I think she would be better off working for comedy central.

Her husband is USW? He must cry himself to sleep every night.

He must cry himself to sleep every night.

No that's Obama and his followers crying themselves to sleep tonight...:hihi: What a Speech!! What a great speech lineup tonight - Romney, Giuliani & Palin - Homeruns tonight!

In all seriousness. She gave a great speech.

Tell me again.
How many times as senator did Obama vote Present !!!

how many times has Palin been to Washington DC?

How many times did she repeat for the Depends crowd that she was from a small town?

WOW! Didnt know what to expect from her....but she blew me away! Great speach

Tell me again.
How many times as senator did Obama vote Present !!!
Curious if you know what that even means?

She certainly delivered as expected, it was a job well done, although not exactly in a hostile environment.

Her life story was endearing, but also really reinforced her podunk image that detractors wish to emphasise.

She presented a very skewed version of the truth here as well. She did raise taxes, she was initially for the bridge to nowhere etc...

From what I've read her taking on big oil and corruption is real and this was, to me at least, the most compelling part of her speech.

The policy portion of the speech will turn off a lot of people. It was clearly not in her voice and she was talking about things she knows little about. They were trying to take her around the world like she's up on foreign issues when she's rarely left town.

To me she didn't have the credibility to deliver such sarcastic and mean spirited attacks. It looked instead of a fresh person newly ordained into the Republican negative campaign machine that everyone was sick of under Bush/Rove.

I also noticed she steered clear of the social conservative hot buttons that will turn moderate voters off...

The Dems certainly have to worry if she's going to be a new voice that people will work to pay attention to. But on the other hand, she may have been received so well last night that McCain won't be able to equal her performance. This could throw his campaign out of balance rather than give it a boost.

But the whining about the media isn't going to play outside of that hall. She's certainly invited herself some blistering coverage over the next two months if skeletons jump from the closet or her mouth betrays her.

-spence

She had to spend half the speach telling us who she was. There was no other candidate that was more well know that had the same attributes Mcsame was looking for.

The security was terrible there. I saw an African American actually on the floor. I'm suprised he was able to get by security.

She had to spend half the speach telling us who she was.

So she's a pitbull mom and a hockey fish that is dumb as a stump and swipes at shiny things?

I like how she "fought for Alaskans to get their piece of the oil profits," as if that weren't state law since before she was governor and something that Chavez (who she took a dig at) already did before she was even a mayor.

I really thought she was fantastic. Upon conclusion, I immediately flipped to Obama's media team at CNN and MSNBC to see reactions. Wolf Blitzer was yelling 'a star is born' and Olberman and Matthews looked like they had their lunch money stolen. Matthews was disheveled and at a loss for words muttering 'great speech.'

You guys are hilarious. Spence, she was mean spiritied? Give me a break.
you know what I truly liked and my wife who watched it agreed, it was nice to hear a ploitical speach that was not a "woe is me, the sky is falling" The lady has a child with down syndrome, a son goign to Iraq and a 17yr old pregnant. Did she feel sorry for herself? Did she ask for help and support. No way, it was a bring it on speech and I got the sense she can handle it.
Best line ever - some leaders use change to further their careers, some use their careers to further change. Im sure she dindt write it, but that us f'in brillant.

I'm from a small town.
I'm from a small town.
I'm from a small town.
Downs baby.
Pregnant daughter.
I'm kinda like a dog everyone is afraid of.
Stab at left
Stab at left
Stab at left

entire speech summarized.

Didn't she say that if someone has a special needs child, she is going to be an advocate for them? Whats been the repub. stand previoulsy? I thought it always was "I got mine, I could care less about anyone less fortunate than myself"

No If i remember correctly it was the republicans who brought forth the equal right and cival rights movement,not the dems.such as Sen. Bird

Didn't she say that if someone has a special needs child, she is going to be an advocate for them? Whats been the repub. stand previoulsy? I thought it always was "I got mine, I could care less about anyone less fortunate than myself"

Thats cuz your lib-washed and dont do any research on your own.

No If i remember correctly it was the republicans who brought forth the equal right and cival rights movement,not the dems.such as Sen. Bird

Thank you! I was going to post something similar. The dems have claimed ownership of the civil rights movement.

how many times has Palin been to Washington DC?

Exactly Nebe! And isnt that what Obama has been preaching.....same old Washington?

Can't say that about her.

you and likwed are bumbling just like the media, looks like the repub plan worked!

No If i remember correctly it was the republicans who brought forth the equal right and cival rights movement,not the dems.such as Sen. Bird


So your saying the repubs have always supported increasing funds for special needs people?

you and likwed are bumbling just like the media, looks like the repub plan worked!

If their plan was to say a whole lot of nothing and then attack the left, then I guess it worked!

They sure did a convincing job bs'ing that big business and small town values are the same thing.

Exactly Nebe! And isnt that what Obama has been preaching.....same old Washington?

Can't say that about her.

you and likwed are bumbling just like the media, looks like the repub plan worked!


Jim, I guess you are really happy with the GOP at the moment.

It was a good speech, not too over top, as expected. McCain has his attack dog and I don't think Obama or Biden will turn into Mike Vick.

Danica Patrick of the political world.

Nobody's lunch meat. :doh: :D

...what I loved most about the speech was all that talk of laying pipe

But the whining about the media isn't going to play outside of that hall. She's certainly invited herself some blistering coverage over the next two months if skeletons jump from the closet or her mouth betrays her.

-spence

Agreed, Spence you might like this:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=184086&title=sarah-palin-gender-card

Howard

...what I loved most about the speech was all that talk of laying pipe

Ok, I feel better for not being the only one who laughed at this.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/POLITICS/09/03/rnc.day/t1wide.palin.thur.cnn.jpg

lol @ cnn

Jim, I guess you are really happy with the GOP at the moment.

actually I am. I was not planning to vote for McCain, I was going to write my name in or something.

As all the experts were saying last night, she may appeal to the Independents. I guess I am one of them. For some reason I find myself and it appears so does much of the country, comparing Palin to Obama, which makes no sense. She won me over as a get it done, no BS type person. All of the liberal attacks (nebe, likwid) are so one sided,.....care to review Biden's record? Plaguerism, racial comments??? FACTS, I think Palin is the type of future I'd like to see in American. Obama's attitude - emabarrased americans only speak one language, the guns and religion etc, I cant relate to that.

