http://www.mvderby.com/boards/comments.php?DiscussionID=32&page=1#Item_0

it is a shame, but it is very difficult to address.
i don't know the guy, but everything i have read points to him to being one of the best. a real highliner. But are they supposed to make final judgment based on their personal feelings towards the angler? How do you write that in the rules?
real tough call.

wow that is a tough one... I say allow the fish if you can prove that the angler didn't put the weights in there

Zacs--you're right on that, "tough call."

I've met Lev and he is a young fisherman with some incredible catches.
He's a heck of a big-bass fisherman. I would let the fish stand as is. But I can understand how difficult a decision it is to make.

i saw these pics on another site. A 42# bass and the contents of its stomach....

Wow.

Tricky question to answer. Someone should write an essay about it. It has interesting conflicts of all kinds: sport, commercial, tournament rules and regulations.

what the heck is all that lead doing in the fish. I don't really understand yo yoing, but if thats what results it seems a little... i can't think of the right words.

classic yo yo aftermath

all the pieces even line up


that fish hit 12 or 13 yo/yo's in its lifetime

If you guys think this thread should be deleted that's fine. I don't feel totally right about pasting another board on this one. I only thought it was an interesting debate. If any moderator thinks this post is out-of-bounds...........

I think this post is fine and John allows links for the most part.

You can't make this decision based on personal feelings. Everyone on MV knows that Lev is a straight shooter, but they have to be fair. Another well-known angler had a fish DQ's because it had yo-yo weights in it. They have to apply the rules equally. That's the only way to keep the integrity of the Derby. If they allow "yo-yo" weights dollars to donuts someone will load a fish with them.

It's going to be a recurring problem given how many comms are yo-yoing around the Elizabeths in season.

if fish cannot digest lead
then it stays in their stomachs.

that being said... :cputin:

it's simple really ...you weigh the lead
and subtract that weight from the fish.

Very simple call, they can not enter that fish, it's simple.
They dunk the fish to remove all sand and also remove the lure/fly.
I have seen at other fishing contests they will not let a fish stuffed with ice cubes in the contest!
I also think Lev should buy a lottery ticket :D
Yet another Martha's Vineyard Mystery :gu:

VB

I read that thread on the Derby website yesterday, I met Lev very briefly last year. He is a fantastic fisherman not only for bass but albies, blues etc just look at the derby board from the past few years.

I'm anti Yo' Yo ing for sure. Unfortunately you can still catch fish that have ate them before. I don't think you can count a fish with lead in it's stomach there is just too much grey area for future fish and dirty anglers. Too bad Lev weighed in a 45+lb fish earlier in the derby too.

Very simple call, they can not enter that fish, it's simple.
They dunk the fish to remove all sand and also remove the lure/fly.
I have seen at other fishing contests they will not let a fish stuffed with ice cubes in the contest!
I also think Lev should buy a lottery ticket :D
Yet another Martha's Vineyard Mystery :gu:

VB

i guess you are right. But it is just such a shame that the guy catches such a fish, and by no fault of his own, it is DQ'd.

does anyone know how much lead was in Lev's fish?

I feel bad for Lev. But not too bad... i've seen his record and know he will be into plenty more fish this size.

Do they eat a fish with that much lead in it's belly? I wouldn't.

I've caught plnety of bass, of all sizes, that had rocks in their stomach. What's the difference?

I've caught plnety of bass, of all sizes, that had rocks in their stomach. What's the difference?

rocks are'nt usually man made or the by-product of yo yoing.

Tough for Lev but a hell of a fish either way.

Ok, I'm a pretty serious surf guy but have only been on 10 or less charters in my life, so I don't know the boat scene that well.

Given that, please excuse the following stupid question:

What the hell is yo yoing?

(My two cents: If you find weights in the fish, net it off the overall wieght and that's that. If you find someone put them there on purpose in a tourney, disqualify them and stone them.)

There was a record largemouth caught in California that had a diver's weight inside it. It was in there so long the insides had grown around it. They let it stand and it was the new record. I don't know if it is the current record.

