FWIW there will now be a .2 handicap for shore anglers instead of .3

Also, yo-yo fishing is not allowed.

Whats a yo-yo?

they are round annd go up and down, I still have an early 50's duncon.:biglaugh:

Whats a yo-yo?

If you don't know then you needn't worry. You won't be in violation.:walk:

FWIW there will now be a .2 handicap for shore anglers instead of .3

Also, yo-yo fishing is not allowed.

Not surprised. Next year it il be .25

If you don't know then you needn't worry. You won't be in violation.:walk:

Toungo-In-Cheeko :lama:

just divide into two catagories already....

OTW is adamant about keeping one category and maintaining their imaginary handicap. Similar to golf or bowling. It doesn't seem as though a shore and a boat category would be unreasonable.Someday I am sure they will present a reasonable format.The adjustment made in the handicap index will certainly prove to be useless now that they have banned yo-yo fishing from the boat category.
I wonder why there are two divisions yet they try to handicap one of them and offer one prize.

I wonder why there are two divisions yet they try to handicap one of them and offer one prize.

That's a very good question.



I am not even gonna comment on the yo-yo thing

Whats a yo-yo?

anyone who fishes w/redlite is a yo-yo....

The adjustment made in the handicap index will certainly prove to be useless now that they have banned yo-yo fishing from the boat category.

There are still plenty of ways to catch quality bass w/o yo-yo rigs Chris... unless we have a year like this past again, I bet a boat club takes it in 08'

anyone who fishes w/redlite is a yo-yo....

Thats for sure

I wonder why there are two divisions yet they try to handicap one of them and offer one prize.

Because one truck is cheaper than two.

i don't think they want to dilute things by breaking it up. the idea of the tournament is to build interest and bring awareness to the magazine and sponsores. they probably think, and i agree, that further breaking things up would only make it less interesting, desireable and competetive from a club perspective. simply comparing the boat and surf catches from the last few years shows that the factor is required and that 1.2 seams fair. and at least with the factor, there's a chance that a real club (or website :hihi:) can win over a group of commercial guys who create what is essentially an all star team.

remember, its strictly for bragging purposes. no prizes are awarded to the club winners. all the prizes are in categories that are broken up by boat or surf or junior.

Yo Yo Ma will be disappointed! But he'll live with the rule changes.

Toungo-In-Cheeko :lama:


Rosetta stones paying off huh :hihi:

Imo its a good rule, changing it to a more even playing feild. Though impossible to prove without evidence, are they going to implement a lie detector test?

The FLW tournament had a lie detector test...

There are still plenty of ways to catch quality bass w/o yo-yo rigs Chris... unless we have a year like this past again, I bet a boat club takes it in 08'

The majority of my big fish came from shore this past year so I understand there are different methods(too bad I entered the boat division last year,that won't happen again).I would not underestimate the amount of anglers from the competetive clubs(#^&#^&#^&#^&s,Linesider,Striper) who use the yo-yo technique for their big fish,therefore the handicap adjustment will be will not level the field as intended IMO. Time will tell.

How do you ban something by the honor system? Why go through the trouble of making a rule that's unenforceable to start with?

Weighmaster: "You didn't catch that fish on a yo-yo rig, did you?"

Entrant: "Hell no"

Do they expect guys fishing for the same team to blow the whistle on each other?

It's symbolic and an empty rule. The worst kind of rule you can make. One that relies on self-enforcement by the entrants. All show and no substance.

I'd let yo-yoing be an legal method as long as the state kept it a legal method.

i don't think they want to dilute things by breaking it up. the idea of the tournament is to build interest and bring awareness to the magazine and sponsores. they probably think, and i agree, that further breaking things up would only make it less interesting, desireable and competetive from a club perspective. simply comparing the boat and surf catches from the last few years shows that the factor is required and that 1.2 seams fair. and at least with the factor, there's a chance that a real club (or website :hihi:) can win over a group of commercial guys who create what is essentially an all star team.

remember, its strictly for bragging purposes. no prizes are awarded to the club winners. all the prizes are in categories that are broken up by boat or surf or junior.