As a chief instigator out here, I am going to resign from the political forums. I've tried to have some serious debate but truthfully, I cant see anyone getting past party BS. I was accussed years ago of being bush-wacked. Man you guys on the left should see how you come across. Talk about brain washed. I'll let you guys get back to our soup kitchens, unemployment lines and foreclosed homes. I heard at the DNC how terrible things in America are.

See ya and good luck! :kewl:

I'll let you guys get back to our soup kitchens, unemployment lines and foreclosed homes.

Wait, we're the 'liberal elite' though. We drive like, expensive new cars and stuff (except for nebe, he's some hippy tree hugger).

How how how how how
does she appeal to independents??!??! That is the direction you want us to head? Huge families, strong evangelical influence? Extremly socially conservative?
Leave the forum, but answer that, please.

Absolutely loses me.
Same with the women all over talk radio who 'love her because she is a women' forget party lines, forget race, forget gender. think issues. She gave a great speech, sounded believable, but Spence among all his gibberish, posted an observation I made last night as well. She avoided all these social issues that should turning off a lot of independent/moderate voters. I think she will hold her own in a debate, but I do want to see her grilled on that by Biden.

She is
Anti-abortion completely, no exceptions
Creationist
Mixed environmental record.
I understand she is the VP, and we all talk like McCain is going to drop dead year 1, but still, how is she winning over moderates and independents!

H
Mixed environmental record.

Mixed? MIXED?!
Dude, she might as well come out and say "eff fisherman and eff polar bears."

Mixed? MIXED?!
Dude, she might as well come out and say "eff fisherman and eff polar bears."
That's what I hear too. Rape, pillage the environment as an interim step to weaning us off of black gold

Mixed? MIXED?!
Dude, she might as well come out and say "eff fisherman and eff polar bears."

Likwid.
I was trying NOT to scare Jim away.
Mixed is generous. I know she pushed against the Polar bears, and the Mine issue you raised,
But I'll stick with it for now, at least until I know more,.

I just want to know how she appeals to independents. It is a pretty powerful statement that she is the direction you want America going!!!

She has no record to stand on. It's a sham

fliiiiiiiiiip

http://images.dailykos.com/images/user/30549/liar.jpg

flop?

I just want to know how she appeals to independents. It is a pretty powerful statement that she is the direction you want America going!!!


I agree. All I took out of last night was a sharp veer to the right,
(so much for the disgruntled Clinton vote), little discussion of the issues, juvenile commentary and drill drill drill.


Howard

Mixed? MIXED?!
Dude, she might as well come out and say "eff fisherman and eff polar bears."

What do we need polar bears for, anyways?

I wasn't too enthralled with the choice of Palin going into the RNC, but she did a great job with her speech. But, she's a politician. And like McCain, Obama and Biden, she's trying to appeal to a broad base with her speeches.

Most of you guys in here are intelligent enough to know what these candidates stand for and which ways they lean on issues, but most of the general public is competely ignorant on the issues.

Some people will vote for Obama because he's a minority candidate or because he's a good looking, polished speaker.

Others will vote for McCain because he's a war hero who served his country and was a P.O.W.

Palin is going to garner votes for McCain because she is a woman and they won't have a clue as to where she stands on important issues.

It's too bad that more voters don't inform themselves and get to know a little about the candidates that are running.

Mixed? MIXED?!
Dude, she might as well come out and say "eff fisherman and eff polar bears."

OK.,
I was wrong, mixed was way to generous

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080904/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_palin_environment

OK -
you asked Bryan and I like you. This will get preachy, but its my swan song.
Everyone needs to make a list of things that are important to them. Many of the social issues are very low on my list. I dont feel strongly either way on abortion.
I dont care too much about the religious crap unless as you state, it becomes THE purpose of policy.
I value MOST of all, the american spirit. The drive to succeed, courage in the face of adversity, no BS, no focus on race, but on people.
She is a mother, a VERY hard job, she worked in tough jobs. Unlike Obama and Biden, she worked for a living, she could fail, lose her home, not provide food for her family. Obama's work has been about obtaining grants and public funding and like Biden, a career politician. I dont like the career politician thing. So thats point 1.
Point 2 - I really, really like woman leaders. The best people I have ever worked for were strong woman, she reminds me a lot of them.
Point 3 - International - I can see her (much like Obamans supporters see him) on the Internatinal stage and delivering a SOLID representation of America. She is not George Bush.
Point 4 - Balls, there is no doubt to me she has them.
Point 5 - again, my unfair comparison between her and Obama , If I was hiring someone, I lead a project management team, who would I hire if I interview Palin and Obama? Who to me is someone I can talk to and they would listen? Obama reminds me of the bad bosses I had, where the have the answer before you ask the questions and think they know more than you. I dont get that from her.
Point 6 - I think her inexperience is a good thing (much like Obamas supporters) and I think can lead. She has the poise and delivery of a leader.

For the record, I am far from right wing - I am for gay marriage, for the legalization of weed, for the separation of church and state.

So, as an independant, that why she appeals to me. Leadership presence, ballsy woman, family woman, non-career politician.

Have fun tearing me apart.

What do we need polar bears for, anyways?

Yeah really, and screw the livelyhood of over 12,000 and $300mil a year.

OK -
you asked Bryan and I like you. This will get preachy, but its my swan song.
Everyone needs to make a list of things that are important to them. Many of the social issues are very low on my list. I dont feel strongly either way on abortion.
I dont care too much about the religious crap unless as you state, it becomes THE purpose of policy.
I value MOST of all, the american spirit. The drive to succeed, courage in the face of adversity, no BS, no focus on race, but on people.
She is a mother, a VERY hard job, she worked in tough jobs. Unlike Obama and Biden, she worked for a living, she could fail, lose her home, not provide food for her family. Obama's work has been about obtaining grants and public funding and like Biden, a career politician. I dont like the career politician thing. So thats point 1.
Point 2 - I really, really like woman leaders. The best people I have ever worked for were strong woman, she reminds me a lot of them.
Point 3 - International - I can see her (much like Obamans supporters see him) on the Internatinal stage and delivering a SOLID representation of America. She is not George Bush.
Point 4 - Balls, there is no doubt to me she has them.
Point 5 - again, my unfair comparison between her and Obama , If I was hiring someone, I lead a project management team, who would I hire if I interview Palin and Obama? Who to me is someone I can talk to and they would listen? Obama reminds me of the bad bosses I had, where the have the answer before you ask the questions and think they know more than you. I dont get that from her.
Point 6 - I think her inexperience is a good thing (much like Obamas supporters) and I think can lead. She has the poise and delivery of a leader.

