http://www.mvgazette.com/news/2002/08/02/striped_bass_season.php

I wish they would just shut it down all together......

"Mr. Larsen said if the state were to set a limit of 20 fish per boat instead of 40, the quota wouldn't be taken so quickly."----------------------I'd even like to see it dropped to 10. And how about only giving MA residents MA licenses! I've heard almost half the fish sold come from out of state. Doesn't really make sense

what do you think the average price per pound was? (ball park)

How many commerical SB MA lic's were sold do you think?

Saw it retailing for $8.99/pound on the Cape last week....not sure what that means for the wholesale price but my guess is no more than $5/pound.

Blitz - figure under $2 per pound is accurate while open.

I am guessing but lets say 1000 lic's are sold @ 25 bucks per...that is 25K of rev for the state. It probably cost more to do the admin. then these fees produce.

802K lbs probably sold for about 3 bucks /lb which is $2.4 mil. Divide that by the 1000 lic and you get $2400 per lic. IMO the damage cause to the fishery is far greater then the palutry revs and fees this fisher produces. The fisherman probaly spent half that in fuel bait and boat related costs. Sure I am sure a few guys made out big but what is the point????

As much as I dispise selling this fish, next year I may just do it and fish my ass off just to see how much I could $ make and then write a newspaper piece pointing out that this activity does more harm then good and produces little rev/man and no significant rev for the state.

BTW, when was the last time you took 40 big bass in a night? What is wierd about this law IMO is that for 25 bucks I can take 40 fish in a day, for no lic I can take 1. huh? I spend more then 25 bucks in plugs alone for a friday night at the tackle shop. Here is your measly 25 bucks! How many guys take the fish home or sell on a black market?

Make the fee several thousand dollars not some lame-o amount that will invite anyone who wants to take more then one fish to pay 25 bucks. The people in charge are swayed by the commerical people BECAUSE THEY PAY LIC FEES AND THEY THINK BECAUSE THEY PAY THE FEE THEY OWN THE RIGHTS TO THE FISHERY AND THE PEOPLE THAT MAKE THE LAWS GOVERNING IT.

Better yet...Just shut it down and take the $ off the fish's head. Such a grand fish with a dramatic past to see it exploited like this for a couple grand...if that.

Actually, due to the inexpensive license, the number of commercials out there is probably even greater than you think. On the bright side, Mr Murphy says fishing should improve greatly now that the commercial season is over.

And at the same time, the sale price of fish keeps the number of commercial striper fishers down.

Nobody wants to be pulling 2 or 3 bucks a pound for 40 fish in one night.

Been commercial tuna fishing for a couple years now, and it when it comes down to the end of the season up here, you're in reality not doing so well as non-commercial people would like think.

You almost need to be out every damn day working your ass off fishing to make real money.


If you want a real experience and an opportunity to badmouth commercial fisheries, go out on a commercial lobster boat for a run some time.

Its far more work than you can ever imagine. Yeah, they have haulers, but they don't take lobster out, gauge them, throw them in the bin or over the side, rebait, and get set to reset. Then repeat 200 more times. And never mind doing this during the winter, or dealing with conger eels, sandsharks and whatever else just happens to meander into your traps.

$2400 average per person on bass isn't much for the season, do some random figures on fuel costs, bait costs, time cost, etc. and you'll see the majority was under for the season.

Now I'll guarantee that nobody was fishing stripers exclusively commercially, if they were, well then, they're pretty damn stupid at those figures.

Cheers
Ted

We could debate this in circles for months! First I don't think it is about the revenues generated for the state. It's all about what the "experts" decide is a sustainable yield. If you really want to get riled up look into what goes on in Virginia. People like to eat fish, hence a very, very small commercial striped bass fishery. Where do you draw the line? Ban the taking of baitfish for recreational use (artificials work almost as good)? Why not just ban recreational fishing altogether?Ban those plugs with multiple treble hooks? I'd be willing to bet more bass are killed by recreational fishermen than the very limited commercial quota. There's a group in Maryland that wants to ban chumming in the Chesepeake Bay. Their claim is that it pollutes the water! Meanwhile this group trolls for 8 hours a day. Maryland also has a saltwater license. Maybe they will use these funds to figure out which pollutes the water more!
So is it the selling of fish you despise, or just the sale of striped bass? Like I said, where do you draw the line?

John-

You math sounds right. If it is selling for $8.99/lb at the fish market, then my guess is that it wholesales for ~$4.50/lb. The wholesaler is therefore paying the commercial fisherman who makes the catch $2.25/lb or less.

Even at that price, you can see why guys do it. If you've already bought all your gear like all of us, and are going fishing anyway, most of your costs are sunk except the license. Most of us with any sort of clue about striper fishing could clear the cost of the license with no problem at all.

What a waste, though. It's just not for me.

Korey

Just re-reading....if the license is really only $25 then most of us could clear the cost of that the first night!

Mr Sandman,

Here are some facts

1st to commercial fish you need a general commercial licence whic costs from 35 for an individual (all on the boat of in your vehicle if fishing from shore must have the lic.) all the way up to hundreds of dollars to lic your boat as commercial......next you need to get a striped bass license for 30. You may only fish Rod & reel in Ma. We keep it that way because we do not want a more standard commercial fishery with very valuable limited licenses and a "real" business value on the fishery. Rod & Reel commercials are far more ethical (in general) and SB Commercial fishing with Rod & Reel is a traditional Ma culture.

Next, the average price this year was $2, and it never hit $3, even at the Gloucester Fish Auction that traditionaly brings the very best prices.

SB are sold to the dealers wholesale and the standard return for meat of a SB is 40 percent of the whole...meaning 100 pounds of whole SB return 40 pounds of meat.

