:(

Sad

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070416/D8OHQA5O0.html

They had them in lockdown, lifted the lockdown and he started shooting again.

unbelievable

I had just heard 17 shot w/ only 2 killed.

Sad!

in VA it is not against the law to carry concealed on a college campus, except for VCU (a one-off exception). open carry is legal almost everywhere.

if there was just ONE armed citizen on campus - who knows if the outcome would have been different.

words which will forever live in infamy:

A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.

House Bill 1572 didn't get through the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. It died Monday in the subcommittee stage, the first of several hurdles bills must overcome before becoming laws.

The bill was proposed by Del. Todd Gilbert, R-Shenandoah County, on behalf of the Virginia Citizens Defense League. Gilbert was unavailable Monday and spokesman Gary Frink would not comment on the bill's defeat other than to say the issue was dead for this General Assembly session.

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

Del. Dave Nutter, R-Christiansburg, would not comment Monday because he was not part of the subcommittee that discussed the bill.

Most universities in Virginia require students and employees, other than police, to check their guns with police or campus security upon entering campus. The legislation was designed to prohibit public universities from making "rules or regulations limiting or abridging the ability of a student who possesses a valid concealed handgun permit ... from lawfully carrying a concealed handgun."

The legislation allowed for exceptions for participants in athletic events, storage of guns in residence halls and military training programs.

Last spring a Virginia Tech student was disciplined for bringing a handgun to class, despite having a concealed handgun permit. Some gun owners questioned the university's authority, while the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police came out against the presence of guns on campus.

In June, Tech's governing board approved a violence prevention policy reiterating its ban on students or employees carrying guns and prohibiting visitors from bringing them into campus facilities.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-50658

OMG that is horrible, god bless the victims families.
How much more f'd is going to get.

Another A$$HOLE with a deathwish that didn't have the balls to kill himself . Figures kill a few students and let the police kill me. F%%KIN
COWARD

What can you say......such a shame! What the hell is wrong with these kinds of people????:doh:

news is saying that the shooter did kill himself.

abc news is reporting 32 killed and many more coming.

:(

Why can't they just take themselves out?!?!?!? Why do they always have to take alot of innocent, vibrant lives with them?!?!?!?

...but HOW could something like this ever happen?

The university BANNED GUNS on campus. :rolleyes:

news is saying that the shooter did kill himself.Thanks for the correction

the metal detector searches ? :huh:

such a waste of innocent lives...

and nobody saw this coming.???

gun-free zones = gun-free victim zones.

law enforcement may have dropped the ball on this one (to some extent).

two unusual bomb threats made in the last two days (targeted at the engineering building). and nobody puts 2+2 together.

the new police response doctrine is to rush in and take out the school shooter as soon as possible rather than the old way of securing the scene and calling in a negotiator (this changed after columbine).

so the cops secured the dorm but reportedly lost track of the shooter FOR TWO HOURS ... the shooter then moved on to commit more mayhem today.

i fear this will play out to be a tragic comedy of errors ...

32 dead
29 wounded

A very very SAD day in America.
I know several kids who go their and I hope for the best, for them and all the families.
VB

This tragedy is beyond words. This is a sad day for this country that will go down in history.
Dont wanna get into a gun debate, but as stated above since the schools are now 100%gun free zones, im sure even the security guards were unable to help in any way whatsoever,which means MANY victims with no way to defend themselves. If even one teacher was carrying, this would have ended with less lives lost, but I guess we trust noone with guns, and this sicko made the most of it.

If he wanted to kill people so badly, I'm sure the Army would have been more than happy to put this maniac to work.....

The only reason I can see for someone like that to take out so many innocent lives is to become a marter.... nothing else makes sense.

truely a sad, sad day....

it's too soon to tell what's motivated this guy, but nobody's ruling out sudden jihad syndrome.

i'd put my money on a stressed out college kid who just snapped. a girlfriend or ex-girlfriend was mentioned.

back scatter comes to mind....

what a sickening event.... :hs:

So many families with tradgedy...as if the conflict
in Iraq isn't enough ....:confused:

how the assailants turn harming oneself into
harming everyone they can to deliver their hatred
or dissatisfaction will be the riddle to solve.

too much to comprehend.......
sad day in deed......
God save us from ourselves........

Rest in peace. Best wishes to their families.

It would have been great if someone else had a gun, but unfortunately it didn't work out that way. How could it with the miniscule level of legal concealed carry? Maybe the police made a mistake, maybe not. I'm sure they don't get a lot of practice with that type of thing down there. They'll be loosing a lot of sleep trying to think of what they could have done differently.

At least the shooter is dead. No silly trial & life sentence.

The news is already having a field day with this - "How could this have been prevented?" Unreal. They're just cashing in.

'nuff said.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f15/30calslut/vtech9523.jpg

if anyone is in to grim statistics, here is the worst mass school killing in u.s. history (it's not Virginia Tech or Columbine or UT):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Bassturbed please come out of the bunker and smell reality.
Concealed weapons were the cause of the loss of 32 innocent lives.

baloney.

a fox can have his way in the chicken coop.

32 people died because a nutbag was on the loose and there was a no guns on campus policy.

Estimated percentage of Virginians who carry concealed: 1% or more

Number of VT students: 25,000

Number of VT students who might have been able to stop this tragedy from unfolding if allowed by school to conceal carry: 250



http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html

Monday - April 16, 2007


CARNAGE AT VIRGINIA TECH

Like me, I'm sure many of you are busy tracking the news stories out of Blacksburg, Virginia. A person, presumably a student, armed with two semi-automatic pistols has hilled at least 32 people. The shooter is dead. Whether by his own hand, or at the hands of law enforcement, is not yet known.

As the initial shock wears off you can bet that the anti-Second Amendment people wall be coming out of the woodwork. By the time the evening network newscasts hit we will have no shortage of spokesmen for various anti-gun groups stepping forth to issue their tired call for an end to the private ownership of handguns.

This is undoubtedly the worst school shooting, high school, college or otherwise, in the history of our country. There are some facts, however, about some of these school shootings of which you probably are not aware. Do you know, for instance, that at least three shootings in high schools were stopped by civilians with guns? Civilians, not law enforcement. In one case a civilian was traveling past a school when he saw children running from the building. One told him that there was a student inside shooting people. The civilian pulled his gun, ran in side, and confronted the student. The student put down the gun and surrendered. In another case a high school vice-principal heard that there was a student in the hallways with a gun. He sprinted a half-mile to his car. He had a gun in his car so he had to park off campus. He then sprinted back with the gun to confront the student. Lives saved.

The point here is that you are never ever going to get the guns out of the hands of those who want to use them for carnage. Never. Gun control programs will only succeed in getting the guns out of the hands of people who want them and need them for self-defense. Never, in the history of America's gun control movement, has anyone set forth a viable program to get the guns out of the hands of those who would use them to commit crimes. Similarly, the gun control movement will never give any fair coverage at all to the people who use guns to save their own lives, or the lives of others.

We'll have much more to say about this tomorrow. For now, you should know that earlier this year the Virginia General Assembly failed to act on House Bill 1572. This bill would have allowed college students and employees to carry handguns on campus --- with appropriate permits, of course. It died in subcommittee. Larry Hincker, a spokesman for Virginia Tech, the site of today's carnage, said "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

Well .. how's today for safety?

If it had been legal for students, employees or faculty members with permits to carry guns on the campus, is it at all possible that there might be some students alive today who didn't make it through the carnage? Do you think the actions of the Virginia General Assembly stopped the gunman from getting his guns and carrying them to the campus?

More on this tomorrow.

Bassturbed please come out of the bunker and smell reality.
Concealed weapons were the cause of the loss of 32 innocent lives.

Get yer facts straight.31 Innocent lives unless you consider the killer innocent.

The state of VA. does not allow the carrying of concealed weapons without stringent regs.If VA had better laws and the university had not banned guns altogether someone might have been able to prevent this.