For the record, I am far from right wing - I am for gay marriage, for the legalization of weed, for the separation of church and state.

So, as an independant, that why she appeals to me. Leadership presence, ballsy woman, family woman, non-career politician.

Have fun tearing me apart.


BTW - interesting on the environemnt side where most of you are for killing the seals, the plovers and the dogfish

Jim my biggest issue right now is this- the GOP has this trait that kind of bugs me.. they reach out at election time to the 'small town' voter.. they will say 'were lookin out for you.. the little guy'. 'We're going to do what ever we can to help YOU succeed by ecouraging this, that, and whatever'.. When in fract the GOP at least in the past 8 years has proven that it really favors big business. Lets say the 'small town' that they say they care so much about has an oil refinery or some sort of industry that the town depends on.. when the crap hits the fan, who do you think the GOP is looking out for?? I dont judge the economy's well being by looking at the DOW.. I look at the strength of the middle class.. Who do you think is going to do their best with the middle class as their focus? Palin is a smoke screen.. However I will admit I am biased because I have seen Bush lie, cheat, and basicly screw the american people in the name of corperate profits.. McCain is not bush and is more moderate.. so I will say that I dont think that things could possibly be worse if he is elected..

Jim,
Not going to tear you apart. I just wanted clarification. It seems, at least intuitively to me, that she would turn off moderates.
You have strong convictions. So do I. I respect that, and try to do my best to post here and be non-combative. To me, her right-wing social and environmental issues trump all of the qualities you mention, and she is a lot of those things. If Hillary had half her balls and charisma, it would have been no contest this year.

I just think, regardless of her abilities as a leader, her poise, her representation of America, her issues to me, make her very unpalatable, even as a VP.

I'm not for killing seals and dogfish and others without merit, reason or rage. I am for sound environmentalism, and if something is way out of wack, probably due to us, we should work to reduce or remove out negative influence.

BTW - interesting on the environemnt side where most of you are for killing the seals, the plovers and the dogfish

It only matters when it affects them.

bry - dont confuse moderate with independant
I think all child rapists should be disemboweled in a public forum, no kidding. I think we should be more isolationist, screw the UN, Im not moderate.

Neb on the small town issue. Want to see a crap hole? Visit Derbt CT. I grew up there. At one time, there was a steel industry, machinery, some pretty big employers. In the past 20-30 yrs, it dried up. the town is like a graveyard of empty buildings and post 1950 tentaments and cape cods. Its the most depressign thing for me to drive through there. I see small towns and big business linked. If you drive up taxes and penalties, it will drive business out. Big business drives jobs.

Ok, enough flip flopping, Im outta hear, no hard feelings, just not getting the kind of intellectual stimulation I need from the I hate bush crowd, you got to do better, bush is soon to be gone.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jon-soltz/is-the-mccain-palin-campa_b_123643.html

She supports our troops!

By violating opsec.
Awesome.

the GOP has this trait that kind of bugs me.. they reach out at election time to the 'small town' voter.. they will say 'were lookin out for you.. the little guy'. 'We're going to do what ever we can to help YOU succeed by ecouraging this, that, and whatever'..
Lets say the 'small town' that they say they care so much about has an oil refinery or some sort of industry that the town depends on.. when the crap hits the fan, who do you think the GOP is looking out for?? ..

Nebe, it's not only The GOP that reaches out at election time - it's all parties. Simple explanation is that everyone is trying to get votes so they can get elected and then forget about everything the promised or said they were going to do.

Both major parties are much more similar than you think. It's like professional wrestling where there are "bad guys" and "good guys". Politicians do what they can so that they can get elected. They fight with and complain about the other guy, then behind the scenes they play golf or go sailing. As someone who has worked in politics at the state level, I've seen this happen often.

I do believe that there are a lot of politicians who get into it for the right reasons, and I have met and worked with some of them. But, there are a lot of politicians (both parties) who get into it because they don't have the desire or the capabilities to hold down a "real" job.

In about 10 months, lets look at the promises made during the campaign by whoever gets elected and see what has actually come to fruition. It won't make a difference if it's Obama or McCain.

[QUOTE=RIJIMMY;617345]bry - dont confuse moderate with independant


Fair enough, I don't confuse, but probably shouldn't lump. Moderate repubs usually fall closer to the middle than they do to the far right, in my experience..

Killing dogfish.... I know of no better way to inexpensively feed the in-laws than to provide them copious amounts of battered dogfish nuggets and lemon slices.

http://tbn4-beta.google.com/images?q=tbn:qISHpF6Ri-L7UM:http://www.hypnosis4uk.com/images/zebrahypnotic.jpg

unity

hope

hopefulness for unity

the unity of hopefulness

listen to my voice....

McCain / Palin has my vote, I'm done with political coverage, I've made up my mind.

Jim my biggest issue right now is this- the GOP has this trait that kind of bugs me.. they reach out at election time to the 'small town' voter.. they will say 'were lookin out for you.. the little guy'. 'We're going to do what ever we can to help YOU succeed by ecouraging this, that, and whatever'.. When in fract the GOP at least in the past 8 years has proven that it really favors big business. Lets say the 'small town' that they say they care so much about has an oil refinery or some sort of industry that the town depends on.. when the crap hits the fan, who do you think the GOP is looking out for?? I dont judge the economy's well being by looking at the DOW.. I look at the strength of the middle class.. Who do you think is going to do their best with the middle class as their focus? Palin is a smoke screen.. However I will admit I am biased because I have seen Bush lie, cheat, and basicly screw the american people in the name of corperate profits.. McCain is not bush and is more moderate.. so I will say that I dont think that things could possibly be worse if he is elected..