If you look at how the tournament is set up it is obvious that it caters to two divisions.Prizes are different for shore and boat and then they try to marry the two divisions with a handicap system for fishing which is for golfers.I realize the two categories historically can not compete and like you said no prizes are awarded so essentially they would have to buy another trophy.
As far as not diluting the tournament,you answered your own question.Who among us would be less interested in the Cup if it had two categories?IMO it would serve to only generate more interest because the numbers and results would be real, not a magical formula that awards prizes based on a handicap.The club that caught the most pounds of fish would actually be the winner in their respective categories rather than a victory based on adjustments and formulas.
The idea that all boat entries are commercial fishermen is also a fantasy to make shore guys feel like more of an underdog.Surely there are a greater number of comms amongst the boats but there are commercial shore guys competing also.I would estimate the number of comm. guys in the boat division to be 50%.What exactly qualifies you to brand a certain team allstars?Obviously one guy got a bunch of his friends together to form a competetive team.How does that differ from your team(or website)which,unless I am mistaken offers a spot on the roster to anyone who "logs in."

How do you ban something by the honor system? Why go through the trouble of making a rule that's unenforceable to start with?

Weighmaster: "You didn't catch that fish on a yo-yo rig, did you?"

Entrant: "Hell no"

Do they expect guys fishing for the same team to blow the whistle on each other?

It's symbolic and an empty rule. The worst kind of rule you can make. One that relies on self-enforcement by the entrants. All show and no substance.

I'd let yo-yoing be an legal method as long as the state kept it a legal method.

Unenforceable maybe, but I know the Captain on our team won't allow a fish to be entered that was caught outside the parameters of the system.Now the decision to even enter the tournament is one that will be called into question. I am sure Team #^&#^&#^&#^&'s as well as Linesider B&B is also considering skipping a year.Perhaps this is the only way to get On The Water to make it a fair tournament.Personally ,I think their strategy will backfire and the number of entries will diminish until they wake up and allow teams to compete on a level playing field.The majority of the boat teams don't recognize anyone as the winner other than who weighed in the most pounds anyhow.

If splitting it into seperate divisions means we kill twice as many big fish then I'd rather see them leave it the way it is and just keep adjusting the formula to get something thats close to even. The more years worth of data they have, the more accurate the handicap will get.

It also nice to see OTW take a stand against Yo Yo'ing. The commercial guys are still going to do it, as that's how many of them are earning a living. So if this removes some of those Commercial fish from the contest I'm all for that, as the # of fish they get to keep/cull thru has always been an unfair advantage.

I do like competing against the boat guys, its kind of like Red Sox vs Yankees. Boat guys are obviously the yankees...

The sox don't need a handicap.They win like real men.

The sox don't need a handicap.They win like real men.

spoken like a true champ :hihi: all behind you on that one :jump:

I will not be joining back up this year, they need to get a set set of rules before they decide what the hell they are doing.

1st they make you sign up Boat or Shore, I fish both the first year I singed up as a boat entry caught all my big fish from shore
next year I sign up as a shore entry I catch all my big fish from my boat.

I haven't liked it sense day one and I am all done with it

1st they make you sign up Boat or Shore, I fish both the first year I singed up as a boat entry caught all my big fish from shore
next year I sign up as a shore entry I catch all my big fish from my boat.


I also fish both, and am questioning why I cannot declare how the fish was caught when I see the weighmaster. Despite the team's success from shore last year, ( I am fishing >75% from the boat), I am railroaded into registering one way or the other. Stinks. I want to be able to play both fields. Are they looking for another entry fee? Or do they feel this is the only way to keep a guy from weighing a boat caught as a shore caught???

Separate shore/boat divisions makes all the sense in the world. As Chris said, all it requires is having some trophy company make a duplicate Cup that says "Winning Shore Club". It doesn't devalue the two Cups already awarded. If you want to fish both, an extra $25 won't break anyone. Many people enter both the All-Tackle and Fly Rod divisions of the MV Derby.

They want to make it just like the Schaeffer Cup, but it's already been tweaked so that it bears little resemblance. :huh:

I will not be joining back up this year, they need to get a set set of rules before they decide what the hell they are doing.

