Or just another snake in the grass politician? Seriously, take a look. First there was reverend Wright and his racist insane ramblings of which Obama listened to and subscribed to for 20 years. I mean this guy was a family friend, married he and his wife and baptised his kids etc. He then tries to claim he never heard any of the much publicized audio clips we all heard, attempts to play 'mickey the dunce' until the heat was too much, he then denounces some of the good reverends preaching as hateful and devisive. If he sat for 20 years in this church and never heard the hate or vitriol, is he going to 'get it' when sitting down with insane world leaders like Chavez etc?

Then there was the association with William Ayers that everybody is aware of (besides Obama). For a while Obama was saying he had never met/associated with Ayers, then as details surface about a closer relationship and that Obama announced his intent to run for the Senate at Ayers house... he began to 'remember' that they ran in the same politcal circles in Chicago.

Now we have his aunt. The great inspirational Onyango, who Obama wrote about in his book. This great woman who he admired so much for her caring and her strength, whom he learned so many life lessons. A woman who was at his 2005 swearing in in Chicago and has (illegally) donated $260 to his campaign. We now come to find out she is living in the projects in Southie more or less for free and she is an illegal alien who was ordered (and refused) to leave the country by an immigration judge. And he didn't know?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27481680/

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1108/15161.html

I mean did he really not know? Do any of you not know that your favorite aunt is an illegal alien? Even if he didn't know, shouldn't have he known???

The guy just seems like a dope. Even if he is being honest, then his lack of general awareness and common sense is astounding.

Or just another snake in the grass politician? Seriously, take a look. First there was reverend Wright and his racist insane ramblings of which Obama listened to and subscribed to for 20 years. I mean this guy was a family friend, married he and his wife and baptised his kids etc. He then tries to claim he never heard any of the much publicized audio clips we all heard, attempts to play 'mickey the dunce' until the heat was too much, he then denounces some of the good reverends preaching as hateful and devisive. If he sat for 20 years in this church and never heard the hate or vitriol, is he going to 'get it' when sitting down with insane world leaders like Chavez etc?

Then there was the association with William Ayers that everybody is aware of (besides Obama). For a while Obama was saying he had never met/associated with Ayers, then as details surface about a closer relationship and that Obama announced his intent to run for the Senate at Ayers house... he began to 'remember' that they ran in the same politcal circles in Chicago.

Now we have his aunt. The great inspirational Onyango, who Obama wrote about in his book. This great woman who he admired so much for her caring and her strength, whom he learned so many life lessons. A woman who was at his 2005 swearing in in Chicago and has (illegally) donated $260 to his campaign. We now come to find out she is living in the projects in Southie more or less for free and she is an illegal alien who was ordered (and refused) to leave the country by an immigration judge. And he didn't know?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27481680/

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1108/15161.html

I mean did he really not know? Do any of you not know that your favorite aunt is an illegal alien? Even if he didn't know, shouldn't have he known???

The guy just seems like a dope. Even if he is being honest, then his lack of general awareness and common sense is astounding.

Beyond believe. The plot thickens.

if you lived with your dad until you were 2 and then spent one month of your life with him when you were a teen, would you be expected to keep tabs on everyone on that side of the family?

I wouldnt.

perhaps we can discuss how Mccain cheated on his wife?

perhaps we can discuss how Mccain cheated on his wife?

Which one?

first one. He cheated on her with the beer barron then kicked her to the curb.

heres a link

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_john_mccain_cheat_on_his_first.html

My honest assessment of the issues you mentioned.

1) The aunt - it's quite reasonable to believe he didn't know her status wasn't legal. I'm basing this on the notion that had she asked him to help her, he was in a position to get it done, and that if she didn't want to ask for help it's probably the last thing she would have ever told him. Sure it's possible he knew, but without any proof I don't think you have anything to base this on.

2) Ayers - sure he downplayed his association which seems the obvious move. I've read a ton into this issue and by my reconing it's a BS argument. He only had association with Ayers when he was a somewhat mainstream member of the Chicago community. They lectured at the same school and republican associates who were there at the time say they don't believe Obama was ever influenced by the man. The board they shared was founded by a former Reagan associate and included bi-partisan members.

This is one hardcore strawman BS nothing to see issue.

3) Wright - I've blabbed on a length about this issue so I won't bother to repeat myself, aside from noting that I think it's the most substantial issue of the bunch. That being said, I don't think it's a showstopper considering the context (i.e. read old threads).

I do think this issue is difficult for a lot of regular white people to understand. Black guy trying to find himself, working on the south side of Chicago, big black church where all the power is...you do the math.

