http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=194983

thats pretty funny.

Most people in this world are just dumb.

I think this is a perfect example of the overwhelming ignorance that pervades the majority of our society. That short clip just really hit home for some reason. People like this will be lining up in droves to vote for The Chosen One in a few weeks.

God Bless our country. I cannot stress the level of dread and fear that I have when I think about Obama becoming the President of the United States. :doh::doh::doh:

What are you guys talking about, those people are qualified to to be Republican VPs. :rolleyes:

Anybody see Sarry's uneasiness in front of those Flyers fans. They should not parade koi in front of Muskies.

Maybe next week he can do the Trailer Parks of Texas about McCains Policies....bet the result would pretty much be the same. :rolleyes:

The problem isn't Mis-informed people voting for Obama or mis-informed people voting for McCain........Its Mis-informed people voting.

Both sides have there share of the Inept

I remember hearing 1 woman say about Bush "I don't know anything about his policies but he seems like a God fearing person so I'm voting for him"

Ignorance knows no political affliation although if you overlay a state by state map of income levels over one of average earnings, it gives you a pretty good idea.

Ignorance knows no political affliation although if you overlay a state by state map of income levels over one of average earnings, it gives you a pretty good idea.

exactly, thats why Obama can get away with saying he'll raise taxes on people making over 250K. He knows that wont hurt anyone voting for him.

Very few informed voters on either side.

People are too busy either working or partying to have the time to really look at the issues.

Most get their info from the morning paper or network news depending upon the bias of the reporter for their info.

Or the women quoted at a McCain rally saying Obama is an Arab.
Or shouting out 'terrorist'

Ignorance exists on both sides....

His tax plan is distorts the truth and I wish McCain would call him on it.

his 95% of people would get a tax cut is foolish because
1) about 1/3 of the country DOES NOT PAY TAXES
2) The top 25% of earners pay 86% of ALL federal taxes
3) the top 50% or earners pay 97% of all fed taxes
4)the top 1% pay 39% of ALL FED INCOME TAXES
5) If you tax the hell out of "the rich" the non-rich will suffer....why? think about it...who creates jobs? hint: it aint the poor.

The wall street journal: sums taxes up:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119786208643933077.html
In 1980, when the top income tax rate was 70%, the richest 1% paid only 19% of all income taxes; now, with a top rate of 35%, they pay more than double that share. With lower rates and fewer tax loopholes after the 1986 reform, there is less incentive to shelter income to avoid tax.

Obama wants to give tax refunds to non-tax payers...this is basically a national welfare check.

He distorts the warren bufftets and golden parachute CEO's with those small business people busting their ass. Increasing taxes on the 200K-1Mil rev is wrong in my view because THESE ARE THE GUYS that are CREATING JOBS. There is a BIG difference between the billionaire's, those small businessmen. In my view the government should CREATE INCENTIVES so the so called "rich" make Investments IN NEW TECHNOLOGIES and create JOBS. This is how the country will grow its economy NOT by taxing the piss out of those very people that YOU NEED TO CREATE GROWTH...and giving it to those that don't.

I don't like robin hood plans as I think that the same people that answered that Howard Stern survey will basically will be "bought" by the $1000 tax rebate obama bribe... they will get even though they don't work. I would rather see the "rich guy" invest that $1000 in a company that hires this dude (who will then pay taxes and contribute instead if being a drain).

However, in my view democrats (and I have many friends who are devout liberals) are "pro jobs" but "anti business" , they don't see the connection. They hate "big oil" but the the taxes big oil pays is mind boggling, far far more than the profits that get headline news.

His tax plan is distorts the truth and I wish McCain would call him on it.

his 95% of people would get a tax cut is foolish because
1) about 1/3 of the country DOES NOT PAY TAXES
2) The top 25% of earners pay 86% of ALL federal taxes
3) the top 50% or earners pay 97% of all fed taxes
4)the top 1% pay 39% of ALL FED INCOME TAXES
5) If you tax the hell out of "the rich" the non-rich will suffer....why? think about it...who creates jobs? hint: it aint the poor.

The wall street journal: sums taxes up:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119786208643933077.html
In 1980, when the top income tax rate was 70%, the richest 1% paid only 19% of all income taxes; now, with a top rate of 35%, they pay more than double that share. With lower rates and fewer tax loopholes after the 1986 reform, there is less incentive to shelter income to avoid tax.