If YOU were in a position to prevent the killing of another person by you having the use of a firearm would you kill the perp to save the lives of the innocent?Of course you would.

Here in America those states/cities/towns where its permissable for good law-abiding citizens to carry the crime rate is negligible.This is an undisputable fact.

You want proof?Ask Texas state representative Suzanna Gratia.She watched her father and mother along with 21 others were murdered.
She was the #1 instrumental person in getting TX CC passed.The TX crime rate is so low its actually peaceful.

Best advice...worry about your own country.The UK has enough of its share of serial killers,child molestors/kindnappers/murderers for you even begin to judge US society.

HORRIBLE! :hs: :(
I just saw video on news from a cell phone, looked like the cops weren't moving too fast. What a sad day.
I'm with Ben, more armed citizens can help in situations like this.

I agree. The laws only stop the law abiding from carrying.....not the lunatics that do these things.

Bassturbed please come out of the bunker and smell reality.
Concealed weapons were the cause of the loss of 32 innocent lives.
oh boy, here we go. We are going to be lectured now from across the big pond.
I hear the crime rate has really gone down since they banned most of your guns over there..:hs:
im not getting sucked into this debate ,but please stick to politics in your own country.do not lecture us, esp not at this tragic time.
want to talk fishing?, we are all ears.

The whole thing sucks, lunatics are everywhere.

Tonight at bedtime I went over the lock down procedures at the elementary school with my 6 and 8yr old kids.

Sad day, very, very sad day.

Bassturbed please come out of the bunker and smell reality.
Concealed weapons were the cause of the loss of 32 innocent lives.

Wow, I thought it was a criminal acting out on unmarmed school kids that was the cause of this. Who knew a gun in your waistband could do this all by itself.

oh boy, here we go. We are going to be lectured now from across the big pond.
I hear the crime rate has really gone down since they banned most of your guns over there..:hs:
im not getting sucked into this debate ,but please stick to politics in your own country.do not lecture us, esp not at this tragic time.
want to talk fishing?, we are all ears.

I am a US citizen and currently working in the UK. You should be able to have a discussion with anyone about issues. I was not making any political statement pro or con re: gun control. You want to arm the cops on campus fine. Having an armed student body is probably not the way to go.

Supposedly a Korean national in the country about since he was 8 years old did this. Awful, simply awful.

Supposedly a Chinese national in the country about 18 months did this. Awful, simply awful.
Doesn't sound like a US citizen then , does it.
I guess we are a little too easy with the student visas.


Mosholu, where do you hail from in the states? Not near mosholu parkway in the Bronx by any chance is it ? cause Im very familiar with that area.

I guess we are a little too easy with the student visas.
Actually it's the other way around. Tighter post 9/11 restrictions are keeping a lot of talent overseas.

It's pretty revolting to see this tragic incident used for emotional political statements before the blood is even dry. Sure, guns don't kill people, but there's a time and a place for that debate.

-spence

Actually it's the other way around. Tighter post 9/11 restrictions are keeping a lot of talent overseas.
-spence
"Talent", Perhaps, "Crazy" obviously NOT. Maybe we need to screen people differently and not worry about offending non citizens by profiling. I just wonder if there is a history of mental illness here with this kid. I wonder.
The facts will speak for themselves.
and btw, how and when we DISCUSS this is also part of another one of our rights, remember the 1st amendment? No political gain, just a real tragedy, and I think there are ways to prevent this from happening again, at least to this degree.

I'd wager no amount of profiling or VISA restrictions would have stopped this...unless the nutcase had a crimininal record.

-spence

yeah a bunch of drunk college kids carrying around concealed weapons is a good idea. :rollem: get real

what a horrible, horrible tragedy...

yeah a bunch of drunk college kids carrying around concealed weapons is a good idea. :rollem: get real

what a horrible, horrible tragedy...

I was waiting for someone to say that. I'm pro gun - but that is ridiculos :lasso:

yeah a bunch of drunk college kids carrying around concealed weapons is a good idea. :rollem: get real

what a horrible, horrible tragedy...

I was thinking of if even just one proffessor had the right to carry, maybe it would not have escalated.

the whole thing is sad

the more screwed up this world gets, the more these things will happen unfortunately.
:(

One or two professors on campus wouldn't make much difference and a student gun-free dorm makes a little sense (guns & alcohol?? - bad mix). BUT campus security should be armed and perhaps a better response system in place. Horse is out of the barn unfortunately...

what is the minimum military enlistment age in the U.S. and the U.K.?

Oh, you mean we can't TRUST 17/18 year-olds to handle weapons of mass destruction and defend our country?

I understand the discomfort factor involved with armed college students. But then we should raise the minimum age for cops and soldiers to 21, right?

btw, the minimum age for a valid resident or non-resident concealed handgun permit to be issued in VA is 21.

there is no info out yet...but my gut tells me that the shooter did not have a concealed carry permit. anyways, he was wearing a tactical vest, so it was obvious (at least to the trained eye) that he was armed.

the shooter killed 2 people in a dorm ... and then two hours later popped into a classroom and killed 30 more like fish in a barrel.

again, if there was just ONE person in that classroom who could have fired back (a professor, a maintenance man, if not another 21 year old licensed student), there might have been a different ending here.

of this Tradgedy

but after just reading that.... ben

i'm dying to see the movie now...
where everyone is talking in class
and in busts this shooter a-hole
threatening to shoot everybody
and about six students pull their pistols
and blow that piece of $hit away....
Blam blam blam blam blam blam DONE!

ATF just grilled the dealer for 3 hours.

Guy shot up the school with a Glock 19 and a Walter P-22, purchased 35 days ago. The s/n was allegedly ground off the Glock, but he had the receipt for the gun in his pocket. :confused:

shooter's last name is reportedly Cho. That pegs him as a Korean. Bastard.

I hear that its cool to talk gun control and fight in threads about something that is a tragedy and really has no need to be fought over.

These kids were lined up and shot execution style.
Go to SOL if you want to fight over gun control.

There is a huge difference between 17 - 18 civilians and 17 -18 yr old trained soldiers.

My view is security guards need guns to be effective.

shooter's last name is reportedly Cho. That pegs him as a Korean. Bastard.

And Charles Whitman was an honorably discharged United States Marine. Born and bred white boy. You have a point or just running your mouth?

Ben - Apples & Oranges - this is an issue of responsible weapons training. If the 17/18 year old kids have the proper training - like army grunts that have gone through basic - then their AIT - then unit training, all under the leadership of older corporals and sargeants. Even an adult would have been hard pressed to go up against this well armed psycho.



Liquid - while I agree that this thread should not be about gun control why would you direct him somewhere else? Are we incapable of discussing this? You and Ben are about as far apart politically as anyone here but you don't have (too) many people suggesting you go elsewhere to soapbox your opinions...

These kids were lined up and shot execution style.

eyewitness accounts contradict this - the guy came into the classroom and just started shooting.

Ben - Apples & Oranges - this is an issue of responsible weapons training. If the 17/18 year old kids have the proper training - like army grunts that have gone through basic - then their AIT - then unit training, all under the leadership of older corporals and sargeants. Even an adult would have been hard pressed to go up against this well armed psycho.


1. training or no advanced training, an armed professor or student present in the classroom has better odds of taking out this bad guy than unarmed sheeple are.

2. Virginia concealed handgun permit holders are REQUIRED to have some training before their permit is issued.

You have a point or just running your mouth?


eek, sorry Likwid, I'm bouncing between three different forums.

Geraldo Rivera incorrectly identified the shooter as a 24-year old Chinese national, and pointed to that person's blog. That person is not the shooter and has said so on his blog (he's still alive, I guess that tells you something).

The real shooter's parents and immediate family will be overwhelmed with shame for this despicable act.

