Did they really move manufacturing to china???

Where did you hear this? Hope not...

the other site

Definitely true.

Although I have to say they gave the shop one early this year with the usual instructions to try and destroy it. They wouldn't tell us what was new other then that it was different until a couple days go.

The anodizing was better (we didn't put 2 and 2 together at the time), it was smoother, and it caught a lot of fish.

Sad though, regardless.

Definitely true.

Although I have to say they gave the shop one early this year with the usual instructions to try and destroy it. They wouldn't tell us what was new other then that it was different until a couple days go.

The anodizing was better (we didn't put 2 and 2 together at the time), it was smoother, and it caught a lot of fish.

Sad though, regardless.

No negative differences? Same parts and materials? Are they gonna knock the price back??

No negative differences? Same parts and materials? Are they gonna knock the price back??

It's the same exact reel as far as I know. Just made there. We tried for a long time to identify what was different about the one we got and there's just nothing obvious.

I highly doubt you'd see a price drop and I haven't heard anything at all about price change.

If the Saltiga and Stellas having some parts made out of cast metal still sell for $600 to $700 made overseas there's just no way I can see a price drop on similarly priced but instead all machined reel made overseas.

Dan Hill had mentioned it to me last yr (Fall) they were doing in China and that they have live video of the shop so they can SEE if something goes wrong and correct it as quick as possible. I just thought everyone knew that. ;)

The new VSB and the 275 have the newer instant anti-reverse system in them which are suppose to be way better than the older/first generation ones. I wish they could incorporate it into the older style reels, but that would involve new tooling which could add more to the cost so VS isn't about to do it.

If you send the reel in each yr or service it yourself you should be ok. I personally don't know any one who has KILLED a VS yet. ;)

LOTS of consumer goods are made in China! It is a fact of reality now a days. Go to a store pick up any item and look for country of origin sticker/label. :(

Dan Hill had mentioned it to me last yr (Fall) they were doing in China and that they have live video of the shop so they can SEE if something goes wrong and correct it as quick as possible. I just thought everyone knew that. ;)

The new VSB and the 275 have the newer instant anti-reverse system in them which are suppose to be way better than the older/first generation ones. I wish they could incorporate it into the older style reels, but that would involve new tooling which could add more to the cost so VS isn't about to do it.

If you send the reel in each yr or service it yourself you should be ok. I personally don't know any one who has KILLED a VS yet. ;)

LOTS of consumer goods are made in China! It is a fact of reality now a days. Go to a store pick up any item and look for country of origin sticker/label. :(

My first year with a VS and I loved it,of course.Now help me understand,when I send this thing in for its yearly maintaince where will it go and who will perform the maintaince.

So, paying a machinist pennies an hour (assuming he's not a convict working for free) as opposed to whatever the going rate for a skilled machinist is in Tulsa (figure a minimum of $15/hour even in a non-union shop) doesn't warrant a price drop? :confused:

I'm sure the guy pouring castings in Tokyo is also making a decent wage, too--probably comparable to what an American was making at Penn casting reel bodies.

Pete, I know you're a pro staffer but you are way too much of an apologist for these guys. I can't accept that you can be objective on the subject of VS :hs:

My first year with a VS and I loved it,of course.Now help me understand,when I send this thing in for its yearly maintaince where will it go and who will perform the maintaince.

Van Staal Service
6109 E. Apache
Tulsa, OK 74115

So, paying a machinist pennies an hour (assuming he's not a convict working for free) as opposed to whatever the going rate for a skilled machinist is in Tulsa (figure a minimum of $15/hour even in a non-union shop) doesn't warrant a price drop? :confused:

I'm sure the guy pouring castings in Tokyo is also making a decent wage, too--probably comparable to what an American was making at Penn casting reel bodies.

Pete, I know you're a pro staffer but you are way too much of an apologist for these guys. I can't accept that you can be objective on the subject of VS :hs:
Could not POSSIBLY AGREE WITH YOU ANY MORE .
You are 100% correct Sir.
Big Corp America. Save a bundle on manufacturing costs by giving jobs away to a country that builds childrens toys with Lead Paint, and don't give the consumer even a penny break. Just pocket the additional profits.The new American way, everyone is doing it so it must be ok ? SAD.

Unforunate yes, suprising no.

Nobody should really be suprised by this. It's like many other products once made in the USA that are now being maufactured overseas where production costs are lower.

Let's just hope that the quality remains superior. Who knows, maybe the prices will come down once production is perfected.

It wasn't that long ago that many of us objected to owning ASIAN made automobiles claiming that quality was inferior. Let's see what happens with these VS'

So, paying a machinist pennies an hour (assuming he's not a convict working for free) as opposed to whatever the going rate for a skilled machinist is in Tulsa (figure a minimum of $15/hour even in a non-union shop) doesn't warrant a price drop? :confused:

I'm sure the guy pouring castings in Tokyo is also making a decent wage, too--probably comparable to what an American was making at Penn casting reel bodies.

Pete, I know you're a pro staffer but you are way too much of an apologist for these guys. I can't accept that you can be objective on the subject of VS :hs:


I just offered my opinion. I know what it costs to make a Stella, I know what it costs to make a VS in the US, and I can guesstimate what it costs to make a Van Staal in China.

As for the rest of it, it's just what it is. It's not an apology. People asked a few questions so I answered. 1. They're made in China. 2. They look, feel, and are the same. Do what you want with the truth.

Lastly, I'm not a "pro-staffer"...

Doesn't surprise me at all. This is a very common issue with many luxery goods.

A niche brand with a strong legacy struggles to maintain quality and profit. They are bought by a larger group who seeks to make profit from the brand identity, but to do so need to scale sales to a broader audience. The old production methods don't scale well so production is moved offshore where it's cheaper.

Then the brand is milked for all it's worth. While the new owner leverages the brand identity and touts the legacy quality to justify a continued high (or even higher price) the actual methods end up turning out something that simply wasn't what it once was.

Now that's not to say that you can't make a quality product in China, but it may not be what marketing continues to push.

Soon enough though, some smaller niche vendors will step up and start the cycle again.

-spence

pffft.

It must be Chistmas, cause Spence and I finally agree on something .:blush:

Zebco(wc Bradley co.) bought the BRAND name, whatever patents , & what is called "good will" thats all they really care about. Sure there was tooling and parts inventory ,but thats secondary.
They knew right from the getgo that manufacturing in china would give them economies of scale or whatever you wanna call it.
They want YOU, the Van Staal fanatic(and you guys really are fanatical about them I gotta say) to PUSH that Brand name while they reap all the profits.
The comparison with autos out of Japan in the '70's is not really a fair one. Japan had/has a work ethic . Qulity control is definitely not an easy task in China. Im sure Mattel Toys thought they had quality control sorted out pretty good too.
But, The product may ultimately be great, heck it may even IMPROVE in quality. Noone can guess what will happen, but one thing for sure, they wont be passing ANY savings on to you . They will just make more Van Staal hats with the new profits.