Most of the Commercial SB fishers want the quota to end b4 the Fall migration begins so we leave those fish alone

One of the main reasons there is a Commercial market is because the General Public owns the resource not the recreational fishing Public. This is why there is room allocated for a commercial fishery...I am proud of the way Ma runs their SB Fishery...it is not perfect but it is better than any other state that I have read about

the current quota of 750,000 pounds (overage and shortfalls are tagged onto the next year) (not done in other states) has been working through out the rebuilding process...I used to be in favor of making SB a gamefish, but that means no one gets to harvest SB and sorry, they are too good on the table.

You sit here and talk about 'clearing costs' first night etc.

But in reality, yeah, your rods, your boat are already sunk, but why don't we take it from a reality level, fuel etc.

Do you know your "super secret hotspot" is going to be hot every night to pay for fuel, bait, and TIME? No. You don't.

And as far as DMF goes, why don't you check them out instead of bashing on how much fish they take?

Do you get their newsletters?

Do you talk to the DMF people?

The typical answer is no.

little do you really know/////////////
the real good commercial guys do very well
there are more fish in mass Than I ever thought possible, most shore fisherman don.t see it neither does the weekend troller
some of you would be shocked to see the fish that come in day after day from the same fisherman, do some math and they make big money/////////////

I,m not getting into a pissin match with anybody,but what bothers me is every state plays with a differert set of rules

some states ---no sales,other 40 per boat,others 4 per man
then different sizes---- traps smaller fish
maryland /virginia hammer the real small fish

it should be that we all play with the same cards

we are throwing fish back that others are selling.at least 30 years ago we all had the same rules,except maryland,again with being allowed to sell very small fish

just my 2 cents ,been in the house too long///////////////// :smash: :smash:

Sometime if you get the chance ask someone from the dmf[mass] how many lb's of sb do the rec. fisher's take vs. the HOOK & LINE com. take. I was told the rec.'s take about THREE time's that of the com. guy's.............think about it.............now who's killing all the fish?..............this info. come's right from the horse's mouth. I'm just passing it along.

Ahh, we haven't had a good & lively rec -v- comm debate in a little while :D ...

There are 2 primary arguments in favor of the commercial fishing of striped bass in Mass: 1 - the desire of commercial fishermen to make money on them and 2 - the demand of a market place for them in restaraunts and at the market (OK, I'll give you 3 - the commercial guys like usually like fishing for them too and many would still chase them if there was no monetary reward).

The rec anglers far outweigh the comms in numbers of people, in money generated for the local economy - (not even including the charters) through everything from tourism to purchasing and maintaining boats, buying tackle, and even the odd website (although we ain't makin' any money here :eek5: :p ). And it is an often serious, even evangelical pursuit by those of us recs that fish for them. Many of us arrange significant parts of our lives around fishing for stripers to extract what we do in quality of life and hapiness (or sickness depending on point of view). Also, many people use it as a small and for some, a larger portion of our diet.

So who should have more of a claim to a sustainable percentage of the fish? I'd say the largest group should have the largest access to the fish (and currently does). In my opinion, that doesn't mean to cut off the commercial guy at his knees. But to allow a sensible allocation of fish and a strong penalty for abusing the rules. That penalty should apply to both recs & comms that break the rules too (although that should be another thread).

The thing that peesses me off the most about the commercial fishing is the bag limit. You get a decent group of boats hammering 40 decent fish per day, day in and day out, you make a lousy price for the fish. Supply & demand. I see someone getting 1.65 a pound because the market is flooded a bit of a waste when less of a glut of fish might yield better prices and reduced pressure on the fish. The recs already give a reduced pressure on the fish because we are held at one per day instead of two in a slot or two over say 34 inches per day. Mass's DMF "Voluntarily" restricts the amount of fish the rec anglers can have to less than what we are alotted by the ASMFC. A couple years ago when everyone freaked that coast wide, the recs would have to give back some of their allocation, Mass wouldn't have needed to as it already had reduced the rec take to lower levels than what was required. Just recently when DMF dangled an extra fish in front of us recs and had us salivating - they also danglend an extra hundred something thousand pounds for commercial too.

Clammer - you're correct....

CS - the number of recs killing 3x as many fish through C&R mortality and throwing some meet on the dinner table (and thru pure stupidity) is probably fifty or maybe a hundred times the number of ACTIVE commercial fishing guys - not the guys that have the bass endorsement on their license but the ones that actually bring more than a couple per year to the market. I'd say the large populace should generally outweigh the small # of commercial BASS guys.

Likwid - what do you mean? Just some clarification... And as far as DMF goes, why don't you check them out instead of bashing on how much fish they take?


OK - enough for right now....

I like my lobster cold , some like it hot , that's what make's the world go round. The thing's I've heard an seen goin on at the shore front. Thing's will never change when people an money are involved........an politics too................let's kiss an make up an go fishin. life's to short.

John: alot of people go through their lives thinking that DMF is only there for the commercial fishermen, when infact they see everyone's needs and takes them all with a grain of salt before they make their decisions.

All of the guys that I know who work for DMF have all been part of both groups at one point or another (duh) for quite some time now, and really know how it works.

A prime example of bagging on DMF are alot of these *wildlife protection groups* who manage to do more harm than good. But hey, they see the world in their own light.

I don't know of any decisions made by them that I wouldn't agree with concerning both commercial or rec fishing, they've been there, they know the deal, they know how to act accordingly.

And is there any way for the email notification thing to be set to default off? It's really annoying. :smash:

This has been an interesting season. Due to the warm water most of the shore based comms I know have done very poorly.

If the info I got was correct, the majority of the fish brought to market this year were taken far offshore in the EEZ. Funny thing is its illegal to fish there for striped bass.