However, do you really think being a moderate liar, cheater and screwer is really going to help us non-big business folks?

However, do you really think being a moderate liar, cheater and screwer is really going to help us non-big business folks?

The way most are looking at it is it can't be any worse?

I think it is kind of early to weigh in on her abilities after hearing her give one speech the majority of which she did not write. I am going to keep an open mind about her until the debates and we will see how good she does in a less scripted setting. Although I am for Obama, previously I would not have shed too many tears if McCain was elected. I am kind of concerned that McCain, who says he is a man of principle, backs down from his choices for running mate because of pressure from the far right and then appoints someone that he has only spoke to for an hour.
Maybe in his mind he does not contemplate his own passing but to make a snap decision about the possible future of the country has me quite concerned.

I listened to her speech but couldn't keep from wondering what it would be like to get head from a vice-presidential candidate........?

Is that fall under the impure thoughts category?

Hmmm, a vp hummer, what would that be like?

Does that make me a bad person?

Other than that all I got from it was "Jesus is lord, from my cold dead fingers, I'm a mom, I was mayor of a hick town and governor of a state (that doesn't have as many year round residents as New York City )and the feeling that her favorite book is the latest Smith & Wesson catalog.

She is cute but she doesn't seem all that genuine to me, she was a reporter ( sports I am told) but I never trusted reporters news, sports or otherwise.

Leave it to those wacky republicans to mix things up in a campaign. The most fun will be Biden vs. Palin debates ( is there more than one televised vp candidate debate?)

I am so glad I am an un-enrolled voter this year.:uhuh:

However, do you really think being a moderate liar, cheater and screwer is really going to help us non-big business folks?


depends on who he decides whome to lie cheat and screw :sspam:

I listened to her speech but couldn't keep from wondering what it would be like to get head from a vice-presidential candidate........?

Is that fall under the impure thoughts category?

Hmmm, a vp hummer, what would that be like?



Nebe and Likwid were wondering the same thing when they watched Biden's address. :musc:

Curious if you know what that even means?


-spence

That's pretty friggin cheap, Spence. Not everyone googles info and spends time researching every aspect of the debate so they can look smarter then everyone else. Most of us are just speaking from the heart and learn from each other as we go. I know what "Present" means and it means he doesn't have the balls to vote an actual yes on the subject at hand because he may some day have to explain that vote.

-steve

I listened to her speech but couldn't keep from wondering what it would be like to get head from a vice-presidential candidate........?

Is that fall under the impure thoughts category?

Hmmm, a vp hummer, what would that be like?

Does that make me a bad person?

:uhuh:

:err::err:
Isn't Nebe your vice President? :err::err:

:laugha::humpty::wave::eek5:

Come on Steve, you know the country will be a lot better off with an experienced President rather than one with charisma and no real way to accomplish all of his promises, face it, he just wants to be President just because it is his dream.

That's pretty friggin cheap, Spence. Not everyone googles info and spends time researching every aspect of the debate so they can look smarter then everyone else. Most of us are just speaking from the heart and learn from each other as we go. I know what "Present" means and it means he doesn't have the balls to vote an actual yes on the subject at hand because he may some day have to explain that vote.

-steve
Not cheap at all, if someone is going to parrot a talking point I'd at least expect them to understand the context.

And no, "present" doesn't mean a lack of balls...it may in fact be the right choice if you aren't sure about the nature of the bill you're voting for. It's not like these people get to read everything they vote on, and often times things change at the last minute.

-spence

While the republicans may favor big business, it was the dems (Clintons in particular) who forced NAFTA down our throat, that hasn't done a whole lot of good for the little guy and helped big business get manufacturing cheaper in other countries...


I like her, and her guns. She is my kind of girl.

She is a mother, a VERY hard job, she worked in tough jobs. Unlike Obama and Biden, she worked for a living, she could fail, lose her home, not provide food for her family.
Didn't Biden loose his wife and daughter at a very young age? Hasn't he commuted home via train every day from Washington to raise his kids?

Did you know Biden is one of the poorest Senators currently holding a seat?

And you think his is a cake job? That's insulting to the Senator and family values as a whole.

Point 3 - International - I can see her (much like Obamans supporters see him) on the Internatinal stage and delivering a SOLID representation of America. She is not George Bush.
I see a Bush style "America's the best and FU if you think different" approach to foreign relations that hasn't worked the last 8 years.

This is one thing I think the Dems understand much better than the GOP.

As Fareed Zakaria writes in his new book (from memory here)... America has succeeded in globalizing the world, but has yet to globalize itsself.

Or something like that.

The point being, that in the last decade we've seen an incredible rise among other nations. We are still the global leader, but there are so many other strong nations we can't lead with a stick (alone) any longer. This goes straight up the neocon's ass, but it's reality, and Iraq is proof in the putting. China is more proof and Georgia even more.

The world has changed (read as "not changing") and our approach must change for the USA to have the necessary influence. We're not going to become irrevelant overnight, but it's already starting to happen.

I look at the Republican platform and I see more of the same. Complete denial that the way forward is the way of the past.

-spence

I think he voted present like 90 percent of the time. Is he that stupid or does he just want to have no position on record. He must have been to busy running for President to read the bills. I wonder how many "presents" McCain has.

While the republicans may favor big business, it was the dems (Clintons in particular) who forced NAFTA down our throat, that hasn't done a whole lot of good for the little guy and helped big business get manufacturing cheaper in other countries...
Blame Clinton?

Wasn't NAFTA initiated under George Bush 41?

-spence

I wonder how many "presents" McCain has.
The point is moot. The context of voting present was as an IL House member, not as a US Senator. The procedures are different.

Most US Congress people vote so infrequently it makes one wonder :huh:

-spence

But the whining about the media isn't going to play outside of that hall. -spence


:bs:

MSNBC and it's like have become the brunt of ridicule all over America. Decent people are disgusted by their blatant bias and indecent attacks on her. But the lunatic fringe can't see it through the glaze covering their retinas.

:bs:

MSNBC and it's like have become the brunt of ridicule all over America. Decent people are disgusted by their blatant bias and indecent attacks on her. But the lunatic fringe can't see it through the glaze covering their retinas.
Got reasonable source for your "decent people" or "indecent attacks"?

