Info from a recent RISAA e-mail:

Shops AGAINST the menhaden bill prohibiting purse seining pogies in Narragansett Bay:

Sam's Bait & Tackle (Middletown, RI)
Ocean State Tackle (Providence/Bristol)

Shops that wish to remain NEUTRAL, which in my mind is the same as being AGAINST THE BILL

Breachway Bait & Tackle (Charlestown)
Edward's Bait & Tackle (Newport)
Lucky Bait & Tackle (Warren)
Riverside Marine (Tiverton)

**
So far shops that are FOR the menhaden bill prohibiting purse seining pogies in Narragansett Bay:

The good guys:-
Archie's Bait & Tackle (Riverside, RI)
Continental Bait & Tackle (Cranston, RI)
#^&#^&#^&#^&'s Sport & Hobby (Pawtucket, RI)
Erickson's Bait & Tackle (Warwick, RI)
Marine & Auto Savings (Providence, RI)
Quaker Lane Outfitters (North Kingstown, RI)
Ray's Bait & Tackle (Warwick, RI)
Saltwater Edge (Middletown, RI)
Sandy Bottom Bait & Tackle (Coventry, RI)
Snug Harbor Marina (Wakefield, RI)
Wildwood Outfitters (Wakefield, RI)

To me this makes it clear who cares about the bay and who doesn't. I'll plan my spending accordingly by avoiding those shops that don't support the bill.

Shops that wish to remain NEUTRAL, which in my mind is the same as being AGAINST THE BILL

Riverside Marine (Tiverton)
Gotta be a tough call for some of these guys, I know Riverside sells a lot of fresh bunker when they can get it.

Combine this with a the possibility of an eel ban and you may put some shops under.

-spence

Not to hijack but what's gonna happen to Riverside with the bridge construction?

Not to hijack but what's gonna happen to Riverside with the bridge construction?
I wouldn't think much of anything. He's on the north and the bridge is going to the south. Perhaps when it's time to demo the old bridge?

But the traffic disruption is sure to hurt his business, especially if there's any limitations put on the boat ramp.

-spence

If you really want to do something, call those shops and let them know where you plan on doing business.

Are there any restrictions against gill netting them?

I know Dave at Ocean State,he's a great guy,and cares about fisheries management issues.He also sells a lot of bunker,and he's a small shop,in a competitve market.
I guess it's a tough call for these guys when it comes down to feeding your family.As much as I support the bills passage,I can't trash the guy for being in front of a bullseye.I will however keep doing all I can to ensure its passage.

Gotta be a tough call for some of these guys, I know Riverside sells a lot of fresh bunker when they can get it.

Combine this with a the possibility of an eel ban and you may put some shops under.

-spence

The study pertaining to eel stocks conclude that they were not endangered. These results were published in several newspapers and magazines.

Looks like RISAA is trying to hold the shops hostage to their view - shame on RISAA.

These shops are trying to survive any way they can. They have their reasons not to support the ban and its probably economic. Respect their view.

DZ

I agree with Dennis on the hostage thing, I said the same thing. Them saying this will cost these shops alot of money...

Stuff is driven by the almighty dollar...

But then there is the side that says there won't be any more dollars when the fish are gone too, and with the amount of bitching about these boats and what they do in the bay to these schools of fish...

Would be nice to see a comeback of these fish for the health of the stripers etc. but where do you draw the line?

If these guys care so much about fisheries stuff then why not stop selling them or put a limit on them or something? Seems to me that there's a majority of people who support this stuff? I don't fish bait but there are alot of other ways to fish?

The study pertaining to eel stocks conclude that they were not endangered. These results were published in several newspapers and magazines.

ditto.

where did this info come from?

The study pertaining to eel stocks conclude that they were not endangered. These results were published in several newspapers and magazines.
I understand that, but it doesn't mean there's not potential in the future. It's still a business risk that should be factored in.

-spence

Looks like RISAA is trying to hold the shops hostage to their view - shame on RISAA.
DZ

Since when is publishing information holding someone hostage? People are free to decide for themselves. I applaud RISAA volunteers for getting this information. Shame on those that want this information hidden to protect their own vested interest - in typical Rhode Island fashion.:smash:

Frankly, I think these shops are being short sighted. It's only fresh bunker that won't be available. Frozen will be. More bass available in the bay for longer periods should help these shops. More people fish when there is word of a good bite, not based on the bait available in the shops.