I think there may be some basis to these claims since some of the comms, who actually depend on fishing to make a living, are proposing that the comm limit be dropped from 40 fish a day to 20 or 25. This is to make it less profitable for the boats that illegally fish the EEZ. Many of the Cod comms, because of the recent restriction squeezes, re-outfitted and are now targetting stripers, at least for the open season.

Another annoyance for the person making his living commercial fishing, is the growing number of casual comms. The guys who are teachers who the summers off or guys who take a months vacation and casually comm fish. These guys aren't doing it for a living, they are just trying to have fun and suppliment the cost of the trip by selling stripers.

Also many of the guys comm fishing off of MA are from NJ, NY, CT, RI and even VT. The difference in cost between the resident licencse and non-resident license is far too small in my opinion.

If I go duck hunting in Maine or some other nearby state I expect to pay 4 or 5 times as much for a license as the residents. Why do out of state comms get MA licenses for around twice the cost of a MA resident comm license.

Just a few points to ponder.

Likwid - I realize that DMF is good for all and that certain amounts of their commercial license receipts also get applied for Federal Rec matching dollars. I also understand that they are even better towards rec interests now under Diodati than they were under Coates. Diodati has a better definition of "Fair" in my mind and the minds of many anglers. So I won't knock DMF too hard.

Historically, they have been far more commercial bent but now they are more balanced.

And yes, the ultra radical wildlife protection groups are a real problem. They want to deny everyone access, shore, boat, you name it. If they can't close an area, close the parking. To hell with the traditional groups that want to access the resource for whatever reason. Example - The Mass Audobon has that land on Cutty that effectively shuts down access for the historical shore fisherman on the west end of the island unless you walk the rocky beach...

And is there any way for the email notification thing to be set to default off? It's really annoying. In you User Control Panel (user cp), under "edit options" is a selection for "Use email notification by default". You had it on, I turned it off for you. If it happens again, just check that setting....

Mike - if they are in the EEZ - they SHOULD be caught and fined. If it's anyone, comm or rec, they should pay for it. That's one reason some had a strong push last year to open up the EEZ to recs & comms, to make it "legit". And yes, there should be a costlier license for non-residents and probably a more limited entry into the fishery too.

Thanks for turning off the e-mail notification...

And on Cuttyhunk, I've dragged quite a few cow bass (with much grumbling) back up the road around the island, or back up the trails past where the windmilll was, and never had anyone say a word to me, except ask what I caught the fish on....

*shrug*

Good to see that some groups can't attempt to rule over places with an iron fist like they'd like to. But I think the islanders/old charter boys have a bit more say around there than the Audubon will ever have...

Also if you've ever been the to Audubon sanctuary off 6 down on the cape and walked out to the flats... that place just oozes incredible fly fishing....

What I'd give to spend a few weeks down there with the fly rod this time of year on some warm days....

The issue is mainly about money and who benifits, not fish. Thats the problem.

1) The argument that "it is a tradition to comm fish for SB" really pushes my button. Give me a break! Sorry, commerical fisherman do not have some God given right to take whatever they want. You want tradition, there was a time when striped bass and even lobster were considered a trash-fish and no one wanted them. Times change, get over it. The picture below was tradition too. It is long overdue to end it.

2) Serious Cost-benifit analysis have shown, the public benifits far more from rec fisherman vs commerical. The amount of money that rec fisherman spend on boats, motors, gear and charter fees dwarfs the entire commerical industry. The funny thing is the commerical guys love to say..rec 's take 3x more the commerical....when you figure out how many fish per rec is actually taken....it is something like < 1 fish per man per year (I can't recall the exact # but it is very small). There are just millions of fisherman. (most don't catch ANY bass in a year) In order to catch that 1 fish, the fisherman spends in some cases thousands each year that support working men and their familys in the boating and fishing industries. The simple difference is rec fishing supports 100's of thouasnds of people in diverse businesses while commercial sb fishing is all about cataching as many fish as fast as you can for $$ that supports the greedy few.

3) Commerical Lic fees are a complete joke it may as well be a free-for-all. They need to add a few more zeros on the end of those fees.

4) The $/lb is a joke too. Why do you even bother? if you say the price was 2 bucks/lb then only $1.6 mill were taken for the 802K lbs. And if you say there are that many lic's the $/fisherman is really a minimum. The bottom line is that the bulk of the 1.6million is headed to the pockets of a few big guns. This is doing little for socity and doing harm to the fish.

5)commerical fishing is all about $, that is why they call it "commerical". Greed also plays a big part in the activity. The "its mine" attitude has got to stop. During the days of no sb fishing...the gerneral fishing industry survived. You simply don't NEED the striped bass as a commerical fish. The reason there are so many fish today ...is BECAUSE THERE WERE RESTRICTIONS IN YEARS PAST. I just don't buy the fact the rec fishing does nearly the damage.. how exactly do you estimate the rec catch? How much $ and time does the average rec fisherman spend fishing to catch a single fish?


I do agree with the commerical guys that the state by state regs differ and it is unfair to those who do conserve. But the goal is not to catch the fish here so the "other guys" in other states can't. The Fed's are not going to get involved, it is a state matter and we are going to have to live with it.

The goal is to preserve the fishery while getting as much public benifit as possible from the fish that ARE taken. Commerical sb fishing does neither.

Last year I think I took home maybe 5 bass all year. The amount I caught was maybe 8-10X that many. And I fished a lot by rec standards. I bet I spent 5-7K on fishing realted activitys last year. (boat expenses, fuel, hotels, food/resturants/ tackle, a couple charter trips ect) . Now lets assume the you stop all sb fishing. Who feel pain more, the thousands of people supporting the rec industry, or the commerical guy who can fish for alternate fish? BTW, what is the commerical guy doing now? Is he starving? Come on, this is a no-brainer. These commerical guys are like dealing with a truckers union. They think they own the road.




