WTF is with these people that feel the need to get money from the govt? Hey if I frig my business up and have too many employees, make too much inventory, and generally couldnt sell my product because the economy turned downward why would it be ok for me to get a bailout??

They made their beds. NOW LIE IN IT. GM is the ones who gave these execs $50 gajillion dollars a year. Hey they didn't have to do that. They could have automatically curbed what they paid people 2 years ago when they SHOULD have seen the writing on the wall. :conf:

Look at all the cash they would have had then. Let the guys make $500k a year which is a great days pay ($1400 a DAY...$41,000 a MONTH) This is just downright frikkin STUPID if they bail these guys out.

If they bail GM out I'm calling my state Senator and asking for a bailout too. :hihi:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=081111001615.g5irg0ui&show_article=1

yup

but we bail out the financial dudes, but not the blue collar work force?

just my 2 cents,

lets say your garbage man goes out of business, the town would have to pitch in and either pick up the garbage or bail out the garbage man, he provides an essential service.
The bailout of the banks is needed because they provide an essential service. They are the core of our economic engine. Can you say the same for GM?

Just food for thought.

RI JIM I see what your saying and said the same thing to myself before I posted this....but if there's more than one garbage man that can pickup the trash then again why bail them out?

Sure it's jobs...sure it keeps money flowing in the economy through the manufacturing and through distribution-dealers etc...

But if it's poorly managed and you don't pay attention to your business while you give millions away without thought for your future then why use tax dollars that you and I pay to bail them out. Like I said earlier...they made their beds now lie in it...

GM says they'll be out of cash by the spring. SO DO SOMETHING TO RAISE CASH to get you through the rough time. So you don't make a billion in profits...break even if you have to. LOSE money if you have to in the long run but DO SOMETHING to raise some funds.

THIS would be the kickstart to any economy...sell goods...need inventory....buy more...other companies sell their goods...then they need inventory....pretty soon everyone is smelling roses all down the line.

How taking tax dollars and putting it into a PRIVATE investor owned company makes ANY sense is absolutely beyond me as a business owner for 19 years. If the writing on the wall is saying things are going to slow down for sales then you don't stock so much stuff...you don't manufacture so much stuff...This has been going on for how long now? The fact that they all of a sudden have their hands out for a bailout is laughable. :yak5:

JUST in the last 2 days now the whining has increased TEN fold. :yak5:

i agree, I am against any bailouts. let 'em fail.
Just posting the rationale behind it.

Here's your tax dollars hard at work...I say the hell with all of them. How many people's annual salary did they just blow on a couple of days of partying...:yak:

Another AIG Resort "Junket": Top Execs Caught on Tape

Even as the company was pleading the federal government for another $40 billion dollars in loans, AIG sent top executives to a secret gathering at a luxury resort in Phoenix last week.

Brian Ross investigates the AIG executives' latest "business seminar."
Reporters for abc15.com (KNXV) caught the AIG executives on hidden cameras poolside and leaving the spa at the Pointe Hilton Squaw Peak Resort, despite apparent efforts by the company to disguise its involvement.

"AIG made significant efforts to disguise the conference, making sure there were no AIG logos or signs anywhere on the property," KNXV reported.

A hotel employee told KNXV reporter Josh Bernstein, "We can't even say the word [AIG]."

A company spokesperson, Nick Ashooh, confirmed AIG instructed the hotel to make sure there were no AIG signs or mention of the company by staff.

"We're trying to avoid confrontation, keep our profile low," said Ashooh. "Some of our employees have been harassed."

What do they have to hide," asked Congressman Elijah Cummings (D-MD) who said he had been promised by AIG CEO Edward Liddy that the company would stop such "junkets."

"They came to us and said they were drowning and needed help. A person who is drowning doesn't jump up and start partying," said Congressman Cummings.

Cummings said Liddy should resign as AIG CEO.

The AIG spokesman said Cummings "was mistaken" about the nature of the Phoenix event.

"It's terrible," said former AIG chairman Hank Greenberg. "I don't think the left hand knows what the right hand is doing there."

AIG came under fire last month when Congressional investigators revealed its executives attended a seminar for independent insurance agents at another luxury resort, in Southern California.

The AIG spokesman said the meeting in Phoenix was for independent financial advisors and "was the kind of thing we have to do to run our business."

Company officials confirmed the company spent an estimated $343,000 to sponsor the 2008 Asset Management Conference. A spokesperson said much of the cost would be recouped from product sponsors at the conference.

KNXV said the president of AIG unit Royal Alliance Associates, Art Tambaro, stayed in a two-story Casita suite and worked out at the spa while others participated in seminars.

Tambaro and other AIG executives declined to comment when approached by KNXV.

Reporters for abc15.com (KNXV) caught the AIG executives on hidden cameras poolside and leaving the spa at the Pointe Hilton Squaw Peak Resort, despite apparent efforts by the company to disguise its involvement.The AIG spokesman said the Casita suite was provided for free by the hotel because it had booked so many rooms.

AIG confirmed that former football quarterback Terry Bradshaw had been scheduled to appear and sign autographs. The company said it canceled Bradshaw's appearance which was to have been paid for by another company that was a sponsor of the event.

AIG said it conducted a "top to bottom review" of expenses "to validate that only expenses required to ensure the meeting's success are incurred."

The president of the AIG Advisor Group, CEO Larry Roth declined to speak to KNXV.

In a written statement, he said "We take very seriously our commitment to aggressively manage meeting costs." He said financial planners were charged a registration fee and for their travel.