I wonder what some of these shops did before Ark Bait started raping the bay of all the pogies?

The shops will improvise and sell other types of bait.

Thanks for posting Roger. People can use the information and decide for themselves.

Looks like RISAA is trying to hold the shops hostage to their view - shame on RISAA.

These shops are trying to survive any way they can. They have their reasons not to support the ban and its probably economic. Respect their view.

DZ

A man of reason as usual. Hats off to you Dennis for common sense.:claps:

I still don't understand why everyone thinks that the shops won't be able to get fresh pogies. The shop I work at consistently has fresh pogies that do not come from ark bait or anyother big time operation. They come from single man operations. Its not hard for someone to get bait, and if the shop is willing to pay a little more per fish they will get pogies.

[QUOTE=Roger;467658]Since when is publishing information holding someone hostage? People are free to decide for themselves. I applaud RISAA volunteers for getting this information. Shame on those that want this information hidden to protect their own vested interest - in typical Rhode Island fashion.:smash:

Frankly, I think these shops are being short sighted. :claps:

I disagree, bait shops make most of there profits from bait. Big ticket items such as rods and reels have a very small mark up. Look at it from their point of view. And to say that these tackle shops are "Against Us" is ridiculous. Sounds more like you are after the bait shops then attempting to get the bill passed.

we need the pogies just to clean up the bay, never mind bait. i used to own a bait shop and i could get all the pogies i wanted from the 1man boats. they were no where my top 3 sellers as far as bait was concerned. eels, worms, then crabs. we have let the bay become a sewer. ther is no eelgrass left. 40 years ago, i go fishing in any of the upper bay hot spots and it would be loaded with grass. no more. let the pogies do the work that we should be doing. namely, filtering the bay water. just my 2 cents.

Nothing's as simple as "You're either with us, or against us."
You start dealing in absolutes and you're on your way to extremism.

slow_eddie,

You're so right about keeping the bay clean. IMHO the bait shops will not suffer if Ark Bait is kept out of the bay or is significantly restricted...nature abhors a vacuum and guys with gill nets would spring up like mushrooms in the rain. We would probably see just as much fresh bait available, and perhaps in better condition.

Fish-eye and eddie.
One thing that gets NO MENTION is this.

First off, I'm a geologist not a biologist so this is my SWAG (scientific wild-ass guess)

The claim is that 1million pogies will filter out 31Million lbs of crap (or somewhat there about)

That is the GROSS uptake of pogies. What gets no mention is the NET benefit. My sense is that any benefit is much much smaller, maybe 10% of that 31Million pounds.... remember.. Pogies eat but Pogies SH_T too!

I think any gain, while important will probably be much less than the benefits the CSO tunnel will provide, OR if all the coastal homes on Septic in the bay are put on Sewer and treated.

I supported the bill by emailing the reps, but I am skeptical of what if any science went into this claim.

As far as the bait shops... They are entitled to their opinion. I disagree at times, and these get voiced at Advisory panel meetings or RIMFC meetings, and not patronizing them because of this isnt a great thing IMHO...

Some shops DO well w/o bait, a la SWE, but for most shops it is a very important item to have bait to sell, be it eels, pogies, squid, whatever

I hope I'm not out of my area here, but as a bait seller and in many cases harvester, I can't see any problem with limiting purse seining menhaden anywhere. True in my area of NJ, pogies aren't a preferred bait but in Delaware Bay and Raritan Bay they are the standard fare.

Unforutnately in those two big bays purse seining for bait is still permitted which from my understanding at least in the Raritan Bay tends to push remaining pogies north to NY along with the bass.

No mater how many sportfishermen you have those pogies are for lobster and crab bait for the most part. I don't know exactly what other gear types are permitted in Narragansett Bay, but if you take the big purse seine operations out of the equasion gill nets and cast nets can easily supply any striper bait and probably any local commercial baits you need at a higher quality.

All I know is that the more menhaden you send south the fatter the bass will be when they get here.

Cast netted bait is going to be of much better quality than purse seined fish. I would think that with the elimination of the seiners, a small fishery would sprout up - selective, small scale targeting of pogies to supply the bait shops. This might even provide some $ for smaller commercial fisherman, and keep the bait shops in business (minus the wholesale elimination that the seiners cause).
Although the price might be a bit higher than the seined fish, the increase will hopefully be passed on to the consumer, keeping the shops margins the same.