No preparartion by the security forceat the school would have put then where needed at the time needed. they could all be Rambos but if they aren't in the exact room at that moment , no chnace. the idea that everyone should be armed to defend themselves in this kind of situation has some merit. i always thought that if i was in the victims spot , I;'d want to at least try to shoot back if i had a weapon.

On the other hand , 33 dead by a nut case in a rare even is better than 500 dead , 2 per night , as people blast eachother at drunken college partys over sports , broken hearts , last weeks cardgame , etc.

I honestly don't think there is anything that can be done to guard against the lone rabid gunman. He gets to pick his target. If he's at all lucid , he's going to avoid any security etc when he chooses where he will go balistic.

yup it was a 23 year-old South Korean national.

confirmed 9mm and .22. likely only used the 9mm.

Remember, a lot of these "Law-Abiding" Citizens that you want to arm are also the Same ones that are doing Keg-Stands and Jello-Shots on an almost nighty basis.

Tell me that ain't a recipe for disaster in itself

true, but what about professors, teaching assistance and other employees?

also, it is unlawful for concealed handgun permittees to be under the influence of alcohol/drugs and be armed. most people who value their permits understand this.

the same goes with cars. you don't booze and drive cars at the same time. most responsible people who value their driving privileges understand this.

and by the way, i slept with a loaded .357 mag under my bed in school. no problems whatsoever.

I agree with you there....No problem with the Professors and responsible adults having them....its just the kids that make me nervous.

I don't think to many students major in Common Sense 101 these days....although they should

Remember, a lot of these "Law-Abiding" Citizens that you want to arm are also the Same ones that are doing Keg-Stands and Jello-Shots on an almost nighty basis.

Tell me that ain't a recipe for disaster in itself
but remember
the guys in the military do too .
I dont agree with arming the students , arm the employees ! let them carry to work . who is in the halls ,the basement , all over the campus and most have an idea whats right and wrong . da employees . they even know how to get into buildings with chained doors . service tunnels

I have very strong feeling about all of this. I agree with some and disagree with others. Guns dont belong in the hands of anyone without proper training and respect.
There is a lot that can be learned from all this. Dont waste it.
The highest price has already been paid by 31 inocent lives. Now make decisions with this very expensive knowledge so it isnt likely to happen again. He (the gunman) couldnt be stopped prior to this, but it should not have taken so long to end it.

(this is the tamed down version)

but remember
the guys in the military do too .

But they don't have their guns with them...they are locked up in the Armory when they are out partying on town.

....and Mommy and Daddy aren't going to bail out some enlisted dude when he does something stupid with it.

what happens to a guy in the Miltary if he gets caught drunk on Watch.....he'll be paying for it for quite awhile

No gun control in the world would've stopped this kid from doing this, he clearly had a vision in his mind of commiting mass murder, regalrdless of the gun laws, this kid would've found a way to gain access to a firearm and commit murder. If someone wants a gun that bad they'll find a way to get one, regardless of how tough the gun laws are.

So all the people calling for more gun control just dont get it, this kid would've found a way to get a gun regardless.

Rot in hell you %$%$%$%$ing murdering bastard:mad: :realmad:

Just heard on the news that one of the kids murdered was from Lincoln, RI Hits even closer to home now.

There's no way the legal carry is at 1%. 1% may have permits, but that doesn't mean 1% carry.

I have a permit and carry about 0.5% of the time. Someone could shoot up the office and my pistol would be safe and sound at home while I'm contemplating taking a pen to a gun fight. I don't think most people would carry to class - why would you need to?

I really don't think this a legal carry issue, other than to say we need more licensing and more actual legal carry. Even where legal, laws and society provide a strong disincentive.

CNN reported yesterday that the suspect was reportedly carrying a 9mm and 22mm pistol. That pretty much sums up their understanding of guns.

There's no way the legal carry is at 1%. 1% may have permits, but that doesn't mean 1% carry.

I have a permit and carry about 0.5% of the time....I don't think most people would carry to class - why would you need to?



Sadly, there were at least 33 reasons yesterday to carry to class.

Nobody says you HAVE to CCW, but those willing to shoulder the burden (and it is a BURDEN) should be allowed to.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f15/30calslut/TRUST1665.jpg

Gotta love Oleg Volk..

thought you'd recognize that, bill.

But they don't have their guns with them...they are locked up in the Armory when they are out partying on town.

....and Mommy and Daddy aren't going to bail out some enlisted dude when he does something stupid with it.

what happens to a guy in the Miltary if he gets caught drunk on Watch.....he'll be paying for it for quite awhile


I knew people that partied on guard duty ( with 45's ) , on manuevers with 45's and m2 mg and in m60 tanks ( 105 mm (63 rounds ) 50 cal and 2 7.62 mg and more ammo you could shake a stick at . No partying in town with weapons and no mommy and daddy , but it still happened . today the younguns think differently and I blame todays parent

I can tell you that the shooter could and probably did buy the weapons legally and was probably permitted. A resident alien can get a permit to carry for any number of reasons. I have issued two that I can recall recently.

I think since this guy was under treatment for depression the law should read or a law should be in place that a state and national check be done after giving a precription for treatment of depression or any other mental illness. All of these shootings have been done by people who are unfit mentally. While mental illness is certainly treatable guns and access to guns should be taken away until its amedical certainty the person has recovered.

We're looking at colleges now, so this situation is most disheartening as far as letting my teenager go too far away. But are there really folks out there who seriously think the threat will go away by arming the students? I'm wondering if that isn't a step backwards instead of making college campuses safer you're not turning them into Dodge City. I'm dealing with today's high school student right now, and while she's extremely intelligent, she is in no way, shape or manner anywhere near responsible enough to possess a gun, let alone have what it takes to use it, and have her glasses with her, and have the gun loaded and not in the bottom of her backpack in a situation where she might need to. She can't go a week without misplacing her glasses, driver's license, or cell phone and most of her friends are no better. There's got to be some other recourse than arming students and faculty, maybe something like sky marshalls dressed like students randomly walking around campus.

jimbo, nobody is saying your daughter HAS to carry a weapon.

Carrying a weapon lawfully carries a huge responsibility (as does driving a car lawfully).

It's not for everyone ... but the relatively few people who do (in VA we assume 1% of the population based on carry permit records, which are public...but maybe not for long) should be allowed to without hindrance.

Again, if you are uncomfortable with students carrying, can you argue with more mature folk like professors and employees and teaching assistants?

Did anyone notice how well all of the students spoke before the camera? How polite they were and even if they condemned/critisized someones job performance they were decent about it. VTech has a strong/large ROTC background and courses. The students seemed mature and had a good grasp of what had taken place.

One more thing, a gunmen bent on murder doesn't have his weapon holstered, its out and in the gunman's hand ready to perform. The law abiding citizen keeps his weapon holstered, probably with a saftey snap mechanism. If some pulls a gun on you you have no way of getting yours out to defend yourself. Any training states, distance first, then defense. Any officer who has survived a shooting will tell you he turned and ran first then while running drew his weapon. My point is how many college students are going to know what to do if faced with what the VTech students were faced with. How many without any real training would actually pull the trigger? I know people who are trained to pull the trigger that are incapable of doing so. I know that trainees in police academys when given thier weapons can't pull the trigger and were dismissed/fired.

The other point I can think of is suppose 20 of 30 students have weapons on them (most would be left in backpacks, which is an absurd thought, and not on there person) in a class. Someone comes into the room, gets the dropped on them and confiscates the 20 weapons from the carrying students. Now the gunman would have 22 weapons, not 2.

I know what you mean b-turbed but when this guy fires 27 rounds in under a minute in the first classroom thier is not much one can do. Stories of the heroic acts are starting to emerge. I am sure we will hear of students teachers who attempted to engage this puke and died.