Oh what the hell.......
If you can't beat-em join-em: Since the lic fee is a complete non-issue, next season I plan to get a commerical sb lic and I urge all out you "sport" guys who want to take all you can to do the same . IMO, this is nothting more then a cheap workaround to current catch limits. You can read about my experience next season at this time.

I have said enough on this topic. (EOM)

One of the problems is the number of casual coms who get the license so they can keep the commercial limit of forty fish but sell none. It all goes in their own freezers and never gets counted towards the quota. I bet twice as much fish gets caught and not counted this way in MA as gets caught and sold and counted. The problem is even worse with Fluke and Tog. The guys I know who buy the license are after Fluke and tog for their freexers. None gets counted towards a commercial quota even though they catch to the commercial limit. . They only chase stripers when the fluke and tog are closed. Its all legal so i don't blame them for obeying the law to their own benefit. Lots of loopholes in the law like this need to be closed.

Just to make it clear , I'm not against commercial fishing at all. Whatever the law allows , I think the people should maximize their catch. I'm just against the loopholes that allow overfishing above the annual quotas.

That Picture is famous. Its a still pic from a series of pics. After the pickup is full , they leave the rest on the beach to rot. I've seen the whole sequence and it'll make you sick to see more left behind than taken to market.

To be fair , its an old pic. I doubt anyone would do that anymore.

You have to remember when you look at pictures like that from the heydey of fishing...

My dad used to go out when i was about 4 or 5 for a few hours in fall and fill a trash barrel to overflowing in the Mackenzie with codfish just outside of Plymouth Harbor and that'd be it for the rest of the winter... (Boy was that a happy Siberian Shepherd we had getting all those Cod bodies to chow on)

I'd like to see one person do that today...

We've learned from our mistakes and I don't expect that would ever happen again...

And if it did, I'm sure who did it would be caught and hung by all of us for that matter :smash: :smash: :smash:

Originally posted by BasicPatrick
1st to commercial fish you need a general commercial licence whic costs from 35 for an individual (all on the boat of in your vehicle if fishing from shore must have the lic.) all the way up to hundreds of dollars to lic your boat as commercial......next you need to get a striped bass license for 30.

BP,

Am I reading your post correctly?

For as little as $65/year, I can call myself a commercial fisherman and take up to 40 SB/day, while traditional recreational fishermen may only take 1/day, albeit smaller.

If this is the case, it sounds like I can get a comm license and then decide to fill my own freezer with SB as well as the freezer of my family and neighbors rather than sell them to strangers.

If this is true then I don't think it is a far stretch to basically consider the SB comm license as a defacto recreational saltwater fishing license. Afterall, the above scenario is what I do when I go cod fishing. Seems like the only difference is that the state has its hand out when fishing for SB but not other species.

For good or ill, the concensus seems to be that there is squat money to be made selling SB. Economically speaking this is either because there is too much supply driving the price down OR there is not enough demand to support a higher price. It seems clear that the problem here is really on the DEMAND side. I say this because otherwise, there would be some sort of outcry not to shutdown the comm season tomorrow because businesses (restaurants, grocers, etc) would be significanty hurt.



Also, when comm fishing from boat, does the boat need to be commercially "licensed" as well?

Finally, how does it work if I had a comm license with a SB endorsement and then I went fishing on a boat (see above) with some friends that weren't licensed commercially. Could I personally still take 40 SB/day or would the fact that I am with non-comms preclude me from fishing commercially.


Mike

So, getting a commercial license to fish recreationally just to take more fish...

Does that make you justified? Or just greedy?

The ONLY fish that fills my freezer if fresh tuna, and thats given away/consumed rather quickly.

And I spend a hell of alot more time/effort/money than it takes to fish stripers...

I'm sorry, but I don't need to have a freezer packed with fish all winter to live just because the opportunity to do so is there.


(note: my father did the cod because of money concerns at the time... it was a cheap way to have food on the table)

Likwid, I plan to put more cod in the freezer because I allready buy alot for my family to eat, but within the rec limits...

Flatts - I think you were too litteral there, the commercial license is for fish that legally must be sold at the market, not for keeps. As for license in a boat, I think everyone fishing needs the license but there is still a limit of 40 per boat.

For good or ill, the concensus seems to be that there is squat money to be made selling SB. Economically speaking this is either because there is too much supply driving the price down OR there is not enough demand to support a higher price. It seems clear that the problem here is really on the DEMAND side. I say this because otherwise, there would be some sort of outcry not to shutdown the comm season tomorrow because businesses (restaurants, grocers, etc) would be significanty hurt. I don't think ANY commercial fisherman can make any kind of a living fishing for stripers, not in New England. Many of these people would ordinarily fish for something else concurrent with fishing for bass or for some species at different times of the year. There is also a lot of people that get the license to offset their fishing costs (which only go up if they're trying to get a bunch of fish) and others get a license, even though they don't sell fish, to prove they are a traditional license holder in case licenses are no longer offered or are curtailed. I'm not sure but I think that already you need to have already had a striped bass comm license in order to get one - Anyone know if new people were still able to apply and receive licenses this year?

Originally posted by likwid

The ONLY fish that fills my freezer if fresh tuna, and thats given away/consumed rather quickly.


likwid,

The Cod I mentioned goes rather quickly too. Not to brag but everyone loves my chowder. Come to one of my MSBA pregame BBQs and you will see why - because I serve it there sometimes (guess my guests are greedy too).