Obama wants to give tax refunds to non-tax payers...this is basically a national welfare check.

He distorts the warren bufftets and golden parachute CEO's with those small business people busting their ass. Increasing taxes on the 200K-1Mil rev is wrong in my view because THESE ARE THE GUYS that are CREATING JOBS. There is a BIG difference between the billionaire's, those small businessmen. In my view the government should CREATE INCENTIVES so the so called "rich" make Investments IN NEW TECHNOLOGIES and create JOBS. This is how the country will grow its economy NOT by taxing the piss out of those very people that YOU NEED TO CREATE GROWTH...and giving it to those that don't.

I don't like robin hood plans as I think that the same people that answered that Howard Stern survey will basically will be "bought" by the $1000 tax rebate obama bribe... they will get even though they don't work. I would rather see the "rich guy" invest that $1000 in a company that hires this dude (who will then pay taxes and contribute instead if being a drain).

However, in my view democrats (and I have many friends who are devout liberals) are "pro jobs" but "anti business" , they don't see the connection. They hate "big oil" but the the taxes big oil pays is mind boggling, far far more than the profits that get headline news.

Great post.

However, expect a: "We already have a progressive tax system that practices redistribution of wealth" response in...

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nice post Jim, I agree 100%

What Obama supporters dont get and I wish McCain would have the brains to say this in a debate.
The "tax" goes to the government that will waste 75% of every tax dollar. Wouldnt it be better if that extra $ was spent on a cup of coffee, a tip for a waitress, a custom glass vase, a wooden plug, an new investment etc?

Jim, I thought McCain did bring that up but I guess he didn't go into any detail.

The way I see it is Obama is basically buying votes by promising tax refunds to the poor, the robinhood tax system :rollem:

The country is in for a real mess if he gets his way. I wish someone could explain to Obama why that tax is whacked.

I know who I am NOT voting for

"In 1980, when the top income tax rate was 70%, the richest 1% paid only 19% of all income taxes; now, with a top rate of 35%, they pay more than double that share. With lower rates and fewer tax loopholes after the 1986 reform, there is less incentive to shelter income to avoid tax." Quote

As a kind of a tax attorney- this "double their share" is because there a just a whole boat load of incredibly wealthy rich people out there. It is a totally meaningless statistic. The top 1% own more wealth than the bottom 95% combined. Not since the turn of the century have the rich been this rich. The rich are not being overburdened with taxes, they are paying the lowest taxes in history by far and they know it. They don't have to shelter income because the rates are so low.

These people are thrilled to pay income tax at the top rate of 35% and their dividends are taxed at only 15%. The wealthy know that their taxes are absurdly low from a historical perspective. Since the Bush tax breaks were enacted, it is estimated that those making more than $375,000 received tax reductions of $500 billion dollars. The 35% bracket does not kick in until your income is over $357,500. If the top rate is increased to 37% over $250,000 of income, A guy with $500,000 of income would pay around $7,500 more in taxes. Most clients I speak with would gladly do it if it meant reducing the deficit that is projected to be 1 trillion dollars just for the year ending September 30 2009.

But "if the rich had to pay more in taxes over $250,000, they would lay off many workers in their factories." "Why would rich people work hard if they had to pay more taxes." It is beyond belief that those words are spoken by humans.

Wealthy people know that they never had it so good. They know the bargain rates (especially the dividends tax which is unprecedented) have to end sometime. 37% or 38% is still lower than a 5 ounce bucktail with no heave.

wader-dad, that really makes no sense at all.
And be sure that Obamas tax increases will not reduce the deficit, they will be used for charity - paying for health care for people that do not work.
It doesnt matter now anyway, the government will soon own the banks and the majot investment cos. We are officially a socialist country. All down hill from here.

"As a kind of a tax attorney- this "double their share" is because there a just a whole boat load of incredibly wealthy rich people out there. It is a totally meaningless statistic. The top 1% own more wealth than the bottom 95% combined. Not since the turn of the century have the rich been this rich. The rich are not being overburdened with taxes, they are paying the lowest taxes in history by far and they know it. They don't have to shelter income because the rates are so low.