-spence

Its all moot spence. 11 point spread... huge electoral advantage..

Its over.

if you lived with your dad until you were 2 and then spent one month of your life with him when you were a teen, would you be expected to keep tabs on everyone on that side of the family?

I wouldnt.

perhaps we can discuss how Mccain cheated on his wife?

Might be the lamest responsive to a political thread in the histoy of this forum, congrats.

You guys must all live in glass houses??:bl:

My honest assessment of the issues you mentioned.

1) The aunt - it's quite reasonable to believe he didn't know her status wasn't legal. I'm basing this on the notion that had she asked him to help her, he was in a position to get it done, and that if she didn't want to ask for help it's probably the last thing she would have ever told him. Sure it's possible he knew, but without any proof I don't think you have anything to base this on.

2) Ayers - sure he downplayed his association which seems the obvious move. I've read a ton into this issue and by my reconing it's a BS argument. He only had association with Ayers when he was a somewhat mainstream member of the Chicago community. They lectured at the same school and republican associates who were there at the time say they don't believe Obama was ever influenced by the man. The board they shared was founded by a former Reagan associate and included bi-partisan members.

This is one hardcore strawman BS nothing to see issue.

3) Wright - I've blabbed on a length about this issue so I won't bother to repeat myself, aside from noting that I think it's the most substantial issue of the bunch. That being said, I don't think it's a showstopper considering the context (i.e. read old threads).

I do think this issue is difficult for a lot of regular white people to understand. Black guy trying to find himself, working on the south side of Chicago, big black church where all the power is...you do the math.

-spence

Yea, yea, I hear the standard party brush off answers. I have no problem with your attempts to rationalize his behavior, you have to, you are voting for him. But I can get these canned responses from my sister in-law. I want to know what YOU think, you enjoy the political banter in this forum. Forget about the results, its pretty clear Obama/Nebe will will. I want to know if deep down you believe this guy when he looks into the camera and talks to you. Any trepidations? Any fears?

Yea, yea, I hear the standard party brush off answers. I have no problem with your attempts to rationalize his behavior, you have to, you are voting for him. But I can get these canned responses from my sister in-law. I want to know what YOU think, you enjoy the political banter in this forum. Forget about the results, its pretty clear Obama/Nebe will will. I want to know if deep down you believe this guy when he looks into the camera and talks to you. Any trepidations? Any fears?

Here is what I think! I think they both suck so name your poison........cause one way or the other.......we are all gonna be bending over!:humpty:

Might be the lamest responsive to a political thread in the histoy of this forum, congrats.

how so? Seems like perfect logic to me :uhuh:

Here is what I think! I think they both suck so name your poison........cause one way or the other.......we are all gonna be bending over!:humpty:

How is Obama going to give it to you? Id like to hear your logic Bigfish

how so? Seems like perfect logic to me :uhuh:

:buds: A tad mean spirited on my part. Aplologies.

:buds: A tad mean spirited on my part. Aplologies.

its OK. I know how it feels to be on the loosing team :hee:

I take either of these guys over Bush. In fact I'll take Ceasar Chavez from Venezuala over him.

McCain cheating is a problem with you but Obama has the King adulterer Clinton speaking on his behalf tonight and you have no problem with that??? Clinton: "I did not have sexual relations with that woman......oh no, wait a minute......maybe I did"???!!!! :conf:

Yea, yea, I hear the standard party brush off answers. I have no problem with your attempts to rationalize his behavior, you have to, you are voting for him. But I can get these canned responses from my sister in-law. I want to know what YOU think, you enjoy the political banter in this forum. Forget about the results, its pretty clear Obama/Nebe will will. I want to know if deep down you believe this guy when he looks into the camera and talks to you. Any trepidations? Any fears?

I'm insulted to think you're accusing me of simply spitting up talking points.

Obama doesn't scare me, he may in fact be pretty good assuming he governs from the middle and isn't strong armed by Congress. I've said before that the Dem super majority is my best and about only compelling reason to vote for McCain right now.

-spence

McCain cheating is a problem with you but Obama has the King adulterer Clinton speaking on his behalf tonight and you have no problem with that???

No because its Clinton, not Obama.
Lets keep with reality here shall we?

I'm insulted to think you're accusing me of simply spitting up talking points.

Obama doesn't scare me, he may in fact be pretty good assuming he governs from the middle and isn't strong armed by Congress. I've said before that the Dem super majority is my best and about only compelling reason to vote for McCain right now.