Yo-yoing is using a fresh dead bait fish such as bunker which is weighted down by using some type of lead which will go through the mouth. A skewer is placed through the bait fish. I believe that a single hook or treble hook can be placed by the dorsal fin or through the mouth as well. There should be no slack in the line as hits can be undectable with slack. Let baitfish sink to desired depth and SLOWLY lift the rod tip up in a fluid motion and then let the bait sink back down to the appropriate dept and repeat the process. At least this is how the Captain did it on the charter boat I was on if I remember correctly.

Yo-yoing is using a fresh dead bait fish such as bunker which is weighted down by using some type of lead which will go through the mouth. A skewer is placed through the bait fish. I believe that a single hook or treble hook can be placed by the dorsal fin or through the mouth as well. There should be no slack in the line as hits can be undectable with slack. Let baitfish sink to desired depth and SLOWLY lift the rod tip up in a fluid motion and then let the bait sink back down to the appropriate dept and repeat the process. At least this is how the Captain did it on the charter boat I was on if I remember correctly.

From my knowledge this is indeed how it's done I have never personally done it. The problem with yo yoing is that if a fish eats a weighted bunker and breaks off they then have a belly full of lead (as was the case with Lev's fish) Charter captains and commercial fisherman use this tactic because it's very effective

for my .02 it's a dirty way to fish :af: and I'm glad the derby outlaws it.

Are you saying the Derby outlaws catching fish by Yo-Yo?

Yes...

I did not know that. Why don't they? & why is it dirty?

As far as I know the issue is still being reviewed. Wait till the ruling. I think they are having another meeting about this tonight.

i mean why would you even consider doing that. that's just false recognition. it's not like you can brainwash yourself into thinking you really landed a 42 pounder. everyone knows how big their fish really were no matter what you tell people. no good.

i saw these pics on another site. A 42# bass and the contents of its stomach....

its a loooonnngggg story

if the fish had the yo-yoing gear in it for a long time and from what they are saying, the gear was in there for a long time, i dont see why they just dont weigh the gear and subtract the wieght of the gear from the fish's weight. I dont know Lev, but the guy has a got the touch.

Its not like there was 6 lbs of assorted lead products in the fish's belly.. I wonder what the ramifications would be to an angler caught cheating by doing such a thing to win a tournament???

Ice & Squib, thanks for the 411

There is a bigger issue here - Yo Yo-ing, Can you get a more unethical method of taking bass? Obviously many bass do survive with those spokes in their belly with but who knows how many don't. Charter Captains use this method? I can see commercials because they normally don't give a crap.

DZ

I think weighing the lead and subtracting it from the total is acceptable in the future but making a rule retroactive in the middle of a tourney is not acceptable. If this was an unknown or even known but unliked person , that fish would have been disqualified.

Anyway , good plan for the future to simply gut them and subtract unnatural stuff's weight but to change the rule now in the middle of the tourney is poor judgement IMO.

zacs, my friend caught that fish you posted pics of. that was a surf caught fish maybe mid-fall. that fish was caught maybe a few miles from a heavily fished boat spot. during the week the spot gets a lot of local commercial rod and reel pressure. a lot of those guys yo-yo too.

as far as this particular derby fish, he caught it using his tatics, whether or not all the lead and rigs were from him or someone else. it's a difficult one to weigh on as someone mentioned what about the bait used and consumed by a bass if one entered that fish? should that be taken out of the bass, weighed and then subtracted from the fish's overall weight if the yo-yo's are taken out? i guess the committee either has to decide to remove the contents for yo-yo caught fish and subtract that from the fish's weight, disqualify the fish right away, or leave it as is (it sounds like they already disqualified it). you have to assume that someone else that may have caught a boat fish and it happened to have yo-yo in it's stomach shouldnt be penalized if the person used a different method, such as throwing eels? is that fair to disqualiy a fish in that instance? what if you caught a bluefish w/ a diamond jig from the boat inside it's mouth. it's not in the stomach, but in the fish's mouth? that jig could weigh 6-16 oz., or more.

going back to my friend's fish, he's was caught in the surf. his fish counted towards a tournament for a club. would it be fair to disqualify his fish w/ those contents if he caught it from the surf? you cant yo-yo from the surf?

i've been a tournament chair for clubs before. it's difficult at times. you dont always think of every possibly rule until something comes up such as this one. it'll be an interesting story for a while for the derby.