.

I don't get your math. the top 1% is not going to change because there are more wealthy people...the number of taxpayers in the top 1% is only going to change when there are more taxpayers, not more wealthy people. If there are 300 mil taxpayers 1% is 3 mil. However it is true there is an perceived "imbalance", as those top 1% are richer today than 20 years ago and hence pay more tax. Personally that fact that 1% is carrying 40% of the load while the bottom 1/3 is paying ZERO and having the largest drain on the country's systems frankly is pretty generous. In absolute terms yes they can "afford to pay more taxes" but that doesn't mean they should. I would rather see an incentive created for them to risk their wealth to create more real business activity in areas that benefit the nation (ie energy, technology, transportation etc)...the payoff for them if successful...more wealth, which they would deserve. The payoff for the rest of us more jobs, less stain on public services (better benefits), better economy and more payroll taxes coming in . I am a big fan of private venture capitalists and gov't research and dev. Most people have no idea how these two things have transformed our standard of living in this country. IMO these two things combined with a big math and science push among kids entering college can get this country out of this highly leveraged Harvard MBA hole we have dug for ourselves.
There are more rich people today than in the past...IMO this demonstrates what makes this country great...that a boatload of people can create their wealth in their lifetime by taking risks and creating something. I grant you there are a few of the overpaid golden parachuted CEO's that don't deserve a dime and should be in prison IMO. I actually know one...lost a billion of other peoples money and then got 50 mil to leave the company. This is wrong and everyone agrees on that but these are the very few, but Obama constantly makes reference to he will be taxing these (rich white) guys but in reality, he will be taxing far more of the the guys trying to start a business. There is a big difference when hitting the billionaires and the business man. (the top 1% vs the top 5%


I am not a McCain lover. But I despise everything Obama. The reason isn't color although I have no doubt the bulk of the black population is voting for him because of his race yet the media makes Joe Six-pack ( average white guy)out to be the racist. The reason I really don't like Obama (beyond his flawed veiw of the tax structure) is that I see the president as the Commander in Chief of the Armed forces first and foremost. And McCain would be a far better and far more respected commander. That in a nutshell is what is most important to me in a president. The President does not spend money, he can't really. It is congress who votes on the budgets. Sure the President submits a budget but it rarely gets voted thru, the congress normally discards that and creates their own version.
So I see an Obama president as a real weakness for one of our country's greatest strengths, our military. Besides destroying capitalism he will begin the socialist transformation and destroy the work ethic and free enterprise and investment of this nation. There has to be a carrot on the stick for those that take risks and the carrot is cash. People will not work in the peace corp fashion forever with no pay, they just won't. His vision is flawed.
Ahhh, I vented, I feel much better now. Now that all the worlds problems are solved, I think I will go try and catch a bonito now.:fishin::jester:

Rather than focus on the negatives, lets focus on the positives.

What is a fair living wage in this country ? Id say its $15 to $20 an hour if your single. If the bulk of the lower class were making that kind of money, this country would be back on track again.

I have no idea what minimum wage is these days, but I figure its under $10 an hour...

What I am saying is that the cost of living has skyrocketed and personal income has stagnated. As a result, people are defaulting on their mortgages and credit card debt.. To solve this, people have to earn more money.. its the only solution.

Bush & Paulson, the Harvard MBA club, are already instituting socialism...under the guise of saving the free market, you dont have to wait for Obama. And this commander-in-chief talk, what the hell is Bush, I hope you voted for Gore & Kerry (a veteran), cause Bush has done a terrible disservice to our armed forces, and for what? Maybe you can help me understand that.

Maybe it is not socialism, maybe its the largest Bank robbery in American history and the FDIC aint insuring this one, its you and me, the taxpayer. Paulson is lining the pocket of his cohorts, paying dividends, corporate recreation expenditures and CEO bonuses to ivy league frat brothers who gambled away millions of dollars and your worried about blacks. Sounds more like cronyism- which is worse than socialism. Your right Sandy, this aint about race....cause what are you getting out of this, the same thing Joe Six Pack and Hakeem Jones get....NOTHING. The leadership of the past 8 years has really screwed us over, there is no doubt about it. Now I'm not saying you should go out and do something irrational like vote for Obama, but the greatest trick played on the masses by the powers that be is putting poor people in different corners of the ring and letting them slug it out. In one corner you have the blacks, in the other you have the whites, and the latinos are in the other. Maybe its time to choke the referee and burn down the (insert corporate entity here) Arena.

