the "easy" access where you drive right up to the water and cast a line, but its all accessible legally if you are serious about it and want to walk a little. The tougher access keeps the crowds out, which can ruin the fishing at times, too.This is true just about anyplace, and to me is a plus in some ways. From purely a fishing point of view, the people who are really serious will always find a way(legal but challenging) to the water.:devil:

Good point, can't deny that happens. Overall, though, there is a lot of public access in both Mass. and RI. The entire National Seashore has plenty of access in spite of what is being argued here. It may not be the "easy" access where you drive right up to the water and cast a line, but its all accessible legally if you are serious about it and want to walk a little. The tougher access keeps the crowds out, which can ruin the fishing at times, too.This is true just about anyplace, and to me is a plus in some ways. From purely a fishing point of view, the people who are really serious will always find a way(legal but challenging) to the water.:devil:

Great point Mike. I bet most guys on this board (except Flap) have never fished the Clay Banks. A long walk from Head of the Meadow but you use to be guarenteed a 30 if you took the hike. I killed myself one than once dragging a fish back over a mile and a half.
Balliston was "hot" in the mid-90s for 20s and 30s. But if you walked a couple of miles you could find 40s and you would be all alone. Once dragged a 42 back took me the better part of an hour.
The problem has become most of the guys want to drive to the spot, get out cast and then drive to the next spot. I think that, because of the birds, those days are over.

Even in th early 90s, when this bird stuff just started, they would close the Back way before the Mission Bell. We walked a mile to the Bell more than once and "tonged" big fish. To old for that crap now but the point is there is still spot to fish even when the beach gets closed.

Now the friggin" seals are another story....

http://www.provincetownbanner.com/article/news_article/_/44230/News/12/14/2006

The NPS is not the big bad guy people seem to think. NPS is bound by the Endangered Species Act, The Migratory Bird Act, The MA Endangered Species Act, and the MA Wetlands Protection Act to name a few. Each of these laws had little opposition when fishing advocates were screaming for public support trying to get them adjusted.

Truth is MA has carried the Northeast Flyway's most amount of birds for over ten years. Over the same ten years, the number of nesting pairs has been above the "recovery goal" in the Piping Plover Recovery Plan. Bottom line is that the people of MA have done all they can while other States on the East coast have not. The Piping Plover Recovery Plan does not allow for "Regional Management" once the "Region" or the "Northeast Flyway" has reached "Recovery numbers" as is the case. To worsen the legal end, Endangered Species Act reform is being taken off the agenda in Congress due the the recent election and the political changes it has brought to DC.

The only place in the legal chain that governs the management of the NPS that DOES NOT REQUIRE a vote in DC is the actual Piping Plover Recovery Plan. This document is written by the Piping Plover Recovery Team that works out of the US Fish & Wildlife Office located in Hadley MA. Headed by Don Fillmnan, outgoing President of MBBA, a strategy has been launched here in MA to negotiate, pressure, and/or take legal action to change the Piping Plover Recovery Plan. The law firm hired is the same firm that has already won a law suit against NPS over the improper designation of Critical Wintering Habitat in the Cape Hatteras National Seashore and is considered to be the best of the best when it comes to challenging the Piping Plover Recovery Plan. This Strategy is being exercised both here in MA and in DC. I am personally involved in the work being done here and in DC and can assure you that both the Recreational Fishing Alliance and The United Mobile Sport Fishermen (UMS) are involved in this strategy.

Meeting attendance and letter/e-mail writing will help but it is not going to be the main way to keep the beaches open. The right people are already involved and the real work happens behind the scenes in a very professional atmosphere.

If you want to really make a difference, the real need is MONEY. We are talking about a strategy that will cost tens of thousands even if there is no law suit.

The Delegates of the United Mobile Sport Fishermen (UMS) have already recognized the far reaching importance of this struggle and donated $2000 just for starters. MSBA will be taking this subject up in the near future.

My challenge is this...We all say that S-B is a club. I agree. Well, then let's act like a club and throw a fundraiser to donate to the MBBA Legal Defense fund for the specific purpose of furthering the strategy that has a shot of working.

If you want tot do something further, call the Cape Cod Chamber of Commerce and tell them how you feel and that you want them involved in funding this action also.