I think since this guy was under treatment for depression the law should read or a law should be in place that a state and national check be done after giving a precription for treatment of depression or any other mental illness. All of these shootings have been done by people who are unfit mentally. While mental illness is certainly treatable guns and access to guns should be taken away until its amedical certainty the person has recovered.

BINGO!!! this covers it in a nutshell ,pardon the unintentional pun.
I got no problem with that.
Youre under a doctors care for depression, and on MEDS, you LOSE your right to your guns. PERIOND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Remember when TYSON beat up those senior citizens , cause the old guy cut him off on the road. IMAGINE if that bafoon had a gun at that time. He was so stoked on Zoloft he would have killed his own parents that day.
Since were pointing fingers at guns and all, what about the pharmaceutical companies, who make drugs which have "RAGE" & "MANIA"as a possible side effects???

swimmer, i think it highly unlikely that one person could disarm 20-30 people in a room. i wouldn't give up my gun - not that the shooter would ever know i was carrying one.

carrying a loaded pistol or revolver in a backpack or purse is an unsound and unsafe practice. you're responsible for whatever happens to that weapon. a loaded weapon should be on your person under your control (properly holstered). there are many many good options out there for deep concealment - be it a belly band, an ankle holster, or a tuckable IWB.

as far as a mental illness database - no such animal exists on a national level, i think. this is mostly a state thing.

problem is, you run into privacy challenges. secondly, not all mental illnesses should disqualify one from being able to have a firearm. it really depends on the individual. example: vietnam vet who is active LEO being treated for PTSD, but is still capable of CCW'ing.

i don't know how such a database would work, but don't think it would be a bad thing to have.

I hear you Bassturbed. Just offering up some fears I have with what you propose. I still like the idea that if your taking meds for depression you lose your weapons/permits.

I still like the idea that if your taking meds for depression you lose your weapons/permits.

that is the case in many states.

for what it's worth, question 12 f. on ATF 4473 is:

"Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes being adjudicated incompetent to manage your own affiars) or have you ever been committed to a mental institution?"

of course, if you really want the gun you're going to answer "no."

Did anyone notice how well all of the students spoke before the camera? How polite they were and even if they condemned/critisized someones job performance they were decent about it. VTech has a strong/large ROTC background and courses. The students seemed mature and had a good grasp of what had taken place.

One more thing, a gunmen bent on murder doesn't have his weapon holstered, its out and in the gunman's hand ready to perform. The law abiding citizen keeps his weapon holstered, probably with a saftey snap mechanism. If some pulls a gun on you you have no way of getting yours out to defend yourself. Any training states, distance first, then defense. Any officer who has survived a shooting will tell you he turned and ran first then while running drew his weapon. My point is how many college students are going to know what to do if faced with what the VTech students were faced with. How many without any real training would actually pull the trigger? I know people who are trained to pull the trigger that are incapable of doing so. I know that trainees in police academys when given thier weapons can't pull the trigger and were dismissed/fired.

The other point I can think of is suppose 20 of 30 students have weapons on them (most would be left in backpacks, which is an absurd thought, and not on there person) in a class. Someone comes into the room, gets the dropped on them and confiscates the 20 weapons from the carrying students. Now the gunman would have 22 weapons, not 2.

I know what you mean b-turbed but when this guy fires 27 rounds in under a minute in the first classroom thier is not much one can do. Stories of the heroic acts are starting to emerge. I am sure we will hear of students teachers who attempted to engage this puke and died.

If one or more of those students and teachers had a gun and tried to use it would they have been any worse off? Even if they died anyway, they may have prevented the deaths of others. We teach people to be complacent in the face of threats, why didn't any of them try anything to defend themselves? Because they were taught not to! Never attack anyone! Christ they could have at least thrown a chair at him or at least tried to run away. A moving target is a lot harder to hit than one kneeling on the floor in front of you.

I heard on the radio that there was a 60+ year old jewish teacher who either himself survived the Holocast, or his father did? im not sure exactly .but anyway, he was a teacher, and he barracaded himself & his students into his classroom and although bullets were flying through the door he stood his ground. He is a true hero, if this info is correct. Noone in his class supposedly was killed.
Another student who also supposedly barracaded the door, but that was after the shooter killed 15 already in that classroom & left.
just very sad.

yes, that prof had major balls and i salute him.

bitter irony, to have survived the holocaust and then be killed yesterday.

true, but what about professors, teaching assistance and other employees?
also, it is unlawful for concealed handgun permittees to be under the influence of alcohol/drugs and be armed. most people who value their permits understand this.

the same goes with cars. you don't booze and drive cars at the same time. most responsible people who value their driving privileges understand this.

and by the way, i slept with a loaded .357 mag under my bed in school. no problems whatsoever.


That's assuming that the people you mentioned want to exercise their right to keep and bear arms. You can't force them too....so maybe most teachers and professors and othe remployees at the school are anti gun. You end up with a similar result. Then what, sue the school because someone went nuts and the teacher didn't provide the necessary protection he could have if he had been carrying?

I can tell you that the shooter could and probably did buy the weapons legally and was probably permitted. A resident alien can get a permit to carry for any number of reasons. I have issued two that I can recall recently.

I think since this guy was under treatment for depression the law should read or a law should be in place that a state and national check be done after giving a precription for treatment of depression or any other mental illness. All of these shootings have been done by people who are unfit mentally. While mental illness is certainly treatable guns and access to guns should be taken away until its amedical certainty the person has recovered.

good idea wish it was easy to put into law . kinda like the people that are against national licensing . what is the hurry that you need a weapon now and not in 2 weeks . the geese going to fly away ?

the other part is he was one of their own ( student ) . how do you stop someone that has access to building that an outsider may not . we have gates with card access and keys needed for stairways and entry doors . still if one of the little darlings wanted to start a simular event , there would be no way to stop them until the damage was started .

Chris,

If my info is correct, the gun that was used in the shooting was legally purchased 35 days ago.

Not sure what a 2 week waiting period would accomplish.

We have the technology to do instant checks even in our home state (for valid pistol permit holders).

Not too long ago I witnessed a gun dealer call the staties for transaction approval on a handgun. He gave the staties the pistol permit number ... and then said "by the way, this man's shrink just called and told me the applicant is suicidal." The applicant was denied for a handgun purchase.

I applaud 1) the doc for having the foresight to call the dealer, and 2) the dealer for ethically volunteering the info to the staties.

We have pretty well-developed criminal history databases, but not mental illness databases. I mean, some states may have involuntary committment records that are readily available, but there's nothing that says "joe blow is taking anti-depressant meds right now."

you know, i just raised a hornet's nest on some gun chat boards about anti-depressants.

they are are apparently used for a LOT of illnesses, like heart disease, fibromyalgia, weight loss, smoking cessation, and sleeplessness, particularly amongst the older crowd. you'd be making a lot of people ineligible by restricting the rights of someone solely based on the fact that they are taking a particular medication.

Bassturbed I am familiar with the questions on the permit apps, the only problem is there is not any way of checking whether the applicant answers that question truthfully. Now with the new federal HIPPA law it will be harder to find out anything about anyones health. I refused to give a permit out twenty some odd years ago to a person I knew was lying. Moved to town, a week later walks into the p.d. and fills out the application. His father was a chief in a small town, (so why didn't he get it there), no one would give me the time of day in that town. Things were different then than now. Then you could ask about physical or mental problems. He went to court, which in Mass. is/was his right. Judge said I didn't have grounds not to issue it. So I did. A week after I gave it to him the ambulance was sent to the front of his apartment. He was on the sidewalk in the throws of a mental breakdown. Laying next to him was a gun that fell out of his coat. Took the gun and the permit. Never saw him again. Gun was melted in the local foundry, permit was shredded.