How is your stocking up of Tuna any different than my stocking up of Cod. Isn't that just being wee bit hypocritical.

To each his own.

Peace,
Mike

Saltheart I beg to differ about the people catching and keeping 40 stripers, and then not selling them. When I went out with Gary Corsetti there were at least 10-15 other boats out there with us. Not one of those boats caught 1/20th the amount of fish we caught. Also every fish we caught was a commercial keeper except maybe 2. Most people out there on boats don't catch near the amount of quality fish that commercial guys catch. The only exception is a person who was a former commercial and is a recreational or charter guy. The guys with boats either catch alot of mid or small sized fish, or tons of schoolies, or a couple of fish. Read all the reports from the people on this site, see how many are catching 40+ 36" fish in a trip. The commercial rod and reel guys are not hurting the striped bass any more than the recs are. The guys that are killing the stripers are the draggers, and the guys down south. I don't begrudge these rod and reel commercials one bit.

Check out the restrictions on commercially fishing Bluefin Tuna

One fish per day

That is all....

Its totally hit or miss, with how much of a fight you have with a good sized Bluefin... you could end up with a 300-400lb fish (still decent money... but nowhere what a giant nets you) or an 800lb fish...

Complete and total crapshoot 100% of the time...

you can now take 2 BFT a day according to.....NMFS INCREASES GENERAL CATEGORY DAILY RETENTION LIMIT FOR ATLANTIC BLUEFIN TUNA
General category landings rates have been slow to date in the Atlantic bluefin tuna (BFT) fishery. Based on a review of dealer reports, daily landing trends, and the availability of BFT on the fishing grounds, NMFS has determined that an increase in the daily retention limit in the General category is necessary in order to allow full use of the June through August subquota. Therefore, NMFS adjusts the daily retention limit for the remainder of the June through August time-period to two large medium or giant BFT per vessel. The increase in the daily retention limit is effective July 18 through August 31. The daily retention limit will revert back to one large medium or giant BFT for the September subquota. NMFS will closely monitor catch rates relative to the available subperiod quota and may make adjustments to the restricted fishing day (RFD) schedule or daily retention limit in order to avoid premature closure of the General category fishery. This adjustment does not affect the proposed scheduled RFDs for August (August 10, 11, and 12), on which the daily retention in the General category would be zero, and on which General category vessels would not be allowed to fish for BFT. The intent of this adjustment is to allow for maximum utilization of the June through August subquota by General category participants in order to help achieve optimum yield in the General category fishery, to collect a broad range of data for stock monitoring purposes, and to be consistent with the objectives of the HMS FMP.

\\


CIRCLES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:smash: :smash:




I know for a fact that there are guys making more money in the 5 weeks mass is open than alot of people make for total income for the year

over 3000 licenses issud this year

thats not the problem///////////
AS I stated brfore,nothing is constant,every state has a different season,sizese,set of laws
Things won.t change until fishing sucks again
:laughs: :laughs: :laughs: :laughs: :laughs: :laughs:

Specialist , sorry if i was unclear. I didn't intend to say they did catch the 40 limit. I wanted to say they get the license so they can legally catch up to that if they get lucky instead of abiding by the 1 per day rec limit. I agree few get 40 fish a day. Besides , The best com guys who have spots that will sometimes yield 40 per day would never fish those spots in daylight where a fleet of 15 other boats could see them anyway.

Saltheart - they're at those spots during the day & night...

#1...rod & reel lisc. $25.00

#2. sb lisc. $30.00

if your fishing in your boat ,NO wife,kids, or others are to be on that boat,if you are com. fishing for sb. .......if they are that com. lisc. holder can have only 1 sb on that boat per person, but if you buy a boat lisc. for $160.00 , all are covered.

what most people don't understand is ,if you have a com. lisc...............ALL your fishing gear is tax deductable, as long as you show some sort of income, even if you only make a $100.00 an have spent $6,000.00 ........boat.motor. gas.r/reels ,hook.line & sinker......................tools of the trade .

Ok,

I'm gonna stay in this one....

1st...Individual Commercial Lic is $35 not $25 but still is cheap

2nd...for those that are suggesting that getting sb commercial lic is a way to take more than the rec limit are leaving out the fact that if you take more than your rec limit under a com lic and do not sell the fish you are in violation of both Federal and State laws...yes their are cheaters in every group, however to indite a whole sector in this way is just wrong....especially when it is those making the aformentioned arguement that casually suggests breaking the law

3rd... Any commercial Rod & reel fisher has to show a prophit within any 3 year period or they can not take any deductions

4th...Yes, new commercial licenses for SB were issued this year

5th...Many on this list are missing the point that at least in MA the SB commercial fishery is geared so that it does not become a mainstreeam commercial fishery....the thought is that mosty recs will care about the fishery as opposed to what we have seen in more mainstream commercial fisheries

6th...I go to almost all of the DMf, NEFMC and this summer am adding the ASMFC meetings...very few recs attend, but the officers of some of the largest clubs & conservation organizations that attend almost all have one thing in common...most do some Rod & Reel Commercial Fishing...isn't it funny that just that the guys who are getting slammed by some o this list for haveing SB Commercial licenses are the same ones who will be representing a lot of the same people who would rather complain than show up and join the process...facts are getting thrown around this thread that are so off it is is a shame ....example coming

7th...Sb allocation is not just a state to state thing..that statement is not only ignorant it is down right scary considering we are weeks away from the public hearings that will determing the overall Sb management plan for the entire east coast...people should really start learning... then and only then will recs get the voice that they truely deserve

now go ahead ...slam me...just show up on monday or tuesday night at the SB hearings and put your actions where your kleyboards are

I admit I have not been to a meeting in years and I have no plans on ever attending again. They are commerical fishing baised,like you said, even the rec's are commerical for 5 weeks...yeah thats fair. Back in the "old days" when we had no striped bass to speak of and there were real problems, I attended in RI and now and then on the cape and CT . Rec's were there in force. I remember lots of screaming and yelling and even fights in the parking lots...thats why I stopped going. It was just an ugly mob scene at times. Rec's wanted to shut it down...who was doing the yelling to keep the commerical activity open....give me a break You guys wanted to fish it to the death until you got the last one.