For the record

Captain Patrick Paquette
Executive Director--United Mobile Sportfishermen
National Access Representative--Recreational Fishing Alliance

The really rotten part of this is the plovers Have recovered....here in MA. It's the rest of their nesting habitat that has fallen behind. Patrick is right it's money that rules this contest. Now, my half-arsed thought process has been mulling this: Declare ourselves "Lords (and Ladies) Protectors of the Piping Plover". Swear to protect them with our blood if need be. Join the bird nuts and accuse them of slacking in their duties. Ask them to stand aside, thanks, we'll take it from here. Seriously, I bear no animosity toward the wild life on the Outer Cape. I enjoy to my depths of my soul plugging with those little birds running around my feet. I feel in close contact with this Planet at these times when it's just me and the animals who live there, always have. I'll donate to keep that. Don't know what I'd do without it. Time to stand up, guys. I won't leave the beach with my tail between my legs.

Unfortunately I was unable to make the meeting. I for one travel 4 hours to RP. Have been going there every year since I was 2! Its not just the fishing but a family affair and family tradition. As much as I would love to get up and go whenever I want (birds permitting) I just cant. Fact of the matter is I work for a living as well as having things going on during the weekends so I have to plan my trips around the rest of my life as do most of us. While we always try to make the best of each trip I will say this year has really stunk as far as access during the times I could make it there.. but I will still continue to buy the permit every April for as long as I can. Its the closest thing to a second home that I have. Year after year I sleep in the same campground, see the same folks, shop at the same tackle shops, stores and restaurants that I have grown to love over the years.

The CCNS is a true treasure to all of us and should never be taken for granted. Its beauty is mesmerizing to me, the history of the land intruiging, and its allure neverending.

:(

This last part of that article Karl posted a link to seems like a dig to me.

------------------------

"Speaking in favor of protecting the plovers was Provincetown resident Sandra Larsen, who thanked park officials for their enforcement of the plover protection program.

“Your efforts are an inspiration to the generations to come, teaching the lessons that others have lost sight of in their pursuit of recreation which comes at a cost too high to pay,” she said. “Thank you for taking an unpopular stance and please do not yield to those who cannot see that your demonstration of respect for the existence of the plover exemplifies a most profound respect for the rest of us.” "----------------

OK, I don't think anyone at the meeting or any of us fisherman/4x4 offroad users have lost sight of conserving nature, we speak in favor of protecting plovers also. It's the people who use the supposed endangered plovers to keep vehicles(therefore us)off the beaches. Some people just have too much time on their hands and feel the need to take up some cause just to fight something, maybe they are jealous because we enjoy the beaches, those people need to be reminded that we are very respectful of the sensative beaches and it's wildlife. The issue shouldn't be an us against them kinda thing. It's about access and alternatives for access to work around the federal laws to protect nesting plovers.

I bet she sleeps on down pillows!!!:bgi:

Hypocrite!:sleeps:

This last part of that article Karl posted a link to seems like a dig to me.

------------------------

"Speaking in favor of protecting the plovers was Provincetown resident Sandra Larsen, who thanked park officials for their enforcement of the plover protection program.

“Your efforts are an inspiration to the generations to come, teaching the lessons that others have lost sight of in their pursuit of recreation which comes at a cost too high to pay,” she said. “Thank you for taking an unpopular stance and please do not yield to those who cannot see that your demonstration of respect for the existence of the plover exemplifies a most profound respect for the rest of us.” "----------------

OK, I don't think anyone at the meeting or any of us fisherman/4x4 offroad users have lost sight of conserving nature, we speak in favor of protecting plovers also. It's the people who use the supposed endangered plovers to keep vehicles(therefore us)off the beaches. Some people just have too much time on their hands and feel the need to take up some cause just to fight something, maybe they are jealous because we enjoy the beaches, those people need to be reminded that we are very respectful of the sensative beaches and it's wildlife. The issue shouldn't be an us against them kinda thing. It's about access and alternatives for access to work around the federal laws to protect nesting plovers.

You are absolutely right Bruce, we have be better them and more radical than them in keeping the protection of the plover first and foremost while also being better than them in thinking up alternate ways to access the beach at the same time. I know this can be done and that collectively we can profer a solution to this, they are only human after all and have way less experience on th beach. We have to be able to also offer undeniable evidence that our way is doable and non evasive to the birds mating and fledging. That is the only way your going to beat this, you have to be smarter and be able to prove it.

