I am sure JR might move this thread to another venue on the site but first I wanted everyone to know another company, "Blue H USA", is proposing another wind farm 23 miles off the vineyard. Before it is moved though everyone should be aware, whether your pro or con on wind power, what is happening. There is a third farm in the wings also. That one is being drawn up by Jay Cashman, real estate developer of Boston. I believe Cashman also did some of the Big Dig.

They are all lining up, because Massachusetts is giving away free of charge our land under the ocean in which to install these towers. Where else but Massachusetts do you get to start a business, and get free land with the best water view in the world to start a new endeavour.

I think what you'll see in regard to at least the last two proposals is that the rights will be secured and the resold to others companies. Cashman has been near bankruptcy in the last few years selling off some of his prize properties to stave off the banks. He is "very connected" in Boston.

At least one thing is for certain, long liners and trawlers will be going elsewhere because they wont have any room to set thier gear out. That could be a good thing.

Where else but Massachusetts do you get to start a business, and get free land with the best water view in the world to start a new endeavour.
So you're saying that government incentives to business are a liberal idea?

-spence

I thinks Wind Farms should be installed and that we are missing the boat. Just do so in a way that won't wreck the fishing. I'd even be OK for doing them on Monomoy provided they blades also thing out the seals and seagulls

I also think that Spence has yet again made something twisted political :deadhorse::bshake:or is that political twisted

Build it .. :btu:

Im interested in hearing more about it. Unfortunatly i dont think it will decrese my energy bill. Even if it didnt i am still in favor because of the environmental benefits. Like all things there is bad with the good, thats why its such a hot topic.

You could propose a free money machine for all residents, and it would be met with stiff opposition.

I also think that Spence has yet again made something twisted political :deadhorse::bshake:or is that political twisted
Not at all, just questioning Swimmer's assertion that this was a MA thing. They give incentives to oil companies down south to drill under the ocean. What's the diff?

I'd be more concerned with how practical wind farms really are.

-spence

I think wind farms are pretty practical. Most of the issues with wind farms (other than direct impact on the local area) are concerns of efficiency. How efficient and consistent is the power generation? Well efficiency has come a long way and look at the recent costs of fossil fuels. Consistency comes from having more farms spread out geographically so that lack of wind in one area is balanced by higher sustained winds at that particular time in another.

I live in the hills of Western Massachusetts. For years now there has been an effort made to promote wind energy on the tops of our most scenic mountains. Up until very recently there has been strong opposition to cluttering up the scenery with wind towers, mostly by the NIMBY people. Not In My Back Yard.

In this area is Jiminy Peak. Jiminy is a year around resort ski area on the Mass NY border that rivals those major ski areas of southern Vermont. Jiminy recently erected a huge wind turbine. Jiminy's wind turbine is reported to provide half of their power requirements. This is a considerable savings as they are a huge consumer of electricity.

In my humble opinion, the turbine is not offensive to my eyes in the least. I look around and see far more offensive sites. I loudly applaud the effort to go to green energy.

The NIMBY peoples have been quiet and public reaction in generable has been favorable. This may be due to $3/gal gas prices and $3.25/heating oil prices and those both constantly rising. The day of our chosing oil as first choice for energy is obviosly no longer sensible. I do not beleive we will ever see cheap oil again.

Recently Jiminy announced they were forming a company to provide financing and expertise to municipalities and other entities that also desired to utilize wind energy but did not have the resources to pull it off. Jiminy's new company beleives they have serveral other viable projects in the conduit.

I can understand and appreciate those that do not like the thought of wind towers cluttering up the scenery. Be nice too if the hills of western mass were void of clutter. That would include power lines, McMansions on the tops of hills and of course roads. Be nice if the view of the ocean was unobstructed. Be nice too if you did not have to look at ocean side mansions obstructing the view or limiting the access to the beaches. Sadly, we are far removed from the pristine environment that greeted the first settlers to this coast. Change has happened and will continue. It would be nice if change was not necessary.

I encourage those of you that are opposed to wind energy and the profile it adds to the view, to consider the alternatives. America's dependence on foreign oil must end sooner or later. The clean energy of wind power is a very viable altenative. Would you prefer to see oil platforms? Be thankfull that someone wants to build something that utilizes a green energy source.

"Blue H USA", is proposing another wind farm 23 miles off the vineyard.

State waters is 3 miles....