RI is where Jersey was just 3-5 years ago...Fighting to get the out of state Party boats out. What happened, the bunker reduction boats were booted, and the NJ coast heas been getting some of the best fishing in the spring EVER experienced. Guys that have been fishing 20, 30, 40 years have never seen some of the runs that we have been having. thats both boat and beach. Shame on the Tackle shop owners who won't stand up because they are afraid they wont have a bait supply, or because they are worried that people will be able to get their own bait. That is the Fact. Funny thing is, most people werent even using bait of the surf and there were many, 30, 40, and 50lb bass caught on plugs. Googans were bangin' 30's and 40's. Many of these fish don't even make it up North, They stay with the bait...Question...Why do you think the fishing is spiraling downward every year from the cape to Watch Hill???

Just my Humble opinion

I would be interesting to see what would happen north(or east or whatever upstream) of the bay if more bait could make it past the purse seiners in RI...

Davey Who??

It will take more than just these Menhaden to Help the Bass..........You are Right DZ...............

So keep adding to the problem and keep killing millions of pounds of menhaden for lobster bait and keep catching anorexic bass grubbing grubbing for food....

Looks like RISAA is trying to hold the shops hostage to their view - shame on RISAA.
DZ

This statement is completely false. The following is text from a post Steve Medeiros made today on SNESA responding to someone who suggested a boycott of shops that oppose the ban:


Let start a Boycott. I just sent a Email to Dave at Ocean State Tackle.
> Email address are ( Found on Web Page)
>

Suggest we slow down, Ed.

True, this is an important issue, but is it worth fracturing the recreational
fishing community? Is it worth hard feelings with our friends? Is it worth
hurting local bait shops?

I don't think so.

In a few months, this menhaden deal will be behind us. We may win, or we may
lose, but by summer I'll wager that everyone here will be talking about fishing
and other topics.

Let's NOT leave a trail of hurt, bitterness and broken friendships behind.

Thank the bait shops that have supported this issue.

Save the email campaign for our state legislators when this bill comes forward.
There will be plenty of work to do very soon.

Steve

There are 7 bait shops in the Canal area that sell fresh pogies. 6 use one of two small time cast netters (Stanley and Pogie Mike). One gets theirs from large scale netters.

The difference in quality is amazing. The stuff caught by trawlers turns to mush in no time at all, reagrdless of how carefully you keep it.

This statement is completely false. The following is text from a post Steve Medeiros made today on SNESA responding to someone who suggested a boycott of shops that oppose the ban:


Let start a Boycott. I just sent a Email to Dave at Ocean State Tackle.
> Email address are ( Found on Web Page)
>

Suggest we slow down, Ed.

True, this is an important issue, but is it worth fracturing the recreational
fishing community? Is it worth hard feelings with our friends? Is it worth
hurting local bait shops?

I don't think so.

In a few months, this menhaden deal will be behind us. We may win, or we may
lose, but by summer I'll wager that everyone here will be talking about fishing
and other topics.

Let's NOT leave a trail of hurt, bitterness and broken friendships behind.

Thank the bait shops that have supported this issue.

Save the email campaign for our state legislators when this bill comes forward.
There will be plenty of work to do very soon.

Steve

Robert,
Glad you posted that response but the damage may have already started.
Owners of two of the bait shops are very good friends of mine - they had done a lot for RISAA, donating raffle prizes, bait and prizes for youth fishing clinics, etc. To get "Black Listed" on an email or web site is absolutely wrong. RISAA needs to apologize to all the shops involved.

I know there are many ways to get pogies and the shops I'm sure will find a way. But these other sources may not be as convenient. Shop owners spend a lot of time running their business never mind trying to track down fresh bait for their customers. Lot's of time and time is money.

I don't want to get bogged down in the pros and cons of the proposed legislation on this thread but if any one want's some constructive dialog on the issue start a new thread and I'll chime in.

DZ

So how would catyching them via cast or gill nets affect the population of pogies. We have so few B&T shops now, we need to protect the ones we do have. RISAA is cutting its own throat if its a my way or the highway type of deal. I'm sure the guys that either don't support the bill or want to remain neutral have valid reasons for their position. Boycotting tackle shops is like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

RISAA is cutting its own throat if its a my way or the highway type of deal. I'm sure the guys that either don't support the bill or want to remain neutral have valid reasons for their position. Boycotting tackle shops is like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Mako Mike...The statement Steve Medeiros made that I posted says exactly what you are saying. Again, no officer of RISAA has ever suggested that any bait shop be boycotted. Whoever suggested that may have been a RISAA member, but they were not speaking on behalf of the organization.