1st they make you sign up Boat or Shore, I fish both the first year I singed up as a boat entry caught all my big fish from shore
next year I sign up as a shore entry I catch all my big fish from my boat.

I haven't liked it sense day one and I am all done with it

bob,
you don't like anything you grumpy bastard.

i'm happy whether shore and boat are seperate or not but if they are together I'd rather see the yo-yo'ing included. Us shore guys already get the handicap advantage. I'd also like the oppurtunity to beat the best rod and reel anglers and the alot of the commercial boat guys that use that method seem to fall into that category.

It is a perverted system to say the least. And I'm sure yo-yoing will still go on with some participants. What they should do is eliminate the boat division/shore division split. Also commercials have an advantage in that they can weigh any of the 30 fish they catch versus a non-commercial who can only weigh in his largest of his 2 legally caught fish. Tourney is fun but flawed.

Personally, I think the tourney is just about right as it stands now. With the surf conversion lowered to 1.2, it levels the field pretty closely IMO.
OTW has been pretty diligent in terms of assessing the competition and making needed adjustments based on the data generated from the tourney. Remember, the tourney has only been in existence for two seasons and is continually being evaluated and tweaked for the better. OTW does listen and respond to the concerns of the participants. You can’t expect them to turn this thing on its head and start from scratch each season. My feeling is with time the necessary adjustments will be made based on the data, which will result in a level competitive platform for anyone who enters.
For the people who are questioning the system’s fairness, it’s really a fun tournament as far as the team totals go and anything can happen on a given year, particularly from the surf. Look at S-B’s first two years if you need any further proof. The boat heavy teams will consistently produce the biggest poundage each season, while surf heavy teams results will be lumpier.
Eliminating yo-yo ing is merely a conservation minded gesture. Its not going to reduce any team's abillity to produce poundage IMO.

Separate shore/boat divisions makes all the sense in the world. As Chris said, all it requires is having some trophy company make a duplicate Cup that says "Winning Shore Club". It doesn't devalue the two Cups already awarded. If you want to fish both, an extra $25 won't break anyone. Many people enter both the All-Tackle and Fly Rod divisions of the MV Derby.

They want to make it just like the Schaeffer Cup, but it's already been tweaked so that it bears little resemblance. :huh:

From the OTW rules;
All entrants must register in either the BOAT, SHORE or YOUTH division when signing up for the tournament. For the duration of the tournament, an entrant can only weigh in fish for the division in which he/she is registered.

I think this precludes an angler from participating in both divisions...

The sox don't need a handicap.They win like real men.


Ya but take the filming away from the Pats an how did they do...
Thats right 18-1
:jump1::rotf2:

Personally, I think the tourney is just about right as it stands now. With the surf conversion lowered to 1.2, it levels the field pretty closely IMO.
OTW has been pretty diligent in terms of assessing the competition and making needed adjustments based on the data generated from the tourney. Remember, the tourney has only been in existence for two seasons and is continually being evaluated and tweaked for the better. OTW does listen and respond to the concerns of the participants. You can’t expect them to turn this thing on its head and start from scratch each season. My feeling is with time the necessary adjustments will be made based on the data, which will result in a level competitive platform for anyone who enters.
For the people who are questioning the system’s fairness, it’s really a fun tournament as far as the team totals go and anything can happen on a given year, particularly from the surf. Look at S-B’s first two years if you need any further proof. The boat heavy teams will consistently produce the biggest poundage each season, while surf heavy teams results will be lumpier.
Eliminating yo-yo ing is merely a conservation minded gesture. Its not going to reduce any team's abillity to produce poundage IMO.


Most sensible post in this thread..
Must be the golfer in him..
Question,, where u in the contest the last 2 yrs..??
Last yr I had my own personal numbers restictions.I killed enough bass in my lifetime. I wanted to give some of em a break.So instead of killing 2 per day as the law allows.I only kept one good one an let the others go.Last yr, 4 of my 5-30 lb fish could have been upgraded a few lbs at least..
In the past 2 yrs I have 9-30 lb pins.
For what...that is the real question..
I was gonna stay out of it last yr an the Jersey team got me to enter.
I'm gonna take a long hard look at joining again this yr.I might join for the crack at a VS monthly prize but I doubt I will kill any more fish for the sake of the striper cup thing.Yes IMO,a striper is worth a 700 dollar reel..
I think they do a nice job an all.I just like to think this is my natural progression as a sportsman..I really don't feel I need to do it anymore.
Good Luck to all that do enter...I hope u find what Ur looking for..