You can spin this anyway you like but IT IS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY and not the FISH.

I am sick of it. The lic fees are a complete and utter joke. Any tom #^&#^&#^&#^& or harry with a boston whaler can affort your measly 160 bucks, get the deduction (there are ways to keep this going forever, just like every other business that looses money on paper) and then he could fish his brains out.

There should be NO SUCH THING as a 5 week commerical fisherman. If you don't make a year round living from commerical fishing you should not be able to get a the sb license. This is a sham. It draws in rec's with the lure of $ and tax savings on fishing gear boats and fuel to expand the commerical fishing season. I hope the IRS cracks down on this. Frankly I think you have to pro-rate the time your equipment is used for commerical fishing ....like the mixed use of a business car. If your fishing only 5/52 weeks per year your tax deduction is lame.

Fishing for striped bass should not be subsidized by the gov't or done for profit, that is not what fishing for bass is about. Just because you did it in the past does NOT mean you have the right to do it now. It should be made a game fish. Frankly IMO there should be NO commerical fishing for anything within 10 miles of any land. ALL inshore fish should be protected from commerical fishing. Inshore fishing by its very nature is a recreation activity for the entire public not to be exploited by a few for personal gain.

As I said before, since it is so easy and so cheap to obtain some licence to exploit the fishery, everyone should do it to make the point that the system is flawed. I mean it, next season I am out there and I will catch what I can until the season is shut down. You will be reading my dairy in a national newspaper. This activity will stop.:af: You commerical fish this fish, you will wipe it out again, and the really sad part is that the commerical guys will blame it on the rec's. The fish count is down last year and you want to increase your take this year. Tell me there is no greed and it is not about the $....

I will admit a lot of figures (probably most of which are wrong) are tossed about. On reason it is difficult to get the real facts.

Here are a few fact links...

http://www.asmfc.org/Programs/Fish%20Mgnt/Annual%20regs/2001%20Striped%20Bass%20Regs.pdf

http://www.mde.state.md.us/enpa/1999_enpa/envi_indicators/htms/d5_gr.htm


Yes that picture was old but Haul-seine and gill netting still goes on today...although it is regulated. Everyone knows it wrong and should be shut down altogether but no one has the nads to do it.
MA is only a small part of the problem. look at the take for MD.
There are Differences state to state.

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/fisheries/commercial/harvestmonitoring.html

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/fisheries/commercial/seasonsquotas.htm

an interesting has both sides:
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-striper-bass513.story


Look, I don't like fighting about this I would rather fish. I don't have the time nor the desire to go to some meeting with a bunch of guys to argue about this. There is just no good reason to fish for this thing on a commerical scale. (besides money...and THAT is a shame) .

Responding to Patrick:

1.) OK

2.) (More for Flatts) It is entirely illegal NOT to sell the fish you catch when commercial fishing for stripers. All fish caught MUST go to an authorized market. If you're good enough to catch 20 or 40 keepers in just one day, as a rec, you couldn't fit them in your freezer anyway. If anyone is considering poaching bass...

3) Good to know

4) Pat - grins & giggles - know how many off the top of your head?

5) the thought is that mosty recs will care about the fishery as opposed to what we have seen in more mainstream commercial fisheries Pat, do you mean that recs that are comm SB license holders will care more than comm fisherman that are not traditionally a "rec" fisherman (I probably coulda used better wording but I have a headache)?

6) I have gone to a couple meetings that had a segment on striped bass(not in the last 2 years) and yes, there were hardly any recreational anglers there. Far more showed in Rhody meetings than the 1 Mass meeting I had been to (several years ago - hard to go to meetings when I hardly get out to fish :( ).

7) Patrick - I lost you there, what are you refering too?

Here is the link to the meetings Patrick is referring to:

http://www.state.ma.us/dfwele/dmf/MarineFisheriesNotices/aug_public_hearings.pdf

Originally posted by John R

2.) (More for Flatts) It is entirely illegal NOT to sell the fish you catch when commercial fishing for stripers. All fish caught MUST go to an authorized market. If you're good enough to catch 20 or 40 keepers in just one day, as a rec, you couldn't fit them in your freezer anyway. If anyone is considering poaching bass...


John,

I was playing devil's advocate. I actually agree pretty much with what Sandman just posted.

I posed the scenario to ask for clarification because before you mentioned that all comm caught fish had to be sold, it did seem much too easy to just buy a cheap comm license in order to simply take more fish. In other words it seemed more like a scam that the state was running in order to charge anglers in order to take more fish (which the state doesn't stock so why charge). If comms MUST sell the fish then this is not the case.

Personally, I find that saltwater fishing is feast or famine. It would be nice to take more than 1 fish when things are good (even if it is just 2 like RI, or ME) to make up for all those days I get skunked.

Mike

Saltheart I get what you are saying. IMO if someone really wanted to take more than their limit, they will commercial permit or not. The odds of getting caught are slim.

John,

Iwas saying that SB management is not just a State to State issue, as a matter of fact it is much more a Regional Issue. The leading Bopdy when it comes to SB Mgmt is the Atlantic ststes Marine Fisheries Comission (ASMFC). This body makes the overall plan for SB throughout the whole east coast. Then, each individual State can define it's regs that MUST comply with the overall plan. Some States use every last SB they are allowed to manage. MA has traditionally set its own regs more restrictive then the ASMFC plan. This is why MA is still at 1 Fish. This being said now let's move onto coming hearings.

