Im listening to him talk right now on the tube...

Iran is the issue and he sounds exactly like bush did before we went into Iraq. How the %$%$%$%$ could we possibly deal with Iran when we can hardly deal with Iraq??

If he is voted in, I am moving to mars.

Well the other choices aren't much better.

Can't have Iran disrupting the oil flow after Exxon/BP takes over Iraq's oil reserves.

Well the other choices aren't much better.
The other choices are at least talking more about fixing our problems here at home and not trying to address problems on the other side of the planet.

:cputin:

Let's hope they follow through with those promises and not get snatched up in the rhetoric of the moment.

The biggest promise is to change course away from Bush's iraq train wreck. Sometimes vague is good.

you mean Cheney's train wreck redux

well yeah sure, but bush's name is on the bill.

Something really frightening from the Scott McClellen interview on Russert yesterday.

In 2004 when Russert asked Bush if he felt the Iraq war was an elective choice, Bush seemed to fumble the response.

Afterwords McClellen remarked that Bush has ask him what Russert was getting at by that question. As in he didn't really get it...

Either Obama or McCain would be a tremendous intellectual improvement over where we are today.

-spence

improvement, but what course would they take? a warrior or a peacemaker? hmmm. :rollem:

Anyway there will be a different 'approach' come 1/20/09

if its not mccain all youse guys better learn how to speak farsi and find out which direction mecca is. the veil thing and the multiple wife thing might not be so bad though.

you forgot 'giant mushroom cloud' and 'imminent death'..

if its not mccain all youse guys better learn how to speak farsi and find out which direction mecca is. the veil thing and the multiple wife thing might not be so bad though.
Wow, you must hold a very low opinion of the USA.

-spence

Wow, you must hold a very low opinion of the USA.

-spence

Maybe, but I bet there is a huge GWB sticker on his car...

or at least a NASCAR sticker. maybe one of those cute calvin stickers with him peeing on a ford logo.

if its not mccain all youse guys better learn how to speak farsi and find out which direction mecca is. the veil thing and the multiple wife thing might not be so bad though.

Multipe wife thing. If that rubs your rhubarb, you dont got to go to Iran for that, just go down to south central Texas.

I think it was mark twain who said polygamy was impossibe because 'no man can serve 2 masters' :hihi:

"bomb, bomb, bomb....bomb..bomb Iran"

-John "Diplomatic Sophistication" McCain

Wow, you must hold a very low opinion of the USA.

-spence

very high opinion of the USA and want to keep it that way

Maybe, but I bet there is a huge GWB sticker on his car...

nope lifetime NRA sticka, check mate buddy

very high opinion of the USA and want to keep it that way

" if its not mccain all youse guys better learn how to speak farsi and find out which direction mecca is. the veil thing and the multiple wife thing might not be so bad though."


So you assume that w/o GWB or McCain we'd immediately become Iran?

Seriously?

I said GWB, not NRA.

I think it was mark twain who said polygamy was impossibe because 'no man can serve 2 masters' :hihi:

nebe
you should try wearing the pants and not the skirt, you might like it.

very high opinion of the USA and want to keep it that way
So you claim, but in the previous breath you assert that an Obama presidency would mean the destruction of America by a piss ant 3rd world Iranian theocracy that could be hanging by a thread at any moment.

Sounds more like you're willing to throw Lady Liberty under the bus to score some cheap political points. Not very American if you ask me...

-spence

Spence,
I never expect an answer, just more Rush/Savage rhetoric

"We should not negotiate out of fear, but we should not fear to negotiate"

-John F. Kennedy

i guess i learned my lesson

never argue with fools
they bring you down to their level then beat you with experience

we survived wilson, carter, clinton and we'll survive obama if that's what god has in store for us.

I learned my lesson too. never argue with a guy with a NRA sticker.... He will shoot you. :buds:

I learned my lesson too. never argue with a guy with a NRA sticker.... He will shoot you. :buds:

but not till after i give you a chance to draw!!

Arguing implies you made a contrary statement.
Spence and I formulated a question.
you ignored it.
ipso facto, we win :D:D

but not till after i give you a chance to draw!!

Drawing is not one of my strong points. however, having a BFA in fine arts, Id wager to guess I can out draw you any day. :hee:

Not only do I wear a skirt I am a certified art fag in the eyes of the typical alpha male. In the eyes of a woman I am fabio. :rotflmao:

i guess i learned my lesson

never argue with fools
they bring you down to their level then beat you with experience

we survived wilson, carter, clinton and we'll survive obama if that's what god has in store for us.

ok, hows this?

never discuss politics with fools.

Thats the answer I thought I'd get.
You made a stupid statement about Americans becoming Muslims because Obama might win the election, and then you sit back and call us fools instead of addressing what you said, and what we asked in response to your question.

blah,blah,blah

Just the type of thought out, intelligent response I'd expect from a gun-toting right winger.

where is happymatt? surely one can not be mad about everything?

did you guys know it requires twice as much energy to be mad as opposed to happy.

group hug guys.. group hug.

ok, hows this?

never discuss politics with fools.

Who is the bigger fool?

The warrior who Kills to solve a dispute

The diplomat who negotiates to solve a dispute


hmmmm. I guess the answer depends on how much a barrel of oil costs after its all said and done.

I learned my lesson too. never argue with a guy with a NRA sticker.... He will shoot you. :buds:

That's a little childish don't you think. You have no idea what the NRA stands for.You sound like a Hollywood Idiot. Obama is a joke. you know it. I know it and the rest of the world knows it. He is a preacher and you are a sheep

Obama is a joke. you know it. I know it and the rest of the world knows it.
Looks like the rest of America didn't get your memo.

