Guys,
Fishing eels the other night with very good successs I had probably the biggest bass on of my lifetime. She made 4 great runs tearing out lots of line. I was constantly applying pressure with my rod bent in half the whole time, and I was unable to turn the fish or take even one turn of the reel. Then it happened, the line came limp and I reeled in my hook with eel still on. Heartbroken I wondered if I had applied too much pressure on the fish and actually tore the hook out of its mouth.
Do you think this is possible???? Now I did not have the drag too tight either, I had enough drag where I was comfortable that any fish could take line without the line breaking, and in fact had caught a couple fish over 40" already that night so I thought the drag was set properly.
What do you think???? Too much pressure?????
MZ

I don't know Marc, might not have been too much pressure.Sometimes they just come unbuttoned. Was it at least a 6/0 hook? Nothing you can do about it I guess, if you loosened the drag that's just all the more line to reel back in. The hook probally just tore out.

Try again ,good luck

Bummer, man I hate it when that happens. I had a similar fish on a few years back and I had 30# spiderwire on an Abu 6500C and that fish took line at will. I had the drag pretty tight, but the line payed out when the fish ran. Actually I wouldn't even call it a run, fast, but not screeming. It just took my jerkbait and swam towards England. Never turned her and had actually started off in persuit with the trolling motor, because she had me close to my mono backing. Then like your fish, she just came unbuttoned.

I would have liked to have gotten a look at her, but then if I new it was the large of a lifetime and she came unglued I would have really been depressed. Spent the rest of the season building that one up in my mind, must have been close to 65 I'd say, lol.

Tight lines.

Maybe but probably not. Like the bumper sticker, ' happens. When Saltheart and I were fishing Cohassett a month ago, he had a fish that he worked with a very light drag in a rock garden. My drag would have been too tight and would have certainly broke off the fish as he brought it in with the hook OUTSIDE the lower jaw with a sliver of skin about 1/16th of an inch holding her on. On the other hand, a 35#plus fish probably would have the upper hand in the boulder field, at least initially...

Reasons run from the hook not finding a good place to too much pressure to the fish being smart, to just not being your day, to.... :P

What kind of hooks were you using??

Its very rare to lose a bass once hooked with an eel with a single hook.Usually,the line breaks.

Here is what I think happend.Its very important to let the fish run with the eel long enough for her to get the eel down deep!! The best are the ones that are hooked right in the middle of the throat.Most likely you set up on the fish to early and your hook was only holding the fish in the lip.Once a bass hits,let her run to at least a ten count then set your hook hard and set it a couple of times.You want that hook down deep in the throat.The only way that fish is getting off is if your line breaks.

How many times have you landed a bass and saw the hook only hanging from a thread of the lip?? This is a sure sighn that you set up on the fish to fast and didnt let her run long enough.

How do you know? Once the bass hits she runs,Then you almost always feel the fish stop and then run again,that second run is when you want to set that hook home!!

One other possible problem that does happen now and then is that the fish has the hook in the throat but, during the fight the hook pulls free and rehooks in the lip on the way out giving you a bad situation but still,this is rare as long as you let the fish run long enough and then you set the hook with authority.

Use 6/0 mustad 94150 short shank live bait hooks they seem to work the best out of anything I have ever used.I have tries the gamagatsu and have acually had them bend open on a good fish.Make sure the hook is honed to a razor sharp point with a small mill file,I always have one with me.It insures you get a solid and deep hook set..

Marc, I am assuming you are either fishing that point in OL or a park in W. In either case you have many boulders and because of that you need to put pressure on the fish to keep it out of the rocks. If you let it run you probably would have posted "I had the biggest fish of my life on but it wrapped me around a rock", either way the fish is gone. If you were fishing more open waters then I would say let it run and keep steady pressure on the fish. Fish tend to swim slowly back in the direction of the pressure once beat. I agree with what the #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^& says, every one of the fish I caught last Saturday was hooked in the throat but because the fish is so big it was easy to reach right in and unhook them. Anyway glad to here the big girls are still down there....