Let the jobs sink, cut social services and unemployment benefits, and let the displaced workers beg in the streets like they do in Calcutta, they did not vote for McCain anyway, so f-them. The bankers are good republicans, so that's different.
Or, maybe we should weigh whether or not a bailout will allow the auto industry to continue and re-tool and survive and prosper when times are better, or if it won't, before we decide. I'm for looking at it a little more before a knee-jerk decision is made.
Its not just the jobs at GM that are at stake, in states like Ohio, Michigan a huge part of the economy is tied to the auto industry between aftermarket replacement part manufacturers and subcontractors - its a huge industry to concede.
GM is leading the way on developing an electric car, the Chevy Volt (http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/) - its almost at the delivery stage, interesting that they should sink when they are on the cusp of a disruptive technology.

Joe, how is this a political argument?
its the New Orleans scenario.....do you keep rebuliding something that you know will be destryoed again or do you move on and find higher ground?

When do we stop bailing? Computer companies, airlines, food manufacturers? To Saltys point, it peoples job to be planning for the business, if they fail, they planned poorly and should lose their jobs. Pumping money into a business that loses money will only mean more lost money.

Here's your tax dollars hard at work...I say the hell with all of them. How many people's annual salary did they just blow on a couple of days of partying...:yak:

In a written statement, he said "We take very seriously our commitment to aggressively manage meeting costs." He said financial planners were charged a registration fee and for their travel.


And we bail out these guys?

Joe, how is this a political argument?
its the New Orleans scenario.....do you keep rebuliding something that you know will be destryoed again or do you move on and find higher ground?

When do we stop bailing? Computer companies, airlines, food manufacturers? To Saltys point, it peoples job to be planning for the business, if they fail, they planned poorly and should lose their jobs. Pumping money into a business that loses money will only mean more lost money.

If we prescribe to darwinian economics at this point in time, then no industry is going to be viable - including yours. It the auto industry collaspes, its going to hasten the avalanche.

If we prescribe to darwinian economics at this point in time, then no industry is going to be viable - including yours. It the auto industry collaspes, its going to hasten the avalanche.

I dont think that its darwinian economics.........just economics. Or at least that what they called it when I went to school.

Challenge the Automakers with.
Increase fleet consumption to 35 mpg in 5 years.
Increase alternate energy vehicles fleet by 500 pct in 5 years
Reduce model to market times by 75%

Meet with the Automakers and the Unions, come to some kind of benefit accord.

Agree to those targets and we'll give you bucks,

This is an unprecedented crisis - its not a good idea to take no action. Its not a good idea to throw good money after bad either.
Where should it end? What should we do?
I think we should evaluate on a case by case basis, whether or not steps can be taken to save major industries that employ vast numbers of people and if taking those steps is a worthwhile measure.
Saying that a failing business in the midst of a once in seventy years crisis is a poorly managed business is an oversimplification.

And we bail out these guys?

3 times...

Apparently the Las Vegas Sands Corp., is in big trouble too. Stock price has been dropping like a rock from 122 to 7 bucks a share over the past year. Not gonna be a good year for Vegas.

for some reason the car manuf. bother me much more than the financial industry. If they hadn't fought against increased CAFE standards for years, they might have some cars that appeal to the public.

Right here right now is trickle down economics amplified times 10. The notion that by bailing these companies out is going to solve the problem is ludacris. When dozens of millions of people are flat broke and their credit rating is cooked and their cards are maxed out and they cant refinance thier home to come up with some money, how the %$%$%$%$ are the large companies that have been bailed out supposed to sell anything????

Lets take the trillions of dollars dedicated to a bail out and divide it up amongst every citizen and put it on a prepaid visa card and say 'spend it in 30 days, or your going to loose it'.. That is an economic bailout...The thing is this.. if we do that, its looked at as socialism.

I say let GM fail, OR give huge stipulations that any balout money has to go to the development of alternative energy vehicles.. THIS is the time to do it. But to bail them out so they can make more gas hog SUV's is insane.

YEA and one that any business owner could see a downturn coming too. Sure they employ lots of people but they've never been shy about layoffs before and they kept building building building. Look at any car lot right now will show proof of that. I'd be willing to bet the staging yards are stocked full still...

My point was this writing was on the wall not just last week. It's been there for a long time. Cut the fat raise some cash and move forward like any other business would. Don't rely on sticking your hand out for a gimme...Why should MY or YOUR tax dollars be used and then ultimately RAISED to put into some fat-cat exec who has a 35 million dollar house and makes 7.5 million a year. I DON'T think it's right.

Look at the link TDF posted. They havent done squat they're still pissing it away...what will they do next spring stick their hands out again? Yea they probably will because to them it's free money. :wall:


This is an unprecedented crisis - its not a good idea to take no action. Its not a good idea to throw good money after bad either.
Where should it end? What should we do?
I think we should evaluate on a case by case basis, whether or not steps can be taken to save major industries that employ vast numbers of people and if taking those steps is a worthwhile measure.
Saying that a failing business in the midst of a once in seventy years crisis is a poorly managed business is an oversimplification.

Another classic example. People's extra money isn't there to piss it away on gambling. Should we start bailing out casino's now? These people make/have made hundreds of millions A DAY in profit. Another case same as above.

Apparently the Las Vegas Sands Corp., is in big trouble too. Stock price has been dropping like a rock from 122 to 7 bucks a share over the past year. Not gonna be a good year for Vegas.

:claps::claps::claps::claps::claps::claps::claps:: claps::claps: NEBESTRADAMOUS you are so right.

Right here right now is trickle down economics amplified times 10. The notion that by bailing these companies out is going to solve the problem is ludacris. When dozens of millions of people are flat broke and their credit rating is cooked and their cards are maxed out and they cant refinance thier home to come up with some money, how the %$%$%$%$ are the large companies that have been bailed out supposed to sell anything????

Lets take the trillions of dollars dedicated to a bail out and divide it up amongst every citizen and put it on a prepaid visa card and say 'spend it in 30 days, or your going to loose it'.. That is an economic bailout...The thing is this.. if we do that, its looked at as socialism.