I maybe thick here but how do yoyo rigs go from inside a basses stomach one day,out of it and into its skin over time without damaging the stomach? Also if the bass survived as long as it did like that, and many others are caught with the same condition, and they are apparently healthy enough to survive until they are caught again why the big uproar about yo-yoing. :read:

Also it looks like the Derby is making a new rule, and making it retroactive to the beggining of the 07 tournament. They will be subtracting the weight of the lead from Lev's fish, and the Bluefish.

Wow,
Not sure how to swallow this one :rotf3:

Good for Lev, But bad for the derby.
I understand they thought long and hard over this one but I still think they made a huge mistake and just opened the gates up !!
I hope now it does not turn into a "catch me if you can" event!
And everyone starts loading fish up with lead /sand/ice/ what ever it takes to add on a few extra pounds!
Can you see them gutting every fish entered in the derby??? And then subtracting "whatever" they found inside?
They should have said sorry, but your fish is a freak of nature loaded with lead and under the current rules you are DQ'ed
But what a hell of a fish !!!
02 cents
VB

Nothing against Lev. But this is a horrible precedent IMO.

And here's the $64,000 question--would this decision have gone the same way if the fish was caught by a "no-name"--especially one from off-Island? ;)

The $64,000 answere begins with N and ends with O.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't they originally disqualify the bluefish and then let it back in because they changed the rule to let the big striper in?

I think that any bass found to have manmade weights inside it should have those subtracted, unless it's proveable that the catcher did it intentiontally in which case it should obviously be DQ'ed.

This includes something growing in the tissue, which I can't believe is all that common. Pretty easy to post-mortem a big bass that's dead anyway.

As to the technique. Difficult to say something's not kosher if it's legal...I guess the question is should it be legal? How many bass really break free and accumulate gear in their belly?

-spence

How many bass really break free and accumulate gear in their belly?

-spence

That is the important point that is worth taking notice of. Ya see, it's the actual bait itself that may come off the line during the fight that will sink to the bottom where it becomes an easy meal for mama cow bass, then she swallows it and the manmade parts remain in her tummy. That is why yo-yoing is unethical IMO. Of course there are some that break off during the fight also and if those fish swallow the bait, the lead and stuff ends up stuck in them also.
same thing would happen to a rubbercore sinker shoved into an eel if the bass eats that and gets away, but we are not talking 6 ounces of lead and a skiwer either.

[QUOTE=ThrowingTimber;529619]rocks are'nt usually man made or the by-product of yo yoing. [QUOTE]


Actually, using the term "Yo-Yo" is a bit too general. There are many that employ the basic technique and rig the baits with more "digestable" materials.

Also, rocks are probably used more than lead these days.

I always find it odd that "Yo-Yo" is a bad thing while at the same time there is no "controversy" busting off a six ounce jig in the gullet of a fish whether from shore in the canal or on the end of a string of wire. I would bet a lot of money that far and away more bass are killed by broken off jigs stuck in their throat and gills then are killed by YoYo rigs.

Now do not get me wrong, I think we should all do what we can to minimize damage to the fish we catch, however I think a little consistancy is in order also.

same thing would happen to a rubbercore sinker shoved into an eel if the bass eats that and gets away, but we are not talking 6 ounces of lead and a skiwer either.


Rubber core sinkers are still made of "lead" a metal that is poisonous. Any lead that ends up in a fish has to do damage. there is also the question what happens to the flesh of a fish that ingests any amount of lead. Does the poison from the lead make its way through the fish's blood and into it's flesh for some human to eat.

Obviuosly there is no perfect answer to this controversy and each angler muxst make their own call as to what is and is not acceptable to themself.

As far as the Derby (of which I am involved with three Sponsors), I do not think anyone has all of the information and thus I can not comment on what they were presented in their meeting. I do know that the Committee is manned by many different personalities and since I beleive in Democracy, I am sure they did the best they could with what they had in front of them.

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