I've watched much of their coverage (along with CNN and FOX) and have found them to be very complimentary of the potential VP.

And are you sugesting that I'm part of the lunatic fringe? If so perhaps it's your eyes that are glazed.

-spence

Looks like some more spin on Palin's part...courtesty of MSNBC for the snipah :bshake:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26550336/

-spence

And the spin keeps coming...I'd note that factcheck.org is very neutral and the same site contains critique of the DNC remarks.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/gop_convention_spin_part_ii.html

-spence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBXeVvoQA9M


Say what you want about Obama but he handles himself with class.


Howard

just for you bil.. a pic of her... and her "guns"

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj74/Surfcaster57/palinpool.jpg

Fake photo.

-spence

Didn't Biden loose his wife and daughter at a very young age? Hasn't he commuted home via train every day from Washington to raise his kids?

Did you know Biden is one of the poorest Senators currently holding a seat?

And you think his is a cake job? That's insulting to the Senator and family values as a whole.

-spence

Spence, I'm suprised you would actually use the word "poor" to describe Biden. I bet lot's of minimum wage earners trying to support families wouldn't mind making close to $200K a year. Oh, and he has most of his travel paid for, including his commute, among the other freebies and perks for being a Senator.

And while being a Senator is no "cake job", it is a little easier when you miss 30% of the votes. And think about the time he saves by not having to come up with speeches on his own. He just takes what others have written and take scredit for it. That gives him plenty of time to rush home on the train to spend time with his adult children and 5 grandchildren.

Spence, I'm suprised you would actually use the word "poor" to describe Biden. I bet lot's of minimum wage earners trying to support families wouldn't mind making close to $200K a year. Oh, and he has most of his travel paid for, including his commute, among the other freebies and perks for being a Senator.

And while being a Senator is no "cake job", it is a little easier when you miss 30% of the votes. And think about the time he saves by not having to come up with speeches on his own. He just takes what others have written and take scredit for it. That gives him plenty of time to rush home on the train to spend time with his adult children and 5 grandchildren.
Big difference between "poor" and "poorest". The point being that he's made out to be the "elite" when in fact compared to his peers he's quite modest in means and has never been super rich. 200K might seem like a lot to you and me, but it's not a ton of money for a sales professional, and we're talking about someone trusted with helping to lead the Legislative branch of our government of 300 million people.

And the 30% figure is a red herring. By this measure alone John McCain stands at 64% votes missed! When you look at "votes cast" Joe Biden is higher than many Senators who have missed less than 10%.

-spence

Bill Clinton made it's legislative passage a priority in 1993

Bill Clinton was president when NAFTA was passed by the legislature.

The plan was drafted by BUsh, and never altered by Clinton before being passed.


North American Free Trade Agreement
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"NAFTA" redirects here. For other uses of the acronym, see Nafta (disambiguation).
The North American Free Trade Agreement
Tratado de Libre Comercio de América del Norte
Accord de libre-échange nord-américain


Secretariats Mexico City, Ottawa and Washington, D.C.
Official languages English, French and Spanish
Membership Canada
Mexico
United States
Establishment
- Formation 1 January 1994
Area
- Total 21,783,850 km² (1st)
8,410,792 sq mi
- Water (%) 7.4
Population
- 2008 estimate 445,335,091 (3rd)
- Density 20.4/km² (195th)
52.9/sq mi
GDP (PPP) 2007 (IMF) estimate
- Total $15,857 billion (1st)
- Per capita $35,491 (14th)
GDP (nominal) 2007 (IMF) estimate
- Total $15,723 billion (2nd)
- Per capita $35,564 (18th)
Website
http://www.nafta-sec-alena.org
The North American Free Trade Agreement (Spanish: Tratado de Libre Comercio de América del Norte [TLCAN], French: Accord de libre-échange nord-américain [ALENA]) is a trilateral trade bloc in North America created by the governments of the United States, Canada, and Mexico. The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) has two supplements, the North American Agreement on Environmental Cooperation (NAAEC) and The North American Agreement on Labor Cooperation (NAALC). The agreements came into effect on January 1, 1994. In terms of combined purchasing power parity GDP of its members, as of 2007 the trade bloc is the largest in the world and second largest by nominal GDP comparison.
Contents [hide]
1 North American Agreement on Environmental Cooperation
2 North American Agreement on Labor Cooperation
3 Further integration
4 History of the implementation
5 Effects
5.1 Trade
5.2 Industry
5.3 Environment
5.4 Agriculture
5.5 Mobility of persons
6 Criticism and controversies
6.1 Canadian disputes
6.1.1 Canadian government challenged on change in Income trust taxation
6.2 U.S. deindustrialization
6.3 Impact on Mexican farmers
6.4 Chapter 11
6.5 Chapter 19
6.6 Chapter 20
6.7 Chapter 14
7 Public opinion
8 Travel and migration
8.1 United States and Canada
8.2 The United States and Mexico
9 See also
10 References
11 External links
[edit]North American Agreement on Environmental Cooperation
The North American Agreement on Environmental Cooperation (NAAEC) was a response to environmentalists' concerns that the United States would lower its standards if the three countries did not achieve consistent environmental regulation. The NAAEC only obligates parties to enforce their own environmental laws. The NAAEC, in an endeavour to be more than a set of environmental regulations, established the North American Commission for Environmental Cooperation, a mechanism for addressing trade and environmental issues, the North American Development Bank (NADBank) for assisting and financing investments in pollution reduction, and the Border Environmental Cooperation Commission (BECC). The NADBank and the BECC have provided economic benefits to Mexico by financing 36 projects, mostly in the water sector.[1]
[edit]North American Agreement on Labor Cooperation
The North American Agreement on Labor Cooperation (NAALC) supplements NAFTA and endeavors to create a foundation for cooperation among the three countries for the resolution of labor problems, as well as to promote greater cooperation among trade unions and social organizations in order to fight for improved labor conditions.
[edit]Further integration