I say let GM fail, OR give huge stipulations that any balout money has to go to the development of alternative energy vehicles.. THIS is the time to do it. But to bail them out so they can make more gas hog SUV's is insane.

Challenge the Automakers with.
Increase fleet consumption to 35 mpg in 5 years.
Increase alternate energy vehicles fleet by 500 pct in 5 years
Reduce model to market times by 75%

Meet with the Automakers and the Unions, come to some kind of benefit accord.

Agree to those targets and we'll give you bucks,


Like I said, take a stand with them. I don't care if it sounds like socialism or federalism.

Scott I agree 100%! Whats good for the goose isn't good for the gander!! Small business gets in trouble....hey thats the way the cookie crumbles...nothing in it for the big government folks but a big corporation goes belly up....well the big payoffs to governments reps and palm greasing might come to an end so lets save their ass!!! This is such bull%$%$%$%$!!!! I was not for the bank bailout and I sure as Sheboygan am not for bailing out the friggin' automakers!!! What next....Exxon doesn't show a profit so we have to bail their ass out too???!!! Who is bailing our asses out???? Can anyone tell me that??!!!!

I love how they say "The Taxpayers" own X amount of % of the loan institutions we just bailed out and that we stand to make money!!!! How the "F" are we gonna make money??? Where are we gonna benefit from this financially!!!!!???? Its just the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer and if any of you think we should keep bailing these companies out man are you stupid!!!:tm:

If we bail out the car makers might we see a better deal on cars because "WE" (ya right) own a % of them because we bailed them out???!!! Can we go to a swanky resort in Arizona too???!!!

I love how they say "The Taxpayers" own X amount of % of the loan institutions we just bailed out and that we stand to make money!!!! How the "F" are we gonna make money??? Where are we gonna benefit from this financially!!!!!???? Its just the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer and if any of you think we should keep bailing these companies out man are you stupid!!!:tm:

If we bail out the car makers might we see a better deal on cars because "WE" (ya right) own a % of them because we bailed them out???!!! Can we go to a swanky resort in Arizona too???!!!


You could the Friends and Family discount from GM :scream:

You ain't kiddin' Striperman....this is getting pretty bad and its about to get worse!!! Where will this end and when will we see that 70 BILLION DOLLARS again???? If ever!!

Oops, I already get the Friends and Family.
Just got a new mule on the horse farm.
38 pct off of invoice, 0 pct for 6 years, fully loaded Suburban.
25K cost.

YEA and one that any business owner could see a downturn coming too. Sure they employ lots of people but they've never been shy about layoffs before and they kept building building building. Look at any car lot right now will show proof of that. I'd be willing to bet the staging yards are stocked full still...

My point was this writing was on the wall not just last week. It's been there for a long time.

This crisis is different b/c people aren't buying cars b/c they can't get credit which is a result of the banks not lending $. The car dealers are being impacted due to the banks being in trouble and not wanting to lend. One of the problems is that the gov. gave banks $ but the banks aren't using it to lend. Their sitting on it and want to use it for acquistions (which wasn't the intent of the loan). The next bunch of loans from the gov. is going to have more restrictions on them - no AIG style junkets (which is prob. being overblown), you have to lend the $, you can't pay huge bonus', etc.

Who can't get credit?
I got a 60 mo 5.49 pct loan for a used vehicle on Saturday.

I do not agree with that PaulS...the auto industry was in a tailspin before we bailed out the banks! The high cost of fuel set that in motion and the flailing economy! It was flailing before the bailout! This is such a pathetic joke I can't even believe it!!! The government bailing out companies with the money of the taxpayers!!!! When taxes go up soon....maybe some of you will also see the writing on the wall! The small people are struggling folks......thats us.....and nobody is going to bail us out...certainly not the government!!

I think I'm going to buy a 1/2 million dollar home this month then a new Escalade to tool around in......Can't afford it but what the hell.....then when they come to take them back because i can't pay for them i'll whine to the government to help me out....then When they send me a check....I'm taking the family to Disneyworld..WooooHoooo

Doing nothing is expensive to. The people losing their jobs are no longer taxpayers.

If I have my choice I let these companies go under Joe and deal with that fallout than the fallout we are going to deal with from all these bailouts! The government bailed out these banks and now because of it the economy is sliding downhill faster than before!! Companies and businesses are laying folks off as we speak and are poised to lay off alot more......so where is the bailout going to help if we save GM??? They are still going to layoff a good portion of their workforce either way so where is the upside????!!!!

Let them go under. Maybe then we can learn to compete with all the foreign car companies that are succeeding without unionized labor.

Its survival of the fitest and another company will just buy them out...let it happen!!! Its called capitalism!

Anybody remember the GM plant in Framingham?

Something is behind all the industry leaving the USA and it pisses me off. The road we are headed down is pretty grim.

nuff said..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eux_bzpJHiY

Something is behind all the industry leaving the USA and it pisses me off. The road we are headed down is pretty grim.

Its called moving to the cheapest labor source.
Did you see '60 minutes' Sunday. Dumping of E-Waste in China?
8 bucks a day for hazardous, deadly conditions

The people wanted the work!!! They thought 8 bucks a day to breath noxious fumes, ingest mecury, dioxion, lead was a great wage

I'm not saying write GM a blank check, ot invest in a doomed company, if that's the case, they should fail. But it would be a shame if when things turned around we find that we could have saved our domestic auto industry if we tried.
This is more than the usual shakeout of weak, uncompetitive companies in the marketplace. Sitting by and letting events play out in times of crisis is not a good idea - that's what Hoover did. You end up with 28% unemployment and the republic teetering on the brink.