Yah Makomike I wanted to ask that question myself, but I figured I had suggested and said enough. The only one so far to have defended themselves yet was the holocaust survivor. It doesn't take much to understand that one. And that brings me to why I reasoned the way I did about armed students. Not one seemed to defend themselvves by going after the shooter, throwing a chair, table, books, whatever. Thats why I say I find it difficult to imagine anyone of them shooting someone. It is an action that has to be ingrained into a moral law-abiding person. Shooting someone is an action that is contrary to most everyones psychological makeup and generally great thought beforehand is given before one decides that they are capable of doing so.

I do believe firmly that if they want to carry they should be allowed to with proper training and guidance, no doubt about it.

Chris,
you know, i just raised a hornet's nest on some gun chat boards about anti-depressants.

they are are apparently used for a LOT of illnesses, like heart disease, fibromyalgia, weight loss, smoking cessation, and sleeplessness, particularly amongst the older crowd. you'd be making a lot of people ineligible by restricting the rights of someone solely based on the fact that they are taking a particular medication.

Not all criminal records can be accessed immediately. Some are on (older) micro film in different states. When you do a III (triple i) if they are on micro it can take a few weeks to get. Thats O.K. if your talking about a permit application and not a seven day buy rule. Many times the III wont come back before the hard copy of the micro fiche arrives.

Bassturbed all those physical problems you just mentioned (in quote) whose sufferers may take anti-depressants. All those people generally suffer from some form of depression do they not.

the glock had the serial number filed off i thought...
so maybe you're talkin about the other gun.... :huh:

they can still magnetize the glock and get the stamp to
align the filings on the spot to read it...

sooner or later we will have computer technology
capable of brain analysis which will shed more
lite on this type of violent behavior.

Say all you want about not having legally armed students in school, how there isn't enough time to get your gun when someone has the drop on you, but the facts speak for itself. It took me awhile to find this because most of the media accounts say students tackled the shooter, not that he was first subdued at gunpoint by lawfully armed citizens.....


http://www.uwire.com/content/topops012402002.html




COLUMN: Law school, guns, and a media bias

By James Eaves-Johnson

The Daily Iowan (U. Iowa)
01/24/2002





TODAY'S HEADLINES
01/24/2002







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CD REVIEW: Nas, Wu-Tang Clan show growth, change with new albums

COLUMN: Rural America faces inevitable death

COLUMN: Law school, guns, and a media bias





(U-WIRE) IOWA CITY, Iowa -- Last week, a disgruntled student at Appalachian School of Law in Grundy, Va., went on a shooting spree. Peter Odighizuwa tragically shot six people, killing Dean Anthony Sutin, Associate Professor Thomas Blackwell, and student Angela Dales.
Most news reports pointed out that the situation ended when several students "confronted," "tackled," or "intervened." However, Tracy Bridges, Ted Besen, Todd Ross, and Mikael Gross did not merely "confront" Odighizuwa. Bridges and Gross separately ran to their cars to get their handguns once the shooting began. Bridges approached Odighizuwa with Besen's and Ross' aid. Gross was close behind. According to Bridges, "I aimed my gun at him, and Peter tossed his gun down." Bridges, Besen, and Gross had previously received police or military training.

Unfortunately, the media did not point out that the "intervening" students were armed. A Lexis-Nexis search revealed 88 stories on the topic, of which only two mentioned that either Bridges or Gross were armed. A Westnews search exposed worse results. It revealed 112 stories, of which only two mentioned the armed students.

With media bias like this, it is no wonder that people fail to see the benefits of gun ownership. This was a very public shooting with a lot of media coverage. Even here, reporters rarely presented the positive side of firearms. Instead, they preferred to default to the politically correct story portraying guns as something only the bad guy uses.

Of course, this media bias is not unprecedented. A more thorough Lexis-Nexis search by a Yale researcher revealed 687 articles on the school shooting in Pearl, Miss. Of those, only 19 mentioned that Assistant Principal Joel Myrick retrieved a gun from his car and stopped the shooters four-and-a-half minutes before police arrived.

Few will remember that an armed guard helped many students at Columbine escape and was thwarted only when shooters began using explosives. Fewer still will remember that a restaurant owner who was hosting a school dance for students in Edinboro, Pa., stopped a student shooter 11 minutes before police could arrive.

Our myopic view of guns leads too many of us to believe that if we disarm people, we will be safer. Unfortunately, mandatory disarmament only disarms those who are interested in obeying the law. Laws against gun ownership and possession are ineffective against those who would do us harm.

No one would believe that people in Iowa City don't smoke marijuana or that underage college students don't find ways to procure alcohol. Why should we be any more naïve when it comes to rules against firearms?

I was unable to discover Appalachian School of Law's weapons policy, but if it is like almost every other law school in the country, it probably prohibits students from possessing guns on campus. That is probably why Bridges and Gross did not have their guns on their persons. Imagine what these men might have prevented if they could have responded immediately, guns in hand.

Unfortunately, at the University of Iowa, we are more defenseless. The university prohibits the possession of firearms. At our law school, as on most of the campus, people would be unable to run to their cars to fetch their guns, as the only available nearby parking is on university property.

Even worse, our Public Safety officers would be unable to protect us. Only last week did the state of Iowa Board of Regents decide to arm Public Safety officers with air Tasers. Most Tasers are ineffective at more than 21 feet, and they can be defeated with a heavy coat. The UI officers are trained to use firearms, like ordinary police officers, and they have the authority to do almost everything an Iowa City police officer does.

The university should allow responsible individuals with defensive firearms training to carry arms on campus. That begins with the officers who are responsible for our safety. Right now, we are at the mercy of any thug willing to come on campus with a gun. Many would be murdered before Iowa City police could arrive. The presence of responsible armed individuals on campus could reduce or prevent the harm done by a thug. Just over 10 years ago, the UI was visited by such a thug. We are just as defenseless today as we were then. Even the students in Grundy, Va., weren't so defenseless.

i cant think of a more important time for Law abiding citizens to arm themselves. I think every person with out a violent criminal record should carry a concealed handgun. the thugs will calm down real quick when they know if they try to mug granny they might get a cap in there ass.

You can't even speculate whether someone would have shot in this situation if they were armed.

Nobody has any clue what anyone would do, training or no training without having been put in that situation themselves.

Paper does not shoot back.

There is ZERO factual evidence that shows that any amount of shooting time, cqb training or anything else like that would allow a completely caught by surprise KID to draw and fire. Never mind not accidentally shooting another innocent...

Would someone armed have helped this situation?
Nobody will know.
Period.

Circular logic with circular reasoning leads to the same argument over and over.

everything in life goes full circle

i have a feeling this event is going to have
allot of lawsuits against the school because
nothing was done when the warning signs
were made known to school officials..

You can't even speculate whether someone would have shot in this situation if they were armed.

Nobody has any clue what anyone would do, training or no training without having been put in that situation themselves.

Paper does not shoot back.

There is ZERO factual evidence that shows that any amount of shooting time, cqb training or anything else like that would allow a completely caught by surprise KID to draw and fire. Never mind not accidentally shooting another innocent...

Would someone armed have helped this situation?
Nobody will know.
Period.

Circular logic with circular reasoning leads to the same argument over and over.

Well, I don't necessarily disagree with you Likwid.

But, I would prefer the probability (however small) of a lawfully armed citizen taking out a shooter [and possibly wounding me or another innocent] over the near certainty of being killed by a shooter if I am unarmed. You have to give people more credit than you are.

BTW, thirty of the thirty-two fatalities died before the cops arrived on scene.

Bassturbed all those physical problems you just mentioned (in quote) whose sufferers may take anti-depressants. All those people generally suffer from some form of depression do they not.

Swimmer, I am not a doctor so I am relying on the informed opinion of others. There seem to be numerous therapeutical applications for anti-depressants that are unrelated to depression. Like taking Zoloft for erectile dysfunction. :rotfl:

Then again, I guess I'd be a little depressed if I couldn't get my soldier to salute, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna shoot up a school. :spidey:

One of the pitfalls of screening people for anti-depressant use is that it may prompt people who need treatment to avoid it altogether for fear of tainting their otherwise pristine records. This has been borne out in FAA pilot licensing as well as military service screening (submarine programs).