That JOKE is leading John McCain in the most recent polls :rotflmao:

-spence

Obama is a joke. you know it. I know it and the rest of the world knows it. He is a preacher and you are a sheep

So I can't help myself, what precisely is he preaching?

The rest of the world thinks he's a joke? Show us proof? The real world? Or the buckman snowglobe world?

If you're going to make bold statements such as this at least have the ability to back it up.

I don't believe I quoted you. Why don't you make a long list of Obama's qualifications and enlighten us all. Or tell me something he truly stands for. I have an open mind, please teach me so I may follow too.

That's a little childish don't you think. You have no idea what the NRA stands for.You sound like a Hollywood Idiot. Obama is a joke. you know it. I know it and the rest of the world knows it. He is a preacher and you are a sheep

So sorry, but I am no sheep. Infact I am anything but a sheep. The more i think about it, those who need to join large orginizations like the NRA are actually sheep. I am a sea gull. Watch out or I will poop on you.

I don't believe I quoted you. Why don't you make a long list of Obama's qualifications and enlighten us all. Or tell me something he truly stands for. I have an open mind, please teach me so I may follow too.

I have thought much about Obama and this is what I come up with. In general, Obama truely stands for one main ideal. The well being of the masses of this country. The people who make up about 80% of this country. Mccain will tell you that you can have your guns.. McCain will tell you that your god is his god.. McCain will tell you that he is looking out for you, but in the end, when you look at how most republicns operate, they are really looking out for the top 1% of this country. Did you know that 1% of our population ownes 40% of the wealth in this country? In the past few years, more and more tax burdon has been shifted from this 1% and put on your shoulders and your kids shoulders. While you and I focus on working our butts off to make a hundered or 2 hundered grand a year, that 1% saves a hundred grand every month on the recent tax cuts. What the normal person earns in a year is chump change. The thing is this- What one needs to pay attention to is what course this country is going down.. Bush and McCain are obsessed with global issues and nation building.. Obama has his own nation to re-build. Ours.

I choose to join organizations that protect rights that I believe in. By the way Obama couldn't even stand by his church when the going got tough. Some values. I am still waiting for the list. Someone in the herd must have one.:bl:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/

Couldn't stand by his church?
Can you blame him?
As far as I can tell the man stands by his religion.

Why is it so wrong that he walked away from his church when he didn't agree with it? If your church turned into a KKK meeting would you keep going?

And honestly, you accused him of being a preacher and us sheep, you must know him better than we do. Why precisely do we need to be telling you what he stands for if you already know so much about him?

I have thought much about Obama and this is what I come up with. In general, Obama truely stands for one main ideal. The well being of the masses of this country. The people who make up about 80% of this country. Mccain will tell you that you can have your guns.. McCain will tell you that your god is his god.. McCain will tell you that he is looking out for you, but in the end, when you look at how most republicns operate, they are really looking out for the top 1% of this country. Did you know that 1% of our population ownes 40% of the wealth in this country? In the past few years, more and more tax burdon has been shifted from this 1% and put on your shoulders and your kids shoulders. While you and I focus on working our butts off to make a hundered or 2 hundered grand a year, that 1% saves a hundred grand every month on the recent tax cuts. What the normal person earns in a year is chump change. The thing is this- What one needs to pay attention to is what course this country is going down.. Bush and McCain are obsessed with global issues and nation building.. Obama has his own nation to re-build. Ours.

However the top 10% pay 90% of the taxes. Why should one person have to pay for the 9 layabouts that don't want to put in the effort. Work hard and strife to be that top 10% don't just complain about it. I am not even close to the upper bracket but I don't begrudge them for what they have. Why don't you swap your tax bill with someone who is "rich"

I'll have to admit I had a little falling out with the church myself being Catholic but he never complained or left untill it started to hurt his poles. That's why I say he has no values.

I'll have to admit I had a little falling out with the church myself being Catholic but he never complained or left untill it started to hurt his poles. That's why I say he has no values.

Maybe he had family who went there? Friends that went there?
Haven't you ever been in the situation of "well... he still goes, eh, i'll go anyhow..."?

He didn't abandon the church until the pastor refused to apologize for what he said.

I wouldnt be so quick to judge him over the church thing. Just because you do not agree 100% With your preist/reverand/rabi, does not mean that you reflect the same values, nor does it reflect that you have to find a new church. So he didnt agree with the guy and he stayed... so what. So he left because the media pounced on this as one of his weaknesses.. so what. I would have done the same thing. The social aspects of church sometimes out weigh the religious aspects. I would wager to guess that every affluent black person in his town attended that church. Sometimes sheep are slow to leave the flock, unless wolves are hopping the fence.

Thanks Nebe, I did not know he had done so much. " he gave the most important speech on religion in the last 40 years" HOLy SH@@t how did I miss it. And he stopped the spread of those infamous "weapons of mass destruction". I think he is awsome

Thanks Nebe, I did not know he had done so much. " he gave the most important speech on religion in the last 40 years" HOLy SH@@t how did I miss it. And he stopped the spread of those infamous "weapons of mass destruction". I think he is awsome

Considering the republicans coined the term WMD and then fabricated evidence to support the term, Id say they are even dont you think :D

Considering the republicans coined the term WMD and then fabricated evidence to support the term, Id say they are even dont you think :D

Yes, I do.

Unquestionably it was the best speech on religion in 40 years.

did you listen to it?

http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1358313999/bclid933143286/bctid1209568851

No, I just took his word for it. It said it on his website so thats good enough for us, right? baa baa

No, I just took his word for it. It said it on his website so thats good enough for us, right? baa baa

Much like "mission accomplished"?

Man, we can't get away from that can we. The goal of the original mission was accomplished, we just forgot the next step.

Man, we can't get away from that can we. The goal of the original mission was accomplished, we just forgot the next step.