While different groups advocate for a further integration into a North American Community, sensitive issues have hindered that process. The three countries have pursued different trade policies with non-members (for example, Mexico has signed FTAs with more than 40 countries in 12 agreements), making the possibility of creating a customs union difficult to accomplish. Former President Vicente Fox of Mexico had promoted the idea of enhancing NAFTA (into what he labeled "NAFTA-Plus", or possibly a North American Community), but after the September 11, 2001 attacks, priorities in the United States changed. The Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America was signed, instead, as a separate and unrelated agreement.
Given the scope of the agreement, which includes very sensitive issues in trade talks such as agriculture liberalization and environment regulation, few countries have shown interest in joining NAFTA. Instead, some countries, like Chile, preferred to negotiate three separate bilateral agreements with the three current NAFTA members, with different restrictions to liberalization of their industries and the regulation of environment protection. Jamaica and Trinidad and Tobago also showed a similar interest.[2][3][4]
In an interview with Larry King on October 8, 2007, Fox described any plans for a North American single currency as a "long term, very long term" proposal. He also spoke of he and U.S. President George W. Bush's support for the Free Trade Area of the Americas as a "first step" toward "a new vision" for the Americas, "like we are trying to do with NAFTA", but then said that Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez had decided to "destroy the idea".[5]
[edit]History of the implementation



President Bill Clinton signing NAFTA into law, November 1993
NAFTA was initially pursued by politicians in the United States and Canada supportive of free trade, led by Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, U.S. President George H. W. Bush, and the Mexican President Carlos Salinas de Gortari. The three countries signed NAFTA in December 1992, subject to ratification by the legislatures of the three countries. There was considerable opposition in all three countries. In the United States, NAFTA was able to secure passage after Bill Clinton made its passage a major legislative priority in 1993. Since the agreement had been signed by Bush under his fast-track prerogative, Clinton did not alter the original agreement, but complemented it with the aforementioned NAAEC and NAALC. After intense political debate and the negotiation of these side agreements, the U.S. House of Representatives passed NAFTA on November 17, 1993, by 234-200 vote (132 Republicans and 102 Democrats voting in favor; 43 Republicans, 156 Democrats, and 1 independent against),[6] and the U.S. Senate passed it on the last day of its 1993 session, November 20, 1993, by 61-38 vote (34 Republicans and 27 Democrats voting in favor; 10 Republicans and 28 Democrats against, with 1 Democrat opponent not voting -- Sen. Byron Dorgan (D-ND), an ardent foe of NAFTA, missed the vote because of an illness in his family).[7]
[edit]Effects

Sounds like bi-partisan legislation to me. While I wouldn't say I'm a NAFTA supporter I have met with business leaders who attribute NAFTA for helping them be successful in the USA.

-spence

NAFTA may help business leaders to become successful (ie; higher profit margins = more money in their pockets), but is causing me and many of my co-workers to loose their jobs. Our company is moving much of the production to Mexico. All these manufacturing jobs that are lost to other countries are jobs that we will NEVER get back in this country.
F%ck NAFTA and F%ck anyone who supports it. Simply put, I'm out of a job soon because of it.

You might want to blame the "Dems" but the majority of "For" votes on NAFTA were republican and the majority of those "against" were democrat....says it right in the article above.

and that is the same in the senate as well as the House of reps.

Greed doesn't care about party lines

Would globalization not have happened without NAFTA or was it an unstoppable market force? I wish it did not happen and we retained those jobs, but that's an unreality.
I worked at a place where outsourcing and technology was taking jobs away from people doing the work I did. The writing was on the wall (for years)that it was only a matter of time.
Some people took classes, started side businesses, or learned new skills so they had options, but I was surprised that most of my co-workers passively waited for the pink slip.

Spence,

On MSNBC - a day or so ago, the headline read. Palin supports Nazi Sympathizer.
Its the job of the Press to INVESTIGATE, not just report. So, that Nazi synpathizer, its Pat Buchanan. Do you know who employs Pat Buchanan? MSNBC @!@!@@!!!! So why didnt they note that? MSNBC Hires Nazi sympathizers???? Its all about getting jabs in on headlines without any backing. Its nuts.

Everyone says teh Wright controversy is over, go to the website of the Trinity Church Obama was a member of for 20 years, look at their bookstore -
http://www.tucc.org/store/index.cfm
whats their featured item - A Black Liberation of Thelogy

What to know a few things about Black Liberation Theology?
Here are a few quotes -
All white men are responsible for white oppression. It is much too easy to say, "Racism is not my fault," or "I am not responsible for the country's inhumanity to the black man..
The demonic forces of racism are real for the black man. Theologically, Malcolm X was not far wrong when he called the white man "the devil."

So Obama attends a BLACK church (read their mission, its black focused) their bookstore sells and FEATURES books that spew hatred and divisive racism. FACts boys, the link is right there! Im not Karl Rove, Im not Rush Limbaugh. This his his church. Can you EVEN imagine if McCain or Palin's church believed this garbage or preached this about white peope????
You all are freakin becasue she mentions Our souldiers are doing God's task. And yet you have no issue with Obamas faith? No concerns?????????

you could vote for a president of the united states that has even the slightest influence by this?
The Goals Of Black Liberal Theology — Dr. Robert A. Morley, an internationally recognized scholar in the fields of theology and apologetics.

“l.The goals of BT are to turn religion into sociology, Christianity into a political agenda, Jesus into a black Marxist rebel, and the gospel into violent revolution. They are more interested in politics than preaching the gospel.

“III. The Methodology of Black Liberal Theology

“The main method employed by BT is to manipulate embittered young blacks by turning their feelings of inferiority, alienation, jealousy, hopelessness and self-hate, into racist rage against whites, Orientals and affluent blacks who are conveniently blamed for their lack of personal initiative to better their lot in life.

“IV. The Main Philosophic Error of Black Liberal Theology

“BT is based upon the philosophic error of relativism in which ‘Jesus’ is viewed as only a religious symbol which can be interpreted anyway they want. Thus it does not matter who and what the historical Jesus really was. BT invented a black Marxist Jesus to lead the way to violent revolution because such a ‘Jesus’ will serve their purpose. BT is condemned in II Cor. 11:4 and Gal. 1:8-9.