You have to give people more credit than you are.

In a fight or flee situation most people will flee.
Not odds you want to bet on.

And honestly, I'm waiting for the "well the military trains people to deal with the stress". I'm sure anyone wanting a concealed permit wants to go through the programming say a Force Recon Marine goes through huh?

In a fight or flee situation most people will flee.
Not odds you want to bet on.

And honestly, I'm waiting for the "well the military trains people to deal with the stress". I'm sure anyone wanting a concealed permit wants to go through the programming say a Force Recon Marine goes through huh?

Likwid, I know what you're driving at. Most sheeple won't know what to do when shots start getting fired. They freeze. Then if they're smart they run. They don't have the training that directs them to run to gunfire.

A little civilian training, while not up to USMC tempo, does help, however. But most importantly, there are many people who are motivated to do the RIGHT THING whether they are armed or not.

While paper targets don't shoot back, a CCW'er who might regularly practice at the range will at least immediately be able to recognize AND NOT BE FLUSTERED BY gunfire. THAT in itself is useful.

I'm no macho armchair mall ninja, but I can speak as someone who has personally experienced the unpleasantness of armed encounters.

I guess when there is nowhere to flee to, the weak will die and the strong will survive, that is natures way is'nt it.

Oh yeah the shooter who probably had no real training practiced by shooting at paper targets, granted that k no one shot back at him, but he did not know if anyone in that school was gonna be armed and shoot back. By the way I have had people shoot at me before, and I was'nt scared I was pi$$ed. Most people with CCW's are type A people who when adrenaline kicks in will not be afraid, most will not fear the sound of gun fire, having been conditioned to it from hundreds of hours at the range, and will think more clearly than others who have not. You believe what you want to, but all I know is that I will never be a victim as long as I have my CCW and the means to carry.

By the way I have had people shoot at me before, and I was'nt scared I was pi$$ed.

Well, I have no qualms admitting I was scared $hitless - "WTF this can't be happening." Out of my mind.

But training took over, thank God.

You never think you can shiver so hard a half hour or so post-confrontation.

dang. docs prescribe anti-depressants for irritable bowel syndrome.

what DON'T they prescribe them for? :confused:

My grandmother who is 88 now, was once help up at goinpoint(she was about 78? at the time), 2 thugs with what looked lile a "big silver revolver" to her. The thugs were for real ,as the cops told us later. it was raining, and she BEAT one of them over the head with an umbrella, and yelled police as loud as she could. they RAN & got nothing. Granted this a completely diff situation,and was on a city block in the bronx where a cop could literally have been around the corner, turns out they were just a minute away. Point is, people react diff to situation. Some just choose NOT to be a victim. grandma has a hist(when she was very young ) of defending herself, but I cant get into that here.
As stated above, training takes over when u are being shot at. My NYC cop friends , all say the same thing, they get really PISSED when being shot at, none of them cower down ,they shoot back, and usually they have to restrain themselved from killing the perp.
Proper training saves lives. Im guessing a lot of our boys over in Iraq were absol no diff than these college students, but they were properly trained, and now fear almost noone. You only need one guy to step up.
The drunken college kid comment is somewhat lame IMO, cops drink too when they are off duty. Carrying is a huge responsibility and not everyone would be qualified, 21 is a good age IMO, and if you would not even trust a professor with a permit, maybe you should not send your kids to that school. Personally I would feel a lot safer knowing that Profs like that Holocaust survivor (who gave his life without any hesitation) were packing.

Ben the situations I was in were different, I was deer hunting, and I could see the A hole, so I yelled at him. He just took off, he was about 80 yards away in the woods . When I was 17 I had a 357 shoved in my face while closing my cousins pizza place at night. I can honestly say I was'nt scared, just level headed, gave them what they wanted and they left.

bill, that sucks.

i agree with slip. if people were of age and had a concealed weapon, alot of killing perhaps could have been prevented. guns dont kill people, people kill people. just because he had a gun doesnt mean that guns should now be banned. i think the opposite is true: allow for concealed gun carry on campuses for those that have a permit. it could save a lot of innocent lives as well as time for police to get there.

a side note for those who have resident and non-resident Class A and Class B LTC in Mass:

College campuses have been and are off-limits to handguns.

Unless you have permission from school officials to carry, possess, store, or transport.

Yeah right. Try getting permission for THAT at BU.

Have faith, though. BU Police, Newton Police, and Boston Police and the Staties will all show up half an hour later to move your lifeless body to the medical examiner of your fellow taxpayer's choice.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f15/30calslut/solutions.jpg

I wasn't going to add anything to this but........

There is a trailer used in training in my area that the sherriff's department tows to various locals and department instructors take officers in one or two at a time. The trailer is lined with thick steel and rubber on the inside and coupled with a lead ejection system is a really neat way to train in shoot/dont shoot situations. Their were as I understood approximately 100 different taped shoot/dont shoot confrontations on tape. You use the forward half of the trailer, and interact with what ever is taking place on the screen in front of you. Real ammunition is used. While no one would comment on who they shot or how many rounds they fired at different perps on the screen I did find a noticable difference between myself and two much younger officers I went through the exercise with. There was a noticable difference with what I felt comfortable with as an end result and what the younger officers found acceptable. You can see the bullet penentrate the perp/screen and while the other officers fired thier weapons, they did not fire as much or as soon as I found necessary.
The only younger officers who do protect themselves adequately are the veterans. While the others reaction time is considered appropriate it might not keep them healthy. My point is the younger the person, less experienced in life, the less likely they'll shoot at all, or enough to "stop" the person.
Again I have to say distance is the first choice one needs from the aggressor. It increases the chance of survival in multiples that can't be measured almost.
Many well thought out posts on this, very interesting.

Bassturbed, sorry to hear about your "ED".

Swimmer,

I will go on record saying that the average gun owner who intends to CCW could use more training to understand the practical, legal, and moral issues. They are quite complex, as you know.

In my mind, a basic handgun safety course just doesn't cut it for the average joe. It is but an introduction.

LEO's such as yourself get periodic training and refreshers on the job.

Folks in the private sector need to pay for it. I think every person who CCW's should at a minimum take DOCUMENTABLE TRAINING such as LFI I (http://www.ayoob.com) or similar, and take a fighting handgun/force-on-force course (such as offered by http://www.tacticalresponse.com) on top of that. And plenty of range practice in between.

Comprehensive shoot/don't shoot exercises are probably more applicable to LEO's, as the average citizen isn't exposed to the same kinds of scenarios as cops are. The best I've ever got was a simulator exercise.

I was shot at once, Mission Hill, I fled - bet your ass...

info for the Rhode Island crowd...

RI is on paper a "shall-issue" state for RI residents ("may-issue" for nonresidents).

an increasing number of people have aggressively pushed their local pd's for carry permits and have gotten them.

more info here: (go to the message board).

http://www.cralri.com/

Is there any doubt in anyone's mind that if that courageous professor that blocked the door had a gun the whole incident would have ended right there?

MM I was thinking the same thing...

okay, there's one FBI source saying that the shooter was NOT on anti-depressants.

:uhoh:

Yahoo headlines are stating the the shooter had a history or mental problems and was a loner. Anybody surprised by these facts? See any of the kid's writing?

Chris,

If my info is correct, the gun that was used in the shooting was legally purchased 35 days ago.


Not sure what a 2 week waiting period would accomplish.

We have the technology to do instant checks even in our home state (for valid pistol permit holders).

Not too long ago I witnessed a gun dealer call the staties for transaction approval on a handgun. He gave the staties the pistol permit number ... and then said "by the way, this man's shrink just called and told me the applicant is suicidal." The applicant was denied for a handgun purchase.

I applaud 1) the doc for having the foresight to call the dealer, and 2) the dealer for ethically volunteering the info to the staties.

