The talk now is 170/barrel in a couple months and 150 possibly today.

Jesus, At some point we have to drill. This liberal attitude that drilling is not the solution is exactly WHAT GOT US HERE. It is time to drill here and create more domestic supply.

It's not that we don't have the raw capacity, we would still need refinery's

80 pct of offshore leases are untouched at the moment.

The same folks that prevented drilling have prevented refineries as well. Yes we need a few more. You want more jobs...build refineries and drill. The leases are in areas that will not produce like where they want to go. Most places had test wells and produced little to nothing. They had 6 wells on the Grand Banks...not much there.
They only want t 2000 acres in ANWAR which is 1/2 of 1% of the area.
Image how bad things will be in 10 years if you don't start drilling here....just from a domestic security, not to mention the economy.

I am for developing most alternatives (and a big proponent of nuclear) as well but they are a ways off as well. So lets get it in gear, build baby build!

Lets face it you are not going to see a solar powered airliner in our children's lifetimes. Imagine what the cost of travel, shipping, and goods will be with $ 50-100/gallon gasoline. This could happen if they don't start now. Forget about the pleasure boating industry... this is history now. No new boats (of any size...those are the ones with profits) are selling at all, none. Most will be gone forever after a couple more years of this.

Think about it, why would the oil companys want to produce more oil if they can get more for less. Alternate energy is the answer, that's what will drop the price.

I hear Katama and Stonewall beach are likely sites for wells!

If we could only get stuff like this accepted.

http://www.hcnonline.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19786825&BRD=1574&PAG=461&dept_id=639295&rfi=6

Rather than squelched by oil companies.

Forget the feds too, they won't do it.

Alternative energy is the answer, but it requires a couple things:

--More than lip service from the politicians (Congress) who are going to undo everything Bush (I'm still waiting after 2 years)

--Something to hold us over (oil) for the short term (5-10 years) while truly viable replacements are developed and brought out of the labs to production levels.

There has been no new infastructure added in this country since the 70's in terms of refining capability.

We are so focused on ethanol, does anyone remember that Otto Diesel developed the diesel engine so farmers could burn oil they produced themselves??

Alternatives will not be the answer for a loooooong time. It took over a 100 years to build this infrastructure and the entire world economy is powered by it. You can't tare it down overnight without massive pain, and the poor will suffer them most. You need to transition or the pain will be enormous. Unfortunately the liberals are vested in high oil prices...I honestly feel they believe have something to gain if oil is so high it causes great pain to others. Unfortunately, the only economic plan they have is based on Robin Hood.


If there was oil in my backyard, I would drill for it, but there ain't. Just sand, clay and seawater.

Very very simple.
ANWR will have no effect on oil prices.
The end.

Very very simple.
ANWR will have no effect on oil prices.
The end.

Total Agreement, lease expansion is just another land grab by the private sector

Paid a record $86 today to fill my explorer. Last year I was gawking at the pump when I paid $60 to fill it.

There's a consensus among many economists that speculation is driving this to a large degree also. At some point the specs will exit and prices will pull way back, but we may see 200/bbl first.

Boone Pickens was on CNBC yesterday pushing for implementation of wind turbines in the great plains as a renewable energy source. Turbines on the cape are sounding better all the time.

I really don't understand why we lease our oil to the oil companies and buy it from them at what the market will bear. As much as I'm not a fan of big government, there is no reason why we need Exxon and mobil to drill our own oil and then sell it back to us, or worse yet, sell it abroad.

If we can build stealth fighters, why can't we have a national oil dept that just drills our own oil and only sells it domestically at cost. The entire global econmy is hostage to the greed of the oil markets.

Jesus, At some point we have to drill. This liberal attitude that drilling is not the solution is exactly WHAT GOT US HERE. It is time to drill here and create more domestic supply.
This isn't a liberal vs conservative issue alone. There's been a good number of conservatives against a lot of offshore drilling for instance, particularly in the Gulf. Go ask Jeb :)

And the reason we don't have new refineries is because industry was trashing this great country 50 years ago. Let them build again and you get more health and environmental issues. This is a bigger problem than just writing new legislation.