From the OTW rules;
All entrants must register in either the BOAT, SHORE or YOUTH division when signing up for the tournament. For the duration of the tournament, an entrant can only weigh in fish for the division in which he/she is registered.

I think this precludes an angler from participating in both divisions...

Won`t stop boat caught claimed as surf :uhuh:

[QUOTE=Back Beach;
Eliminating yo-yo ing is merely a conservation minded gesture. Its not going to reduce any team's abillity to produce poundage IMO.[/QUOTE]

Mike, eels were almost put on the endangered species list.If they had been,I am sure it would not reduce your ability to produce poundage either right?

Soooooooooooo

Does that mean that my, hypothetical, 35# Shore Division Striper
becomes a 42# Striper :claps: :drool: :drool: :claps:? For the Tourney Poundage Totals, only right?

Wouldn't change things as i like the idea of going for one CUP, winner take all. Team and idividual awards are fine just the way they are, but I would extend the deadline until Oct, or Nov.

I also like the separate divisions and making us declare either/or to encourage fair and reasonable competition between the divisions; as we all know that Boat feesh doan count/are one helluvalot easier to land and stay on LAAAAHGE with the aid of electronics, fiberglass, twin mercs, and the added leverage that the boat provides. Not trying to stir the pot, merely stating why I agree that a handicap is necessary and equitable.

I also think that the Pounder Pins for C&R are a nice touch to encourage and promote those of us who agree with NIB's Philosophy. I, too, am debating whether or not i want to kill more feesh; however the shot at excellent gear AND a Toyota Tundra within the fishery mngmt regulations is both exciting during the competition and spiking to the adrenylin factor as the deadline approaches. I know that it gave me some extra ooomph as Sept rolled around last year :btu: :btu:.

GREAT Tournament!! GREAT Fishing!!
GO S-B..................GO S-B!!! Back to Back, Gentlemen??

Mike, eels were almost put on the endangered species list.If they had been,I am sure it would not reduce your ability to produce poundage either right?

No eels would alter my approach from a surf fishing point of view without question.
IMO, it’s easier to circumvent obstacles when boat fishing than surf fishing. My point is, they could ban the yo yo technique, but there are still a number of good ways to fish bunker besides the yo yo rig.
The only other suggestion I have for leveling the field would be to limit the team entries to one fish per angler versus the two they allowed last year. The downside to this is obviously that some teams don't have ten members.

Troll it. Three way it. Chunk it.Fish it live.But if you are in fast moving water with a lot of structure and the fish are down 25' or more what is the best way to present the bait?Anyway,it's off topic now and I certainly don't expect OTW to change so I guess we will find a way to make due.The yo-yo thing doesn't bother me as much as the way the tournament is formatted but I doubt it will prevent participation. Rant over.

From the OTW rules;
All entrants must register in either the BOAT, SHORE or YOUTH division when signing up for the tournament. For the duration of the tournament, an entrant can only weigh in fish for the division in which he/she is registered.

I think this precludes an angler from participating in both divisions...


Ross, I realize that those are the present rules. I was proposing letting people enter both if they set up separate shore and boat divisions. Trying to tweak a "handicap" to balance the scale is just an exercise in futility, IMO. The perfect tournament hasn't been invented yet. You'll always be able to look at any set of rules and say, "I think that XXXX would be better". Except that OTW is tinkering with it trying to get that elusive "perfection". This is the third year of OTW and the third year they've had entirely different rules. Most people feel that separate boat and shore divisions would have been the right way to go from the start. That would eliminate trying to calculate what a fair handicap for shorebound anglers would be. Even though sb-com benefitted from it, saying that a shore caught fish is worth 30% more weight than a boat fish is ridiculous.

