I received some great tips the last time, so what stays, what goes? Anyone add eyes? Trying to tie about a dozen of each fly. Next up probably the Deceiver.

Tied some sparse, some a little fuller, some long and some short.

That is definatley one of the most productive flies around. Sparse is the only way to tie them. Each layer of bucktail should be slightly longer than the previous. The flash and hurl should be longer than the last layer of bucktail. I always add a very slight amount of angel hair mixed in the wing and jc for eyes. Always fish them at least two at a time. Do yourself a favor and learn to tie a G.P. These to flies fished in combo, dead drifted on a floating line is a killer technique in the estuaries.

Nice.
The original pattern also calls for a silver or pearl body. Also try my most productive light blue. Use a violet body if there are small sand eels around. Plus as Bondorew did tie down the whole wing over the hook point for a sand eel with a few thread wraps. This is personal preferance but since the Ray's fly is a sparse tie I like peacock herl that is very thin. The thicker type seems top heavy.

Another vote for Ray's fly, a true Classic. Similar to the Adams dry fly and Hare's Ear nymph . FishHawk

Nice looking ties! This is not a criticism, use less yellow. The recipe calls for sparse, everyones idea of sparse is different, it only takes a FEW hairs. The original calls for a silver tinsel body and a FEW hairs of sky blue over the yellow followed by olive. I actually saw an article in a mag that stated the fly was tied with white and black bucktail, what an insult to the original! Try some Rays flies with Clouser eyes, this is my 95% go to fly.
Slinger

Allmost forgot, the original was tied sans eyes, but I wouldn`t tie a fly without eyes. For these I use tape eyes to keep the finished fly slim, when I move up in size I go with the domed eyes. Tie in a few sizes too, in the early season the silversides are small, 2 to 3 inches but by the time the FA`s show the silversides dumping out of the breachways are 5 to 6 inches.
Slinger

Thanks for the feedback guys! I really appreciate it. How else will I get better. These ones are probably my most bulky. I have tied some more usuing less material and put eyes on most of them. They seam to look more realistic with the eyes as most baitfish have those pronounced eyes. I will try and get some pics of them. Thanks again.

Some of the sparser ones with eyes. These are on 1/0 hooks. The eyes and apoxy look big but are pretty small.

flies.

Try some with black thread heads too.

man you got them down now!
Slinger

If you crank the thread down harder on the first few wraps, you can splay the bucktail out more, making a deeper body without adding more material. Sparse doesn't necessarily mean slim-bodied.This should add to their translucency.

The Ray's Fly imitates silversides and sand eels. What good is it, if it becomes something it is not meant to be? It is the ultimate thin silhouette fly. In fact there are times when one cannot make it thin enough. It can be at its best after many bass and all there is left is one herl, torn body braid and no more than 20 pieces of bucktail left and it keeps on ticking. That's a fly.

True, its great at imitating thin bait, but if the same scheme also works on deeper-bodied prey with a simple modification, why not? Versatility, grasshoppah, is the key to successful flyfishing!

The black thread sounds like a good idea. Baldwin do you have a picture of what the deeper body would look like. I am going to try Bob Pop's hollow fly which I think gives that same affect.
Thanks Slinger.

Learn to tie some flatwings also, big ones, 6 to 12 inches. Another fly to learn that you will catch a ton of fish on is a G.P.

If you want a deeper profile of a Ray's then tie a Ray's flatwing, on the left.

G.P ? Flatwings are something I want to try. Looking over Ken Abrames site I noticed them. The specials look great. I like the L&L Special. I got a little intimitated by the directions to tie them. Too many steps to get right.

Dont get intimidated, they are really easy to tie once you get the hang of it and well worth the effort. They are big fish catchers make sure to tie the razzle dazzle. A G.P. is a shrimp fly you will aslo find them on Ken's site also on here if you do a search.

I love flatwings, myself. The action on the hackle is much better than alighning the hackle quills vertically, and you get a slower descent, which lets you control the depth you work. Ken Abrames showed me a great tip for tying flatwings without the hackle spinning on the hook shank. Strip some of the fuzz from the butt end of the feather, the stuff you often strip and discard. Wet your fingers with saliva, pick up the fuzz, and wind it onto a section of thread about two inches long, dubbing style. Wrap that along the hook shank just forward of the hook bend, forming a little pillow on the shank. Now, when you place that hackle on, it is supported in place by that pillow, and won't rotate on the shank.