Liberals love expensive energy? Now that's a new one...If anything conservatives should be loving high energy costs as it's the only thing that's going to push industry to innovate and get our economy moving.

Drilling in ANWAR will probably happen, as will the Gulf, but unless we want the government to sieze production all we're doing is adding more the global supply, and global supply isn't the big issue at the moment.

-spence

Your naive, You said that 10 years ago...and this is what that thinking produced we now have now ...little domestic oil supply. I see it as more of a security matter. It is that very thinking that has reduced the security of this country.

Private sector Land grab? that is laughable. You are in the "just say no to anything" camp. Altatives just don't have the energy density that is required to meet real needs of people. Yes a farmer or a rural bare bones home can get buy but a couple of apartment buildings in Miami in July will require an AC load that will will require an windfarm the area of the state of RI. Do the numbers.

Sorry, you have to tell us all how airplanes will be powered for the next 100 years. Windmills I guess eh?

Go take a Physics class and get back to me. Please show me how alternatives (besides nukes) will drive this world, they cant.

5-10 years? add another zero. REALLY! It takes 5-10 years for GM to introduce a new car and that is fast! More like 50-100 years. We need some domestic supply of oil, drilling here will produce that. What is your problem with drilling wherever we can?

Nuclear submarine technology + Fords declining sales = Nuclear powered Expeditions.

Nuclear is really the way to go for powering cities and towns.

I would wager it will be $200 /barrel by the end of the year.

We need a unified national resolve to develop realistic alternatives to fossil fuels. I don't believe that the US political system is capable of unifying the US towards that goal. The US political process is interested in attaining and remaining in officer/power by any means, that is their goal and always will be.

I do believe new advances are on the horizon, but only through private sector technology working towards the goal, in spite of our elected offiicials, not because of them, though they will smile and take credit when it happens.

I don't know what the answer is, I'm just not smart enough. I am bright enough to know that if our government doesn't do something pretty quick the economic structure of this country will completely dissolve and we will be in the Great Depression of the Millinium.

One thing I do know is that practical alternatives will not be available to power this nation for at LEAST 40 years. Yeah we could slap up some wind mills in the mean time but they will do very little in the big picture. I am not against them but they don't produce very much and require a lot of space and equipment.

One thing is many seem to tie together oil with electrical production. We actually use very very little oil to directly produce electricity. We use mostly coal and hydro. If you want a lot of electrical and low carbon output nuke is your best choice.

For vehicles, we need all electric vehicles. (charged at home with nuke plants providing the power) The problem is electric storage...batteries don't cut it. We are many years away from a dramatically advanced storage device. We need gas to carry us over. Things like ethanol are silly pipe dreams. It takes 1700 gallons of water and 4 acres of corn to produce a single gallon of ethanol. It is not WORTH it. Algae (pond scum) is actually a better source of fuel...as it can double in mass every 24 hours in the right conditions. Even so, the first plant to produce it in substantial amounts could not be here for 10-12 years. We need DOMESTIC OIL to provide the transition time...IMO.

You can't get there from here with just alternatives, noway nohow. I think most will realize this but I think when oil hits 250/barrel the gov't will step in and mandate drilling and refinery development.

i just cant believe world demand has doubled the price of oil in 4 years, just doenst seem reasonable. I've read all the explanations but still dont buy it.

its more than worldwide demand. look at the value of the dollar over the last 4 years....:yak4:

its more than worldwide demand. look at the value of the dollar over the last 4 years....:yak4:

Jimmy I agree.
Zacs, it has to be a mix of that, demand to a smaller degree and speculation.

Jimmy I agree.
Zacs, it has to be a mix of that, demand to a smaller degree and speculation.


the weak dollar is much more then you realize.