Oh you mean the mission they apologized for? Yeeeahhhhh

Oh you mean the mission they apologized for? Yeeeahhhhh

Please tell me we didn't apologize for our mistakes. Say it ain't so.:shocked:

we apologize for other's mistakes. then we kill them.

we apologize for other's mistakes. then we kill them.

What?

we apologize for other's mistakes. then we kill them.

I thought it was plausible deniability for 30 years then "oh yeah, that, uh.... right.... JUST KIDDING LOLZ!"

Man, we can't get away from that can we. The goal of the original mission was accomplished, we just forgot the next step.
Actually, no. The goal of the original mission was to rid Iraq of WMD, rid the area of Western facing terrorisim and spread Democracy throughout the Middle East.

The "next step" as you say was a means to that end, and one that has proved to be a strategic blunder.

-spence

The media has been quite for awhile now. Things are doing much better over there.If you have anyone close to you, that is over there, they will tell you the same thing. History will prove we did the right thing. Then you Dems will take credit for it somehow.

First page of his speech included 11 references to things Americans are afraid of.

Yeah, we're sick of hearing it over and over again. :doh:

The media has been quite for awhile now. Things are doing much better over there.If you have anyone close to you, that is over there, they will tell you the same thing. History will prove we did the right thing. Then you Dems will take credit for it somehow.
Over there?

You mean how Egypt has slid further away from Democracy?

How Iran is exploiting our weakened global position to persue nukes?

How Saudia Arabia continues to oppress women while we enrich their kingdom?

And this is all worth 4,000+ dead and a trillion dollars siezed from the US Taxpayer in a marketing scheme and borrored from a communist government?

Yes, there have been meaningful advances made in Iraq, but we have to date seen little that indicates the Iraqi's are capable of running a government on their own. The very same sectarian divide that Saddam kept quiet under an iron fist is still there waiting to explode.

Our International standing (read LEVERAGE) is still in the dumper, and even more so with the fall of the US Dollar.

And with all of this, America, the great nation she is is still the best place in the world (unlike some, I don't expect to be speaking Farsii any time soon).

Best case for the Bush legacy is that he's remembered as an incompetent dope who poisoned his administration with other equally incompetent dopes and arrogant, fanatic idiologues. How the pragmatic voices of reason were time and time again tossed aside in favor of those who would tow the line, and use every issue as campaign fodder without regard to impact of the American way of life.

Worst case is that either McCain or Obama makes great strides to rebuild the American brand, which I think either is capable of doing, as this will wipe Bush's folly's with a neon highlighter.

-spence

And the media has still been quiet about the situation with our troops on the ground. Regardless of whether going in was foolish or not, the sad fact is the Bush Admin & Rummy made one colossal upgefucht after another over there. But a lot of hard work and good leadership by our troops has made a positive impact and due to the Surge, the corner may have been turned for good. But that does not get mentioned.

Over there?

You mean how Egypt has slid further away from Democracy?

How Iran is exploiting our weakened global position to persue nukes?

How Saudia Arabia continues to oppress women while we enrich their kingdom?

And this is all worth 4,000+ dead and a trillion dollars siezed from the US Taxpayer in a marketing scheme and borrored from a communist government?

Yes, there have been meaningful advances made in Iraq, but we have to date seen little that indicates the Iraqi's are capable of running a government on their own. The very same sectarian divide that Saddam kept quiet under an iron fist is still there waiting to explode.

Our International standing (read LEVERAGE) is still in the dumper, and even more so with the fall of the US Dollar.

And with all of this, America, the great nation she is is still the best place in the world (unlike some, I don't expect to be speaking Farsii any time soon).

Best case for the Bush legacy is that he's remembered as an incompetent dope who poisoned his administration with other equally incompetent dopes and arrogant, fanatic idiologues. How the pragmatic voices of reason were time and time again tossed aside in favor of those who would tow the line, and use every issue as campaign fodder without regard to impact of the American way of life.

Worst case is that either McCain or Obama makes great strides to rebuild the American brand, which I think either is capable of doing, as this will wipe Bush's folly's with a neon highlighter.

-spence

And the media has still been quiet about the situation with our troops on the ground. Regardless of whether going in was foolish or not, the sad fact is the Bush Admin & Rummy made one colossal upgefucht after another over there. But a lot of hard work and good leadership by our troops has made a positive impact and due to the Surge, the corner may have been turned for good. But that does not get mentioned.
I completely disagree.

The media has covered the Surge at length over the past year. I've seen it in print, online and on the evening shows. I've seen the positive elements of the Surge reported as well as the tenuous elements reported. Helped = yes, worked = not so quick.

Granted it's not a daily front page story, but there are other issues like elections, the economy and Lindsey Lohan who deserve their time.

This is just more media baiting from the right wing.

-spence

What?

evil doers. you know...we kill them.

evil doers. you know...we kill them.

No, it's not their fault. We made them evil. They are the victems here. I feel bad for them. I am sure if we all become hatefull Muslums we can all live in peace.

No, it's not their fault. We made them evil. They are the victems here. I feel bad for them. I am sure if we all become hatefull Muslums we can all live in peace.
Hence the problem, the blending of evil doers with hateful Muslims...or put another way...the blending of political and religious extremism...or put another way...the blending of an entire spectrum of issues into...

Us against them.

Only 6 words total just to make it easy to swallow. I sure wish the world were this simple.

-spence

Hence the problem, the blending of evil doers with hateful Muslims...or put another way...the blending of political and religious extremism...or put another way...the blending of an entire spectrum of issues into...

Us against them.

Only 6 words total just to make it easy to swallow. I sure wish the world were this simple.

-spence

It's them against us. that's a fact.

Spence obviously doesn't get it.

all pray the same
all blow up the same

right buckman?