Right here right now is trickle down economics amplified times 10. The notion that by bailing these companies out is going to solve the problem is ludacris. When dozens of millions of people are flat broke and their credit rating is cooked and their cards are maxed out and they cant refinance thier home to come up with some money, how the %$%$%$%$ are the large companies that have been bailed out supposed to sell anything????

Lets take the trillions of dollars dedicated to a bail out and divide it up amongst every citizen and put it on a prepaid visa card and say 'spend it in 30 days, or your going to loose it'.. That is an economic bailout...The thing is this.. if we do that, its looked at as socialism.

I say let GM fail, OR give huge stipulations that any balout money has to go to the development of alternative energy vehicles.. THIS is the time to do it. But to bail them out so they can make more gas hog SUV's is insane.

holy crap, we agree AGAIN! This Obama thing is really working!

Its called moving to the cheapest labor source.
Did you see '60 minutes' Sunday. Dumping of E-Waste in China?
8 bucks a day for hazardous, deadly conditions

The people wanted the work!!! They thought 8 bucks a day to breath noxious fumes, ingest mecury, dioxion, lead was a great wage


yes i saw it, pretty sad :(

I think there is more to it than cheap labor

Where will this end and when will we see that 70 BILLION DOLLARS again???? If ever!!

We will never see it again.

Jeez ,i still haven't read what the criteria is as to what institutions will get it, why, how much, and what they must be do with it. :doh:

Anybody know?

holy crap, we agree AGAIN! This Obama thing is really working!

thats right comrade :grins:

yes i saw it, pretty sad :(

I think there is more to it than cheap labor


You mean like the exploitation of innocents?

Right here right now is trickle down economics amplified times 10. The notion that by bailing these companies out is going to solve the problem is ludacris. When dozens of millions of people are flat broke and their credit rating is cooked and their cards are maxed out and they cant refinance thier home to come up with some money, how the %$%$%$%$ are the large companies that have been bailed out supposed to sell anything????

Lets take the trillions of dollars dedicated to a bail out and divide it up amongst every citizen and put it on a prepaid visa card and say 'spend it in 30 days, or your going to loose it'.. That is an economic bailout...The thing is this.. if we do that, its looked at as socialism.

I say let GM fail, OR give huge stipulations that any balout money has to go to the development of alternative energy vehicles.. THIS is the time to do it. But to bail them out so they can make more gas hog SUV's is insane.

Saw on the news today Pres. Elect Obama is pushing for an immediate bailout for the struggling motor companies......any thoughts Eben?

beats me Bigfish.. I do hope that he pushes for retooling.

I just don't want him walking down Bushes path.......he needs to show that HE wants change. Won't be a good way for him to start out if he pushes for this.

time will tell.

Let them go under. Maybe then we can learn to compete with all the foreign car companies that are succeeding without unionized labor.

Many "imports" are built here in factories where the workforce belongs to the UAW. ;)

I think I'm going to buy a 1/2 million dollar home this month then a new Escalade to tool around in......Can't afford it but what the hell.....then when they come to take them back because i can't pay for them i'll whine to the government to help me out....then When they send me a check....I'm taking the family to Disneyworld..WooooHoooo

pop, I think you just might have a knack for comedy!! :hihi:

Anybody remember the GM plant in Framingham?

I once met the guy that threw all of the extra screws on the floor to make people think parts were missing... :rotf2:

GM makes a good product (certainly at the higher end), and the product was what Americans were buying. The people that wanted the economical cars which made zero profit were buying from the Japs, the people buying the big iron (remember, gas was cheap) were buying American. I'll put an 08 Tahoe against any of its foreign completion. I will say my (second) focus is 93% the car of a Corolla or Civic for 87% of the price (I used to work in Toyota service departments, they have problems too).

Chrysler sucks :rotf2:

But we have a choice, we can bail out the AutoMFGs and take a part ownership (to sell back later) for 70billion freakin dollars, OR we can spend 50 billion freaking dollars on all of the displaced workers for GM, the suppliers, the chemists, the banks, and all of the small and medium businesses that support all of the above.

We pay either way. For those that keep buying foreign cars, keep in mind, you are not helping the US that mush. Even the ones that are made (err, assembled) here, the profits go in one of those vacuum sucky thingies back to Japan.

And WHEN the Chinese start marketing cars here in the northeast (they have their foot in the US market), put your money where your mouth is, buy American.

These bailouts are unprecedented and insane! They will do nothing but plunge us deeper in to what they call a "recession"......stupid term so people think its not really that bad. What will a true "depression" be like?? Well I think you have a better chance of finding that out if we keep bailing these companies out!! As for selling the part ownership back to the companies......I want to know what we are buying to begin with??? How do we benefit by sinking all this money into these failing companies???? They have been living high on the hog, execs getting huge insane bonuses and taking more than they really deserve.....and its the companies fault for operating like this!!! Let them dig themselves out or you can give them the bailout and we can watch their over paid friggin' execs hop a plane, the day after they get the funding, to some exotic locale' to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars pampering themselves!!! NO THANKS LADIES AND GENTLEMEN!!!! I have had enough and its got to stop....look at the AIG execs......they are livin' it up on our buck....come on sheeple!!!:hs:

John as much as i want to buy American my wallet tells me otherwise.The car manufacturers have been losing ground since the first oil embargo when they did not want to get away from the gas guzzlers and let the Japanese automakers establish a foothold here with better quality cars and better gas mileage.How many years later and they are still playing catchup.Same thing happened to the electronics industry.Now we have to bail them out because of years and years of bad decisions and greed.I look at it this way would i invest in this company (GM) if i was looking to upgrade my portfolio?I have a feeling were are buying into some bad investments.I have one ? if all goes as planned and all these bailouts pay off will i see a reduction in my taxes in the future?Or do i just assume the position and touch my knees?