We have pretty well-developed criminal history databases, but not mental illness databases. I mean, some states may have involuntary committment records that are readily available, but there's nothing that says "joe blow is taking anti-depressant meds right now."

you know, i just raised a hornet's nest on some gun chat boards about anti-depressants.

they are are apparently used for a LOT of illnesses, like heart disease, fibromyalgia, weight loss, smoking cessation, and sleeplessness, particularly amongst the older crowd. you'd be making a lot of people ineligible by restricting the rights of someone solely based on the fact that they are taking a particular medication.

in virginia anyone can legally buy a gun . anyone ! here in ct there is a waiting period . as there should be in every state . I know what we have here in Ct I have a permit to carry also . legally obtained and properly trained . the key word you said was "(for valid pistol permit holders)." what about the ones that dont have a valid permit and are out to try an obtain their very first one . oops no instant check , why cause there wasnt one done before , were we have and all they are looking for is recent issues that would warrent them taking it away . A waiting period is a good idea , whats the rush ? nothing would have stopped this idiot from doing what he did other than a bullet in the head . Why not ask why no one responded when a teacher brought this to the authorities ? there was nothing said/done illegal , but I bet they are wishing they at least looked into it . Its proof that no matter safe the authorities and citizens of this country want it safe and secure there isnt one thing that can be done to accomplish it . this is my opinion and doesnt reflect anyone else's ideas . I dont take anti-depressants for heart disease it depresses and inflates just fine . thank you very much

Chris - a background check applies to all gun sales in the U.S. wherever you are. Not everyone can buy a handgun in Virginia.

He bought the gun 36+ days ago. A seven or even fifteen day waiting period would not have helped.

In CT if you have a valid pistol permit ... THERE IS NO WAITING PERIOD except for NFA toys.

In this case, it looks like the NICS background check failed MISERABLY.

Fox News is reporting that the shooter was involuntarily committed (by court order) for psychiatric observation.

He was therefore INELIGIBLE to legally buy ANY gun under federal law.

According to my sources, the gun dealer did EVERYTHING BY THE BOOK and the purchaser had all the right documents and paperwork. HOWEVER, the applicant apparently LIED in his response to question 12 f of the ATF Form 4473. NICS (that's the fed.gov, folks!) cleared Cho for the purchase.

There was apparently a BREAKDOWN in the government database - he otherwise would have most certainly been DENIED a handgun purchase with this on his record.

Wow, this really is looking like a case where somebody just slipped through the cracks.

I've been nearly shot four times. Twice in the same day hunting, which I gave up. Not fo fear of being shot, but for fear that I'd return fire and kill someone. And twice by jokers who thought it was a fun idea. I could hear the slug rip past my head both times. Fun? Boy were they wrong. One got a beating and the other had his Dad's guns confiscated. Had I been armed, I woulda killed them both. I can honestly say that fear was not a factor, but focus sure was.
Having said that, I cannot imagine the depth of grief that all those familys are enduring. All those hopes and dreams gone..

The Kid made a video!!! And Manifest!!! You just feel so bad for the families, this story will be going for quite some time, forever for the families....I pray for them...

Unbelievable! Now we know what he was doing for those two hours... NBC just today got the package he sent from the post office on his way to the last shooting.... just blows my mind.


http://www.comcast.net/news/index.jsp?cat=GENERAL&fn=/2007/04/18/640434.html

so this bastard threw the media a bone and in turn the media whores are having a field day celebrating this monster. just what mr. cho wanted.

well, i'm not going to watch the videos or browse through the pictures or read the manifesto, because i won't bother glorifying mr. cho's psychotic actions. god what is the media thinking? they are just pouring salt into the fresh wounds of the victim's families.

i sincerely hope mr. cho's parents are wilting under the crushing ignominy of mr. cho's despicable, unimaginable, and senseless acts of violence that have brought unmeasurable SHAME to Koreans here and abroad.

it is my belief that mr. cho's upbringing was a major contributing factor to the awful events of 4/16/07. the mailman says his parents are good people? bosh! it doesn't take a genius to figure out that they raised a psychopath.

no wonder they are in hiding. if i were them i could commit ritual suicide.

whether or not he had a green card....

it was an act of terrorism ...plain and simple....

CNN editors should be jailed for plastering the web
with his photo....they're doing exactly what he wanted
them to do....i agree BEN.

this is madness - to show him pointing the same gun....:af:

So is this what CNN is going to do if and when another act of terrorism
happens.... by keeping the terror ALIVE..... bastards

I'm against censorship but in this case CNN should be censored!!!
by the President himself if need be....

I feel for the victim's families.They haven't even buried their loved ones yet and they're seeing an image that was probably the last thing they're loved ones saw before their death.I can't believe NBC news released everything and the media is giving this lunatic so much airtime.It's giving him the publicity and noteriety that he couldn't get before.Now he's doing it from beyond the grave.I just hope all the images/videos don't inspire or energize some other loser/loner to think that by committing mass murder,it's their way of being recognized. How about giving some coverage to the innocent victims?Do a segment on each one of them and profile their life cut short?At least give them equal time.The media in this country is repulsive...

+1, bigtime.

All the news agencies are cashing in on this. Pathetic really.

Swimmer, I agree with what you said about not being able to get to a gun in a backpack. Maybe if you had a gun, you could get it while he's shooting someone on the other side of the room. At least you'd have a chance.

Like Bassturbed, I'm sick of the news coverage of this, but I did see something that was a little unsettling. Police taking cover outside the building while he was shooting inside. It really rubs me the wrong way when you see police with their fancy tactical gear hiding. It's great to have nice clothing with matching helmets, knee pads, elbow pads, flak jacket, $5,000 souped-up M4 (all paid for by the taxpayer - because all of this is essential equpment in rural Virginia), but when the poop hits the fan, how about grabbing anything that shoots and getting in the fight? Grandpappy's rusty 30-30 and blue jeans would have worked just fine.

To paraphrase the police spokesman 'We did not exchange gunfire with the suspect.' My question - why not?

It is not so much as freedom of the press as much as the press has freedom from responsibility and propriety. None of us would be any less informed if NBC had turned that information over to the police and the network could then provide a summary to the public of what was in the package. There is no need, as StrikeKing points out, to have the families and friends of the victims assualted a second time by having this loser's image shown non-stop on every channel.
One of my law professors used to say "The fact that you have the right to do something does not always mean its right to do it."

The media in this country is repulsive...

truer words have never been spoken

Did you see the reporters interviewing the widow of one of the professors.......outside right after his Funeral, Give the woman a break, she just lost her husband.

I think more people need to go to the "Sean Penn" School of Interviewing Ethics.......and pop these a$$wipes upside the head.

Backto RKBA for a second. There were 75 student firearms in lockup at Virginia Tech Police! God, if just a FEW of them were in the hands of students, what-if?!!!!

Dateline: April 19th, 2007 Washington Township NJ
Contact: Robert Kreisler, President
www.njcsd.org


On behalf of the New Jersey Coalition for Self Defense, and all Americans, we grieve for the souls and families of the victims at Virginia Tech.

Many believe that now is not the time to discuss the failings of "gun control". We disagree. Now is the perfect time, when the fatal failure of the system is staring us in the face.

Americans are increasingly becoming conditioned to believe that our safety is someone else's responsibility. Call 911, find a dark closet to hide in, cover your head and pray that the first person opening the door and finding you there isn't the criminal.

On any given day, there are approximately 75 firearms in the campus lockup checked in by lawful owners, as mandated by Virginia Tech policy. One year ago, a bill was presented in the Virginia legislature to compel the university to allow those licensed owners to carry their sidearms with them to deal with just such a crime. Even one of those guns carried by a student or faculty would have ended this, or at least significantly minimized the carnage.