Look at it this way....

5 years ago, 1 dollar bought .9 Euro
today, 1 dollar buys .6 Euro

that is a significant decline.

this means that a dollar today is buying only 2/3 of what it did 5 years ago for any globally traded commodity.

the weak dollar is much more then you realize.

Look at it this way....

5 years ago, 1 dollar bought .9 Euro
today, 1 dollar buys .6 Euro

that is a significant decline.

this means that a dollar today is buying only 2/3 of what it did 5 years ago for any globally traded commodity.

wow - I went to Europe in 2001 and 1 dollar bought @ 1.15 E

The talk now is 170/barrel in a couple months and 150 possibly today.


Yeah, only if we're really lucky :hs:

I'd bet it's going to be considerably higher than that and we're going to have to accept a new paradigm on how we live our daily lives. And that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Those of us who grew up in the '50's and 60's will be able to say we had the best of it in terms of cheap energy and all that it brought us. On the other hand, it's also what brought us to the situation we're in now. We've got to get used to it because this is the tipping point and the chickens are just now coming home to roost.

So get used to using a bicycle. I do - I bought a new mountain bike at the beginning of the summer and use it to go to work, shop, run errands, etc and feel better than I have in a long time. What's the problem?

For those of you - like me - that have SUV's, dump 'em and get something more fuel efficient unless you have the means to pay $100+ for a fill up in the very near future. Or walk, it's real cheap.

You know, there's a nice girl I see at work who's a twenty-something and when she saw me on a mountain bike she was stunned (okay, maybe the white hair and matching mustache had something to do with it) - but when I told her I rode 2 miles to work and 2 miles home - with another couple around the complex, she acted like she couldn't comprehend anybody doing that and certainly not herself.

More than 30 years ago we had a gas crunch and people got rid of their gas hog sedans for imports, Japanese or otherwise. Remember? And as soon as gas got cheap again, people went back to their gas guzzlers! How is that the government's fault? These are all self-inflicted wounds.

So, get used to turning off your lights and electronic devices at home when not in use. Turn your thermostat down - or up - depending on the season. Brush your teeth and say your prayers. You hear this crap all the time and now we'll all have to put it into practice - we'll not only live, we'll be better for it in the long run.

The way I see it, the United States is at a tipping point right now on a lot of fronts and if you use what you have wisely, you'll get through it.

Here endeth the Gospel for today.

Myself, I'm going for a bike ride in ten minutes or so :)

I've got some errands to run.

wow - I went to Europe in 2001 and 1 dollar bought @ 1.15 E


i know... its crazy. you would think it would be the number one story on the news every night. it barely gets a mention, because i think most Americans don't understand how currency effects things.

It is especially hard for a guy like me that sells imported commodity (seafood). I have to tell this story day in and day out, to people who should understand it. They usually just look at me and scratch their head when I tell them this is the reason their prices are increasing 15% year over year.

we're screwed... plain and simple.

oh.. if we drill anwar, oil prices will not go down, but the oil companies who drill it will make a lot more profit off of it because its closer to us than the middle east.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DjfssrKGsBU

[QUOTE=Crafty Angler;604193]Yeah, only if we're really lucky :hs:





So get used to using a bicycle. I do - I bought a new mountain bike at the beginning of the summer and use it to go to work, shop, run errands, etc and feel better than I have in a long time. What's the problem?

For those of you - like me - that have SUV's, dump 'em and get something more fuel efficient unless you have the means to pay $100+ for a fill up in the very near future. Or walk, it's real cheap.





this maybe all fine and well for those who sit at their work place and need nothing but a puter and a pencil...but I'd like to see you carry 2 tons of tools back and forth to work on your bike.It also requires a gas hog to tote those tools to each job...plus there isn't any fuel efficient car big enough to do the job of hauling a trailer full of said tools......now what do you do?