VanZebco Fabrique au Chinois, tres, tres, ow you say, Funny!

I love it!:grins:

I would be willing to pay about $200 more for something made in the USA.

Zee cough Baas cough. Made in Connecticut.

WIll they be available at Wal-mart now??

Why are all of you so surprised?
van stall is now owned by friggen ZEBCO... Of course this was going to happen.

what a bunch of bullshat. how is the price not going to drop? they obviously moved the operations over there so that the cost of manufacturing would be less.

F VS. i'll be fishing my 704s until they explode.....which isn't going to happen anytime soon...

The only potential issue I see with manufacturing in china is a potental recall for lead :laugha::laugha::laugha:

I personally don't know any one who has KILLED a VS yet. ;)



You need to talk to Kenny "Cowhunter". I think his grand total was 5 VS 250s DOA. I was fishing with Crazy Al the night his VS came apart in his hands--that sideplate that most people can't remove with a strap wrench came off the reel. How is a mystery, but it did happen.

I guess the half dozen guys (that I know personally) who have had the shoulder bolt on the handle snap while jigging the Canal with their brand new 275s this year didn't KILL their VS, but it sure KILLED their fishing for the night unless they had a back-up reel with them. I'd classify that as a wounded reel for sure.

So, paying a machinist pennies an hour (assuming he's not a convict working for free) as opposed to whatever the going rate for a skilled machinist is in Tulsa (figure a minimum of $15/hour even in a non-union shop) doesn't warrant a price drop? :confused:

I'm sure the guy pouring castings in Tokyo is also making a decent wage, too--probably comparable to what an American was making at Penn casting reel bodies.


While that much is true, and VERRRRY SAD, what is also true is the flip side of what's NOT happening in China. One of the primary reasons they can offer lower mfg costs is because they have no standards to measure up to. Here we have OSHA, BBBureau, Industry watchdogs, and one of the biggest impacts to many companies' bottom lines is the way the insurance conglomerates of the "Good Ole US of A" have been fleecing corporate Amercia and driving our economy for decades.

Ever since The Great Depression, the employer driven insurance and bennies system has been moving towards the place where we are now. The Program is simply NOT cost effective to the bottom line. Over there, the CEO's can finally realize/recoop some real fiscal profit and begin to establish some real net worth. Do we know how close they've come to going under while trying to provide the "Best Damn Reel in the World"? Does anyone honestly think that the good People of Tulsa want their jobs, product, their "niche" being niched in China?

While it is entirely possible to produce good reels on foreign soil, and I'm all for China becoming a capitalistic society.....................

In the process it does NOT make sense to me to cut the NUTZ right off of our domestic workers because our insurance and benefits pkgs need to be rethunk. Likewise, if the foreign manufacturers had to compete fairly and measure up to the current American Standards of fair wage, insurance, workman's comp, breaks every two hours, unions, quality control standards, enuff VP's to retool the whole line, etc. etc., then I think that we would find many of our jobs return to American soil.

Perhaps the silver lining is that on the other side of this current economic trend, ownership~management~labor could sit down and negotiate terms that would lead them all to higher profit margins and long term employment practices.

I don't blame VS for trying to leverage their position, ZEBCO is somewhat to blame because without demand......; but this whole concept of moving labels overseas has been prevalent and profitable for sometime now, and it SUX!! It is very sad that we can't seem to figure out how to correct the workplace, so that we can restore US dominance to the world marketplace.

If Pete says the thing is the same except the annodizing is better.Thats good news.Would have been worse if he said the new plastic handle and balsa drag knob wear out quick.Pete knows what he's talking about.He also said earlier in the year.So who knows how long they have been making them over there could date back 3 or 4 years.The whole Tulsa thing could have just been a front for Zebco.So it looked like it was made in the USA.Most likely a few illegals stuffed into a confined area tearing down and re-assembling for peacework.My only advice is if you want one buy it,if you have one keep it.Just learn how to do the maintenance on your own .Get a bunch of seals,o-rings and lube.After you tear it down yourself and put it back together the only thing you can blame reel failure on is yourself.Not the illegals in tulsa or the china men or women trying to survive on peanuts.Big Business's are always looking to cut corners and save a buck sad but true.:cheers:

As we slowly move forward to manufacturing absolutely nothing in this country anymore. Sad but reality. The only thing you can hope for is the things down the road end up being sub par and they regret their business decision to do so. I don't like to wish ill will on anyone and probably am living in the good old days with my thoughts but going out of the country too make more of a profit and to put skilled manufactures out of a job in this country is a slap in the face to people who have chosen to learn a difficult trade for many years only to be thrown out of their lively hood. I am probably an A 1 hypocrite for making these statements as I am sure I own lots of stuff that was made overseas, but if you can't get them from this country you have no other choice. My view is if we continue to make the choice to make bigger profits by going with the cheapest labor, and cheapest quality, than no one will go into this trade, as is mostly the case now, and then what happens after all us die and we can't even make a widget anymore. As is always the case nowadays it's all about the money. It is in sports, business, everything. Make the most profit no matter what. IMO a short term view to make the most money with no concern on what will happen in the decades to come. Merry x-mas

sad to say everything today is made in china.there are no mfg in the states anymore,at least in ct.all popular auto's are foreign,the american big 3 auto co are all close to going under along with there dealers.if vs was to lower the price to reflect the savings they would increase their market share.i'm not convinced ct. vs'a-reel ventures vs-zebco vs's ever made a turn your head profit.check your vs serial ####### and figure in your mind what they made for profit after dealer mark up and expenses,i think very little per reel.how many zee bass reels out there at $1200 each,not many.

If Pete says the thing is the same except the annodizing is better.Thats good news.

Just to be clear about the anodizing being "bettter" this isn't something anyone will really be able see even when looking for it. This was real nit-picking here.

On the Tulsa machined parts which were anodized silver you could often see slight trails or scratches where the machine cut the metal. Basically tiny irrelevent imperfections no one would notice unless you were REALLY hunting for them but at the same time you wouldn't see that sort of imprefection on a Abel or Tibor fly reel, a ZeeBaas, or other high end machined item so we had mentioned it to VS last year.

The silver reel we got early this year just didn't have any of that.

In hindsight, basically ignore that I even mentined it...