Where else but Massachusetts do you get to start a business, and get free land with the best water view in the world to start a new endeavour.

Even on a clear day you'll never see these.

At least one thing is for certain, long liners and trawlers will be going elsewhere because they wont have any room to set thier gear out. That could be a good thing.

Eff the long liners. They can all sink for all I care.
And the trawlers don't drag that area much anymore.
Check whats open and whats closed.

Jungledog: the problem with Jimney as a model is they buy their electricity in bulk.
Its a "use it or lose it" situation.
I honestly doubt they've cut back how much electricity they buy yet with the windmill on location as if they go over their allowance they get hit VERY hard with huge fees.

Also forgot to add about Jimney is most (if not all) ski resorts the lifts/snowmaking and buildings power supply are off seperate feeds.
Lifts are getting bulk since well, they're all electric, and they use ALOT of electricity.
They're most likely feeding the lodges and ops buildings from the windmill.

State waters is 3 miles....



Even on a clear day you'll never see these.



Eff the long liners. They can all sink for all I care.
And the trawlers don't drag that area much anymore.
Check whats open and whats closed.

Jungledog: the problem with Jimney as a model is they buy their electricity in bulk.
Its a "use it or lose it" situation.
I honestly doubt they've cut back how much electricity they buy yet with the windmill on location as if they go over their allowance they get hit VERY hard with huge fees.

Also forgot to add about Jimney is most (if not all) ski resorts the lifts/snowmaking and buildings power supply are off seperate feeds.
Lifts are getting bulk since well, they're all electric, and they use ALOT of electricity.
They're most likely feeding the lodges and ops buildings from the windmill.


I don't now about not seeing them. On a clear day I can see Nantucket from the Vineyard and that is 18 or 20 miles. 300 to 400 foot wind turbines I think will be visible.

I am less against them than what I used to be? Are they needed ya, no doubt. But I have a very serious problem about paying for them by giving free land to build them on, allowing for tax credits for up something like 700 millions dollars, which means the cost of building them is coming directly out of our pockets, and then I have to pay for the priviledge of receiving the energy the windmills generate down the road.

If I want to build a gas station I have to buy the land. If I want to own a grocery store I have to buy the land. This happens in every geo-political arena, be it conservative or liberal. That is the sponsership in some form or another of a business.

I would like to see a new law introduced that bars anyone who is trying start up a new business, such as windmills farms, but any new business be barred from donating money to anyone's campaign, hiring any consultants, (other than those who can literally help build the project, such as engineers), and hiring anyone connected to any elected official (hacks) in Massachusetts until the company has been up and running for five years from its completion date. Then we would see just how fast this type of venture would get done. If it is worthwhile then it would get put up quickly. If it wasn't worthwhile it would fall off the edge of the earth never to be heard from again. In other words keep the corruption/payoffs out of the process.

If I want to build a gas station I have to buy the land. If I want to own a grocery store I have to buy the land. This happens in every geo-political arena, be it conservative or liberal. That is the sponsership in some form or another of a business.

Find me a nuclear power plant that had to pay for their land.

i say put the wind farm on no-mans land... not like people can live there anyways and it wont be wrecking the underwater currents. just an idea.

We need to decrease our dependence on fossil fuels so build as many wind farms as we need...F the NIMBY crowd!

If I want to build a gas station I have to buy the land. If I want to own a grocery store I have to buy the land. This happens in every geo-political arena, be it conservative or liberal. That is the sponsership in some form or another of a business.

.

Do you really want to sell the ocean floor to a private company. If they own it then they can say no fishing by the towers.

The normal practice is to lease them the land the problem is the government has a habit of making bad deals. But then aren't we looking for ways to reduce our oil use and reduce emissions to the air.

What nuclear plant paid for it's land? Most have paid more then 10 times the actual land value. Plus the millions in property tax each year. An even with that thanks to de-regulation the Northeast plant owners are making a ton of money and their still selling power to the grid cheaper then any of the coal, or or gas units.

I'd like to see Geo-Thermal energy plants.
They use it in Iceland to produce hydrogen, we can too.
The waste product from burning hydrogen is simply H2O, nice and clean. We need to cut our dependence on oil bigtime. Solar energy is another way to go. But geo-thermal does not seem like it's being utilized enough, Yellowstone could create enough energy to power our country if managed right I bet.