No, but if you think you can reason with these kind and gentle folks then have at it. Tell me again why they attacked us, so I can understand how the pacifist would have handled things. We did get attacked didn't we?

No, but if you think you can reason with these kind and gentle folks then have at it. Tell me again why they attacked us, so I can understand how the pacifist would have handled things. We did get attacked didn't we?

No?

But its "us" against "them" so does "them" mean "all of them"?

Maybe some of them?
Maybe a minority of them?

Which is it?

Should we go burn down the Arch Diocses of Boston because a couple priests were kiddie touchers?

It's them against us. that's a fact.

wrong.

Before you make a statement like that, you need to analyze why they are against us, or why it is that they threw the 1st stone at us.

Our foreign policy has been against them for decades. The problem is oil and Israel. If our country ignored those 2 issues and made decisions in regards to foreign policy without taking them into consideration, you would see a happier Muslim population in the middle east and a population that would have no reason to want to attack Americans. But because we want their oil and because we worked with england to create the nation of Israel in the 40's and displace millions of Palestinians and force them to live in refuge camps for decades, I can see why we are hated. You certainly can not think that we as a nation have done nothing to pour fuel on the Muslim fire for years and years..
To think that the Muslim population would sit back and let us screw them over time after time is like the thought that the American Indians who once roamed the great planes of our country would sit back and let the white man steal their lands without raising a fist in defense. Were they against us? or were we against them?

open your eyes

wrong.

Before you make a statement like that, you need to analyze why they are against us, or why it is that they threw the 1st stone at us.

Our foreign policy has been against them for decades. The problem is oil and Israel. If our country ignored those 2 issues and made decisions in regards to foreign policy without taking them into consideration, you would see a happier Muslim population in the middle east and a population that would have no reason to want to attack Americans. But because we want their oil and because we worked with england to create the nation of Israel in the 40's and displace millions of Palestinians and force them to live in refuge camps for decades, I can see why we are hated. You certainly can not think that we as a nation have done nothing to pour fuel on the Muslim fire for years and years..
To think that the Muslim population would sit back and let us screw them over time after time is like the thought that the American Indians who once roamed the great planes of our country would sit back and let the white man steal their lands without raising a fist in defense. Were they against us? or were we against them?

open your eyes


Holt sh@@t, do you ever listen to your self. Maybe we should give America back to the Indians. Last I checked your car and boat run on fossil fuels too. Are you saying that if we just leave them alone they will be peaceful. Hell they have been killing each other off for thousands of years. They no nothing of peace and to blame it on Israel is pathetic. How about the Muslums taking over Europe or is that Ok. As long as no one who is not a Muslim is in their country.

common sense man... common sense. If you were my neighbor and I built a guest house on your property against your will, what would you do? Give me a kiss and polish my shoes? Sounds ridiculous doesnt it? The thing is that i would never do that in the first place.

So lets say I did build a guest house on your property and your screaming and yelling about it.. no one listens to you and those who do, say that my grandparents once owned your land so your out of luck.. you have no options so you use the only option you have left to get me off of your land... violence. Then people start paying attention to you and you think your going to get your way, but the people paying attention have labeled you as a terrorist. Now you have no way out.. you might as well just kill yourself, or better yet, kill me and yourself at the same time.. no one wins.

But.. If i had the decency to treat you right in the first place and respect your rights, we'd be having a cook out right now..

They no nothing of peace and to blame it on Israel is pathetic. How about the Muslums taking over Europe or is that Ok. As long as no one who is not a Muslim is in their country.

Please explain why Indonesia while it has the largest muslim population in the world seems to be fine with hindus, christians, and other religions (including jews) living there?

For example you'll see muslims, jews, christians, hindus all in Kuala Lumpur.
You don't see the muslims freaking out and beheading anyone?
Why is that?

And just to be clear, if there's one group that hates muslims more than the right wing, its hindus.

Please explain why Indonesia while it has the largest muslim population in the world seems to be fine with hindus, christians, and other religions (including jews) living there?

For example you'll see muslims, jews, christians, hindus all in Kuala Lumpur.
You don't see the muslims freaking out and beheading anyone?
Why is that?

I don't believe for a minute that all Muslums are bad. But the terrorist that are beheading, blowing up schools and shrines, targeting children and killing all over the world are all Muslum. And Indonesia has had a few attacks of their own. It's no Utopia over there. The world is full of people living on land that was once owned by others. We are not British over here.

common sense man... common sense. If you were my neighbor and I built a guest house on your property against your will, what would you do? Give me a kiss and polish my shoes? Sounds ridiculous doesnt it? The thing is that i would never do that in the first place.

So lets say I did build a guest house on your property and your screaming and yelling about it.. no one listens to you and those who do, say that my grandparents once owned your land so your out of luck.. you have no options so you use the only option you have left to get me off of your land... violence. Then people start paying attention to you and you think your going to get your way, but the people paying attention have labeled you as a terrorist. Now you have no way out.. you might as well just kill yourself, or better yet, kill me and yourself at the same time.. no one wins.

But.. If i had the decency to treat you right in the first place and respect your rights, we'd be having a cook out right now..

I could sell you the land:hee: Not a great analogy but I get your point. It's just that this is how the world works. things change, wars happen, land changes hands, and it is not going to be any different in our life time. No matter how many Prayers for Peace rallies you attend.

once we kill them all, everything will be fine.

bombs away

I don't believe for a minute that all Muslums are bad. But the terrorist that are beheading, blowing up schools and shrines, targeting children and killing all over the world are all Muslum. And Indonesia has had a few attacks of their own. It's no Utopia over there. The world is full of people living on land that was once owned by others. We are not British over here.

Where are they targeting children again?