Ey Mike P, I don't agree w/ the folks that own VS that they won't lower the price what so ever. I don't like blue collar guys like myself losing jobs due to businesses closing because manufacturing was moved to China. :( Sad part is people will continue to buy VS reels regardless of where they are made and the cost. :(

I didn't doubt people destroy a VS reel at all, MikeP. None of my inner circle of friends have busted one (most don't fish the Canal either).The side plate coming off is due to poor engineering - it should have been threaded the opposite direction so if it did ever loosen up you would end up tightening it up from just cranking on the handle. :) Of course it confuses the service person working on it because people automatically think righty tighty and lefty loosey ..... LOL. The brainiac who came up with the non hex side plate deserves idiot award of the century - they did that to stop guys from self-servicing it essentially.

From a business stand point the only was VS was going to survive was for the production of it to go abroad otherwise they would have never taken on the endeaver IMHO. Would you rather pay a person $1/hr or $30/hr for the same job?

I had heard from a source that Van Staal use to get all of it's aluminum for free from some aerospace industry ( it was their scrap) and that eventually dried up when the person left.

So be sure now to advertise that your reel is USA made verses China & you can charge premium prices now..... LOL. Who wants to wager $$ that you WILL see this advertise on Ebay now and drive the prices up. Oh, America - ya gotta love the guy looking to make a buck on something. :P

and I can guesstimate what it costs to make a Van Staal in China.

After tooling is complete?
Maybe $10.

God bless profit.

It is ALL about shareholder profit... nothing else.

I was told that when zebco first took over that they were making the parts overseas and assembling them here.don't know how true it was but this could have been happening for awhile.and it seems that nothing ever goes down in price wishfull thinking however.

Those Chinese pirates will make a knock off for 1/10th the price so everyone will be able to buy one.

In my industry (IP network devices) Huawei has copied Cisco's products so it is only a matter of time until we will see a Chinese knockoff of a VS.

Mike:

I have to respectfully disagree with you here. I've had several conversations with Pete about all the high end reels and he's objective & as informed as he can be. He sells at least 3 of the 4 top end spinning reels so he really has no reason to be biased towards VS - and in my experience he is not.

If he says he's put the "chinese" version of the VS through the ringer I take his word for it. Not saying I'm happy they're now made in China but I believe Pete's analysis of the "chinese" reel.

Only time will tell if they're worse or better - but just remember that every model of reel has had it troubles time to time.


Pete, I know you're a pro staffer but you are way too much of an apologist for these guys. I can't accept that you can be objective on the subject of VS :hs:

Those Chinese pirates will make a knock off for 1/10th the price so everyone will be able to buy one.

In my industry (IP network devices) Huawei has copied Cisco's products so it is only a matter of time until we will see a Chinese knockoff of a VS.

Hey Joe P, I think that Mike was more referrring to the outside of the VStaal plant, knock-off mfging of The, yet to be released, Von Stelisahn.

Made the same way, made with the same parts, made by the same people who'll be making yer '08 Van Staals, just their rip-off version at 1/2 the price. Ain't corporate Amercia/China grand?

I think I saw a Chinese knock off on ebay already.

I think I saw a Chinese knock off on ebay already.

Link?

Those Chinese pirates will make a knock off for 1/10th the price so everyone will be able to buy one.

In my industry (IP network devices) Huawei has copied Cisco's products so it is only a matter of time until we will see a Chinese knockoff of a VS.
You know, you might be onto something here. Maybe thats why they have so many security cameras in the factory. Not so much for the quality team to observe and make corrections, but rather to prevent a spy or even employee from stealing some tooling or blueprints. Not like it has never happened before.
Interesting.

super interesting,how many of our wifes,girlfreinds,daughters have all the high end handbags.it seems they all have them.i know my wife has more than 1(its a woman thing) and at least are a couple of knock offs.so just a matter of time.day shift will make the vs's,night shift will copy and make knock offs out the back door.the more i think about all these woman with high end pocketbooks,go out and spend $$$$ on some high end fish gear.

I have a link for you Mr. JohnR regarding Van Stall reels. I find this pretty interesting. I am a long time "lurker",first time poster, so not to sure of the rules on links. Or can I send you an e-mail instead?

I have a link for you Mr. JohnR regarding Van Stall reels. I find this pretty interesting. I am a long time "lurker",first time poster, so not to sure of the rules on links. Or can I send you an e-mail instead?

I'm pretty sure that John allows links--unless they're to a porno site ;).

It's the same exact reel as far as I know. Just made there. We tried for a long time to identify what was different about the one we got and there's just nothing obvious.

I highly doubt you'd see a price drop and I haven't heard anything at all about price change.

If the Saltiga and Stellas having some parts made out of cast metal still sell for $600 to $700 made overseas there's just no way I can see a price drop on similarly priced but instead all machined reel made overseas.

On SOL there has been posts by regular canal jiggers having busted handles among other issues. Someone mentioned that the metal might be inferior but do not know if that is just surmised.

I'm switching to conventional

I've been chewing on this for a couple of days and I guess it comes down to intent. I think by intention it was never 'announced' that this was happening. I don't give a monkeys red rump about the reels origin. I got a 200 a couple of months ago and fished it hard enough to know that it works as advertised. What bugs me is that the intention was there to deceive. It's that kind of action that makes you 'feel' that something isn't what it is proported to be.

Link?

Was not a knock off was another reel made in china with VS in the description.

On SOL there has been posts by regular canal jiggers having busted handles among other issues. Someone mentioned that the metal might be inferior but do not know if that is just surmised.

It's old news, from early this year or last. That's not to say there isn't a reel or two out there that could still have that flaw. A batch of the bolts that hold the handle together had been machined too agressively and were snapping. Usually it revealed itself pretty quickly and it wasn't just happening in severe Canal service, I saw a 150 or two that it happened too as well.

If you actually see one it's immediately obvious that it was WAY too thin.

Once again Mike_P, this is just what it is, not an apology, nor is it a subjective viewpoint. No need for some snide comment.

Mike:

I have to respectfully disagree with you here. I've had several conversations with Pete about all the high end reels and he's objective & as informed as he can be. He sells at least 3 of the 4 top end spinning reels so he really has no reason to be biased towards VS - and in my experience he is not.

If he says he's put the "chinese" version of the VS through the ringer I take his word for it. Not saying I'm happy they're now made in China but I believe Pete's analysis of the "chinese" reel.

Only time will tell if they're worse or better - but just remember that every model of reel has had it troubles time to time.

I agree.