I think some of the people on the RISAA list are doing just what a lot of people do (us included) on an issue and jump in with two feet all fast and furious. I personally support the legislation without question but I'm not quite ready to pigeon-hole those shops in question because of their stance against or neutral on this position.

I have had good conversations with shop owners, that for this argument will remain nameless, that would forgo ALL pogies for a few years if that would really help the fish stocks (slightly different issue granted, fish stocks -v- Bay health).

I would encourage those shops to reconsider their support, certainly if the issue is short term profit & ease. But harsh fighting amongst "ourselves" as a usergroup would be handing a defeat to this legislation.

Someone wants to vote with their wallet, nothing wrong with that. But don't divide "us" on the premise of this matter.

Ooops - water's burning, soapbox off

Many tackle shops that I know of up and down the coast get there pogies from 1 man pogie cast net operations just like mike p said. Many pride themselves in fresh bait, and sure they have the frozen stuff. But most of the people that I know of want fresh. Why anybody would by the stuff that comes off these big boats is beyond me, its all mush. The bait is all bruised, soft, and not iced properly. Anybody would cast it right off the hook.....Worthless. Its lobster bait. Now how the hell would somebody like a single cast netter put a dent into the pogies? I dont think any of you Rhode Islanders have an idea what the bay would look like without those boats taking millions of pounds. I'm gonna make a video this year of the pogies here in the spring. Ive had clients that fished up in Mass for years come up and they are in awe. truly amazing, bait and fish. Guys arent just catching big bass but these guys are catching 14, 15, 16, 17lb weakfish on whole live pogies. Agian, Some of you are where we in NJ / NY were a few years ago. The fishing down right sucked here! Ive seen acres of dead bass floating up top, getting washed on beaches from the reduction boats. after the first year of them out of here, there was a huge difference....Enough of my rambling, what the hell do I know...Im done with this topic.....

Robert,
Glad you posted that response but the damage may have already started.
Owners of two of the bait shops are very good friends of mine - they had done a lot for RISAA, donating raffle prizes, bait and prizes for youth fishing clinics, etc. To get "Black Listed" on an email or web site is absolutely wrong. RISAA needs to apologize to all the shops involved.

I know there are many ways to get pogies and the shops I'm sure will find a way. But these other sources may not be as convenient. Shop owners spend a lot of time running their business never mind trying to track down fresh bait for their customers. Lot's of time and time is money.

I don't want to get bogged down in the pros and cons of the proposed legislation on this thread but if any one want's some constructive dialog on the issue start a new thread and I'll chime in.

DZ

Dennis, 99% of bait shops get there frozen slushpuppies (Menhaden) from REGAL BAIT CO- IN NEW JERSEY, So the bait shops are not starving by any means.

Cowhunter is right, you want to keep catching long lean starving bass go ahead and support Ark bait...Its funny your such a Champion for the Striped bass but you dont want to have the same enthusiasm for saving there food source? Without the food there wont be any of your beloved "Cows" or "Bulls" to toss back..

RISAA In no way at all called for any type of boycott whatsoever....It was a few hotheads who sent emails saying that...I am on that email list and read all the emails, Its just like what goes on here as John Said.

As far as it hurting a buisness, I would think our bay and its health and the health of the striped bass would be more important than not being able to sell some chunk bait...There are lots of buisness people who take hits everyday and for far less important things than the overall well being of the bay...

As for what certain bait shops have done for RISAA...By donating whatever...what does that have to do with anything? we should let our menhaden stocks be depleated because some stuff was donated for a raffle? I think the submision of this bill was about far more than that ..

I dont look at this as a personall attack at all on anyone, this is for the betterment of our Bay ! I have nothing against Ark Bait personally, in fact I have no problem getting bait from them, they always give it out freely, but lets not kid ourselves into thinking the fishing and the bay will improve 100 fold if they are kept out or even restricted more. This is going to end up a compromise in my and from what I hear it will be a win...win for everyone.

Billy,
Like I said previously i'd rather not get into the bill on this thread.
Start a new thread and I'll tell you how I personally feel about the issue.

This thread is about the Black Listing of shops: I'm not privy to the RISAA email list. But that black list had to originate somewhere. Someone at RISAA compiled it. It shouldn't have been done in my opinion.
Thanks for your thoughts.