I was using a Gamagatsu 6/0 octopus hook. I use a mix of those and the mustad 6/0 short shanks. I like the gamagatsu becuase they are razor sharp.
What I do is retreive my eel with the rod tip as high as possible, then when I feel the hit I drop the tip down as far as I can to give slack and then when I feel the tension again I set the hook. With this I either get the hook set in the throat or the mouth. I don't like the hook set in the throat because it takes longer to get out of the fish and sometimes I can't get it out without hurting the fish. So that's why I don't open the bail and let the fish run.
But I guess I paid the consequenses the other night by hooking the fish in the mouth!
MZ

Mark, if you want a big fish then dont feel bad for them.Treat every hit as if it were a 50lb fish!! you cant tell by the hit how big a bass is. The idea is to land fish here!! Droping the tip is not enough,let the fish run first and make sure the fish has it down! Catch them first,weigh them later!! No mercy!!! The idea is catching fish..

The dilemas of eelfishing. I did some trys a couple years ago with circle hooks and I firmly believe that they are better for bait fishing with the EXCEPTION of live eels. I have not tried them with other live bait but I cannot see how they would work well through the dorsal of a live-lined mack. I have no doubt that when Bill fishes a live eel that he does it the best way. I've seen him at work. Rod high, drop tip, let run, set hook, fish on! One thing I don't do as long as #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^& does is let the fish run. As a result, I also miss more fish because of that. The other thing I see people do that really puzzles me is WHY WOULD YOU RUN THE HOOK THROUGH THE EYES?? That can't be good for the eel!! Sure, you'll snag a little more and pick up more weeds when you give the eel that tracheotomy but the eels keep longer and seems better balanced than coming through one eye with the hook off 45degrees....

A given bass that is lip hooked is a sure indicator of nothing. You don't always get a chance to do things the ideal way. Sometimes when a bass hits the eel , it gets hooked instantly.When this happens , there is no chance to allow the bass to swallow the eel then set. You got to work with whatever you get for a hook up. Repeatedly lip hooking bass while fishing live eels may mean you have to change your hook set timing. However if you can only land fish that are solidly hooked deep behind the crusher , you are going to miss a lot of good oppurtunities.
To me , the key is to keep enough bend in the rod to insure that at no time does the tension keeping that hook in get relieved. This is done by keeping the rod tip high , and playing the drag based on the pole bend. My drag is set such that a 10 or 12 pound fish cannot take more than a few yards. That's as tight as I can trust it to be smooth. Any more drag is applied with the thumb on the spool. using my thumb also allows me to feel the energy level of the fish. I would say there is the run , the stop , then the retrieve , then the landing.
On the run you want to cause the fish to expend energy. The energy expended by the fish is the applied force times the distance over which the fish moves against that force. If you were to graph the energy expenditure by the fish , you'd find that far more energy is expended by allowing the fish to run under a good line pull rather than clamping down and holding the fish still at near line breaking tension. For those technically inclined , the energy is the area of the force displacement curve. That is the force times the distance. If you visuallize the graph , you can see that we can sit at some force level , say 80 percent of breaking load of the line , and extend the x axis (displacement) way out by allowing the fish to run. You can extend that displacemnet 200 to 500% if you want. On the other hand , you can only increase the tension or applied force by 20% then the line breaks. Therefore you can cause that fish to expend 10 to 25 times the energy if you allow the fish to run against a well tuned drag than you can by maximizing the tension and risking a breakoff. Well tuned being high tension but not locked down.
Now that you understand the energy expenditure aspect of landing the fish (simply the force times the distance) , the next thing is to be able to sense the power drop. Power is the rate at which that fish can expend energy. At first , the fish is like a new battery. The little toy car goes like hell when the batteries are fresh. As the fish expends energy by covering distance against the drag force , it starts to use up its stored energy and its ability to apply that energy at a fast rate goes down. The fish is now fighting with low power. The fisherman feels this lose of power generating ability by noting that the speed of the run begins to slow. When you feel this lose of power by the fish , you have to slowly but firmly apply more and more pressure to stop the fish. This now puts you into a dangerous time for the fish to become unbuttoned. Since it can no longer take line against your now fully thumbed drag , its liable to run sideways or even back at you. Thats when you have to be able to take up line quickly to keep the rod bent. I believe more fish are lost at this point in the fight than any other except the last 10 yards.
Now you have stopped the fish and you must retrieve all the line without giving even an instant when the line loses tension. Finally that fish comes in within about 30 feet or less of shore. Now you have another problem to deal with. In that close , the leverage on the rod caused by the decreased distance from the fish gets high. If the fish is brought in too quickly without allowing a good expenditure in its energy , it will at the last second when it sees its prey (you) put out a big burst of energy at a high power level. In close like that , the line and rod can't really absorb the power and therefore the hook gets a high pull force and some side to side leveraging. That often causes the hook to tear out. In addition to tiring the fish more before attempting to land it , backing up from the water to increase the distance from the hook to the rod tip helps. Lastly , use any wave motion available to help the last 10 feet. A real wave or even a boat wake can help a lot to slide that fish up on the sand where you can then quickly move forward and grab it.
Anyway , thats how I land big fish. Its grounded in science and has proven itself in practice. The exact layout of the area , pilings , boulders etc may mean you have to inprovise but the basics are always the same. Tire the fish , sense its lose in power , stop the fish , retrieve the fish , land the fish.
My guess is that the hook didn't rip out on Marc. My guess is that after the runs described , that fish had lost it power and turned and ran at him. It was probably mechanically hooked but the point wasn't in(this happens a lot too) .
This turned into a long post. My guess is that few fisherman understand the line tension , run distance , energy , power relationships involved in landing a fish. Many do it just right because they have learned through experience. For those who neither understand nor have the experience to have learned the hard way , I hope this post helps.