Up until 1984, the MV Derby didn't have boat and shore divisions for bass, and if you look at the history, shore guys won as often, if not more often, than boaters. Guys like #^&#^&#^&#^& Hathaway, Ralph Grant, Stevie Morris, and the Mad Russian, DeSomov, were surfcasters.

Ross, I realize that those are the present rules. I was proposing letting people enter both if they set up separate shore and boat divisions. Trying to tweak a "handicap" to balance the scale is just an exercise in futility, IMO. The perfect tournament hasn't been invented yet. You'll always be able to look at any set of rules and say, "I think that XXXX would be better". Except that OTW is tinkering with it trying to get that elusive "perfection". This is the third year of OTW and the third year they've had entirely different rules. Most people feel that separate boat and shore divisions would have been the right way to go from the start. That would eliminate trying to calculate what a fair handicap for shorebound anglers would be. Even though sb-com benefitted from it, saying that a shore caught fish is worth 30% more weight than a boat fish is ridiculous.

Up until 1984, the MV Derby didn't have boat and shore divisions for bass, and if you look at the history, shore guys won as often, if not more often, than boaters. Guys like #^&#^&#^&#^& Hathaway, Ralph Grant, Stevie Morris, and the Mad Russian, DeSomov, were surfcasters.

Then I misunderstood you, Mike, and stand corrected. I had thought you meant that an angler could enter in both divisions. Your proposal of allowing this, is a good one.

Under the current system, I will be entering as a boat angler. In the event that I get a worthy fish from the surf, I will have to enter it as a boat fish......

If you are entered as a boat guy , you can't even enter a shore caught fish at all can you?
Anyway , I think OTW is doing a good job and letting it evolve. I think they made good progress and ran a good tournament the first two years.

I still disagree with the point some of you are making. There are separate boat and surf categories, are there not?
Prizes are awarded for each division by week, month, and angler of the year for both surf and boat.
Correct me, but it sounds like you guys are contesting the fairness of the team totals, which I think are very fair. You do need some kind of shore/boat handicap. Remember each year pans out differently too with regard to what's available and which club benefits the most. The so called "best" club won't win every year due to changes in fish availability in their waters. With the exception of S-B, most of the clubs range is very small, thus opportunties they have depend on what's available in their local waters.

With either case the losers will always cry foul and say it wasn't fair, which is B.S. to me. Get in there and fight for the cup for god's sake!:rumble:

Its not supposed to be easy.

I still disagree with the point some of you are making. There are separate boat and surf categories, are there not?
Prizes are awarded for each division by week, month, and angler of the year for both surf and boat.
Correct me, but it sounds like you guys are contesting the fairness of the team totals, which I think are very fair. You do need some kind of shore/boat handicap. Remember each year pans out differently too with regard to what's available and which club benefits the most. The so called "best" club won't win every year due to changes in fish availability in their waters. With the exception of S-B, most of the clubs range is very small, thus opportunties they have depend on what's available in their local waters.

With either case the losers will always cry foul and say it wasn't fair, which is B.S. to me. Get in there and fight for the cup for god's sake!:rumble:

Its not supposed to be easy.

Mike,I don't see where anyone is claiming they want it to be easier.This isn't sour grapes, rather a thread you chose to participate in discussing the rule changes for the UPCOMING Cup.There is no easy answer here.Like you say,certain teams have inherent advantages due to the number of anglers as well as being more spread out. Nothing wrong with this type of advantage IMO.Maybe proposing 5 boat fish and 5 surf fish per team would be fair.Who knows?Maybe paying a registration fee and using the honor system as to whether it was boat or surf caught would be a more adult way to operate. Perhaps introducing a Ladies division for adult and junior anglers may be a progressive idea.I think you are correct to an extent;no matter what the handicap index is someone will gripe.I don't remember the numbers but I think by August 1st last year S-B had around 490 pounds using the handicap system.That is 10 ,49 pound fish.Tournament was over already.I can certainly see why you would consider it to be very fair.Each year the bait and migratory habits of the fish will change thus giving a certain division a competetive edge which will result in the index being called into question.Of course there are separate categories for the prizes as you state and this is solely to accomadate the sponsors.However I can't think of a single legitimate reason for combining the two categories for the Cup.If there are other fishing (not golf)tournaments presently run using the handicap system please enlighten me.BTW, my numbers from shore last year dwarfed my boat numbers.Thanks in part to you.