Heres a link ---Are these real Van Staals??? or Fakes??? Check the price on these, and where they are located


http://www.diytrade.com/directory/global/buy/products/3072432/Van_Staal_VS_250_LB_Left_Hand_Retrieve_Spinning_Re el.html

I got to meet a lot of wonderful people thru the net over the years,particularly on this website.
Not one has left a bigger impression on me that PeteG.
Why?
How many other tackle store "pros" call you and try to find out if the hype that goes on the net is real or its subsidized by the manufacturer before they stock their product?Most stores are happy enough to cash in on the hot item, regardless of the actual product qualities.
Pete don't shill or cover for no one.He just tell you like it is,objective to a fault
Something we could all use more in this industry............

Merry Christmas

Lots of foolish, uninformed comments here. We like what we like,regardless of where it is made. Stella, Saltiga, Abu. Where are they made? Are they cast or machined? What do you think costs more Einstein?Seems some folks have an axe to grind for whatever reason.A$700 reel better be good but there is NOTHING that does not break down with salt,sand or sun.I have seen the accurate spinners.... I have seen the saltiga loyalists upset too.Alberto broke a reel....wow.How could that happen?Swim with a reel,do nothing to maintain it,we'll see who can fish longest. Sure I wish it was still made in the USA I'm proud of my country. Is there something wrong with this? I also would like to see WET (white entetainment television).This does not mean I am a racist,just proud of my race.Lots of stuff slipping away we can't seem to control,add this to the list. Hold your breath because I hear we will be getting some interesting news regarding the ZeeBaas. You heard it here first.
MERRY CHRISTMAS

Once again Mike_P, this is just what it is, not an apology, nor is it a subjective viewpoint. No need for some snide comment.


I'm done with this thread, Pete, and in fact I'm done with the very subject. I expressed an opinion. Which I'm not the only one here who shares. So we each have people who privately support our opinions. I've never met you, and I've never been in your shop. I only know you from these forums, and in my opinion--and even a moderator of these forums is entitled to have an opinion--you have in the past and even now shown a bias in favor of VS. It's just an opinion I have, nothing more. I don't consider it to be anything more than a bias. It isn't a reflection on your character or an accusation of an ulterior motive---any human being is entitled to a bias in favor of a product. I would have replied to you privately, but since you chose to continue this in public, I'll respond publicly.

And just for the record--I own two older Van Staal reels which have never given me a lick of trouble, and I don't have any deal with any reel company. Any product I happen to mention doesn't have me on its payroll, or doesn't sell me a product at a substantial discount over what the public pays. I don't have any ulterior motives in expressing my opinions.

Anyway, like I said, I'm done with the subject on this website.

Merry Christmas--sincerely.

I'm done with this thread, Pete, and in fact I'm done with the very subject. I expressed an opinion. Which I'm not the only one here who shares. So we each have people who privately support our opinions. I've never met you, and I've never been in your shop. I only know you from these forums, and in my opinion--and even a moderator of these forums is entitled to have an opinion--you have in the past and even now shown a bias in favor of VS. It's just an opinion I have, nothing more. I don't consider it to be anything more than a bias. It isn't a reflection on your character or an accusation of an ulterior motive---any human being is entitled to a bias in favor of a product. I would have replied to you privately, but since you chose to continue this in public, I'll respond publicly.

And just for the record--I own two older Van Staal reels which have never given me a lick of trouble, and I don't have any deal with any reel company. Any product I happen to mention doesn't have me on its payroll, or doesn't sell me a product at a substantial discount over what the public pays. I don't have any ulterior motives in expressing my opinions.

Anyway, like I said, I'm done with the subject on this website.

Merry Christmas--sincerely.


Come on now Mike. You’re acting as though you’re revealing something or making a formal accusation. If you’re only of the opinion I support Van Staal you’re not paying attention. As Sea Dangles would say, “Is a 5 pound robin fat?” ;) And of course you are entitled to your opinion.

VS has been good for the Saltwater Edge, and I don’t really mean in respect to reel sales. People who buy them usually like them and continue to shop at the SWE. In a world where small tackle and fly shops are disappearing there’s nothing more important to me that people come back. So that relationship is pretty simple. If I felt VS was nothing but a disappointment they’d be out. And since some people don’t like them, or are fishing in ways that other reels are better suited for, or maybe they just don’t want to buy a Van Staal made in China we carry Accurate, Stellas, Saltigas, and all manner of reels at all price ranges. We’ll probably carry ZeeBaas soon too once this whole made overseas question is put to bed one way or the other.

Now to what this is really about.

Pete, I know you're a pro staffer but you are way too much of an apologist for these guys. I can't accept that you can be objective on the subject of VS :hs:

It’s the Internet so everyone reads things differently. I’m sure some read it and didn’t think a thing of it. Maybe it was the smiley shaking his head, or maybe it was the way you worded it. What I took notice of was the tone. To quote Clem from Joe Dirt: “You're talking to me all wrong... It's the wrong tone.” Now initially I dismissed it assuming I was reading it wrong or overreacting, but when people call, email, and walk into the shop and ask wtf that was all about it’s pretty clear I wasn’t wrong in being not too pleased with the way you decided to word it.

Regardless, you’ve said your piece and I’ve said mine.

Now let’s get back to the wild speculation. Someone show me proof VS quality will slip. And especially since the SWE will probably soon pick up Zee Baas, prove that it has foreign parts in it. I've heard the ZeeBaas rumors for a while now but no proof at all. While it would be nice to have an entirely US built spinning reel option, the soap opera that would unfold if it isn't would possibly be the highlight of the winter...

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.

There's no way you can see proof until it happens. To manufacture a quality reel in China will cost way more than 10 bucks Likwid, but the real question is if they continue to invest what it will take and protect their IP in the process.

Regarding the ZeeBass. There's nothing that says a reel should be 100% made in the USA to be good. It's all down to the sourcing and quality they are paying for.

The reference to leather bags is a great one. Due to environmental restrictions there's very little quality leather still tanned in the USA. Buy a quality pair of USA shoes like Allen Edmonds or Alden and they are made from imported components. Just get used to it as it may not be a bad thing.

But also, nearly 100% of the top end leather bags are also faked by the Chinese. They simply don't give a whip and if someone can make money from a fake VS they will.

-spence

I have a link for you Mr. JohnR regarding Van Stall reels. I find this pretty interesting. I am a long time "lurker",first time poster, so not to sure of the rules on links. Or can I send you an e-mail instead?

Rules on links are basically no Spam, no .Self Promotion, no prono . The system automatically filters out the first X amount of posts that have links so people can't take advantage of the site.

Heres a link ---Are these real Van Staals??? or Fakes??? Check the price on these, and where they are located


http://www.diytrade.com/directory/global/buy/products/3072432/Van_Staal_VS_250_LB_Left_Hand_Retrieve_Spinning_Re el.html

Interesting first link :doh: - I would be bleeped if I were VS

%$%$%$%$E!The 70s,Penn Intl knockoff?Indonesia!I'm done buying online.If I ever got an International reel in the mail,that said Made in Indonesia,I would flip the eff out.