#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, I knew you would say something like that as soon as I hit the post button, and you are absolutely correct! Sometimes when the fish are not taking the eels good, I will give them line, but most of the time I'm happy with the drop the tip and hit on the pickup technique, and I have been successful at it for quite a few years now.

Saltheart that was a very technical reply, and very helpful at that. I feel that I had the perfect drag set, because I did allow the fish to run while applying constant pressure without the line breaking like you say, expending the fish's energy. But this fish never stopped and did not turn into me, there was never a bit of slack, and was always a major bend in the rod, and I actually felt the hook "tear" out of the fish's mouth which is exactly why I started this post asking if I put "too much pressure" on this fish and tore it out because of that.

While we're on the subject, do you guys think a hook will rot out of a fish's throat allowing that fish to live??????

MZ

A little to technical???

There is not that much science to it at all.I have been fishing eels for alot of years and, you shoud always let the fish run with the eel.Reapeted lip hooking is definatly positivly a sighn that you are setting up TO SOON!! 100% For sure.When it happens all the time you are setting up to soon!!! Sure once in a while you will lip hook a bass but, 90 percent of the time the bass will have that hook right in the center of the back of the throat,right where you want it!!

Small fish will run and drop the eel right away,large bass suck it in and 90percent of the time wont drop it.

Once you get the hit,drop the rod and hit the clutch,let the fish run to a 8 or 10 count then set the hook,simple as that.I cant almost count on two hands the amount of bass I have lost eel fishing.Most bass are lost because of poor drag adjustment and and inexperiance fighting fish in and around rocks.Small bass grab the tail of the eel more often than not and, will run with it a long way and still drop it.


Large bass will grab the eel,run and then stop,swallow the eel and run again,thats when you set the hook.

The tecnique of setting fast is purely for "conservation" purposes this is done to try to hook the fish in the lips.You will lose more fish than you catch this way.Like I said before,catch them first and weigh them later.


It is almost IMPOSSIBLE for a bass to "hook themselves" on a single hook with slack line.And, even it happens it will be a very weak connection to the fish.You need to set the hook hard! I have had bass eject the eel out the gills,which to me clearly shows that the big girls suck that eel down!!

While I appreciate salthearts extremely tecnical respone to your post,It really much simpler than that.I certainly would not have wanted my 52lb fish lip hooked? would you??

The other problem you have is that some bass hit and then swim in,right at you! Now what do you do exept reel as fast as you can to catch up with the slack,These fish more often than not are lip hooked also because you dont have the time to wait anylonger to set.

As long as a bass does not feel tension ,the bass will not drop that eel!! Especially if she is hungry and big!

Here is s stry for you,that has happend more than once to me: I have had hits where the bass took of so fast that it "backlashed" my reel! I would then let the bass run until the spool was clear and the line straightend out,I then set the hook and had my bass.

Its hard to say how far they run on a 8 or 10 count but it is certain that the dont run so far as to make hook setting difficult.