:laughs:

My thoughts: GM refused to put an affordable, high mpg car in their showrooms, thus helping to cause this oil fiasco we have now. (sure prices seem low now but we all know that it is nowhere near over). They could have had a "Smart Car" but noooooo.
They have rewarded their execs far beyound anything that resembles performance. Being paid bonuses of hundreds of millions for steering the ship into the rocks is just dopey.
The jobs lost are the trumpcard and they know it. But if those jobs can go to "greener" manufacturers then the trump card is toilet paper. Take the bailout money and invest in greener companies.

I'm a lifelong GM buyer, but enough is enough. Never bought a foreign badged car or truck. Did own an F-250, but the same sentiment goes for Ford. See-Ya!

As a consumer I always buy the best product for the money. Somewhere along the way American auto makers have become inferior. I won't bail them out by buying a overpriced unreliable gas guzzler why should I bail them out any other way. When I was a kid the "Cadillac" of something meant the absolute best. Nowadays it means second rate. The Government could care less if BigfishBaitCo. or Salty's goes belly up why should we care if the billionaires at GM aren't making billions anymore. Sink or swim thats what they tell me.

i agree with NEBE, one way or another it's going to cost you and me billions. Why not try and get something out of it.

And you know if our reps and senators have their way, this will be an easy way to buy some votes are our expense.

Let's just nationalize all the auto manufacturers, their spin off subsidiaries, their suppliers and the dealer network.

And oh, throw out the union agreements with them all.

Cancel all the pensions and accumulated retirement savings of their workers.

Just like everybody else is.

Oh and in case you didn't know

According to CNN

'One of the officials noted that about one in 10 jobs in America is tied to the auto industry and that if one of the companies goes bankrupt, it could have a massive spillover effect in the credit industry and other sectors'

And another
Unless recalled to DC. Congress is out of session until after Jan 20th 2009.

How about we give every family, a check for 20 grand, good towards the purchase of any new American car. That would bail out the automakers real quick and help the people as well.

ROCKFISH for President!!:jump: Thats a great idea!

70 Billion Bailout---


Jeez ,i still haven't read what the criteria is as to what institutions will get it, why, how much, and what they must be do with it. :doh:

Anybody know?


So nobody knows. :huh:

TARP is still fictional.
Those with the biggest leverage get the goods.

The pensions are federally guaranteed (http://www.pbgc.gov/) - but the pensioners will only get about a third of what they would have gotten.
GM directly employs about 250,000 people. It used to be 1 out of 6 jobs was tied to the auto industry nationwide - but not so anymore. I think CNN's numbers are alarmist - I don't think 1 out of 10 people will lose their jobs nationwide as a result of the auto industry collaspe, but I think it would certainly be several million to ten million. As bad as the 260,000 job losses we had last month - it would be much, much worse. Major reverberations across the economy. Million plus job loss figures month after month won't go over to well on Wall St.
Interesting that the collaspe of GM only got about 2 1/2 minutes on the national news - imagine how big a story that would have been even a couple of years ago?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IocCC1-jeTY
Sinking - Like A Rock

Just so folks know....even if they get the bailout you can bet your bottom dollar they will be cutting jobs in their restructuring process......but the fat cats at the top will still be getting all theirs!

The pensions are federally guaranteed (http://www.pbgc.gov/) - but the pensioners will only get about a third of what they would have gotten.


1/3 of what the had signed up for, nice. Because they turned them over to be paid by you and me. Just like , UAL, PanAm,and PennCentral.

How much will American Axle emps get?

1/3 of what the had signed up for, nice. Because they turned them over to be paid by you and me. Just like , UAL, PanAm,and PennCentral.

How much will American Axle emps get?

So we guarenteed the railroad pensions and they were exempt from paying social security? Am I wrong here?

Correct

The Argentinean government recently announced that they would send a proposal to the Congress by which the Pension and Retirement Plan Administration or AFJP in Spanish (also known as mutual funds in the US) would become nationalized. The AFJP privately manages millions of Argentineans' retirement funds, and under the proposal, their funds would now go to the State. The political debate will go to National Congress, but many blogs have commented on the possible changes.

On the side of those who oppose, there are two quite evident arguments: that this is a sacking of a lot of Argentineans' retirement contributions, and the only reason for this change is to increase the government's revenues in the short term. Guillermo Riera of Demasiada Información [es] states:

De seguir con el sistema de reparto, en veinte años el Estado estará imposibilitado para pagar jubilación alguna, sencillamente porque habrá tantos jubilados que no habrá recaudación que alcance.

By staying in the public system, twenty years from now the government will be unable to pay any retirement benefits at all, simply because there will be so many retired people, that there won't be enough funds for them all. :doh:

SOUND FAMILIAR ????

They want a bail out fine, since it is my tax dollars the gov should give me a check made out to GM for the price of the vehicle I want, Gm should sell me the truck of my choice for 3,000.00 over cost that way they get their money back and then some, and I the tax payer get something for giving to corporate welfare.

IMO the Gov should have required every Bank that takes money to give some kind of credit the mortgage holders....

Lost income tax revenues, pension liabilities, increased unemployment compensation, foreclosures on home owners with upside-down equity, loss of value to stocks upon release high unemployment numbers, increased burden from people without health insurance, increased trade inbalance...
Those are some of the certain costs of GM failing - those events are a certainty.
Any way you slice it, its still sh_t pie. If you bail them out and they survive - its a huge win. But if you bail them out and they fail, its an even worse loss.

sh_t pie is going to be on the table for a lot of families this Thanksgiving

And just to add gravy to the pie. The person responsible for drafting the bailout bill for the House Financial Committee is none other than our own 'Hard Bottom' Barney Frank.

to bail out the auto industry....