Why are all of you so surprised?
van stall is now owned by friggen ZEBCO... Of course this was going to happen.

Great point. It was inevitable. I guess it's safe to say Van Staal Reel line will all be down hill from here. Buy your parts now and stock up!
Who will be next?

I do not care where they are made as long as the quality stays the same but what gets me is that the profit margin for VS increases by X% without a decrease in price.

If you had a mechanic who charged a premium because he had enough experience to fix every problem he ran into...the same mechanic decides to retire and hands the business over to his son who was only getting coffee for him during the day...would you still pay that same premium?? I know I would be going to a different mechanic if the high rates remained.

I am not saying that the components will change but the experience of the worker assembling the reel will decrease which could lead to field failures. In the time it takes the workers to get up to speed folks will switch over to a ZB.

In my industry we are going through the same problem of QA engineers in India (sent all QA testing for a specific product to India) not finding basic bugs even though the tests are the same. IMO there will be a blip in reliability of the reels with the reels being assembled in China.

If you need your VS service it will still be done in Tulsa, OK. Assembling the VS is a cake walk. It is a dumb fishing reel not a part for the aerospace industry. This isn't rocket science .... LOL.

Regardless of where it is made and as long as they use the correct material to make the parts it should be easy. Setting up the tooling is critical. Stealing the design is a joke - any one with a pair of calipers can copy the thing IMHO. There isn't anything special about it.

So many goods are made abroad now. :( Look at all the nice fishing rods coming out of China now for CHEAP $. Top quality Fuji parts: hardloy guides, reel seat, neoprene shrink wrap and so forth for under $100. Tsunami and other brands have adjust THEIR prices, but why NOT some of these other companies?! You can make the $ thru volume OR make it as lower cost and pocket the $. WC Bradley is pocketing the $$ they save for the Van Staal reels made in China. :( Isn't this the American way?! Sorry to be sarcastic. I'm not buying into the newer style VS reels period. If I decide to keep them, I'll stick with the US made ones.

I don't doubt that VS reels made abroad will be the same or better quality of the US made ones. I've seen plenty of US made black VS with mis-matched anodizing out there where it was more of a deep purple than it was black.

Zeebaas aren't flawless. First batch had issues of the spool gasket bottoming out on the rotor underneath. They were made aware of it and fixed it, BUT the stack up tolerances bit them on that one. ;) They were lacking on QC there for sure. You would think that those first hundred would have been "perfect" before they released them out to the dealers! ZB knew what they were up against with anal anglers...... LOL. There must be other glitches with it I am sure. JohhR - your ZB perfect or ya got some issues with yours?! I bet those who did get one are embarassed to admit they are some problems. I know the guy who designed the reel is always interested in getting feedback on the ZB. Retail prices on a longer power handle with a different knob is PAINFUL! OUCH ..... some good $ for one.

Look at the country of origin on consumer goods - 90% of the stuff out there is from Asia. Most of it is fine. They just need to understand we don't USE lead paint any more! It would be extremely hard to buy ALL US made products for everything now a days. :(

Man, it IS going to be a longer winter. :D

It is a dumb fishing reel not a part for the aerospace industry. This isn't rocket science .... LOL.


All the QA folks do in my office is run a script that was created years ago but software bugs are not caught with the folks in India because they are not as familiar with the product.

I understand that assembling a reel is not rocket science but it would super suck if the reel fails because of a newbie forgot to add the sphincter pin caused by a lack of assembly experience.

The folks in Tulsa have made plenty of mistakes with the reels as well as the other service centers for VS in the past! :( Their track record for repairs has been much better and continues to improve. The guy who retired, Dan, knew the product and stayed on to help train them correctly.

For the cost of the Van Staal reels each one should be check more than once in the assembly process. If it isn't then they really need a better QC department. I've seen plenty of VS from few yrs back that were made out of CT that had plenty of issues so what was their excuse then?! LOL. Self-tightening drag nuts were always fun to see! Spool just locked up once a fish started to take out line. :( Two brand new VS200 B were that way: both had to get sent back to the factory. You must have opened up your VS reel before - there aren't a lot of parts in there. ;)

I am more concerned my brakes on my car can fail and create a bigger problem for me than a fishing reel, lurch. :) I always have a spare or two with me. If I know I am going to be hoofing it in a ways, I just take the spare reel in my bag.

When we have software issues at work we are told to call our service people over in India for support. Now a days when I get tech support I always ask them WHERE they are physically located just for my own curiosity. ;)

Since service is being discussed I believe there's a pilot service center being set up for Van Staal. It'll be at River's End, I believe. Cheaper shipping back and forth or local for some. Not sure it's finalized but as far as I know it's supposed to happen.

Assuming there's no nightmares associated with the test run, it's likely you'll see more service centers at shops that are interested.

When we have software issues at work we are told to call our service people over in India for support. Now a days when I get tech support I always ask them WHERE they are physically located just for my own curiosity. ;)

MD is this you??? Some language for adults so kids beware.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8cyCcZ-drM

hope thats true pete,,, if or when they start to be manufactured in china, who will say no to purchacing a VS,,, i am giong to buy three more, then the colection will be complete

That sucks, plain and simple.
At least my US made one will be all the more valuable if/when I sell it.

Lots being said and I did leave room for doubt for my post only being hearsay but with all the commotion I figured I`d try again. I don`t own a VS.

The overall quality of the made in Asia Vs` will boil down to the components. If they try to use inferior metals here and there it will show if it has`nt already and that is that.

Seems like a decent reel from what I`ve heard.

Happy Holidays!
Mike

A NEW COLLECTOR'S DREAM! US made VS reels. Oh boy this is going to be good.

I always kick myself in the ass for not seeing posibilities coming.

Dang I could have bought a couple and made triple my money back after a couple years.

I gotta pay more attention to who is setting up who for a windfall investment.

VanStal, China, cheaply made parts hmmm......anybets on how long they have to go before going all the way to the "remember them" file?:soon:

Then again I still get the laugh of the year out of this! It is too funny, just too funny.:uhuh::rotf2::jump1:

LMFAO, Lurch. That was a good one! :D Thanks for the chuckle dude.....lol.

Oh, I'm getting some great laughs from this thread. :)

Other service centers for VS? At least that one would be on the east coast - a little closer than Tulsa! :) Doesn't mean the turn around could be any better depending on the time of the yr. ;)

I'm in awe that VS doesn't sell a self-service kit any more. They USE to sell one along with the hex service wrenches for the hex side plates. No one bothered to put together a self-service O-ring kit. There are some little tricks with the o-rings, but again it isn't rocket science. They probably don't want to deal with getting sued over it. <g>

A NEW COLLECTOR'S DREAM! US made VS reels. Oh boy this is going to be good.