Rather than focus on the negatives, lets focus on the positives.

What I am saying is that the cost of living has skyrocketed and personal income has stagnated. As a result, people are defaulting on their mortgages and credit card debt.. To solve this, people have to earn more money.. its the only solution.

That is one solution. The other would be to force people to live within their means. This down turn will surely wake some people up, I hope.

Maybe I should tone down the rhetoric, I'm starting to sound like Will Ayers at the Alaska Indepenedence Party Convention in the golden heart city of Fairbanks with Rev Wright in the front row.

lets talk about living within one's means...
these #'s are just off the top of my head and are not my living costs, but it will give you an idea of what it costs to live within one's means if you own a house and have a small family

an average mortgage is 1500 a month.

gas for one car- $50 a week (used to be 30) for a tank

car payment- $200

food- $500

health insurance- 1200

retirement savings- 1000

random purchases (clothes, misc) 500

seasonal expenses-

heating oil for your house for 5 months- 2000
remember summer vacations?? 2000

You basically need to make 60 grand a year to get by if you own a house and have a small family.. 60 grand a year works out to $30-$35 an hour for a 40 hour work week. I dont see many jobs out there that pay that these days..

average mortgage 1500 - maybe rent, not everybody CAN afford a home

gas - ok

car payment - why? drive a beater if you are struggling, a loan on a depreciating asset makes no sense.

food - ok, make sure wife shops sales and uses coupons

health insurance - hard to skimp on that one

retirement savings - 0 if you are in debt. get out of debt first.

random purchases - ?? If you are struggling, you shouldn't be spending 500 a month on clothes and crap. Thats why you are in trouble with the credit cards.

Heating oil - tough to save on that too, but there are things that one can do (put on a sweater)

Summer vacations - Again, if you are swimming in credit card debt and car loan payments, you shouldn't be going on vacation for 2k.

I just trimmed a lot of fat out of that budget.

These are lessons that my grandparents learned during the great depression. The same lessons that banks learned, and have forgotten as the old guard changed. People are relearning these lessons the hard way every day.

60k works out to 28 bucks an hour, or 2 adults making 14 an hour.

Rather than focus on the negatives, lets focus on the positives.

What is a fair living wage in this country ? Id say its $15 to $20 an hour if your single. If the bulk of the lower class were making that kind of money, this country would be back on track again.

I have no idea what minimum wage is these days, but I figure its under $10 an hour...

What I am saying is that the cost of living has skyrocketed and personal income has stagnated. As a result, people are defaulting on their mortgages and credit card debt.. To solve this, people have to earn more money.. its the only solution.


Positives?

Where does this money come from?

Lets run some numbers under your economic package:

(hypo) I am a small busness owner. I have 15 employees (uneducated, unskilled) who make your minimum wage of $10 an hour. They work 8 hours a week 50 weeks a year:

15 employees x $10= $150 per hour
$150 x 8 hours a day= $1,200 per day
$1,200 x 5 days a week = $6,000 per week
$6000 x 50 weeks a year (2 week vacation)= $300,000 year (payroll)

(And this doesn't even include the health insurance that the employer also pays into, which is a whole other argument)

Under your plan since the lower class needs more money, I just double everybody's salary by $10 to $20 an hour and double my payroll up to $600,000? That's how we solve this? We run the small business owner out of business on the spot, in doing so we eradicate the 15 jobs that these people had. Now they go on unemployment, welfare,WIC and begin to suck off the public teat?

I really don't know how to say this... but we do not get this country back on track by stuffing the pockets of the lower class. That is a panacea fraught with it's own set of problems.