DZ

Cowhunter I don't think anyone is arguing that the bill isn't a good thing. I fully back the bill but to come out and say that these shops are "against us" is wrong.

Billy,
Like I said previously i'd rather not get into the bill on this thread.
Start a new thread and I'll tell you how I personally feel about the issue.

This thread is about the Black Listing of shops: I'm not privy to the RISAA email list. But that black list had to originate somewhere. Someone at RISAA compiled it. It shouldn't have been done in my opinion.
Thanks for your thoughts.

DZ

Understood dennis, I can assure you that no blacklisting was done in the email group..There were a few emails saying that they it should be done but they were quickly shot down.A couple bad apples ,its unfortunate but people have opinions..Anyway, never did I see any RISAA board member say blacklisting was apropriate..

The only thing that was compiled was a list of who is for the bill .

I don't think whether the bait shops support or don't support the bill will have a substantive effect on the success or failure of the bill. THERE!!!

I don't think whether the bait shops support or don't support the bill will have a substantive effect on the success or failure of the bill. THERE!!!
I think it could have some impact. If I was presenting against the bill I'd certainly make an emotional plea of the small business impact that passage could have.

If the majority of shops support the bill it blows this out of the water...

-spence

I'm not privy to the RISAA email list. But that black list had to originate somewhere. Someone at RISAA compiled it. It shouldn't have been done in my opinion.
DZ

First -it was published on the SNESA list which is available for anyone to receive by signing up through the RISAA site. No secrets there.

Second: RISAA did compile the list of supporters and non-supporters, but it was done to research the claims made by Ark Bait's letter to the RI legislators that said RI Baitshops were against the menhaden bill. It also said that lobstermen would be hurt and stated that Ark Bait is a Rhode Island company. These points have been proven wrong or significantly misleading due to the diligent work done by RISAA volunteers.

The same hard working people that you are quick to put down - repeatedly, while admitting that you don't have any facts - that's shameful.

These are people motivated by what's best for the bay, so they work hard to get information that will let folks be knowledgable. IMO that's a good thing.

OTOH, your way - keeping information secret which leads to double dealing, back room shenanigans with cronies - represents the worst of the RI political system, and I'm against it.

So I'll continue to follow my conscience by not supporting shops that IMO don't support the health of the bay.

Its fine that you don't support the shops but to make a post on a very public forum that points the finger at certain business and portrays them as being the bad guy is NOT a good thing. I agree 100% that the bill should be passed but there has to be better ways than this. You have to look at it from their point of view. I can see where they might be coming from. Losing fresh bait would be a huge loss for many shops. But they must realize that they will be able to get bait from different sources.

Its fine that you don't support the shops but to make a post on a very public forum that points the finger at certain business and portrays them as being the bad guy is NOT a good thing. I agree 100% that the bill should be passed but there has to be better ways than this. You have to look at it from their point of view. I can see where they might be coming from. Losing fresh bait would be a huge loss for many shops. But they must realize that they will be able to get bait from different sources.

I think that is one of the problems, those "other sources" don't exist as of the moment. Lots of talk about gillnetters and castnetter filling the damand of the bait shops, but no one really knows for sure yet that it will happen. Not many people have gillnet licenses in the state.

1. I see no problem w/publishing who is for or against the ban. If you are a shop owner and take a stand (in either direction) please have the conviction to stand behind it and deal with the repurcusions.

2. If this WAS a blacklist, which I don't think it was, THIS is not the place for it.

3. I don't give a flying f'all where bait shops will be getting there bait from IF Ark is kicked out. It is absolutely assinign(sp), to make a decision the ultimately effects the health of the bay based on the economics of a bait/tackle shop. Although I do realize $$$ talks.

4. If a void opens up regarding getting bait it will be filled. If there is $$$ in it I gaurentee someone will exploit it.

5. I'm sorry, I have no sympathy for commecial fishermen (most). I work w/ a reformed commercial dragger. The stories he tells make me ashamed to be a human being. I really have no reason the believe others are much different. Again, I am sure there are exceptions.

That was my point essentially, Mako Mike, these shops that are supposedly the bad guys are worried that they won't get bait but if the pogies were as thick as I have heard it shouldnt be too hard for anyone that is skilled with a thrownet to do a number on them. Like others have said basically the whole cape cod canal area tackle shops are supplied by two seperate one man operations. Both of these guys weapons of choice is the thrownet so it can and will be done.