I always kick myself in the ass for not seeing posibilities coming.

Dang I could have bought a couple and made triple my money back after a couple years.

I gotta pay more attention to who is setting up who for a windfall investment.

VanStal, China, cheaply made parts hmmm......anybets on how long they have to go before going all the way to the "remember them" file?:soon:

Then again I still get the laugh of the year out of this! It is too funny, just too funny.:uhuh::rotf2::jump1:


look at how guitars evolved. Now you have fenders made in Japan, Mexico and pay a premium for ones made in the US. How long before VS outsources their customer service too? You'll be explaining to some guy in India on why your drag is not working.
I love my VS, but this really, really lame.

look at how guitars evolved. Now you have fenders made in Japan, Mexico and pay a premium for ones made in the US. How long before VS outsources their customer service too? You'll be explaining to some guy in India on why your drag is not working.
I love my VS, but this really, really lame.

Actually my Mexican made Telecaster plays better than the American made one. Just had to round off the fret edges and bingo she really burns.

thats funny I played a mex tele once and it blew away my 52 reissue. About 1/3 the price too!

I work in the water treatment industry (water treating chemicals and services for power plants, central heating plants, chilled water plants, wastewater treatment plants, etc.) where product quality must always be 100%, similar to pharmaceuticals. We cannot afford to ship off spec chemical treatments.

My company does not purchase Chinese-origin raw materials because we cannot be sure the quality will be consistent. (Our Chief Chemist of 38 years is Chinese and says "forget it" when we discuss purchasing raw materials from Communist China.) The price of Chinese chemicals is sometimes one half that of our domestic suppliers and the quality is very good....that is, until the 12th order. YIKES!!! That's when you'll experience the real China.

I'm sure good quality Van Staal reels can be manufactured in Communist China but you can count on also getting some real lemons, too. I can't afford to drive 100 miles (one way) to outer Cape Cod to fish the beaches at night and discover that my Chinese made spinning reel does not work.

I own Model 100, 150, and 200 Van Staals with low serial numbers, bought years ago. They have been great (not fished hard because I fish (troll) from a boat all summer long) but I wouldn't buy a VS reel if it was made in China. I cannot afford to take that risk. I'm a fisherman , not a gambler.

Since service is being discussed I believe there's a pilot service center being set up for Van Staal. It'll be at River's End, I believe. Cheaper shipping back and forth or local for some. Not sure it's finalized but as far as I know it's supposed to happen.

Assuming there's no nightmares associated with the test run, it's likely you'll see more service centers at shops that are interested.

If I recall, Reel Ventures had planned to do this also. Hope it works out this go round.

Like Nebe said:
"Why are all of you so surprised?
van stall is now owned by friggen ZEBCO... Of course this was going to happen."
And Bart:
"what a bunch of bullshat. how is the price not going to drop? they obviously moved the operations over there so that the cost of manufacturing would be less.
F VS. i'll be fishing my 704s until they explode.....which isn't going to happen anytime soon..."

I agree with these guys, another once good product is going by the wayside. I remember when they first came out 20(?)yrs ago-serious reels. I knew Zebco was the end.
I bought 6 parts reels for my U.S. Penns so I've got enough parts till I can buy a lathe and milling machine-......and I'll make my own damn reel.

__________________

so what does all this mean?

should i buy my silver 250 ive always wanted this spring? or should i buy the new zeebaas?

Van Staal "Made In China", what did any of you expect to happen?

Personally, I would prefer "Made In The USA", but that's life.

It is a little late to sound the warning bell or to complain. As insideous as the loss of American manufacturing may sound, realize that we did it to ourselves. We demanded the higher wages and benefits, without realizing how good we had it here in the USA compared to the majority of the rest of the world.

We all want better gear so we can fish more in our "free time".

The Chinese don't need to worry about "free time" like we do, the vast majority of them don't have any. Even if they did, they don't have much freedom of choice as to how they might spend it. For the most part they are just happy to have a roof over their heads and something to eat. Like the Boss said, "hunger is a powerful tool". The demand for cheap labor is the #1 reason we can't even bring ourselves to secure the borders, even if that means we give the bad guys easy access to our wide open back door.

All in all, it is simply a question of affordability.

We all vote with our dollars every time we shop. How we spend them determines how the "market" responds. Don't complain about Walmart, etc., they don't build those super stores stuffed with all that cheap crap and manage to keep all the lights on without an abundance of shoppers voting with their dollars.

Listen to what is being said here by many posters: "I hope they lower the VS price". Who doesn't? The "dream" is that with lower price, we can buy more, maybe get that reel we've been itching for but couldn't swing the extra cash to pick up. Will they lower the price? I doubt it. VS reels already carry a sticker price twice what they did a couple of years ago.

What made America great? Our ability to out-manufacture our rivals. This has won all the previous wars, on the world economic front as well as the battlefield. Sad to say, we are losing this war.

How many of you have a workshop? Ever turn a lure? Look in your toolbox my friend. Got any cordless tools? Great, aren't they, but they weren't made in the USA. I doubt very many of you own so much as a hammer "made in the USA" anymore, unless you have an antique. All made in China now. And what about the machine and/or power tools? Not many Bridgeports or Hardinge machines in your basement shop are there? Its all JET, and Grizzly, heck even the Delta stuff has been made in China for a decade.

Am I any better? Nope. I'm going to buy another Van Staal soon, and will keep doing the same until someone can point me in the direction of a "better" alternative, and if it turns out to be cheaper, so much the better. But would I give "made in the USA" any preference? You betcha! That difference was why I bought the VS instead of a Stella or a Saltiga in the first place. Sadly, we just don't have any choice any more.

I emailed them asking if the reel was manufactured in the USA or not and if not, what serial number represents the switch.

For whatever it is worth, here is their response;

All reels are being manufactured in the US today. However, we utilize many of the manufacturing facilities around the world to improve product quality and our technological advantage.

I can not give you serial numbers because the change has not been made.

they moved to china so the price don't go up...they had to...there only saveing us cash really...I'm a believer, amen brother:rotf3:figgers the year I finally decide to get one, they move and now the old used one will go up in price...murphy's law:hee:

Sad though, regardless.

Why? If VS is getting better margins, then that means the reel will be around for that much longer. If quality (for a VS) remains consistent, then why should we care?

17,000 VS reels in circulation IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong).

WTF cares - parts made overseas ain't gonna make a dent in our balance of trade or employment situation. Drop in the bucket.