What about the IRA? They're not muslims.
What about the wackos we've had here in the US? Not muslims.
Random bombings in the former soviet union? Yet again. Still not muslims.
Tamil Tigers? Not muslims.
Most of the conflicts in Africa? Not muslims.

And apparently you WANT us to be the British with kingdom building in the middle east and "killing all them muslims".

I have thought much about Obama and this is what I come up with. In general, Obama truely stands for one main ideal. The well being of the masses of this country. The people who make up about 80% of this country. Mccain will tell you that you can have your guns.. McCain will tell you that your god is his god.. McCain will tell you that he is looking out for you, but in the end, when you look at how most republicns operate, they are really looking out for the top 1% of this country. Did you know that 1% of our population ownes 40% of the wealth in this country? In the past few years, more and more tax burdon has been shifted from this 1% and put on your shoulders and your kids shoulders. While you and I focus on working our butts off to make a hundered or 2 hundered grand a year, that 1% saves a hundred grand every month on the recent tax cuts. What the normal person earns in a year is chump change. The thing is this- What one needs to pay attention to is what course this country is going down.. Bush and McCain are obsessed with global issues and nation building.. Obama has his own nation to re-build. Ours.

Here we get to the crux of where I disagree Nebe with you and Obama. There is major disconnect on the wealth of this country. The days of old money and privledge are LONG gone. There are very few living off the family trust fund. And those that do, good for them, their families earned it. Obama has defined the wealthy as people making over 250k. Do you think the people that make say 250k to 1 million a year have it easy? They have to work and show results and have loads more pressure than most. I worked with people making big $ for most of my career. I've seen the sacrifices they make and the cost they pay. Yet Obama says, lets tax these people more! Well, these people have more expensive houses, they pay MORE property taxes, they have more expensive cars, they pay MORE property taxes. The more $ they make, the more income taxes they pay. The Obama plan is that teh people who work hard AND SUCCEED, must carry the burdern of those that don't. This country was built on hard work. The government should provide the opportunity to succeed, but not penalize those that do.
I wish I could find the exact quote, but he ended a speech by saying " We need to focus on healing and helping Americans"
I dont need healing, I don't need helping, and quite frankly its not the governments job to be sticking its nose in my business.

Man, we can't get away from that can we. The goal of the original mission was accomplished, we just forgot the next step.

Forgot the next step:shocked:

Your joking right?

common sense man... common sense. If you were my neighbor and I built a guest house on your property against your will, what would you do? Give me a kiss and polish my shoes? Sounds ridiculous doesnt it? The thing is that i would never do that in the first place.

So lets say I did build a guest house on your property and your screaming and yelling about it.. no one listens to you and those who do, say that my grandparents once owned your land so your out of luck.. you have no options so you use the only option you have left to get me off of your land... violence. Then people start paying attention to you and you think your going to get your way, but the people paying attention have labeled you as a terrorist. Now you have no way out.. you might as well just kill yourself, or better yet, kill me and yourself at the same time.. no one wins.

But.. If i had the decency to treat you right in the first place and respect your rights, we'd be having a cook out right now..

Hmmm. Narragansett. That name sounds native american......plan on giving up your home?

Where are they targeting children again?

What about the IRA? They're not muslims.
What about the wackos we've had here in the US? Not muslims.
Random bombings in the former soviet union? Yet again. Still not muslims.
Tamil Tigers? Not muslims.
Most of the conflicts in Africa? Not muslims.

And apparently you WANT us to be the British with kingdom building in the middle east and "killing all them muslims".

You should get a job writing talking points for them. Your very defensive when someone says anything bad about a terrorist. I'm sure you and your children will be safe if they board your plane. You know they looked those little kids in the face and crashed that plane into the towers.

I don't condone the IRA or any of those now defunct groups. Don't forget the Black Panthers.

Forgot the next step:shocked:

Your joking right?


Yes

Honestly I'm not even going to acknowledge what you said before what I quoted below because you're now on the defensive and can't come up with a mature response. Slinging it doesn't win you any points with anyone. And in reality, I'm defending muslims, not terrorists, but obviously I *am* supporting terrorists because all muslims are terrorists right?

I don't condone the IRA or any of those now defunct groups. Don't forget the Black Panthers.

Howabout the KKK?

Here we get to the crux of where I disagree Nebe with you and Obama. There is major disconnect on the wealth of this country. The days of old money and privledge are LONG gone. There are very few living off the family trust fund. And those that do, good for them, their families earned it. Obama has defined the wealthy as people making over 250k. Do you think the people that make say 250k to 1 million a year have it easy? They have to work and show results and have loads more pressure than most. I worked with people making big $ for most of my career. I've seen the sacrifices they make and the cost they pay. Yet Obama says, lets tax these people more! Well, these people have more expensive houses, they pay MORE property taxes, they have more expensive cars, they pay MORE property taxes. The more $ they make, the more income taxes they pay. The Obama plan is that teh people who work hard AND SUCCEED, must carry the burdern of those that don't. This country was built on hard work. The government should provide the opportunity to succeed, but not penalize those that do.
I wish I could find the exact quote, but he ended a speech by saying " We need to focus on healing and helping Americans"
I dont need healing, I don't need helping, and quite frankly its not the governments job to be sticking its nose in my business.

you prove good points and i am not disagreeing with you, but the problem with capatilism is the rich get richer as they reap the profits from growth, and the poor get poorer as they have to pay more to fuel those profits. I think Obabma is concerned with that aspect. I really dont know to be honest, but it is an issue that needs attending and I dont see McCain looking out for the little guy.

Honestly I'm not even going to acknowledge what you said before what I quoted below because you're now on the defensive and can't come up with a mature response. Slinging it doesn't win you any points with anyone. And in reality, I'm defending muslims, not terrorists, but obviously I *am* supporting terrorists because all muslims are terrorists right?