There are two different management plans coming to Public Hearings this Summer. The first set coming is the proposed changes to the MA regs. these two hearings and the ongoing Public Comment period are this coming Monday and Tuesday. The second set of Hearings and Public Comment time is the ASMFC Ammendment 6 to the Striped bass Management Plan. This ammendment will have multiple options and is a developing plan in its last stages (time for the Public to step up and take a look.

My comment that you referred to is that VERY FEW who consider themselves in the know have any idea what is going on with regards to ASMFC. This is a very sad comment. This is why Recs get the short end when it comes to Fisheries Management in general. Without trying to be attacking, Mr Sandman can wax poetic about his plan to Comm Fish next year and write about it but in the long run it will not mean a thing with regard to affecting any kind of change. I give the example of the discovery magazine expose on Menhaden fishing along the east coast. That was the most devistating info I have read in a long time but recs get upset after the fact and missed the boat on that one in general. In the end some stopgap measures were enacted but real reform in that Fishery has and is not coming. Back to SB

As long as the Rec sector want to go off on some sort of dramatic tangent instead of showing up, joining the process, and committing to management issues long term, we lose. I know that RFA, CCA, MSBA and possibly a few others will deliver their Public commets at the MA hearings next week, but without calls, letters and bodies to show that the elected Officers of these Organizations are truely standing for their constituents. We need opinionated people like sandman to show up and get involved. I am saddened when I see the wasted energy used in heated discussions and general sweeping accusations. Childish Dramatic Rants have never worked, ever. I hope people show up and get involved.
My dad taught me something when I was young, "I got no right to bitch if I do not vote" I have never missed and election, not even a town election since I became of age.

Mr Sandman,

The following is my schedule for tomorrow.

5am Wake up and get moving...6am Meet Beetle and drive to the North Shore (Everett & Plum Island) to deliver & pick-up MSBA Charity Tournament stuff...9:30 am Meet Legislative Chair for the RFA Mike Doebley in Wouburn for Breakfast and learn about ASFMC proposals, throwmin some Groundfish and MA DMF discussions to further strengthen the REC approach to the upcoming hearings, then move on...12 noon back on the Charity Tournament delivery route, Sandwhich, Buzzards Bay, Wareham, Dartmouth, Halifax, Braintree...breathe around 6pm..be done by 7pm..Go home

All this after 9 hours of similar schedule today (Thursday)

No I am not looking for simpathy or a medal, my point is that you do not know me, nor seem to have any clue about what I am all about. You continue to state that I am all about the $$ and would take every last fish...Well my friend Friday is the second day this week I will work my but off for no $$$...I am 36 with a Girl and Step Daughter at home. I live check to check like most. FYI it is all about the Fishing for me, not the money. I do what I do and make the choices I make because when I grew up the sight of a Striped Bass in Boston was NEWS and I will never forget the first time I saw one, and caught one some years later. I respect that you have differing opinions than I do, thank God. But I will say that you need to stop making sweeping general statements that include me. I do not know if you fish RI, but if you do, the next time you go there as a Ma fisherman and are not hammered with an insane out of state license fee, think of me, and the few MA fishers who actually drove down there in the winter, prepared with facts to back up our arguements, who took part in the process and helped stop the salt water license. You judge me without knowing me but won't show up at a meeting where your opinions are wanted and needed. I hope we get to meet and wet a line some day since I spend roughly 50 days a year fishing in your neighborhood. You just might get some real info on me...If you want references, Fisherwoman, Baitcaster, BassmaSTER, jOHN r, AND OFF LINE ASK sTEVE mORRIS WHAT HE THINKS OF ME. yOU MIGHT JUST BE SUPRISED WHAT YOUM HEAR...209AM GOTTA GET SOME SLEEP

If a person fishing commercially caught a new state record SB, would it count as a legitimate record fish? I only ask because if I decide to keep a 36'' SB while fishing as a recreational angler and then later catch a record fish, by law I would have to let the record fish go. This means that I would not have the opportunity to have it weighed and formally recognized as a new state record - or world record ;).

My hunch is that the commercially caught record fish wouldn't count because that would give a 40:1 advantage to commercial fishermen. Also, it would be a shame to have that fish end up at the seafood counter rather than someone's wall. I tried checking the DMF website but it seems down.

Mike

Patrick - RE #7 - Yeh, that's what I was talking about - I thought you thought I was wrong :err: ....

To those who don't know him, BasicPatrick is a loud, smelly, sometimes delirious fishnut that is about as "Feel No Pain" fishing as they come. I haven't fished with him much but one week on the Vineyard (he was there 3 or 4 weeks I think) for the derby showed me that he fishes for 20 hours a day and sleeps, farts, & snores the other 4 hours. Meals are consumed as flats of butterfish on the boat as he chases his true Mistress, the Atlantic Bonito :laughs:

Seriously, I've known Patrick for about 5 years now and he does spend a lot of time chasing this stuff down and being in contact with fisheries management people and going to meetings. He was one of a few Mass people at the Rhody license meetings standing up and making (for the most part :D ) good point.

So while I don't always agree with him, I do respect his opinions as they are often based in merit and some research, and otherwise - he's a pretty good egg as well as someone good to fish with and discuss these matters...

Enough of my serinade of The Good Patrick ...

Oh - and so there is no confusion - this guy is not the Other Patrick...

Flatts - the record books are for RECREATIONALLY caught fish. Not commercial. Not to say that a comm guy getting an 80 pounder might try to bend the lae a little, I'm sure a sizeable percentage of recs would consider something sneaky too ...