Right on Bronko but I think most Americans don't get it (or atleast the ones in the Obama camp)and are so dumbed down that your point is not entering anyones' brain cells. Our own elected officials can't see the common sense of your statement :hs:
sad really if the country goes down that road:bsod:

If I spoil my kids and keep giving and giving, they will have no incentive to go work or do good in school, it's the same with the Government bailing out anyone that needs it:deadhorse:

:hs: :hs:

Congress better do a better job of seeing the future or we will need a revolution

...
average mortgage 1500 - maybe rent, not everybody CAN afford a home. Rent 1300 a month (didn't knock a whole lot off there)

gas - ok

car payment - why? drive a beater if you are struggling, a loan on a depreciating asset makes no sense. Might work except that any beater is now not going to pass inspection so you end up soaking a chunk of money in maintenace to get it to work and pass, and I don't consider a dependable vehicle a luxury, I've never owned a new car but I would like something dependable....(which is going to result a car payment)
food - ok, make sure wife shops sales and uses coupons. $500 is a low estimate even when using coupons. A family of 4 that drinks a gallon of milk every day is spending $90 - $100 a month just on that

health insurance - hard to skimp on that one

retirement savings - 0 if you are in debt. get out of debt first.

random purchases - ?? If you are struggling, you shouldn't be spending 500 a month on clothes and crap. Thats why you are in trouble with the credit cards. Electricity, Water, School Supplies, Kids Fees for Sports (All Stuff that used to be alot cheaper or even free in your Grandfathers Days) Oh and lets talk $1000 a week in Daycare since you have both parents working now to get to that $60,000 a year ( another thing they diodn't have to do in your grandparent's day

Heating oil - tough to save on that too, but there are things that one can do (put on a sweater)

Summer vacations - Again, if you are swimming in credit card debt and car loan payments, you shouldn't be going on vacation for 2k.

I just trimmed a lot of fat out of that budget.

These are lessons that my grandparents learned during the great depression. The same lessons that banks learned, and have forgotten as the old guard changed. People are relearning these lessons the hard way every day.

60k works out to 28 bucks an hour, or 2 adults making 14 an hour. **See Daycare Above**

I just don't agree that a dependable vehicle has to equal a loan payment. I also don't agree that a family of 4 will drink a gallon of milk a day, they will suffer calcium deposits if they do ;)

Families can and do feed themselves on less than 500 a month. Its about choices.

What daycare charges 1000 a week for 2 kids? Thats crazy, and I have one in daycare. The US government gives you back a 5000 dollar daycare credit (available to most everybody). It isn't much, but it was put in the tax codes decades ago.

Like I said, people are learning these lessons every day. The other solution is to raise the crap out of everybody's income. I guess you could wait around for the government to do that for you, or you could just do it yourself. I've never relied on the government for that sort of thing, and I pray I never have to.

People really are living beyond their means. Why should the government step in to help them live even further beyond their means?

Thats why we should bring back tariffs on imports, the rest of the world does it, why dont we. There are some things we should just make here in this country. The vast majority (around 75%) of international trade is from the outsourced production site too the market somewhere else within the same company.

We go through about a gallon a day in milk.....probably 6 a week is what we do......Kids drink milk...they're supposed to its good for them. and I might be able to feed them for $500 a month if I cut out things like Meat and Fruits/Vegetables...I mean a friggin Tomato cost $1.50 nowadays

and its $1000 a month, thats what all the other amounts stated were. And the $5000 tax credit just goes against taxable income....its not like you get an extra $5000 back at the end of the year

Oh and we forgot about the insurance on that old Beater....there's another monthly payment

and I don't agree that the government shoud step in and give people handouts and help them live beyond their means......I'm just backing up the argument that "The Means" has gotten outrageously expensive nowadays

I just don't agree that a dependable vehicle has to equal a loan payment. I also don't agree that a family of 4 will drink a gallon of milk a day, they will suffer calcium deposits if they do ;)

Families can and do feed themselves on less than 500 a month. Its about choices.

What daycare charges 1000 a week for 2 kids? Thats crazy, and I have one in daycare. The US government gives you back a 5000 dollar daycare credit (available to most everybody). It isn't much, but it was put in the tax codes decades ago.

Like I said, people are learning these lessons every day. The other solution is to raise the crap out of everybody's income. I guess you could wait around for the government to do that for you, or you could just do it yourself. I've never relied on the government for that sort of thing, and I pray I never have to.

People really are living beyond their means. Why should the government step in to help them live even further beyond their means?

My point of those #'s was to prove that one needs 60 grand to live a comfortable lifestyle.. Not to get by.