It comes down to a "feel" and experiance as to when to ram the hook home!! All hits and situations present different,How long and how far you let them run depends on any number of things,where you are, how boulder strewn the shore is,if the bass are picky..Etc........

I could let you talk to many,many eperianced bass fisherman who will tell you that 99% of the time when a fish drops an eel after a good run,said fish was a small bass.

Back to what saly said, The only enviroment where a bass would hook themselves on an eel and be a solid hookup would be a place of strong current,like a breachway or something along those lines.

Its all about feel and timing.I have Litterely,thosands of bass caught on eels! I think I know what there habits are by now and, one important one is this,If Im at a spot and getting tons of hits and drops then, I know im in a school of dink bass! and its time to move!!

After reading salty's post, I agree on how he "fights " a fish(with some exeptions), what Im talking about is when you "hook" the fish,You cant fight a fish that isnt hooked? and a poor hookset with decrease your odds of landing a fish.

Saltheart did not mention the other factor I talked about which was when a hook pulls from its original location and then re hooks the fish in a different spot,this always happens with plugs and big bass and, happens with eels also.

Im sorry, when you are fighting a big bass in a boulder field like whats out at block island,you just dont have the time to play with a bass until she is tierd,The fisherman is in charge , not the fish.Letting a fish have its head is the worst thing you could do in and amongst rocks.Sometimes you have to put some muscle to the fish.If you breaking off then you need to adjust your gear for the situation,IE,Dont fish 15pound test in a current loaded with boulders! you may have to use 30 or 40lb test and a heay leader that can stand the abrasion of rubbing on rocks!

The more you play with a bass in the rocks,the more your line is being chewed up! There is a point in time where you have to make that fish do what you want that fish to do!! Not the other way around! Or you will have lots of line breaks.

You can get away with that stuff on a wide open sandy beach at cape cod but, you will never land a bass at block island playing that game.

I wonder? If any of you know just how powerfull a 40lb bass is in an enviroment she was meant to be in? The rocks and boulders!! Add to that a big sea that is wind whipped and you will find out that the play and wait and tier game will fail! Some of those bass will bust you of in the first run!

There is a time and place for "finese" fishing.Boulder strewn shores+rough water+wind+big bass is not the place! Use heavier gear and fight a bass with all you can muster,trust your equipment and make sure it can do the job.

The reason I say that repeatedly lip hooking bass "may" indicate that you have to change you hook set technique is because other things besides the wait to set can cause repeated lip hooks rather than a deep hook. One thing is too small a hook. Another is hooking the eel wrong with a properly sized hook.
To answere the last question , will the hook rot out? The answere is yes but if its stainless , it will take a long time. A regular steel hook will rot out very fast , perhaps less than a day do to the very corrosive nature of fishes stomach juices. Its a reglar thing for catch and release fisherman to cut the line and let the fish swim away with the hook still in them. Its far more likely the bass will survive until the hook rots out than it is if you go digging into its guts or pull its belly out by yanking hard. You should always eel with plain steel hooks not stainless (my opinion of course). There are two reasons. The first is that a plain steel hook will hold a better edge than a Stainless hook so you can sharpen it better. The second is that since many fish do get deep hooked eeling , the plain steel hook will rot out quickly if its too deep to retrieve.

Wow.

You know you are among the greats when fishing can be discussed, literally, as a science. Physics class was never this complex.

As an average, but improving, eel fisherman I'm really enjoying this thread. Thanks, guys.

I aggree with saltheart,The hook rots out fast as long as its not stainless.Most eel hooked bass that break free are not in real danger because the furthest the hook goes is the throat.

I wonder about bass that break off with a plug in there maw?? Especially the ones that are hooked in both the lower and upper jaw? Its a long time before that fish can eat again!! Plus they cant breath all that well??

Marcs question was how did he lose the fish on a run into the wide open. He didn't lose it in the rocks. How to land fish around boulders and other structure such as pilings is another topic. Maybe I can get some time to write a too technical post about that too! :)
In short , my philosphy around boulders is to use a longer rod (I like 10.5 to 12 feet) , an oversize leader (50 LB Ande) , and high test running line. Choose you perch carefully , and be prepared to "put the boots" to the fish if needed.
Sometime I'll have to tell the story about the Mexican Standoff I once had with a big fish at Fresh Pond Rocks. I was praying for the tide to go out that day!!