In front of a crowd of 75,000 people in Portland, Oregon, Barack Obama made the following statement:

“We can’t drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times … and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK”
Obama's limo will be a Caddy like no other

After President Obama takes the oath of office in January, he may have a shiny new black limousine to go along with his not-so-new White House. General Motors is believed to be putting the final touches on a new first car.
...
The photographer noted that the limousine was being tested, possibly for comparison purposes, with a pair of GMC Topkick medium-duty trucks. The limousine seemed to be riding on the same 19 1/2-inch Goodyear Regional RHS tires as the trucks, indicating that it is far heavier than a civilian Cadillac - even the longest stretch limousines built with the GM division's heavy-duty coachbuilder package. Indeed, it is believed that the limo is based on GM's 2500 line of trucks, which includes an extra-heavy-duty version of the Suburban.
...
Aircraft tie-downs welded to the chassis allow the limousine to be transported aboard a military cargo jet, which also often carries the Secret Service's Suburban escort vehicles and at least one limo used as a backup or decoy.

Don't forget the 2 presidential 747's

Until its all paid back: not one bonus is given,
not one raise is given,
thier are no fancy trips to exotic locales
for board of directors meetings,
not one golden parchute is awarded,

and anyone caught mispending money, that was given by us, the American people, to any company we bailed out, in any way shape or form is sent to jail.

It should be our choice not thiers.

Until its all paid back: not one bonus is given,
not one raise is given,
thier are no fancy trips to exotic locales
for board of directors meetings,
not one golden parchute is awarded,

and anyone caught mispending money, that was given by us, the American people, to any company we bailed out, in any way shape or form is sent to jail.

It should be our choice not thiers.

Yeah, let them live like us for a while... You're dead on, Swimmer.

Many "imports" are built here in factories where the workforce belongs to the UAW. ;)
Source?

For the most part, US Toyota and Honda plants are non union. They tend to build their plants in areas where unionized laborers are not found. Attempts to unionize by the UAW have mostly failed. There may be a few unionized plants, but all of the big three plants ARE unionized. And there is a clear difference.

They say the average GM car has $1,500 tied up in health care costs in it. The average Toyota has about $110. The big three are failing. Is entirely the fault of Unions? probably not

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/nummi-rip-toyota-considers-dumping-uaw-plant/

"GM and Toyota formed NUMMI (New United Motor Manufacturing Inc.) in 1984. The Fremont, California facility was Toyota’s first foray into American manufacturing and GM’s chance to learn about Toyota’s take on lean manufacturing. The 380-acre NUMMI facility currently cranks-out approximately 250k cars (Toyota Corolla, Pontiac Vibe) and 170k trucks (Toyota Tacoma) per year.

The NUMMI plant employs around 5440 “team members.” Some 4550 of these employees also play for the UAW. This makes NUMMI the only Toyota plant using UAW labor and one of the highest-labor-cost manufacturing facilities in the entire American automotive industry."

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/uaw-affirms-4-year-pact-mitsubishi/story.aspx? (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/uaw-affirms-4-year-pact-mitsubishi/story.aspx?guid={324F0C24-3788-4F47-AE04-B035A9D6171C}&dist=hpts)

Mitsubishi Motors North America and the United Auto Workers said on Saturday that the union's members at the Normal, Ill., plant ratified a new four-year accord.
The deal expires Aug. 30, 2012, and covers 1,264 members of UAW Local 2488, the union said.
"The agreement includes provisions guaranteeing that production will continue" at the plant through August 2012 and provides job security for the workers, while keeping the company competitive in the U.S. market, Mitsubishi

A little tidbit, post WWII, the Americans sent some of our best process engineers to Japan to teach what would become "lean" processing and six sigma. The Japanese mastered the techniques which have led to Japan being a leader in technology and eventually the automotive industry.
These techniques have been taught in the US (again) for decades but they have never been fully implemented by the US auto industry.

Same thing happened to the electronics industries in the U.S. this is history repeting itself and the govt. did not bail them out.

Source?

For the most part, US Toyota and Honda plants are non union. They tend to build their plants in areas where unionized laborers are not found. Attempts to unionize by the UAW have mostly failed. There may be a few unionized plants, but all of the big three plants ARE unionized. And there is a clear difference.

They say the average GM car has $1,500 tied up in health care costs in it. The average Toyota has about $110. The big three are failing. Is entirely the fault of Unions? probably not



Total compensation per hour for the big-three carmakers is $73.20. That’s a 52 percent differential from Toyota’s (Detroit South) $48 compensation (wages + health and retirement benefits). In fact, the oversized UAW-driven pay package for Detroit is 132 percent higher than that of the entire manufacturing sector of the U.S., which comes in at $31.59.

We will never see it again.

Jeez ,i still haven't read what the criteria is as to what institutions will get it, why, how much, and what they must be do with it. :doh:

Anybody know?
==============================
there's to much bait and switch going on....these days... :hs:

a law gets passed then it gets transformed again
( California gay marriage is a perfect example )

everything seems to have flip flop built right into it

all of W's work is going to be reversed by Obama
which is probably a great idea, but it's difficult to make progress
if there's no consistency in anything.

The kicker is that when all these homeless unemployed folks stop making credit card payments. Unsecured debt beyond gozillions. Won't be any bail out for that sinking ship.

Total compensation per hour for the big-three carmakers is $73.20. That’s a 52 percent differential from Toyota’s (Detroit South) $48 compensation (wages + health and retirement benefits). In fact, the oversized UAW-driven pay package for Detroit is 132 percent higher than that of the entire manufacturing sector of the U.S., which comes in at $31.59.


Those are some scary numbers. Pretty easy to see, right there, why the big three cannot compete or even survive for that matter.

We always joked, when I was part of the group handling the GM benefits systems, that $1200 of every car sold was for benefits.