Now, when you place that hackle on, it is supported in place by that pillow, and won't rotate on the shank.

He has step by step directions on his site for that. Good tip and the flies look great. I think my first will be the L&L Flatwing. I just need to sneak down to the fly shop while I am at work now and get tying.

Do you guys have any pics of your flatwing paterns.

I posted a flatwing, it's next to the Ray's Fly. Here's another one. I use this one in deep inlets when the water is stained.

Nice, thank you. I just went down to the fly shop. For the hackles to make these the owner said they go about $35 a package of hackle. So that would make 3 packages, 3 colors, for this one fly? That is expensive to start.

Hold on to your money and purchase your saddles at the fly fishing show from Keough.

Thanks for the tip. Will do.

Bye white split'em in half and die yourself, you will save a ton and get the exact colors you want.

Die with koolaid? What else can be used?

There's a dye brand called RIT, I believe people use it for hackles and bucktail, though I heard it's a pain in the a**. Might be better off buying off the shelf, unless you're looking for a specific hard-to-find color. I never buy natural materials such as bucktail or hackle from catalogs or online. Too much variation, such as hair length, texture, curl, color. Once you find synthetics you like, though, they're consistent enough to buy that way without actually seeing each piece personally.

Die with koolaid? What else can be used?

I use rit, its very simple. Also you can pick up a product called fly dye on e-bay pretty cheap. There is also veniards, more expensive but some nice colors. the only color I wont do is black, very tough to get it deep. Check out fly tyer variant for saddles, he has pictures of the individual saddles so you can see exactly what you are buying. He has the whiting euro/flatwing saddles for 25 a pop. They are awesome very full with very long hackles and a good mix of wide and skinny. Slice the saddle in half lenght wise and die em up thats only 12 bucks a color and you will get tons of flies out of a half saddle:kewl:

Thank you! So how many are going to the show next weekend?

I'll be there thinking 9am or so. Bro I meant to tell you the other day when you called. The thing with the flatwings is yeah they look and fish awesome! But to run out and dump dough on 4 or 5 saddle hackle capes grade one or gold or whatever gets spendy quick figure 50-60 per. Pick up materials a bit at a time some here some there, oh tie up some orange ruthless we're going to need them :kewl:

Show me the light Vic. See you and Scott on Sat.

sure thing, Im meeting him for 7am breakfast then we're heading up to the show.

I'll be there thinking 9am or so. Bro I meant to tell you the other day when you called. The thing with the flatwings is yeah they look and fish awesome! But to run out and dump dough on 4 or 5 saddle hackle capes grade one or gold or whatever gets spendy quick figure 50-60 per. Pick up materials a bit at a time some here some there, oh tie up some orange ruthless we're going to need them :kewl:

For flatwings, check out the lower grades. They may do what you want better then the high grades while costing a lot less.

Lower grades will generally have wider feathers. Often the silver and gold grades (depending on the type of feather) have very thin feather, sometimes too thin for saltwater for most flatwings.

Some of the best flatwing saddles I've ever seen were "pro" grade from Whiting, which is bottom of the barrel. Unfortunately I think they've done away with that grade on some styles of feather.

At the show the profesional tiers really picked apart their hackle to get the best feathers. I learned a lot about how to choose which feather for what type of fly.

Good thing to learn, same goes for bucktail.

Good advice above. Bucktail closer to the base of the tail will be more hollow. It'll flare better when you crank down on the thread, for muddler-style deerhair heads. I like tying those for night, high-riding patterns that push water. That hair also has better buoyancy. The hair towards the tip of the tail is more solid, longer and less buoyant. Don't overlook the hair on the back side (non-white) of the tail. On yellow or olive bucktails, that hair is great for the top (dorsal surface) of the fly.
Check through your hackles the same way. As you become familiar with different patterns, you'll see that not all hackle, as with bucktail, is equal. Each feather will whisper to you it's ideal use. Especially if you spend enough late-nights in the surf.

Each feather will whisper to you it's ideal use. Especially if you spend enough late-nights in the surf.

That's a relief to read. I thought it was just the voices in my head.:conf:

Agree on all the above. Even things as mundane as strung saddles normally have a wide variety of feathers that can be used for many different flies.