Howabout the KKK?


Hate them, I mean I dislike them very much. ( just in case any of them still exist and have my address )

Hmmm. Narragansett. That name sounds native american......plan on giving up your home?

No I dont. and The palestinians didnt either. If I did have to give up my home and live in a refuge camp, Id be first in line to launch a mortar shell back into my old neighborhood. They have every right to be pissed off..

McCain- kill em all. (If you get my drift)

Obama- work with them and make their lives better so they wont need to feel so desperate.

Hmmm. Narragansett. That name sounds native american......plan on giving up your home?

actually, I believe Narragansett is the english corruption of a word from a language that probably does not exist anymore. Guess I cant give up my home if no one is around.

No I dont. and The palestinians didnt either. If I did have to give up my home and live in a refuge camp, Id be first in line to launch a mortar shell back into my old neighborhood. They have every right to be pissed off..

McCain- kill em all. (If you get my drift)

Obama- work with them and make their lives better so they wont need to feel so desperate.

Can all the Jews live in your house or do we have to kill them?

McCain - no war munger he's a war hero

Obama- How much $$ do we give them to leaveus alone. Perhaps the whole defense budget

I am just keeping myself busy untill the freaking boat yard finishes my boat. And the bass are everywhere!!!

I am just keeping myself busy untill the freaking boat yard finishes my boat. And the bass are everywhere!!!

Maybe if you learned to work on it yourself you wouldn't have this issue? ;)

Can all the Jews live in your house or do we have to kill them?

McCain - no war munger he's a war hero

Obama- How much $$ do we give them to leaveus alone. Perhaps the whole defense budget

Dont we pay iraqi's not to shoot at us

Maybe if you learned to work on it yourself you wouldn't have this issue? ;)

I have been told to never touch anything with a motor, by people who know better.

forklift flats of cash I might add

Dont we pay iraqi's not to shoot at us


I think we give them $$ as bounty $$. I don't think we are offering the terrorist money to not kill us. Not yet anyways

forklift flats of cash, that is no longer taxpayer money, but money fresh off the printing press, subtract any accounting practices.

Billions unnacounted for!!! No paper trail.

If thats gonna be Obama's approach, the current pube administration laid down the framework.

I think we give them $$ as bounty $$. I don't think we are offering the terrorist money to not kill us. Not yet anyways

actually, we have been doing it for years. We have been paying them not to shoot at us for years.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/11/iraq/main648678.shtml

I think we give them $$ as bounty $$. I don't think we are offering the terrorist money to not kill us. Not yet anyways

And they're so damn poor they'll hand over their neighbor as a Baathist or related to Al Qaeda somehow.

Well it must be working. The shooting and bombing has slowed down. How about we give Israel, Cambridge and then we can all live in peace and harmony. Will Harvard sell it maybe?

How about we give Israel, Cambridge and then we can all live in peace and harmony. Will Harvard sell it maybe?

They already have Newton and Chestnut Hill....

And Hollywood:rotf3:

I have been told to never touch anything with a motor, by people who know better.

Thats because they want your money.
Get a manual and sack up!

Thats because they want your money.
Get a manual and sack up!

It was my brother and he works for free:topic:

The bombing and shooting has slowed....hmmmm...yeah, but its still an occupation? Still rampant corruption? You still have a government incapable of providing basic civil services to its people and there isnt much we can do for them either, except pay them borrowed money.

...but saying things have slowed and are hence better, is like a patient undergoing an unnecessary, unplanned, unstructured surgery that proves to be disastrous at the hands of doctor covering his malpracticing @$$ by saying I have minimized some (but not all) of the blood loss.

...yet the patients condition, remains unstabilized

Good read gent's keep it up.

as of now, I'm voting for Mccain.

But with the economy and war, it will really be a kick in the @ss if the Dems can't take over the oval office.

The bombing and shooting has slowed....hmmmm...yeah, but its still an occupation? Still rampant corruption? You still have a government incapable of providing basic civil services to its people and there isnt much we can do for them either, except pay them borrowed money.

...but saying things have slowed and are hence better, is like a patient undergoing an unnecessary, unplanned, unstructured surgery that proves to be disastrous at the hands of doctor covering his malpracticing @$$ by saying I have minimized some (but not all) of the blood loss.

Your not a glass is half full kind of guy are you. Anything positive to say at all ? If we leave what's your plan or your prognosis? Doctor

vote Obama

no but seriously, its a lose, lose situation-

refer to the powell doctrine

and with respect to the glass half full- I didnt really want to drink anyway. I voted for Gore.

Remember it's not the President, it's the Cabinet he picks that makes the decisions. History has proved thet over and over. I don't think Obama has the power to pick his own Cabinet. McCain will and he has earned the right more then anyone in the recent past to be President. Obama has only been a junior senator for 3 years and he has spent most of that time running for President.

and with respect to the glass half full- I didnt really want to drink anyway. I voted for Gore.

Now I am shocked. Do your neighbors know.:eek:

Remember it's not the President, it's the Cabinet he picks that makes the decisions. History has proved thet over and over. I don't think Obama has the power to pick his own Cabinet. McCain will and he has earned the right more then anyone in the recent past to be President. Obama has only been a junior senator for 3 years and he has spent most of that time running for President.

agreed 100%

agreed 100%
Seconded, the president should be a LEADER, which I believe Obama to be.
I also think Obama is smart enough to realize that given his age and experience, he needs to surround himself with the best cabinet he can, and given the state of things, I think he'll have his pick of the D's and I's (and hell, maybe some centerist R's) for his cabinet...