We had a significant problem in that GM had no way of tracking dependents of insuree's. You got family coverage with no copay, and continued with that benefit regardless of death, divorce, children over 18, etc.

We tried to get insuree's to register dependents during Annual Enrollment but, had little success in getting turnout to do so, we were hindered by the union in communicating to its constituents

As for bailout conditions that require any car company that gets taxpayer money demonstrate a plan for transforming every vehicle in its fleet to a hybrid-electric engine with flex-fuel capability, so its entire fleet can also run on next generation cellulosic ethanol.

There is already an auto company that does this. In addition to sedans, it offers hybrid models in even its largest SUVs. This company is also the industry’s largest investor in cellulosic ethanol production, and every model it makes is flex-fuel capable.

This company’s name? General Motors. Obviously, there’s more to profitability than being green.

Great thread and interesting reading the responses after being away for a few days.

All I have to say is buy plugs please I don't want to fillout the 47 page bailout application :hee:

Those are some scary numbers. Pretty easy to see, right there, why the big three cannot compete or even survive for that matter.

Yeah it has nothing to do with the fact that the company execs make an exorbitant salary (way more than they deserve)(not to mention absolutely ridiculous bonuses) and that they expense all these lavish trips and perks and benny's for themselves........but hey......lets US ALL take a hit, bail them out, give them billions with no idea how or when we will get it back.....and then STILL watch them layoff untold numbers of people during their restructuring process! Sure....lets help them!!!:angel::huh:

Why not, we're doing it with the friggin financial organizations.
We are only givin the big 3 25 billion worth from TARP

Great thread and interesting reading the responses after being away for a few days.

All I have to say is buy plugs please I don't want to fillout the 47 page bailout application :hee:

The bailout application is only TWO i repeat TWO pages long!!!Credit card applications are longer and not for billions of dollars.

That's right I forgot the front page says "I need money" and a yes or no checkbox

The back says "billions or millions" and two check boxes.

:smash:

The bailout application is only TWO i repeat TWO pages long!!!Credit card applications are longer and not for billions of dollars.

Check this out watch towards the end.

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2008/11/12/ldt.sylvester.big.bailout.rathole.cnn

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-147084

I smell HORSE%$%$%$%$

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72cHfOKoA1c&eurl

This was supposedly done by GM and posted on Youtube. This is BS they're lumping all three automakers together and using hocus pocus numbers to try and scare people into giving them money.

It's amazing how much this rhetoric has ratcheted up in the past few weeks.

I say let em fail and let the chips fall where they may. I've seen enough of this by now.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c66/ravenob1/horse%$%$%$%$.jpghttp://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c66/ravenob1/horse.jpg

the word greatly "is" horse s h! t for one!
the fuel efficiency has been dismal for decades

quality?? i remember going to look at the engine
of a brand new ford truck several years ago and upon inspection i quickly saw some air filter thing up front and realized it was nothing more than a painted coffee can :hs: ....and one minute later -i walked away.
~
why is it that Americans are rebuilding their own cars and trucks themselves turning them into electric vehicles
at a personal cost of $8000.00 dollars if the Auto makers are investing Billions.... in what????
fancy shmancy showrooms !!! certainly not in
the heavier SUV's ....not in carbon nano tube technology which is ultimately lighter and ten times stronger than steel !!!! or electric vehicles....christ
they are not hardly even on the market yet really?

Try 15K to put a diesel in one and to then bio-fuel distill VO.

China is just drooling with anticipation. I am sure they are building warehouses right now to buy up every assembly line and robot...:hs:

This Country has sold its soul... Do all of you remember when we were told that to be a patriot you were supposed to buy american products???? Now the patriotic thing to do is stick your head in the sand so you can get %$%$%$%$ed in the ass...

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE4AD08120081118?sp=true

"We're surprised that Senate Democrats would propose a bailout that fails to require automakers to make the hard decisions needed to restructure and become viable," White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said."

GEE I'M NOT :smash:

"Executives from the three companies are expected to amplify their calls for help at congressional hearings beginning on Tuesday." :rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:

no bailout for the big 3 under T a r p .
~
good news for us though...auto makers in Illinois
said they'd sell two cars for the price of one
the second car costs one dollar

headline BEGGARS ON THE HILL :roflmao:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081118/D94HIR800.html

Imminent collapse GM says now they won't last until Jan20 when Bacrook gets in.

Spare me.

I see 60 pct of on all GM models Thanksgiving sale.

more like reeming them a new one for their ultimate failure...

the American people expect HUGE changes in the Auto industry - not the same old same old

as much change as President elect Obama is promising in Washington.

In as much as they keep calling it a Government bailout
it's really a taxpayer or American citizen bailout in truth !

The big three are correct about one thing they have to retool. So get rid of these tools at the top already.

Buy our stuff its American made and American

I loved the Ford Chairman today. People love the F150, it only gets 15 mpg and we are working hard on improving the mileage

The only thing I have seen being done is aero, no engine stuff.

:bgi:

The big three are correct about one thing they have to retool. So get rid of these tools at the top already.

EVEN BETTER.

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/video/18007972/index.html?source=CNN

CHECKOUT this dood. He looks like Polly Crackers the hit man :laughs: Buy my cars or I'll whack you :wid:

I see 60 pct of on all GM models Thanksgiving sale.

Did you see this morning on the news about them all taking seperate private jets to washington, to claim they're broke and beg for money, at a cost of around $20k each.....why didn't they just car-pool down....you know rent a mini van and leave on Monday morning, take turns driving....maybe hit a Waffle House or Denny's on the way for a meal...would have saved a few bucks.

You can only fit one giant ego into a Gulfstream.

Even if one were to ride baggage? :rotf2:

You can only fit one giant ego into a Gulfstream.