People ain't gonna stop buying or using VS reels just because they are made in China. This prejudice is irrational.

Togue - good post - pretty much sums it up other than our failing of parenting and education in addition to the lack of manufacturing capability... The Van Staal, at the forefront of American stability and National Pride - Who Knew?

Weewee, the prejudice is not irrational. Our country's lack of desire to deal with, compete, and force a level playing field is irrational.

Weewee, the prejudice is not irrational. Our country's lack of desire to deal with, compete, and force a level playing field is irrational.

uh, we can't force a third-world country with a much lower cost of living (versus the US) to be a "level playing field."

the only thing that China has "fixed" is its currency. Even if the currency is allowed to double vs. the U.S. dollar, we'd still have a huge trade deficit with China.

China is coming along in many respects ... it's the old Red Guard that's holding it back with silly insular regulation. When they die off, changes will accelerate.

China is not going to be like this forever. At some point, the growing Chinese middle class, who have a savings rate of 35% (vs. negative for us) are going to be spending money on American things. Maybe Van Staal reels.

Why? If VS is getting better margins, then that means the reel will be around for that much longer. If quality (for a VS) remains consistent, then why should we care?

17,000 VS reels in circulation IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong).

WTF cares - parts made overseas ain't gonna make a dent in our balance of trade or employment situation. Drop in the bucket.

People ain't gonna stop buying or using VS reels just because they are made in China. This prejudice is irrational.

Just a feel good thing mostly.

But I agree, misplaced. Personally I don't care that much, but there's no question many care VERY much about the move.

...and...unless y'all are chewing on your VS' 24/7, it's unlikely you'll get sick from a Chinese-made VS.

unless, of course, the metal is radioactive. :bc: hey ya never know. :bl2:

this thread comes down to two groups.one group being people who have an "IN" with VS supporting this s hit move, and the other, previous and current owners feeling deceived by the company that is now making their supposed american made 700 dollar reel over in china at a cheaper price.

i think VS should come out from hiding and explain themselves instead of tackle shops always defending them. a lot of people bought VS because of the whole notion of them being American made. I think a lot of people feel cheated by this move..

Van Staal "Made In China", what did any of you expect to happen?

Personally, I would prefer "Made In The USA", but that's life.

It is a little late to sound the warning bell or to complain. As insideous as the loss of American manufacturing may sound, realize that we did it to ourselves. We demanded the higher wages and benefits, without realizing how good we had it here in the USA compared to the majority of the rest of the world.

We all want better gear so we can fish more in our "free time".

The Chinese don't need to worry about "free time" like we do, the vast majority of them don't have any. Even if they did, they don't have much freedom of choice as to how they might spend it. For the most part they are just happy to have a roof over their heads and something to eat. Like the Boss said, "hunger is a powerful tool". The demand for cheap labor is the #1 reason we can't even bring ourselves to secure the borders, even if that means we give the bad guys easy access to our wide open back door.

All in all, it is simply a question of affordability.

We all vote with our dollars every time we shop. How we spend them determines how the "market" responds. Don't complain about Walmart, etc., they don't build those super stores stuffed with all that cheap crap and manage to keep all the lights on without an abundance of shoppers voting with their dollars.

Listen to what is being said here by many posters: "I hope they lower the VS price". Who doesn't? The "dream" is that with lower price, we can buy more, maybe get that reel we've been itching for but couldn't swing the extra cash to pick up. Will they lower the price? I doubt it. VS reels already carry a sticker price twice what they did a couple of years ago.

What made America great? Our ability to out-manufacture our rivals. This has won all the previous wars, on the world economic front as well as the battlefield. Sad to say, we are losing this war.

How many of you have a workshop? Ever turn a lure? Look in your toolbox my friend. Got any cordless tools? Great, aren't they, but they weren't made in the USA. I doubt very many of you own so much as a hammer "made in the USA" anymore, unless you have an antique. All made in China now. And what about the machine and/or power tools? Not many Bridgeports or Hardinge machines in your basement shop are there? Its all JET, and Grizzly, heck even the Delta stuff has been made in China for a decade.

Am I any better? Nope. I'm going to buy another Van Staal soon, and will keep doing the same until someone can point me in the direction of a "better" alternative, and if it turns out to be cheaper, so much the better. But would I give "made in the USA" any preference? You betcha! That difference was why I bought the VS instead of a Stella or a Saltiga in the first place. Sadly, we just don't have any choice any more.

Spot on Togue. The people who complain about everything being built overseas should be the first to stop shopping at Walmart.

If parts start busting look at where it breaks and you can tell if it was cast or solid stock. Lots of places machine sand cast parts - bodies of the reels & spools for example. If it was machined you can look at the inside of it or the bottom of it and see where it was cast. No hiding machine marks or cast marks. :)

Huge cost difference between cast parts & cnc parts!!! Companies look for ways to save money so watch out.

Pay attention to the anodizing as well. ;)

Time will tell what will happen.

uh, we can't force a third-world country with a much lower cost of living (versus the US) to be a "level playing field."
We sure can if we decide not to trade with them or place restrictions on trade...yea, water under the bridge...but.

When you're trading with a country that has zero IP protection, little environmental or worker protection laws etc... that's not a level playing field.

Granted, some of this we've done to our selves by regulating many types of manufacturing out of the USA.

-spence

When you're trading with a country that has zero IP protection...

Agree, but how does this affect Van Staal? China has come so far in twenty years ... their mindset and legal system won't change overnight. Remember - there was no such thing as IP under Mao, because property belonged to the State. Capital won't stay put if IP laws aren't put into place. This is changing, thanks in part to Chinese folks who have worked in the U.S. and gone back home to help reform regulation.


little environmental or worker protection laws


China is undergoing its own version of the Industrial Revolution ... a bit late. They are wallowing in their own pollution and are paying the price, just as England and the United States have before. Remember Love Canal? Our own EPA didn't exist until December 1970. They will come to realize that they are poisoning themselves. It is interesting to note that the Chinese government will be spending something close to $400 BILLION big ones to get some of the country cleaned up prior to the 2008 Olympics. Ironically, many U.S. companies stand to benefit from this cleanup activity, which is just getting started. There isn't a day that goes by when some western talking head is complaining about the oppressive smog in Shanghai. The folks in Beijing hear that loud and clear.

worker protection? again, all this comes with time! nothing stays static ... chalk these up to growing pains!

now, i'm not defending China. but, understand, a hundredfold growth of industrical activity within two decades ... that takes its toll on the Chinese too!

you can't pin all of this on Van Staal.

!

Blah, bah, blah snipped
All true and I agree with it in reality.