I feel like no one told bush how the cabinet system worked.. he simply invited a bunch of lobbyists to serve him :hs:

Seconded, the president should be a LEADER, which I believe Obama to be.
I also think Obama is smart enough to realize that given his age and experience, he needs to surround himself with the best cabinet he can, and given the state of things, I think he'll have his pick of the D's and I's (and hell, maybe some centerist R's) for his cabinet...

Sounds like one big happy Cabinet. Only he is the most left leaning Dem we have seen in a long time. He is a smooth talking con man. He stands for all the same retoric that every Dem runs on. Sounds like he has all the experience of Duval. Hmm, how does Secretary of The Interior sound Patrick my friend.

Yeah.
because GWB's cabinet wasn't the gold old boys club of his fathers administration + Condi.
Rummsfeld, Cheney? Surprised Quayle didn't get an invite to the party.

ANYTHING would be an improvement then now. Hell, McCain would probably be a small step up over GWB, at least he believes in climate change......

Yeah.
because GWB's cabinet wasn't the gold old boys club of his fathers administration + Condi.
Rummsfeld, Cheney? Surprised Quayle didn't get an invite to the party.

ANYTHING would be an improvement then now. Hell, McCain would probably be a small step up over GWB, at least he believes in climate change......

I would not say anything would be an improvement. Obama would be a huge threat to our country. With the dems in charge of everything and the justice appointments they would make, We would make the french look like conservatives.

I think Bush believes that man is having a impact on global climate he is just not willing to sell out America, to appease a bunch of anti-American tree huggers. Give up your own car, boat and heating system. Some 3rd world nation trying to become us, can use your carbon credits.

My son just called and he caught (2) 44#'s while I'm typing crap.

I think Bush believes that man is having a impact on global climate he is just not willing to sell out America, to appease a bunch of anti-American tree huggers. Give up your own car, boat and heating system. Some 3rd world nation trying to become us, can use your carbon credits.

Bush and his administration has done more to censor science and have federal agencies toe the line more than any administration in history... And it has nothing to do with selling out America. biggest misconception in the 'green' movement.... Since when is becoming more energy efficient, less reliant on foreign oil and more environmentally sound anti-American? Look at the American companies stubbornly cranking out SUV's. They are closing plants while fuel efficient cars/trucks are selling better (i.e. Yota's). Expand that to a national scale, and we're doing the same frigging thing.

I'm not giving up those things, but you can be damn sure I use fuel a lot more carefully then I used to...

I'm not giving up those things, but you can be damn sure I use fuel a lot more carefully then I used to...

I am more aware and carefull also. We try to do our part. I do not want other countries dictating to us how and when we can use energy. I do not want this country to sign any agreement that will do just that. The market will correct the size if vehicles just like it did in the seventies. By the way. we had a 69 Camaro, that had no pollution controlls and got 21 MPG. We hooked it up to the inspection machine and it ran cleaner then new cars. Go figure. Mandates and change can do more harm then good.

I do not want other countries dictating to us how and when we can use energy.

I'd argue the Saudi's et al. indirectly already do that..

I freaking hate the way we kiss their ass. That would be the only good to come out of leaving the middle east. Seeing them go down.

Pheewwww - took a while to catch up.

I haven't made up my mind yet but I am leaning McCain - he's more where I am in the middle than Obama is. Obama simply does not have enough time in grade to be the competent leader that we need (McCain maybe too much time). Maybe in 8 years?

In all, we've been brutally short of leadership in this country for the last 8 (arguably 16) years.

but the problem with capatilism is the rich get richer as they reap the profits from growth, and the poor get poorer as they have to pay more to fuel those profits. I think Obabma is concerned with that aspect. I really dont know to be honest, but it is an issue that needs attending and I dont see McCain looking out for the little guy.Eben, and the problem with too much Democratic Party leadership is that the guy in the middle class, me, pays more and more in the Fuel costs, and more and more to support "services" that are given to people milking the system and people that aren't here legally in the first place.

Example one in Democratic Party politics - look at the upgefucht situation the state of Rhode Island is in. Too much coin going out, not enough coming in. Want to crew things up royally? Apply the charisma of the RI Democratic Party on the national level...

Nope - I haven't made up my mind yet but I think mcCain is closer to where I want to be than Obama.

But the key item may now be that I'll vote whatever it takes so one party does not control both the executive AND legislative branches so the far right and the far left can't screw up this country anymore.

All valid points and I agree.

They don't make men like Ronald Reagan anymore.

you prove good points and i am not disagreeing with you, but the problem with capatilism is the rich get richer as they reap the profits from growth, and the poor get poorer as they have to pay more to fuel those profits. I think Obabma is concerned with that aspect. I really dont know to be honest, but it is an issue that needs attending and I dont see McCain looking out for the little guy.

Should he? Not trying to be a jerk, but we have
- free education
- free libraries
- many programs to help fund college tuition

I think the "little guy" has all the opportunity to make it on his own, it just takes hard work. Some people need help and I believe we should help them. But in my opinion most of today's rich got there by working hard, taking risks, and sacrificing. I think we all have equal opportunity, black white, gay, straight, you name it.

For thousands of years there were political systems that took care of the "little guy" - tyrany, feudal system, etc. The fundamentals that founded this county were ideals that man can govern himself.

[QUOTE=RIJIMMY;594824]Should he? Not trying to be a jerk, but we have
- free education; yes but it needs work, there is another thread all about this....

- free libraries; great resource, under utilized by most...

- many programs to help fund college tuition; Going down the crapper if they are state funded right now, and maybe federal funding is next. URI is trying to get the same $$$ for instate/out of state. WTF is the benefit if you pay taxes in a state, but one of the decent perks like that goes bye bye... Plus overall funding for the state U's is down something like 60% from 30 years ago....