-spence

I think its obvious he'll get his lunch money stolen on a daily basis by the "super majority." Its going to be a real wake-up call for him when the rump swabs start knocking on his door for their favors. He does not liked to be called out or disagreed with. Hell he tossed reporters off his plane that didn't endorse him ala George W. Bush style.

By the way... Salty, these numbers getting close enough for you???


From a 10/31 WSJ article:

Today, Obama Campaign Surrogate Gov. Bill Richardson (D-NM) Further Lowered The Ceiling For Tax Cuts Under An Obama Administration To $120,000:
Gov. Bill Richardson: "What Obama wants to do is, he is basically looking at $120,000 and under, among those that are in the middle class, and there is a tax cut for those." (KOA-AM, Interview With Gov. Bill Richardson, 10/31/08)

Just A Few Days Ago, Biden Lowered The Ceiling For Tax Cuts To $150,000, Confirming What Obama Let Slip Earlier In The Campaign -- That Americans Would See Higher Taxes Starting At $150,000:

Clinton: "I did not have sexual relations with that woman......oh no, wait a minute......maybe I did"???!!!! :conf:


Eatin' ain't Cheatin' :hihi: (This is where my wife smacks me upside the head)


I said it about Clinton and I'll say it about McCain....Ain't Nobody's business But his, his wife, and the woman he was fooling around with. Don't Care. Doesn't Matter.

and as far as Obama's Aunt...you can't pick your family. I know that both me and my wife have some real doozies in our family trees. You could pick a side and start a reality TV show.

Exactly.

I have two aunts on a side of my family that I wouldn't know if they were selling crack or running for congress.

And no republican president ever got his pole washed? Clinton got caught.
thats the only difference!

Like a ball player....I only care what he does between the lines/on the ice/ on the court or on the field! Thats the reality!

In past elections, the Carl Rove Playbook and the politics of personal destruction worked very well.
However, you can't run the same strategy again and again and expect the competition not to find holes in it. That's what has happened here: the same old dirty politics has been dusted off and sent out, only this time it does not resonate with the electorate. Obama may have been beatable, but not by negative association.

I do think this issue is difficult for a lot of regular white people to understand. Black guy trying to find himself, working on the south side of Chicago, big black church where all the power is...you do the math.

-spence

Establishing relationships with organizations for political purposes is as old as politics. Starting with Freemasons in the 19th century and moving on from there.

Hell, I'm a lawyer. I've never run for office, but political affiliation can be a factor in your success. When I lived in Nassau County, NY, which was run by the Margiaotta/Mondello GOP machine, I was a Republican. If you ever wanted to work in the public sector, or do business with the county, you had to be a registered Republican. Did that mean I voted the straight ticket in every election from president on down? Hell no. But if someone was to check, they could find out, especially if I was now running for something as a Democrat. Oh and as soon as I registered in Mass, that registration switched over to a D.

There was a time when if you wanted to run for political office in the South, you had to belong to the Klan. I don't hold it against Robert Byrd that he was in the Klan--I hold use of the "N-word" against him within the last few years as evidence that he still is a bigot.

For those saying that associations dont mean anything, think about this....if McCain sat in a white supremacist church for 20 yrs, do you think it would be overblown by the media??Most certainly It would have been plastered all over every newspaper and he would be run out of town on a rail and rightly so. But because Obama is who he is, its all chalked up to "Well, he was just trying to fit in." When he is president, who will he cozy up to? Because he really just wants to fit in? :huh:

For those saying that associations dont mean anything, think about this....if McCain sat in a white supremacist church for 20 yrs, do you think it would be overblown by the media??Most certainly It would have been plastered all over every newspaper and he would be run out of town on a rail and rightly so. But because Obama is who he is, its all chalked up to "Well, he was just trying to fit in." When he is president, who will he cozy up to? Because he really just wants to fit in? :huh:

Achmedajihad, Chavez, Hazbola, towelbahn, etc.

What the heck is Hazbola and towelbahn?

towelbahn woud be the Rhode Island-ese pronunciation for the discount bath store Towel Barn

I did not say that associations did not matter - I said that it was a tired strategy and the wrong strategy to beat Obama.

to be secretary of state over Bill Richardson

than yes....he's a total idiot...

i mean look at Bill R and he almost looks like an ARAB
with that little goatee he's sportin lately....