The way I see it is On the Water Runs a Tournament. They set the Rules. When you sign up you agree to abide by those rules......It doesn't say anywhere in the rules that you will abide by them and then piss and moan about them when the tourney ends.

I give them credit for at least listening to you and trying to change the rules the following year to make people happy.

Bottom line is if you don't like the rules for that year.....don't send in your registration fee. And if you do register you play by their rules and smile the whole time and say Thanx for putting this together for us. :hee: (see I'm Smiling)

August 1st last year S-B had around 490 pounds using the handicap system.That is 10 ,49 pound fish.Tournament was over already.I can certainly see why you would consider it to be very fair.

Chris,

The 1.3 for a surf fish is way too much IMO. Maybe I didn't clearly state that. The 1.2, perhaps even 1.15 would be better, which it looks like they are doing for 2008. I am in total agreement with lowering the ratio. In 2006 it was lopsided in favor of the boat clubs due to no conversion ratio for the surf guys.
As far as combining surf and boat for the teams, it makes perfect sense to me to do that becuase its just the cup. No big prizes awarded, its for fun, and many clubs feature both surf and boat anglers. They should be able to compete together. Utilizing a handicap is the most effective way to allow this to happen. Its like an ABCD golf tournament. The handicap comes into play as it allows participants from different capabilities to play together on an even field.
Can't wait for the next installment of those jamaican jerk chicken wings. I'm up every night thinking about them.:banano:

The way I see it is On the Water Runs a Tournament. They set the Rules. When you sign up you agree to abide by those rules......It doesn't say anywhere in the rules that you will abide by them and then piss and moan about them when the tourney ends.

I give them credit for at least listening to you and trying to change the rules the following year to make people happy.

Bottom line is if you don't like the rules for that year.....don't send in your registration fee. And if you do register you play by their rules and smile the whole time and say Thanx for putting this together for us. :hee: (see I'm Smiling)

exactly

The way I see it is On the Water Runs a Tournament. They set the Rules. When you sign up you agree to abide by those rules......It doesn't say anywhere in the rules that you will abide by them and then piss and moan about them when the tourney ends.

I give them credit for at least listening to you and trying to change the rules the following year to make people happy.

Bottom line is if you don't like the rules for that year.....don't send in your registration fee. And if you do register you play by their rules and smile the whole time and say Thanx for putting this together for us. :hee: (see I'm Smiling)

words of wisdom from dad

I agree also.I actually considered this to be an intelligent discussion.Perhaps discussions like this may have influenced the rules changes in the past.The same may happen moving forward.

Last yr I had my own personal numbers restictions.I killed enough bass in my lifetime. I wanted to give some of em a break.So instead of killing 2 per day as the law allows.I only kept one good one an let the others go.Last yr, 4 of my 5-30 lb fish could have been upgraded a few lbs at least..
In the past 2 yrs I have 9-30 lb pins.
For what...that is the real question..

now thats the most sensible statement I've heard outta any of US in a long time....

in other words-
if it wasn't for this tournament, would you be killing all those fish??

I don't wanna get down on people for how/why they choose to fish in the tourny, just think we should all take a good look at whether or not its worth killing all the "best fish" we catch during the season?? would you kill 'em if you weren't entered???

think about it..................

No Offense to anyone from this board who I know or those of you that enjoy participating but....Screw "On The Water" and their kill fish for profit, hypocritical tournament!

Or maybe they're not hypocritical...Do they? Or have they ever encouraged conservation of the resource? I don't know....

Do they? Or have they ever encouraged conservation of the resource?

I'm pretty sure that is why they give out catch and release pins to encourage conservation of the resource.

Like someone above stated it is a "fun" tournament. I dont necessarily like the tourney set-up in its entirety but they dont force me to enter it either. Thats obligatory on my part.

The reason that there are not 2 trophies is that many teams have people that boat fish , and shore fish. Msba I am sure is one of them. You will never make everyone happy, only pacify some.