- I'm still a fan of some support on health care, especially for minors (but not a full fledged universal Hillary/Edwards type plan)

Maybe McCain would work on these, maybe not, but I know where he stands on a lot of key issues, and it is far right from where I stand!

from cnn - Then there are the policy differences between the two presumptive major-party nominees for president. John McCain (R) is one of the Senate's most outspoken supporters of the Iraq war, while Barack Obama (D) has opposed it from the start. Senator McCain wants big tax cuts and less government spending; Senator Obama wants tax breaks targeted at the middle class and greater government involvement in job creation. On healthcare, McCain emphasizes consumer choice and market forces, while Obama favors government action that puts the nation on track toward universal coverage.


Iraq war aside, you can basically sum it up by, one practices democracy and one practices socialism

from cnn - Then there are the policy differences between the two presumptive major-party nominees for president. John McCain (R) is one of the Senate's most outspoken supporters of the Iraq war, while Barack Obama (D) has opposed it from the start. Senator McCain wants big tax cuts and less government spending; Senator Obama wants tax breaks targeted at the middle class and greater government involvement in job creation. On healthcare, McCain emphasizes consumer choice and market forces, while Obama favors government action that puts the nation on track toward universal coverage.


Iraq war aside, you can basically sum it up by, one practices democracy and one practices socialism


Nothing new here! They could use the same reporting for every election, state or federal for the last 16 years. I think I heard" the lower the taxes for the middle class" from Duval too. :hang:

universal coverage is socialism?

lets see. We have health insurance, homeowners insurance, car insurance..If you ask me no mater who pays for it- you or tax money, it makes no difference.


to get away from the pooling of money to pay for others expenses, you might as well start a savings account and not have any insurance at all. I dont care where the money comes from, just as long as the system can be improved... and any time you privatize, you open up the costs for profit. :hs: Based on what ever profit levels private insurance company's operate at, why not have the goverment take it all over and create a price cap??

what am I missing here? what is the difference if the goverment provides insurance over private insurance?

universal coverage is socialism?

lets see. We have health insurance, homeowners insurance, car insurance..If you ask me no mater who pays for it- you or tax money, it makes no difference.


to get away from the pooling of money to pay for others expenses, you might as well start a savings account and not have any insurance at all. I dont care where the money comes from, just as long as the system can be improved... and any time you privatize, you open up the costs for profit. :hs: Based on what ever profit levels private insurance company's operate at, why not have the goverment take it all over and create a price cap??

what am I missing here? what is the difference if the goverment provides insurance over private insurance?


They are doing such a great job with Social Security and Medicare I think they should run everything. Hell give them your whole paycheck and they can tell you what to buy and when. And when your kid has to wait for a kidney transplant because of all the paperwork and more needy ( as determined by the goverment) people ahead of him/her I'm sure you will understand.

right... but UCLA just preformed 3 liver transplants for 3 japanese mafia bosses, who paid a %$%$%$%$ load of money so they would get speedy treatment..while there are hundreds of us citizens waiting for one.. including my mother.. which is worse? A slow goverment controled system, or a corrupt profit based private system?

Sorry about your mother. I hope it works out well. Most big Universities are more corrupt the the goverment. They will sell out the whole country for a big donation. How would you feel if the Bush administration was in charge of kidney transplants?

Iraq war aside, you can basically sum it up by, one practices democracy and one practices socialism
Yes, you could sum it up that way...assuming you didn't know what socialism or democracy really were.

-spence

How would you feel if the Bush administration was in charge of kidney transplants?

terrified.

terrified.

Then we agree. See we can reach across the aisles, why can't they?

universal coverage is socialism?

lets see. We have health insurance, homeowners insurance, car insurance..If you ask me no mater who pays for it- you or tax money, it makes no difference.


to get away from the pooling of money to pay for others expenses, you might as well start a savings account and not have any insurance at all. I dont care where the money comes from, just as long as the system can be improved... and any time you privatize, you open up the costs for profit. :hs: Based on what ever profit levels private insurance company's operate at, why not have the goverment take it all over and create a price cap??

what am I missing here? what is the difference if the goverment provides insurance over private insurance?


name one, just one thing the government does well?
What system is run effectively? The beauracracy would cripple routine medical issues. Have you heard Canada's story?

Amtrak

name one, just one thing the government does well?

Spend money.

WHAT DID I WIN?

Amtrak

Amtrack is run horribly. They're so overbudget its painful, half the time they're LUCKY if they're on time.
Lets not forget the Northeast Corridor. Doing 30 through CT? When Acela could be doing damn near 100 and cutting over an hour off the ride time?
Not that commuting via airline is any better.

Netjets is the only way to commute. :hihi:

name one, just one thing the government does well?


Kill people. Maybe they can redeem themselves and save some lives :cheers2:

Kill people. Maybe they can redeem themselves and save some lives :cheers2:

they dont even do that well.

where is happymatt? surely one can not be mad about everything?

did you guys know it requires twice as much energy to be mad as opposed to happy.

group hug guys.. group hug.

Group hugs would go nicely with the group reach arounds happening in this thread.

Wait, that we want perm bases in Iraq is a "secret plan" :rotflmao:

Hasn't this been the MO from day one?

If you don't believe me, go read the neocon manifesto from the PNAC that's to blame for Bush's entire foreign policy. I'd link to their website but it's been suspended ;)

-spence

And just to be sure, after you've read the wacky PNAC position on how American might is "good" for the rest of the world, here's what happened to it's sponsors after Bush took office!

-spence

Amtrak

Didn't we just bail them out not long ago. :kewl:

Didn't we just bail them out not long ago. :kewl:

Yea, just like we bailed out Bear Stearns, which is not a government owned corporation. Amtraks board of directors are appointed by the President

The President will also be picking the person to head up our health care. That's my point.