Hilary would only infuriate the Arabs to no end...
(or any other world leader and or diplomat)

unless that's Baraks true intention to sick Hilary on them :grins:
(red rover,red rover send Hilary over)

but at the moment i am very scared
of the havoc she'd create in that position... BIGTIME :devil2:

Hill won't be pushing our God over theirs. Remember that the World loved the Clintons, Bushes, not so much. Bill R is a good man, but not as S of S.

i think that when Bill Richardson demanded that all information relating to Roswell and the cover up
be turned over to the public in a full disclosure
he pissed off the wrong people.....:call:

Hillary "is" a Bulldog..... and is undoubtedly as tough
a negotiator as the Job requires.... it's just that
she's been known to power trip a bit to much...

BHO's true motive and strategy in putting Hillary on his team is far too transparent for the Clintons to fall for.

All I can say is LEWINSKIES FOR ALL

:happy:

i misogynistically oppose Hilary Clinton's appointment to Secretary of State...

Bill Richardson is showing interest... now,
i'm hoping he gets it....

I think she would be a smart pick. She'll give Obama cover on centrist or more hardline policy, she's respected abroad and very tough.

-spence

Arabs don't respect no broads :wall:

dissing Condy Rice proved that out

Arabs don't respect no broads :wall:

dissing Condy Rice proved that out

I remember Putin dissing Rice but not any arabs.

People will respect confidence and power, she certainly has that.

-spence

I dont like this idea. Not to knock Hillary, but bringing in hillary doesn't say CHANGE to me...She will do a great job, but she will not help ending the polarization of America's people.

I dont like this idea. Not to knock Hillary, but bringing in hillary doesn't say CHANGE to me...She will do a great job, but she will not help ending the polarization of America's people.

I don't think you're going to be liking most of his appointments in that case.

I remember Putin dissing Rice but not any arabs.

People will respect confidence and power, she certainly has that.

-spence

I'm not remembering whom it was Spence...
just that when she was over their doing her job
they blew her off and didn't even show up....
~
i'll have to look for that... granted she has confidence and power... no question there,
but just by being female she creates tensions
and they (certain leaders)
don't want to be talked down to
by a woman...

Bill Richardson on the other hand puts them all at ease

I know.. his chief of staff is a great example of that.


hmmm.

Sex schmex - jesus, at least the Dems affairs are heterosexual and the GOP...well...:bshake::humpty:

Hey, not that there's anything wrong with that - it's still pretty much a free country regardless of Bush's best efforts.

Honestly, in my lifetime the rule on political scandals has always seemed to be:

- If it's a Democrat, it's sex,

- And if it's a Republican, it's fraud, thievery, chicanery, abuse of power and an all out assault on the rights granted to us by the Constitution.

Sex always seems to be secondary at best to members of the GOP. Gotta be a WASP thing, I dunno, we've never had a Republican in the wood-pile in my family so I wouldn't really know :hihi:

if all the foreign leaders had to come to this country

that would be one thing....

but going over there they have more clout and attitude.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQquYQ7NvzQ

Sex schmex - jesus, at least the Dems affairs are heterosexual and the GOP...well...:bshake::humpty:

Hey, not that there's anything wrong with that - it's still pretty much a free country regardless of Bush's best efforts.

Honestly, in my lifetime the rule on political scandals has always seemed to be:

- If it's a Democrat, it's sex,

- And if it's a Republican, it's fraud, thievery, chicanery, abuse of power and an all out assault on the rights granted to us by the Constitution.

Sex always seems to be secondary at best to members of the GOP. Gotta be a WASP thing, I dunno, we've never had a Republican in the wood-pile in my family so I wouldn't really know :hihi:

THAT's the voice I hear in my head all the time!:laugha:

I can see pantsuits becoming a global fashion statement.

Crafty... Barney Frank... and Gerry Studds.. are the execption to your rule then.. i guess... ;)
at least with the sex thing.....

Anyone remember Wilbur Mills, and his stripper friend, the Argentinian Firecracker? :buds:

There was a guy who went down in flames, with style :humpty:

Wilbur and the Firecracker flamed out in the Tidal Basin in DC. Now THAT was an epic night out!!

Crafty... Barney Frank... and Gerry Studds.. are the execption to your rule then.. i guess... ;)
at least with the sex thing.....

Okay, Karl, ya got me there - but at least they don't make any bones about it...ooops, probably not the right thing to say...

I guess it's the hypocrisy issue for me - many of these Republicans who were outted by being caught in the act had previously taken very strong stances against that behavior :hs:

Barney is frequently seen down at the MM clinic i've read.

The fact is the aunt was a very important person in his life and not a distant relative. The guy could not get a job in the secret service.He couldn't pass a background check for a lot of jobs.

The fact is the aunt was a very important person in his life and not a distant relative. The guy could not get a job in the secret service.He couldn't pass a background check for a lot of jobs.

Very important? Based on what?

-spence