Doesnt this echo Wrights comments? The facts are there Obama supporters, there is his church, the link to Liberation Theology. Has anyone of the press asked Obama if he believes in BLT? You cannot deny its influence on his church. And you guys think Palin is a religious wacko, but then again, the press isnt telling you otherwise,,,,,

Spence,

On MSNBC - a day or so ago, the headline read. Palin supports Nazi Sympathizer.
Its the job of the Press to INVESTIGATE, not just report. So, that Nazi synpathizer, its Pat Buchanan. Do you know who employs Pat Buchanan? MSNBC @!@!@@!!!! So why didnt they note that? MSNBC Hires Nazi sympathizers???? Its all about getting jabs in on headlines without any backing. Its nuts.
I didn't see the headline so I don't know the real context.

But looking at the actual article on MSNBC.com it's clearly not favorable of Obama...

Still, the Miami Herald this week quoted an e-mail from Obama Florida spokesman Mark Bubriski that stated: "Palin was a supporter of Pat Buchanan, a right-winger or as many Jews call him: a Nazi sympathizer."

Now before anyone goes off, there's a pretty vocal community that belives Pat Buchanan is a big anti-semite.

And regarding your second post, it's clear Obama joined that church as he was doing community work and it was the center of the community he was trying to help. Just because he attended for many years, doesn't mean he's a believer in black liberation theology. I've never read anything that would indicate this is the case either.

-spence

yet, you posted a thread Palin - be Afraid becasue she said to pray for our soliders and that they are doing God's task?
Who has more expoure to religious wack-jobs - Obama or Palin? I am way more afraid of OBamas church. Check the facts on their website! Facts are not on the Huffington Post - thats a lib site. Go to the source.

more FACTS -
dont go on about Hannity, look at Wrights response. he was THE PASTOR AT OBAMAS CHURCH, MARRIED HIM, BAPTISED HIS KIDS and you're worred about Palin????

WRIGHT: The black value system, which was developed by the congregation, by laypersons of the congregation, 26 years ago, very similar to the gospel (INAUDIBLE) developed by laypersons in Nicaragua during the whole liberation theology movement, 26, 28, 30 years ago, yes.

HANNITY: All right, but we're not dealing with — this is on the Web site today. Let me just inform our audience, and I want you to respond, if you can.

It says, "Commitment to God." By the way, I'm with you, and I hope you'll pray for me, Reverend. Commitment to the black community, commitment to the black family, adherence to the black work ethic. It goes on, pledge, you know, acquired skills available to the black community, strengthening and supporting black institutions, pledging allegiance to all black leadership who have embraced the black value system, personal commitment to the embracement of the black value system.

Now, Reverend, if every time we said black, if there was a church and those words were white, wouldn't we call that church racist?

WRIGHT: No, we would call it Christianity. We've been saying that since there was a white Christianity; we've been saying that ever since white Christians took part in the slave trade; we've been saying that ever since they had churches in slave castles.

We don't have to say the word "white." We just have to live in white America, the United States of white America. That's not the issue; you're missing the issue.

Big difference between "poor" and "poorest". The point being that he's made out to be the "elite" when in fact compared to his peers he's quite modest in means and has never been super rich. 200K might seem like a lot to you and me, but it's not a ton of money for a sales professional, and we're talking about someone trusted with helping to lead the Legislative branch of our government of 300 million people.

And the 30% figure is a red herring. By this measure alone John McCain stands at 64% votes missed! When you look at "votes cast" Joe Biden is higher than many Senators who have missed less than 10%.

-spence

Spence, I appreciate your argument, but maybe saying that Biden has "one of the lowest income levels among his peers" would have been a better choice of words. "poorest" is different than "poor", but it's a derivation af the same word and using it to decribe Biden is a little over the top. Not many people are going to feel sorry for a guy making around $200K and who has many more "freebies" and "perks" handed to him than them. Remember that he writes off a lot of things that most people can't. Oh, and don't forget the income derived from his book. I'm sure he got something for that.

And he has a lot more time off than the salepeople you mentioned. Remember, the Senate is not in session all year and he gets paid whether he is there or not. Salespeople who make the big bucks are usually on commission and work long hours with only a few weeks of vacation a year. They only get paid for the sales they make. Don't diminish how hard it is to support a family when you income is directly tied to you being successful in making sales. If they don't sell, they don't get paid.

As for the voting in the Senate, I counted him as having missed the 5th most votes, behind McCain (#1), Obama (#3) and Clinton (#4). I would think that preparing to run for President and campaigning might explain why those 3 may have missed some of their votes. And I actually looked up "votes cast" and Biden only has more than 3 other Senators with less than 10% missed. Unless you want to count Craig Thomas who died last year.

And to your earlier point about him taking the train home to Delaware each day for his family. That is admirable, but he's not the only person to make great sacrifices for his family. A lot of people have suffered through terrible personal tragedies and have had to go on living. Kudos to Biden for doing what should be expected of him, because there are other people out there who wouldn't have done what he did.

yet, you posted a thread Palin - be Afraid becasue she said to pray for our soliders and that they are doing God's task?
Who has more expoure to religious wack-jobs - Obama or Palin? I am way more afraid of OBamas church. Check the facts on their website! Facts are not on the Huffington Post - thats a lib site. Go to the source.
I'm more afraid of someone who may think they have instruction from god to kill people, than someone who believes they have instruction from god to not kill people.

-spence

Didn't Charles Manson say god told him to kill?

No...it was the Beatles.

hA!

I'm more afraid of someone who may think they have instruction from god to kill people, than someone who believes they have instruction from god to not kill people.

-spence

I guess thats a wacky interpretation of what she said. I would think the task (now) is to assist the Iraquis in securing their nation so that there can be peace and stability.

And are you sugesting that I'm part of the lunatic fringe? If so perhaps it's your eyes that are glazed.

-spence

No Spence, I think you are highly aware of the slant and bias put forth daily under the guise of "News".

I guess thats a wacky interpretation of what she said. I would think the task (now) is to assist the Iraquis in securing their nation so that there can be peace and stability.
Ok, that's just spin...

-spence

Ok, that's just spin...

-spence

Huh? The task of our military = kill people?

thats what they're doing right now?

I thought this is what we want our troops to do? Isnt this the 'task"

BAGHDAD - The U.S. military handed over security control of the Iraqi province of Anbar to local forces on Monday, although a top U.S. commander said the drawdown of Marines in the former insurgent flashpoint would be gradual.