If the masses of this country were empowered by better wages, they would spend more and as a result our nation would prosper. This great nation of ours started going down the crapper the moment 2 things happened- tarrifs on imports were dropped and exporting jobs was raised..

Our own elected officials can't see the common sense of your statement :hs:




No common sense is the big part of the problem.
They're so busy thinking they're so smart and above everybody else,they wouldn't know common sense if they fell over it.

They have outsmarted themselves.

Ya gotta live within your means no matter what, and so does the government.
People didn't and the government won't, now it's time to pay the piper.

Obama wanting to spend another 3 trillion on top of the debt we're in is insane.

My point of those #'s was to prove that one needs 60 grand to live a comfortable lifestyle.. Not to get by.

If the masses of this country were empowered by better wages, they would spend more and as a result our nation would prosper. This great nation of ours started going down the crapper the moment 2 things happened- tarrifs on imports were dropped and exporting jobs was raised..

Please re-read the second paragraph of your post, I beg you.

If we up/inflate wages, business lose money and the only alternatives to going out of business are to layoffs or "exporting jobs." Once those products are made overseas we need to get them back into the country..... so we import them! (tariff free) because we need them!

And by the way, in my eyes, our nation has never been in the crapper.

there is your flawed logic- you do not recognize that our economy is in the crapper..

oddly enough, i just noticed this piece in the NY Times..

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/15/business/economy/15leonhardt.html

economy vs. country

economy yes, country no

ecconomy is what I meant all along. I was not clear on that. :wave:

ecconomy is what I meant all along. I was not clear on that. :wave:


I was answering you post where you said our Country was in the crapper, and I strongly defend that it is not.

I would agree that currently our economy IS in the crapper.

its very hard to get your point across sometimes on here..:bsod:

So if raising wages wont work, and the gubmint is broke... whats the answer?

[QUOTE=Bronko;628940]Please re-read the second paragraph of your post, I beg you.

If we up/inflate wages, business lose money and the only alternatives to going out of business are to layoffs or "exporting jobs." Once those products are made overseas we need to get them back into the country..... so we import them! (tariff free) because we need them!
QUOTE]

Now I'm hardly an economist and please correct me if i'm wrong but...

If businesses rase wages, they will raise prices, but they dont have to ship jobs overseas if government protections are in place. A depression not withstanding, prices will go up anyway, its just a question of how much. The market and the elasticity of demand usually decides that.

But if we impose tariffs, we increase government revenue, pay down debt and domestic producers will fill the vacuum (ie made in America, remember that!) created by imports.

Keep in mind, the unregulated healthcare system screws businesses far more than incremental wage increases (most hardworkers get raises anyway, regardless of government wage mandates). Healthcare cost are out of control not wage increases. The burden is heaviest on employers. Health care cost chased american automakers across the Detroit River to Ontario precisely because government foots the bill and they ship the cars to US dealers practically duty free.

[QUOTE=Bronko;628940]Please re-read the second paragraph of your post, I beg you.

If we up/inflate wages, business lose money and the only alternatives to going out of business are to layoffs or "exporting jobs." Once those products are made overseas we need to get them back into the country..... so we import them! (tariff free) because we need them!
QUOTE]

Now I'm hardly an economist and please correct me if i'm wrong but...

If businesses rase wages, they will raise prices, but they dont have to ship jobs overseas if government protections are in place. A depression not withstanding, prices will go up anyway, its just a question of how much. The market and the elasticity of demand usually decides that.

But if we impose tariffs, we increase government revenue, pay down debt and domestic producers will fill the vacuum (ie made in America, remember that!) created by imports.

Keep in mind, the unregulated healthcare system screws businesses far more than incremental wage increases (most hardworkers get raises anyway, regardless of government wage mandates). Healthcare cost are out of control not wage increases. The burden is heaviest on employers. Health care cost chased american automakers across the Detroit River to Ontario precisely because government foots the bill and they ship the cars to US dealers practically duty free.

I think we agree more than we disagree. (healthcare/ tariffs) There is clearly a conundrum however in regards to wage/employment/outsourcing etc.

If businesses raise prices too high to cover their wage increases, consumers will throw the old "buy american" out the window to try and get the better (albeit foreign) deal.