Just read the other day someone in NE got some funding for tidal power. I think there is an old tidal wheel in Quincy somewhere used in days gone by to grind grain or something. Hydrogen is the way to go but at this time it takes more $$$ to make hydrogen than it is worth. Iceland is one exception being that it is cheap and they have stations to fuel up already set up. You will be able to power your house from your car. Just plug it in when you get home from work.They are doing it already in Japan
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgGlE97rJl4&feature=related

Build the wind farm. I am all for it. But it will not make your bill go down, may up. Don't forget about the upkeep involved. The only good thing is that it is a renewable energy. It may reduce the local area need for gas oil and coal slightly.

I also say invest more money in clean coal technology. This country has more coal reserves than the mid east has oil.

I would rather see windmills in my back yard than stacks billowing smoke, chemicals and steam. I have been 200' from the base of windmills in PA and they are virtually silent. With oil and gas prices rising because we are hostages to oil producing nations, we just gotta do something smart for a change.
But, don't do anything where the piping plover's nest!

Find me a nuclear power plant that had to pay for their land.


Plymouth did, I'll confirm that tomorrow, and I believe Seabrook did. Yankee I am not sure but I'll check with an accountant buddy who worked there for 20 years.

Just read the other day someone in NE got some funding for tidal power. I think there is an old tidal wheel in Quincy somewhere used in days gone by to grind grain or something. Hydrogen is the way to go but at this time it takes more $$$ to make hydrogen than it is worth. Iceland is one exception being that it is cheap and they have stations to fuel up already set up. You will be able to power your house from your car. Just plug it in when you get home from work.They are doing it already in Japan
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgGlE97rJl4&feature=related


The tidal power effort is again slated for just west of the Vineyard in the southern part of Middle Ground.

You could propose a free money machine for all residents, and it would be met with stiff opposition.

worthy for quote of the month and true

I'd like to see Geo-Thermal energy plants.
They use it in Iceland to produce hydrogen, we can too.
The waste product from burning hydrogen is simply H2O, nice and clean. We need to cut our dependence on oil bigtime. Solar energy is another way to go. But geo-thermal does not seem like it's being utilized enough, Yellowstone could create enough energy to power our country if managed right I bet.

You can heat your home with Geothermal now, Slip. Two wells and a heat pump. But ...the electricity bill for running two well pumps and a heat pump constantly would be a killer, I think.

BBJ is right; THAT form of Geothermal heating is viable; large scale, steam generated geothermal (Iceland; they way I understand it) requires active volcanic processes, that has very high subsurface heat flow. Iceland is at the Mid-Atlantic ridge; at the edges of the N. American and European plates; we're in the middle of the N. American plate, so none of those processes are active here; Yellowstone, and a few other regions maybe, but not on the east of gulf coasts.

For those that know me in 'reall-life' I have a passing interest in climate change, professionally as an educator, and personally as a scientist, and while not the 'greenest' of the green by far, I try and do my part, at least with little things on a day to day basis.

Wind is part of the solution IMHO; It is coming for RI soon too. Keeping them in state waters increases the efficiency (shorter distance). I do think that the NIMBY' will be the biggest hurdle. They all drive Priuses, but damn it if you F-up their view with a few lights at night... (hmm, what about the near-constant ship traffic in our coastal waters... maybe we shouldn't allow that either!)

Tidal power usually requires several meters of tide range; so RI, and most of MA is out. Maybe Maine? I think it was researched and found impractical. They tried it in the East River; they put turbines down, I think they powered one grocery store...

Waves seems too inconstant at best, while it seems rough here, we don't have the consistent, long period swells that drive the wave-energy turbines. Again, maybe someday the technology will catch up.

I firmly believe the two best options are a combination of wind and solar, along with a huge step-up in efficiency, will be the answer. Give it 10 years, and the photo-voltaic technology in solar panels will be built into roof tiles, so you can coat your roof with solar, w/o it looking like solar panels... Maybe in the future. Not to get political, but the argument that this will cost jobs is ludicrous, all these projects, wind farms, solar panels, green building etc.. all will generate the type of manufacturing and construction jobs we need badly in the USA... unfortunately, the rest of the world is lapping us, and will be the ones making all of the 'green' technology that we'll just end up importing.

Build the wind farm. I'm all for it

I M O Every bit helps and i would like to see more green energy in place BUT all the green energy put together won,t do it . It is going to take a lot of refining plants to refine our own oil and i think we have to move fast. This followed by nuclear power plants and we should be independent.