But there's a big difference between the industrial revolution or even the big manufactuing rise in the middle part of this centrury. That being a more global economy is putting even more pressure on China (and other developing nations for that matter) and that global businesses (including a lot of US businesses) are directly involved with Chinese (or other) operations.

There's a good reason why US companies get called to the mat when news of rampant workforce or environmental problems exist in operations overseen by US companies. It's as if they're getting away with something by hiding the behavior overseas.

This of course, I don't blame on Zebco :zup:

-spence

this thread comes down to two groups.one group being people who have an "IN" with VS supporting this s hit move, and the other, previous and current owners feeling deceived by the company that is now making their supposed american made 700 dollar reel over in china at a cheaper price.

i think VS should come out from hiding and explain themselves instead of tackle shops always defending them. a lot of people bought VS because of the whole notion of them being American made. I think a lot of people feel cheated by this move..

I doubt you’ll hear anything Bart, at least online, and I’ll tell you why I think that (and this is only my opinion).

Increasingly, “good” press on forums is no press. And once you are getting press (good or bad) on the forums the best case scenario is that it falls off the main page and is forgotten. If you get praise you want to take it and run for the hills before it all goes horribly wrong. Tackle Direct getting murdered on SOL a little ways back is a perfect example. Not only did good press spiral into a hate fest it was also a perfect example of where someone from Tackle Direct probably shouldn’t have even responded as it just prolonged what looked to me was a somewhat undeserved beating. I felt bad for them even as a competitor because the SWE could be one mis-shipped package or screw up away from that sort of nightmare. No one is perfect.

Now simultaneously I’m not saying there should be any sort of censorship and people shouldn’t hold back their experiences. That’s exactly what’s good about forums. I’m just pointing out how a lot people look at it.

It’s kind of like at work, unless you’re lucky enough to work in a place that constantly recognizes what you do well. Most people probably rarely hear about it when they do something right but hear about it EVERY time they screw up. No one seemed to give a damn VS is working on setting up a service center at Rivers End, for example.

Just think of what a formal VS response to all this would do. A thread like that would probably have a half-life of a thousand years barring a lock from a moderator.

Bottomline is manufacturers, plug builders, and anyone else simultaneously enjoys, but more often then not fears seeing their name mentioned in forums, even when it’s good. It’s too bad because most come to the conclusion (and they’re right most of the time) that no response is a better response. Which really defeats the whole purpose and positives of online forums.

I hindsight I probably shouldn’t be responding to this thread now… :bsod: :hee:

Lots of foolish, uninformed comments here. We like what we like,regardless of where it is made. Stella, Saltiga, Abu. Where are they made? Are they cast or machined? What do you think costs more Einstein?Seems some folks have an axe to grind for whatever reason.A$700 reel better be good but there is NOTHING that does not break down with salt,sand or sun.I have seen the accurate spinners.... I have seen the saltiga loyalists upset too.Alberto broke a reel....wow.How could that happen?Swim with a reel,do nothing to maintain it,we'll see who can fish longest. Sure I wish it was still made in the USA I'm proud of my country. Is there something wrong with this? I also would like to see WET (white entetainment television).This does not mean I am a racist,just proud of my race.Lots of stuff slipping away we can't seem to control,add this to the list. Hold your breath because I hear we will be getting some interesting news regarding the ZeeBaas. You heard it here first.
MERRY CHRISTMAS

completely off the topic, but what would we watch on WET?
hockey games and banjo music?monster trucks
back to topic- have fished shimano for years and have always been happy. been drooling over the vs for a while and my plans to buy one this winter have not changed.

completely off the topic, but what would we watch on WET?

re-runs, silly.

hee-haw
johnny carson
gilligan's island
the brady bunch

i could go on.

:hihi:

Bottomline is manufacturers, plug builders, and anyone else simultaneously enjoys, but more often then not fears seeing their name mentioned in forums, even when it’s good. It’s too bad because most come to the conclusion (and they’re right most of the time) that no response is a better response. Which really defeats the whole purpose and positives of online forums.

I hindsight I probably shouldn’t be responding to this thread now… :bsod: :hee:


Ducks falls from the ceiling. It is unfortunate but this is often true. How does one fix / prevent / get around this? Not sue but I "THINK" the answer has been successfully applied by certain companies "INVOLVED" in the community. I say think as my experience in this regard is pretty limited to here on S-B. Just a couple examples of places that can weather a negative blurb rather swimmingly are SWE and M&Ds. Cases where something's wrong are extremely rare and usually zero fault of the shop but a fully supportive and RATIONAL response from levelheaded members of the community (and level headed responses from the shops themselves) puts a positive light on doing business with that place. A legitimate turning of a negative into a positive...

re-runs, silly.

hee-haw
johnny carson
gilligan's island
the brady bunch

i could go on.

:hihi:
thanks, forgot about johnny and gilligan. was afraid i'd be stuck watching curling and australian rules football on ESPNW.

Pete is right but on the other hand many sites have an obssesion with a few sponsors and if anything negative is brought up concerning them it is shot down. What if I were to say that I will never buy another aquaskinz dry top because I have owned two that both leaked within the first two weeks? I know I am not the only one with this complaint but yet you never hear about it. Some companies have the internet on lockdown, say something negative about said company and be completely bashed. Look at some of the threads in the sponsors specials, everytime a new thread is started by one company it is the same loyal followers that are quick to reply.

alot of interesting post,togue nailed it pretty good.here's one to ponder,when ford closed some plants last year and union workers lost there jobs and towns became wastelands,ford posted a sign at workers parking lots stating only american made vehicles allowed in lots.just think if wal-mart only sold made in USA alot more mfg jobs and no china.

ZeeBaas. Made down the street from me.

Zebco/Van Staal can keep their China crap.

ZeeBaas. Made down the street from me.

Zebco/Van Staal can keep their China crap.


Assembled from parts from where?

Exactly...most everything today is made from components sourced around the world.

And while I'm moderately anti-China in theory, it's not fair to label goods from China as "crap". There certainly is a lot of crap for sure, but for some goods they can deliver top shelf quality.

I was astounded when I saw that Ralph Lauren was having hand knit sweaters made in China for his most expensive Purple Label line of clothing. They are a thousand dollars each.

-spence

China's fairly experienced when it comes to textiles, Spence.

remember where silk came from, thousands of years ago.

ZeeBaaS look sweet. Last time I looked I only saw it as a prototype, nice to see them for sale.

Now, if I could only win Mega Bucks I'd buy one or two......

China's fairly experienced when it comes to textiles, Spence.

remember where silk came from, thousands of years ago.
Yes and no. Sure they can make silk, but their ability to process cashmere into quality yarn is still lacking. There are very few Chinese houses that can produce quality tailored clothing on the same scale as Italy. Etc, etc...

-spence