It's no mystery, small and large businessmen have been walking the fine line between profit an loss forever while juggling costs and liability at the same time. The margins are shrinking.

And I would NEVER claim that I am an economist. I can barely add.:wave:

raising prices is not always the answer to making more money.

for example if ford was to come out with a car that gets 30 mpg, sells for under 10 grand and looks nice, I am sure they will sell 10 times as many cars as one that gets 30 mpg and is 15 grand.

So if raising wages wont work, and the gubmint is broke... whats the answer?
You've got to stop thinking like an honest man.

oh.. BOMB IRAN!!

Rather than focus on the negatives, lets focus on the positives.

What is a fair living wage in this country ? Id say its $15 to $20 an hour if your single. If the bulk of the lower class were making that kind of money, this country would be back on track again.

I have no idea what minimum wage is these days, but I figure its under $10 an hour...

What I am saying is that the cost of living has skyrocketed and personal income has stagnated. As a result, people are defaulting on their mortgages and credit card debt.. To solve this, people have to earn more money.. its the only solution.

A fair living wage is directly relative to how hard you are willing to work for it. Work hard earn more, not so hard not so much. Thats fair.

No surprise here:huh:

The lady who cleans my house can barely speak english - I asked her how many houses she cleans and said "25, some every week, and some every other week, and three businesses" She's pulling down a conservative 75K...It's hard work, but it beats sewing shirts in Guatemala.

That's a LOT of work to catch up on. To even come near getting rid of American debt, every American Citizen, and I mean EVERY MAN, WOMAN, CHILD, BABY, SENIOR must pay $30,000. I believe this was an outcome set by my "parents," well not literally since they weren't born here, but I think you get my point. The issue of "living beyond our means" is far more complicated than just that. You should be cautious when you describe complications with simple phrases as such. Simple phrases like "work harder = make more" or "class warefare," or "Americans are lazy."

Our educational system is failing, and it is failing miserably. A faltering educational system inandofitself is a wash of money. If American citizens do not have a reliable educational system, they will present with situations that cost money from EVERYONE. Educational level is both directly and indirectly related to:

Crime, poverty, health disparities and chronic disease, drug abuse, drug misuse, drug use in general, political involvement, political awareness, environmental awareness, utilization of resources to further socioeconomic progression, and much more....

Failures of these cost society a TON of money. Proof? The United States has the highest child poverty rate in the developed world.

And that's just the problem of education. Don't forget the problems of our reliance on fossil fuels has polluted our environment. This alone has also affected the health of today's youth. In fact, their lifespan are expected to be shorter!

We can not even provide proper nutrition to all of our citizens. The flaws of our old legislation alone has cost us sooooo much money, and most don't even realize it.

I agree with you that Americans live far beyond their means, I don't doubt that at all. But there are variety of larger factors that really come into play.

I'm just trying to get rid of the stereotype that Americans are arrogant and lazy. Besides working harder and making more money, there should be more. Even if we caught up on our own debt, our society has been set up to consistently waste money instead of utilizing it properly and efficiently.

If you want to blame a poor job market on illegal immigrants, then you should be blaming America in the first place for exploiting their home countries to an inhumane extent that they have no other choice but to seek work HERE. It all kinda goes back to our structural flaws.

Progressive thinking, social tolerance, volunteering, distribution of quality education, provision of health care to prevent unneccesary health care costs....pretty much restoration of everything that's failing, I feel like that's what we need (and more) in addition to just working harder and spending less.

wow, I dont have enough energy to respond to all of that! So just some food for thought.
1. is our education system failing? Or is that parents are failing there children? Libraries and access to many musuems are FREE.
2. Americans have the most malnurished children among developed nations? Are you sure about that statistic? From what I can see, children in school can get free lunches is they qualify. Once again, I blame the parerts. Carrots are cheaper than Doritos.
3. I dont think Americans are ignorant and lazy, but I am pretty sure that a large percentage of those Americans who have children who are not getting enough nutrition or educatation are lazy.
One word and its something I see slipping away from all facets of live - Accountability!
And it comes from the top down - anyone hear Obama on meet the press with his cigarette addiction? He basically tells Brokaw that he has not quit but says " I have been doing a terrific job" since when is failing terrific? Accountability!