[QUOTE]For those of you - like me - that have SUV's, dump 'em and get something more fuel efficient unless you have the means to pay $100+ for a fill up in the very near future. Or walk, it's real cheap.[QUOTE]


Yeah, I tend to agree but consider this.... I have a Chevy 1500 pickup that is 9 years old. It's paid for. It has just over 100K on it. Everything in that truck is either broken, or on it's way out, A/C is dead, dash lights are half gone, the rear view mirrors have stopped working, etc, etc, IMHO, it's a POS....

BUT the engine starts each day no matter what.

So, what would be gained to buy a Honda Accord that will cost me $400/month and gas will still cost me $4.27 a gallon? Financially, the dollars and cents don't compute.

When this truck dies, in another ten years I hope, then I will mostly likely buy smaller.

What can tow a 4500 lb boat and get better than 18 mpg not towing

i just cant believe world demand has doubled the price of oil in 4 years, just doenst seem reasonable. I've read all the explanations but still dont buy it.

I believe that market speculation is 66% of the run up. Even the Saudis have said 40% is speculation. All the capital markets are in decline the only place to make money is in commodities. Remember the sugar run-up? the siliver run-up? Oil is no different other than we all use it.

Speculation,obviously is a huge part of it,but why?What do they know,that we don't?I saw a documentary on the Sundance channel,While I don't normally buy into everything I see on tv,this was a pretty convincing show(I believe it's called Crude Awakening)Anyway,according to them,we (as a planet)have "peaked",meaning we will pump less oil tomorrow,than we did today,forever.I don't claim to be an expert,or that this is fact,just what I saw.The show went on to explain how it takes 60 bbls of oil,to produce 20 bbls of Ethanol.Not exact numbers,but you get my meaning.Same thing with Bio-diesel,solar,and most of the "alternatives".The fact is,we ARE screwed.All of us.
They're telling us we have 75 years,maybe it's only ten.As the most powerful country in the world,we'll have to decide whether or not we want to invade countries to take their oil.I mean really to take it.Not like this Iraq thing.If that really were our goal,I personally think we'd OWN it now.However,in the next few years,We'll have to decide it.
As far as libs vs cons,I don't think it's an issue.How many refineries did Clinton build?The smart money out there right now,is in oil.I would bet big $,that both Obama and McCain have money in it,as well as Bush,the Clintons,Kerry,Gore,Et,al....
In my own opinion,this has the potential to topple our economy,and if we fall,who stands?
Once you can't afford to go to work,what then?
Sorry for the rant,but,I seriously think we are in for hard times.You can invest in whatever you'd like,but me,I'm buying bullets.

China has upped it's oil demand by 20% percent in 4 yrs.You and I have caused this.Why?We shop at Walmart,and the dollar stores.There are almost NO,US built products there.You save 60 cents on a toothbrush,built by a 6 yr old chinese kid,and the oil co's send more oil there,to those factories.We aren't even trying to help ourselves.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edBoa6IYFEs

add a sidecar ya crusty old fart :wave:

Frig the tools....I'll just get me a big bag of drugs and hit some street corner....the sign will read" drugs are cheaper then gas" why ride when you can fly to your next job site.Then I'll get hauled in for not having a permit to sell.:cool:

Got me a box in the mail.....HOT DAM.... :thanks::bgi:

[QUOTE]
Yeah, I tend to agree but consider this.... I have a Chevy 1500 pickup that is 9 years old. It's paid for. It has just over 100K on it. Everything in that truck is either broken, or on it's way out, A/C is dead, dash lights are half gone, the rear view mirrors have stopped working, etc, etc, IMHO, it's a POS....[QUOTE]

Hey, Hooper - I hear ya. I've got a Jeep that's 14 years old with over 100K and that's my only vehicle. And it needs a bunch of repairs too - I'll keep my fingers crossed and do 'em when I can, that's all you can do.