Those legislators who defeated this bill must be held to account today. They are the ones who insist that police are our protection. We challenge them to explain to the public where the police were this week, and how this result is better than allowing legally licensed gun owners whose firearms were in lockup to be ready to thwart evil.

This is just one more example of what we call the "Sarah Brady Success Story." Anti-gun elements in our nation have been pursuing their failed philosophy for over 40 years. Handgun Control Incorporated refuses to admit that despite four decades – two generations – of failed policy, that gun control is having the exact opposite effect they hope. Yet they will waste no time in the months to come insisting that we need yet more of the same failed policy.

We didn't learn our lesson at Columbine or Lancaster. Japan didn't learn its lesson at Osaka. Russia didn't learn it at Beslan. Germany didn’t learn it at Erfurt. Australia didn’t learn it at Port Arthur. Xerox didn't learn it at Meridien. The list goes on and on. With one exception. Israel learned the lesson firsthand when the PLO targeted primary schools. Their civilians – parents and teachers alike – patrolled the hallways with their sidearms on a voluntary basis, and the attacks stopped.

Americans have been systematically deceived by a slanted press and political movement on a mission. There is an inverse relationship between gun control and its intended result. If one is in an automobile skidding out of control, you turn away from the skid, not into it, to regain control. Likewise, we must, as a nation, turn away from gun control.

Firearms legislation needs to be normalized. Average citizens need to be ready to work in tandem with law enforcement to confront evil and stop it immediately. We need to understand that firearms will never disappear. They are not new technology. Mankind will never lose the recipe for gunpowder, and humans have been sending a projectile through a tube for over 500 years.

Gun control is job security for criminals and a death sentence for Americans.

TDF that just par for the course these days. If she slugged a guy she'd be sued and he would probably file charges. There were three things about this coverage that have set me off (thanks for asking). The first is the rush to judgement on the first day where within hours of the event, prior to any statement by officials, the media are trying to assign blame etc.; the second was the constant identification of the shooter as Asian or Korean. Somewhat correct you could argue. But if it was me and I came over to the US at age 8 would they be saying an Irishman every 5 seconds. The guy lived here for 15 years. To me it is almost like they are pushing the foreign angle to push people's buttons even more. Lastly as we discussed above the release of the videos and pictures. I see mostly Fox and CNN so maybe the coverage was more balanced on the majors but somehow looking at what NBC has done I doubt it.

mosholu they were pushing the foreign angle to put a spotlight on federal gun laws.

non-u.s. citizens can possess firearms under certain circumstances. we have these excpetions because it wouldn't be possible for olympic shooting and similar events to be held here, etc.

the law is complicated, but it reads ... if you are a lawful resident alien with a clean background, you have the same gun rights as a law-abiding citizen.

note that a lawful resident is not the same as a person coming in with a student visa.

anyways, i'm sure there will be calls for closing this "loophole."

haven't watched any of it...

Just movies ...

CNN via PC was more than enough

no slugging... no throwing ice from a drink... :hs: but
i betcha she could have whip creamed him....tho :shocked:
that and his camera lens...

there should be patriotic whip cream in tri-color
(red,white,and blue tipped cans ) that would
be perfect for the job.... :uhuh:

funny that the MSM isn't reporting how disgusted folks are with the news outlets for putting that crap on the air.

all my co-workers want to throw a brick at the tv or computer screen. hard for them to agree on any one thing at any given time but they are unanimous on this one. :exp:

If he had driven a truck into a crowd of people , would we want to take away peoples driving licenses? If it was a chevy truck would we ban chevys? If he had made a bomb like the oklahoma one would we ban the sale of fertilizer?

The guy killed the people , not the gun.

The video is a weird think. there was a time when that would have been kept under wraps so as not to encourage others to do the same. I can just see about a half dozen incidents over the next two years of other nuts encouraged by and mimicing this guys video and actions so that they can be famous for a while too.

NBC got the tape in the mail and handed it right over to the FBI. Then the FBI gives it right back to them.....shouldn't the FBI have kept the tape and told NBC to pound sand....just a thought

Now I am angry at the FBI as well. It still does not get NBC off the hook.

I would have used some sick time after I heard about the first shooting, and if a plane flies into the building next to the one I'm in - I'm going home, regardless of who says it safe to stay...

You can bet your ass NBC made a copy of everything before they called the F.B.I. It might be evidence but it NBC's property until the F.B.I. seizes it.

To me a statement that ranks in the category of a manifesto has to be coherrent and well-written. Fom what I have heard its just the insane immature rantings of a very sick kid.

At least he saved everyone a trial.

You can bet your ass NBC made a copy of everything before they called the F.B.I.
The President of NBC stated they did when it was released to the FBI.

-spence

non-u.s. citizens can possess firearms under certain circumstances. we have these excpetions because it wouldn't be possible for olympic shooting and similar events to be held here, etc.

He wasn't a foreigner though....

Xenophobia go!

not sure i understand your point, likwid.

the shooter wasn't a u.s. citizen but at the same time we haven't really seen any palpable backlash against foreigners or foreign looking folks.

correct me if i'm wrong ?

Seung Hui Cho, a permanent resident of the United States, a Korean national and a Virginia Tech student has been identified as the gunman in the shootings that left 33 people dead on the Virginia Tech campus Monday, ABC News has learned.

yeah, so , i made that distinction already.

permanent residents can buy guns here.

visa holders can't.

a lot of permanent residents serve in the armed forces and pay taxes even though they can't vote.

so?

Just making sure the bandwagon rolls into the river here.

Also NBC made copies of everything before giving it to the FBI.
Thanks NBC, I'm glad you care more about money and ratings than real life people.

I'm sure some kid somewhere out there saw that and said "yeah, I can relate, I can do that too." :doh:

...
Thanks NBC, I'm glad you care more about money and ratings than real life people.

I'm sure some kid somewhere out there saw that and said "yeah, I can relate, I can do that too." :doh:

Don't get me started, man.

Anyhoo, this is what it is all about. From Drudge:

RATINGS BLOWOUT FOR NBC NEWS...
7.4 RATING/15 SHARE FOR BRIAN WILLIAMS AND CHO TAPES, NIELSEN OVERNIGHTS SHOW...
6.2/12 FOR ABC 'WORLD NEWS'...
CBS COURIC AT 4.2/8...

Ratings to NBC: STFU already.

Seung Hui Cho, a permanent resident of the United States, a Korean national and a Virginia Tech student has been identified as the gunman in the shootings that left 33 people dead on the Virginia Tech campus Monday, ABC News has learned.
The correct term is "PERMANENT RESIDENT ALIEN", not permanent resident. I know, I WAS one, until I was naturalized , thereby becoming a US Citizen. Either the source you copied that from got it wrong or it was deleted along the way, unless they did away with the dirty "alien" word already(enter sarchastic smilie here), which Im not aware of.

And I agree, the blood of every person that is killed by every copycat in the next couple months, will be on NBC's FILTHY hands. IF it happens I hope the execs at NBC go straight to hell.

Aren't these the same idiots who fired Imus?

With a backlash developing against the media, Fox News said it would stop running the pictures, and other networks said they would severely limit their use.

"It has value as breaking news," said ABC News spokesman Jeffrey Schneider, "but then becomes practically pornographic as it is just repeated ad nauseam."

i sent them all negative feedback....
as i'm sure many others did....

enough was enough of the cho boy

likwid, imus and psycho cho make sense from a biz perspective.

1) imus = advertisers threaten to leave. defensible biz practice to toss him.

2) psycho cho = good for short-term ratings = advertisers happy. i think.

:splat:

2) psycho cho = good for short-term ratings = advertisers happy. i think.

My Reuters buddy said that the ratings never spiked.
They just up and failed.

Imus coverage had better ratings.

I thought CBS fired Imus

busts some dudes ripping her off
and shoots out their tire
then calls the cops

she might have died without her gun!

http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/us/2007/04/22/intv.venus.ramey.affl