Wow, this is good stuff!!! 8)
A classic display of the Laws of Physics and the experience of an Old Salt, well - two salts actually... That was very good - both sides of the coin.
On maintaining constant pressure around 80% of the line breaking test, that is all well and good but two things come to mind; How many people really maintain good, low or no damage line on their reels? and have any of you actually tested how many pounds of pressure is applied by the rod on the fish? Say if you set 10#s of drag on your 20# test line, now you do that right on your drag but has anyone worked out a WAG on the amount of pressure applied at the hook on your typical sturdy surfrod??

This is a very enlightning thread... good work guys...

As far as the hooks go - go with the cheap Mustads and SHARPEN them, They are cheap, $10 for 100 count and as everyone knows, they'll rust out pretty quick. But they are cut from ultra-dull equipment }>

I have read that a fish can apply no more than 1/2 their body weight in force on the end of the line without a strong current to assist them. If you want to try something fun place a 15 lb weight on the end of your line a try to lift it off the floor you will be amazed at how much effort it will take......I haven't felt a 30 lb fish pull that hard....................

Looks like class is in session. Some good information and not much I could add. I agree with the #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^& on letting the fish run, except around some of the ledges I fish in the Cohasset area. If you let them run too long, you run the risk of the fish weaving your line through a maze of bolders.

On the question of the hook rotting out, I do have one thing to add, make sure you leave about 8-10 inches of line attached to the hook. There have been studies done on the subject, but I couldn't find my old link to the report, however it indicated that hooks left in without any line attached severely affected the fishes ability to continue to feee. The line apparently has a beneficial effect by keeping the hook shank off to the side or something to that affect.

Tight lines, hope some of you have a chance to practice all this soon.

Jeff, I have had 30lb fish that faught like hell! and I have had 30lb fish come in like a wet rag!!

Sometimes I think it is were they are hooked.Fish that are hooked down deep in the throat tend to "follow" the pressure and move in the direction of the line you are retrieving,I think this is certainly due to the fact that the bass is in some type of pain pulling against your effort.

Lip hooked bass seem to fight totally different ,as its does not give them as mush distress.

Gut hooked bass dont fight well either!! its obvious why.

I have had 20lb fish fool me! They faught like they weighed 35lbs!!

Good question about the actual load on the hook. That load can be tremendous. the line can only withstand a force along its length. If you pull sideways , the string just points in a different direction so the load is again along its axis. A hook though can be pulled by that line in all directions. If you were to stick a hook nto a side of beef and pull straight down the shank , I doubt you could get that hook to bend or come out. however , if you were to pull sideways to the hook axis , you could easily twist the shank out of line with the point out to the side. Once bent sideways , you could then pull straight down the shank again and easily pull the point out since the "hook" part is no longer pulling the point in but almost staright out. Not a perfect description but you get the idea. Because the hook can be subjected to "bending moments" , It sees much higher stress than that seen by the straight line pull of the line.
another thing I've seen even in 7/0 forge Mustads id the slight opening of the gap of the hook if the point is stuck but not sunk in to the apex of the hook bend. I would say that an opening of that gap of only about 30 degrees from straight back along the shaft results in a lot of the line pull then going into pulling the point out rather than sinking it in further.
I find it interesting since I can pull with my arms and break even the fifty LB spectron but I need to use pliers to straighten a bent 7/0 forged hook.
In terms of the bending moments on the hook , trebles are even worse. because more tha one barb often sinks in , the hook cannot swing around to stay in line with the line pull as well as a single hook. Therefore you see lots of trebles let go with the points bent sideways.
The bending moments I'm talking about are a big reason I like the live bait hooks for eeling. The shank has minimal length. I would estimate that you could generate 3 to 5 times more bending moment on a long shank hook than you can on a short shanked live bait hook.
I guess theres a lot more to it but in my opinion , the bending moments present are why a hook, that with a straight on pull could support twenty times the breaking load of the line , often bends out without the line breaking.

Nice stuff ,#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^& and Saltheart, you two should get together and write a book about the fineer points of eeling for stripers. Very informative reading, I think I learned a couple of things there,thank you guys.

Bruce