A friend recently got a lightly used 2007 Toyota Matrix and the nut on a car like that is probably $275 a month or so. It gets 33 MPG. I'll probably look for something like that for the Mrs.when the time comes, she'd love it. I'll keep the Jeep as my fish wagon but it takes me literally about 5 minutes from my front door to having my feet on the rocks so the 20 MPG won't kill me.

As in all things, YMMV - this is what works for me in my situation, everyone needs to find their own solution bit by bit and it's not easy for anyone unless you're a trust fund kid..

It all depends on how much you drive your vehicle each year and how much fiscal pain you can afford. Everyone has a different threshold I guess... I paid 4.85 to fill up an 02 Yukon XL the other day (that has 50K on it, runs perfect, everything works and cost me nothing other than gas and insurance). It was over a $100 to fill it up. But I drive less than 6500 miles per year .Which is about 2K in annual fuel costs, now this vehicle can hold 9 people and take them all over sand to a nice day on a remote beach, can tow a boat up to 10000#, run in deep snow on a mid winter skis trip and provide me and my family more safety than ANY car on the road no question and gets 20 mpg on the highway and 15 local. A econ-o-box only gets 30 mpg and does NONE of the above and is a death trap if you get in an accident. So I am going to risk my life and change my lifestyle for 10 mpg? yeah right.
Now the boat....is another story. I could spend 2K/month in fuel very easily. I went to the gas dock yesterday (4.79...it is cheaper at the dock here!)and stopped at $500 and it still wasn't full. I hope to get two weeks on that if I stretch it and do go anyplace too far. I am cutting back on boat travel this year.

Now the boat....is another story. I could spend 2K/month in fuel very easily. I went to the gas dock yesterday (4.79...it is cheaper at the dock here!)and stopped at $500 and it still wasn't full. I hope to get two weeks on that if I stretch it and do go anyplace too far. I am cutting back on boat travel this year.

:crying:

Takes a lot of the fun out of it doesn't it?!

I haven't even taken the shrink wrap off my boat this year. Anyone interested in a 2150 Hydrasports?

IMHO oil has gone up because of 1) increase in world demand and 2) decrease in the dollar. Speculation has had little affect.

This country has been living the good life for too long and on credit no less. Things are on track to change. Big bank failures are next on the horizon with John Q Taxpayer footing the bill. The government needs to let the investors take the fall there (Fannie and Freddie in particular). That includes individual home owners (investors?) that bought homes they coulnd't afford and didn't read the fine print on the rediculous mortgage contracts they were signing.

Make sure your savings is safe. I just got a call that one of my CD's was going to be paid by the FDIC with the Indymac failure. That is just the beginning.

Good luck to us all.

Remember the S and L bailout? Didn't like 1000+ banks go under in the 1980's?

Granted the banks are bigger this time, but we've been through this before.

-spence

What can tow a 4500 lb boat and get better than 18 mpg not towing

Nisaan Pathfinder 18-22 highway
tows 6000lb max

CNN.COM

Crude falls $6.45 a barrel - 2nd largest price drop in dollar terms - as Fed chief indicates inflation and high fuel prices will cut into U.S. demand for oil.

This is an interesting read. I almost planted a garden this year. In spite of my travel schedule I think I'll give it a try next year.

It's not just cars that are eating up our oil....

Talk about fat, dumb and happy....we ship alaskan salmon to China to be filleted and shipped back to the US. We can't even cut our own fish and fertilize US soil with the remains....

http://www.alternet.org/story/90785/

I all saw T Bones Pickens plan it is a step in the right direction can wind power help it sure can last time I looked some of those windmill are capable of gen 5 mega watts of power so ten and a half windmills would replace the Coal fired plant just across the river from where I live which is on of the dirty dozen that you read about in mass. ON the Nat gas part I know in my neck of the woods the gas line is tapped out untill they either add another line or build another compresser station. Wind, solar, nukes, conservation, coal and here in New England wood fired plants all will help cut are depence on oil.
ONe good thing about T plan is we can put up the wind mills pretty quickly and start our depence right now. THomT