The province was once a locus of the Sunni Arab insurgency, and the scene of some of the bloodiest battles of the Iraq war.

The handover marks a major milestone in America’s strategy of turning security over to the Iraqis so U.S. troops can eventually go home.

Spin, spin, spin, spin...

-spence

you're a pretty lousy McCain supporter.

Why dont you just come out of the closet now, expose your pink panties and join Obama?

Change you can believe in!

you're a pretty lousy McCain supporter.

Why dont you just come out of the closet now, expose your pink panties and join Obama?

Change you can believe in!
Because I don't particularly like Barak Obama. Biden I like, but Barak not so much.

-spence

Didn't Charles Manson say god told him to kill?
Charlie also said, "'The fact of the matter is, I'm Jesus Christ, whether you chose to believe that or not is up to you."
I would have found that more profound had he not tattooed a swastika on his own forehead. But, alas, madmen, they're so impetuous.

Charlie also said, "'The fact of the matter is, I'm Jesus Christ, whether you chose to believe that or not is up to you."
I would have found that more profound had he not tattooed a swastika on his own forehead. But, alas, madmen, they're so impetuous.

rumor has it it was Buchanan that did the tattoo

Yeah, he got G. Gordon Liddy to hold him down. You've read "Will," I assume, Liddy admired the Nazis a great deal. Those Nixon staffers - what a fun bunch!

Charlie also said, "'The fact of the matter is, I'm Jesus Christ, whether you chose to believe that or not is up to you."
I would have found that more profound had he not tattooed a swastika on his own forehead. But, alas, madmen, they're so impetuous.

Another, albeit lesser known quote attributed to Manson is "real men use conventional reels - spinning reels are for sissies".

Spence, I appreciate your argument, but maybe saying that Biden has "one of the lowest income levels among his peers" would have been a better choice of words. "poorest" is different than "poor", but it's a derivation af the same word and using it to decribe Biden is a little over the top.
I think most people would get the context. To say the usage is improper is bordering on pedantic isn't it?

And regarding his family. I'm not saying he's a super hero, but that the man has some fiber.

-spence

I think using "pedantic," is somewhat pedantic. I gotta go, my tee shirt machine is pre-heated now.

I think using "pedantic," is somewhat pedantic. I gotta go, my tee shirt machine is pre-heated now.

Vote Hard, Die Young!

Hey, there ya go.
I was thinking about doing "01.20.17 Obama's Last Day"

I think most people would get the context. To say the usage is improper is bordering on pedantic isn't it?

And regarding his family. I'm not saying he's a super hero, but that the man has some fiber.

-spence

Pedantic, shmedantic. $200K + is a lot of money no matter how you slice it. He's rich. He may not be Ted Kennedy rich, but he will not be standing in line at the soup kitchen when he retires. And he's a lot better off than the guy unloading freight from trucks or the woman who cleans houses for a living.

I agree about taking care of his family. Unfortunately, some people wouldn't have done what he did. That just speaks to where we've gone as a society.

I know you like him and are playing devil's advocate, but you have to at least agree that he is a lot more privleged than most people. And although he has a tough job, he works a lot less than most of us who work for a living.

I will admit that he's a sharp dresser. And his hair is beyond reproach. Could that be the real reason you like him? Maybe there is an unspoken bond there?

Hey, there ya go.
I was thinking about doing "01.20.17 Obama's Last Day"

You'd need to change that to 09.03.08, his last day was Palin's speech :cool:

Pedantic, shmedantic. $200K + is a lot of money no matter how you slice it. He's rich. He may not be Ted Kennedy rich, but he will not be standing in line at the soup kitchen when he retires. And he's a lot better off than the guy unloading freight from trucks or the woman who cleans houses for a living.

I agree about taking care of his family. Unfortunately, some people wouldn't have done what he did. That just speaks to where we've gone as a society.

I know you like him and are playing devil's advocate, but you have to at least agree that he is a lot more privleged than most people. And although he has a tough job, he works a lot less than most of us who work for a living.

I will admit that he's a sharp dresser. And his hair is beyond reproach. Could that be the real reason you like him? Maybe there is an unspoken bond there?
I've heard he has hair plugs, don't know if it's true though...

And I wouldn't say that Senators simply because they're not in session aren't working pretty hard most of the time.

From what I know of his life, Biden has made it pretty much on his own. This may astound you, but according a review the Washington Post did last year Joe Biden's net worth stands at about 100-150,000 :eek5:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/24/AR2007032400305_pf.html

Quite a few people on this site with a higher net-worth than that. I guess he's not been engaging in much profiteering over his status and has outlayed a ton of cash for his kids educations.

200K might be a nice paycheck, but this hardly is deserving of the labels "rich" or "privilaged".

When you put him in context of the McCains, Clintons or even Obama there's a HUGE gap.

-spence

ouch, thats sad just on a personal note.
So how is that the guy that will get our economy back on track?

I read that his net worth was somewhere between $150K - $360K. That figure could be wrong, though. If he's making almost 200K a year and his net worth is that low, I'm a little concerned for him.

I'm not bashing the guy at all (except for earlier with the plagerism thing). I'm just trying to point out that to most Americans, he's not going to be a sympathetic figure because he's not a multi millionaire.

I read that his net worth was somewhere between $150K - $360K. That figure could be wrong, though. If he's making almost 200K a year and his net worth is that low, I'm a little concerned for him.

I'm not bashing the guy at all (except for earlier with the plagerism thing). I'm just trying to point out that to most Americans, he's not going to be a sympathetic figure because he's not a multi millionaire.

do senators have a pension? 401k? I would think after 30yrs he racked something up?

do senators have a pension? 401k? I would think after 30yrs he racked something up?
It's possible they only factored in more liquid assets? I didn't read the entire piece to see if they included the process they used to calculate.

-spence

You'd need to change that to 09.03.08, his last day was Palin's speech :cool:


Jim I know your not one to parrot, but you have no I dea that you could not sound anymore like John "I'm a Tool who inflates his own ratings' Dipetro on WPRO...
he has been (figuratively) ball washing Palin for 3 days.