'Course, that's why I release 99% of my keepers so that when the time comes for me to land that 88 pound behometh, I won't need to ask that question :D

BasicPatrick,

You don't know me either. I am actually a very quiet fellow in person. I honestly respect your charity efforts regarding fishing related activities. But remember you can't have a charity fishing event if there is no fish to fish for. No matter how your good intensions are.

With regard to sb management, you site several basic issues.

1) That recs get the shaft (because of lack of attendance at these meetings)
2) Commercial’s are dominating the board
3) That there is a goal for coast wide general guidelines for states to adhere to being formed, (that really aims (IMO) to protect the commercial interests.

How are the rec's to get a fair shake? IMO the rec's are quiet now because the striped bass problem has been "resolved". (ie there are stripers out there now) When there are no fish to catch...then they will attend. This is sad but a fact of life. The commercial interest is exploiting this fact.

I know you like the sb, many people do. My question to you is worth the money to loose the fish? Most rec's are content to do whatever it takes including a complete no-take limit to see that the fish thrives forever. When I attended the meetings in the past I did not sense that mood among the commercial fishermen. Commercial fishing is one of those industries that has always had to "learn from its mistakes"...time and time and time again. The thing is most guys know what the mistakes are while they contnue to make them year after year after year.

Commercial = $. It is about money. That is what commercial means...for money. Don't deny that. Again, IS IT WORTH IT?

I also don't hate commercial fisherman. Commercial fishing is hard work and is a hit or miss job with a lot of risks, both financial and physical. I was a commercial shell fisherman (little necks, & scallops) (and did some eel combing in the fall) for 10 years, (LI NY) and while I know it is not the same as rod and reeling or dragging I bet a very large majority of the 3000 lics sold for SB are guys "sport" doing it cause it is cheap to do. Further I think this is a ploy by the commercial fishing bodies at-be to lure in sport guys into commercial activities to help thier cause....why else would the fees be so inexpensive? My thoughts on commercial fishing boil down to 3 or 4 reasonable (in my view) thoughts:

1) The state should not encourage the "weekend commercial fisherman", it should be left to real fishing professionals. This does more harm then good. I have seen the results of part time netting...not good, you ended up with drifting gill nets in the bays. Rod and Reall for bass..does more harm then good as well.

2) Commercial fishing should be an offshore activity, not an inshore activity. Let the inshore fish be a public rec activity. It is too easy to wipe out an inshore fishery with the technology available today.

3) While I know that real serious commercial fisherman pay lic's and hefty fees...the general public does not understand what they are doing to "help improve" the fishery for tomorrow. They are seen as "takers". They did not "grow" their crop, they took what belongs to all mankind and sold it for personal gain. In effect they sole from us. But they think they "own it" because they pay a lic fee to the state. They need to give something back and the public needs to hear about this.

4) Foreign fishing must be 200 miles off shore. As a boy off Montauk, I saw Russian fishing factory ships in 60 feet of water right off the point that had nets that went from the surface and scraped the bottom. The best thing this country ever did (with regard to fishing) IMO was the 200 mile limit, and setting bluefin tuna and striped bass limits and quotas. Can you imagine where the bluefin tuna would be if it was left a free-for-all? The commercial fishing activities (rod and reel as well as other methods) would take every last one. No one can deny this.

5) Inforcement of current fishing laws. Perhpaps this should be number 1. When was the last time you were checked? Where you ever checked?



Patrick, I don't have anything against you or other commercials personally, please believe me, and perhaps some late night off the beaten path under the bluffs our paths will cross and we can swap a story or two. I am not a hostile guy, (despite my ratings here) and I prefer to avoid most people and don't care to fish in contests or in crowds. I think the reason I am so vocal here is that it just disgusts me to see money associated with this particular fish. This is a special fish. It is not a flounder or scup, it has a special meaning to many fisherman. I don't think commercial fishing needs this fish but mankind does.

I enjoy the solitude of the sport and the surroundings it puts me in while doing it. I also like to see the excitement on a child’s face when they reel in a bigone and the feeling of satisfaction and conservation when he is released unharmed. And the hope that that kid will do the same with his kids. Yeah, I take some fish home for the freezer. Each time we enjoy it we recount the memories of past fishing trips. This reminds us of how lucky and grateful we all are to be able to have such a great resource.

I think it is time to do what is right for the fishery and not "manage" the fishery for maximum yield and profits. I have been thinking about my statements about going commercial next year...I don't know if I have the heart to toss a 40 on the scales for $...I think would actually pay to see it put back alive. We will see what happens...

Anyway, I am finished ranting on this thread. You all know where I stand.

Good luck to you my friend.

Time to go fishing......
:)

I'm not fanning flames here and am not entering this debate, but maybe this would be a good chance for someone "in the know" to let us know how we can help. Provide leadership and information of who we can contact with letters and emails.

Most people will be passive even if they disagree, often 'cause it feels like you can't really contribute w/o attending meetings, etc. Bottom line is that one has to take care of their own yard first, and I'm sure most of us struggle to keep up with that.

I'm not going to find that kind of time anytime soon, but would be happy to write to whoever, to explore other options of ways to contribute.

Maybe adding a conservation forum where these things are updated.

Sorry if this information was already in this thread, I haven't been able to browse much this week. Anyway, just an idea.

Originally posted by Mr. Sandman

Rod and Reall for bass..does more harm then good as well.


How so?

I suppose I should respond...

I meant commercial rod and reel for bass does more harm then good.

What good is done by taking bass for money? Few people benifit but the fish population for generations feel the pain.

Sandman,

Gotchya. I originally thought that you were saying the method itself was bad.

Mike