Flap and others have it correct. To just say that the ESA is wrong will get us nowhere. The current strategy to "adjust" the Piping Plover Recovery Plan to allow CCNS & the two local towns to manage both birds and access was based on just that theory. Federal officials continue to push those working on this issue to go for a section 10 permit which would allow for "take" of a bird and this is not what the "pro access" reps want to happen. Unfortunately, it may come down to that being our only option, however we feel that because the Northeast Flyway has been above the "Recovery Goal" of nesting pairs for over ten years, then we should have some relief in the plan. If the whole coast was at the "Recovery Goal", then the whole plan would trigger an automatic shift from protection to management of the species. It gets worse because the actual data on these birds is turning out to be dead wrong with regard to where they will and will not nest. When the interdunal roat to the lighthouse closed becsuse there were two (I think) nest on it, the long held belief that Plovers would not nest anywhere but between the Dunes and the shoreline was shatterred. The scientists can not admit to the theory that the CCNS is actually becoming overcrwded as far as the Plover Population because this would give ammunition to those that beleive we should move into the management phase on CCNS. I get baffled because I would think the Plover Advocates would want to herald this info and would want to use CCNS as a model for other areas. A declaration of recovery, even in the one state, would give them some clout to force protections in other areas on the coast, however it would trigger management here at CCNS. I for one beleive both Man and Plover can co exist on the beach, but we have a lot of work to prove that and then get a couple of competeing government agencies to agree.

Flap and others have it correct. To just say that the ESA is wrong will get us nowhere. The current strategy to "adjust" the Piping Plover Recovery Plan to allow CCNS & the two local towns to manage both birds and access was based on just that theory. Federal officials continue to push those working on this issue to go for a section 10 permit which would allow for "take" of a bird and this is not what the "pro access" reps want to happen. Unfortunately, it may come down to that being our only option, however we feel that because the Northeast Flyway has been above the "Recovery Goal" of nesting pairs for over ten years, then we should have some relief in the plan. If the whole coast was at the "Recovery Goal", then the whole plan would trigger an automatic shift from protection to management of the species. It gets worse because the actual data on these birds is turning out to be dead wrong with regard to where they will and will not nest. When the interdunal roat to the lighthouse closed becsuse there were two (I think) nest on it, the long held belief that Plovers would not nest anywhere but between the Dunes and the shoreline was shatterred. The scientists can not admit to the theory that the CCNS is actually becoming overcrwded as far as the Plover Population because this would give ammunition to those that beleive we should move into the management phase on CCNS. I get baffled because I would think the Plover Advocates would want to herald this info and would want to use CCNS as a model for other areas. A declaration of recovery, even in the one state, would give them some clout to force protections in other areas on the coast, however it would trigger management here at CCNS. I for one beleive both Man and Plover can co exist on the beach, but we have a lot of work to prove that and then get a couple of competeing government agencies to agree.

I agree and disagree with this statement.
I for one feel that yes, the majority of people, ones who appreciate nature and will look out for the birds can co-exist with them. The problem I forsee, and I imagine the managers is that your average person who uses the beach wouldn't know where to look or even what a plover is.
How can someone who doesn't know what the bird is pick one out of the sand when they are barely visible, and then avoid them?
For me, knowing the area where the birds are and where the nest is, often times I can't see the birds.
I have heard solutions of allowing a "spotter" to walk in front of the car looking for chicks in tracks to allowing rangers to walk in front of vehicles. I don't know but it doesn't seem economically feasable. Plus what good is a spotter if he doesn't know what he is looking for or doesn't care if there is a bird in the way? Then what do you do if there is a bird in the track? run after it and chase it away?

I think it is going to be very difficult for the birds and people to coexist on the beach. I sure hope it is possible, but i think the bigger issue is that not everyone who uses the beach uses it for fishing and many of the peolpe driving on the beaches couldn't give 2 s hits about the birds at all. Unfortunately just like in the cases of losing access due to trash and noise, the actions of few are hurting us as fishermen. in this instance i think that your average beach goer is hurting us more than the fisherman. generally fisherman are conservation minded and fully support the rebuilding of a species, look no furthur than our striped bass. but its the guy from new york city who wants to run his BMW on the beach that is the problem. Can the park service allow "fisherman access only?"
I don't think there is any easy solution, its a national park, how can it be open for a select group and not for others?
Its a shame that we are losing access left and right, nothing beats a nice :ss: on the beach looking for fish. hopefully we won't lose the access that we all seem to be working so hard to maintain.