Did you see this morning on the news about them all taking seperate private jets to washington, to claim they're broke and beg for money, at a cost of around $20k each.....why didn't they just car-pool down....you know rent a mini van and leave on Monday morning, take turns driving....maybe hit a Waffle House or Denny's on the way for a meal...would have saved a few bucks.
So much for austerity,

Explain this one to me....this is from an article I was reading on yahoo news..

"GM this month said it lost $4.2 billion in the third quarter and almost $73 billion since the end of 2004."

They've been getting run into the ground for 4 years yet...

"The GM CEO got $14.4 million in compensation in 2007, including a salary of $1.56 million."

$13 million in Bonuses...for what???? Running the company into the Ground...i'll do that for them for 1/2 that.....Amazing

They have needs.

ok thats a wrap....move along people...


nothing to see here... it's turkey time

go make a pie ....move along now...

Chances for deal called 'remote'


Note to self. Don't fly private jet to beg for money.

http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2008/11/20/automakers_pleas_unanswered/

You can only fit one giant ego into a Gulfstream.

:hihi: :grins:

So they're sending the big 3 back to return again with a plan on Dec 9th on what the auto makers $$$$ will be used for.

After a week of testimony, Barney Frank doesn't even know how many$$$ they are asking for. I'd laugh, but it's too sad.

Pelosie, Reid, Frank, Schumer, and Dodd couldn't wait to get to the mike to talk about there new plan. :faga:

They don't even know how much they want, no, i just gotta laugh at our genius leaders. :hee:

Growing up in michigan i know how much the economy of the state depends on the auto industry. All of my friends fathers were shop rats. Gm stands for Generous Motors. Way to generous in my opinion. A lot of the blame can be placed on the UAW. The amount of money GM pays to retirees and on their benefits is astounding. I dont know the number of people that are suckling on the GM teet but its huge.
A major restructuring is in order as we all know. The executives are grossly overpaid in that industry like so many others. People need to be rewarded for their performance, and management is no different. Pay someone a hefty salary and if they dont perform be done with them.
I may be way off here but if we had a national healthcare system wouldnt companies be able to spend the money that goes to pay for the healthcare of their employees on something that actually shows a return. Its not a bad thing to spend money if there is a return, if you dont get anything back its a waste. I know that the corporate taxes would increase to pay for something as massive as nationalized healthcare but it wouldnt be near as much as they spend on insurance.
I really think the big 3 need to be bailed out in some way. Yes there has to be stipulations. Real change needs to be done. Nobody wants to lose their jobs, and if the employees do lose their jobs the UAW will lose their dues. The union need to be a little more realistic with their negotiations.
Michigan is already at 8.5% unemployment. And the number is steadily rising. There is a trickle down effect of plants closing and the industry slowing down. As someone else mentioned the amount of aftermarket products, parts accessories etc being produced to go along with the cars is huge.
I really hope that Gm can make it back big with their electric cars and hybrid technologies that are going to be the future of the worldwide auto industry. The quality of the vehicles is good if not great in many models. They have a bad rap for making crap because of a long list of flops produced in the 80's and 90's.
My best friend works for GM at the proving grounds, has been there for 10 years now and is doing pretty well for himself. His wife just got laid off. 3 days later they found out she was pregnant with their first. He is really worried that his layoff might come on any given Friday.
Sorry for the long winded rant but its something i feel strongly about because it really is quite close to home.

Well if they are in trouble and need bailing out, they can go to a bank like everyone else does or sell stock or whatever. The fatcats at the top just don't get it, maybe it's time they walk a mile in their employees shoes:walk::whackin:

November 26, 2008 6:00 AM

Ivan and Boris Again
We are all Russian peasants?

By Thomas Sowell

There is an old Russian fable, with different versions in other countries, about two poor peasants, Ivan and Boris. The only difference between them was that Boris had a goat and Ivan didn’t. One day, Ivan came upon a strange-looking lamp and, when he rubbed it, a genie appeared. She told him that she could grant him just one wish, but it could be anything in the world.

Ivan said, “I want Boris’s goat to die.”

Variations on this story in other countries suggest that this tells us something about human beings, not just Russians.

It may tell us something painful about many Americans today, when so many people are preoccupied with the pay of corporate CEOs. It is not that the corporate CEOs’ pay affects them so much. If every oil-company executive in America agreed to work for nothing, that would not be enough to lower the price of a gallon of gasoline by a dime. If every General Motors executive agreed to work for nothing, that would not lower the price of a Cadillac or a Chevrolet by one percent.
Too many people are like Ivan, who wanted Boris’s goat to die.

It is not even that the average corporate CEO makes as much money as any number of professional athletes and entertainers. The average pay of a CEO of a corporation big enough to be included in the Standard & Poor’s index is less than one-third of what Alex Rodriguez makes, about one-tenth of what Tiger Woods makes and less than one-thirtieth of what Oprah Winfrey makes.

But when has anyone ever accused athletes or entertainers of “greed”?

It is not the general public that singles out corporate CEOs for so much attention. Politicians and the media have focused on business leaders, and the public has been led along, like sheep.

The logic is simple: Demonize those whose place or power you plan to usurp.


We could confiscate "all" of the wealth of the top 5% who currently pay a lions share of the Federal taxes in this country and it would not run the federal government for very long....but of course a lot of people would "FEEL" better wouldn't they?
Kicking the crap out of the execs. is pointless unless you simply want to feel BIG.....the union influence is like a cancerous growth on business and government.....how can you justify paying 12,000 employees to play cards at full time pay unless you are bound and gagged by insane work rules...I hope they go bankrupt and rid themselves of these foolish contracts and work rules become competitive again by paying competitive market compensation rather than union negotiated foolishness....

have any of you looked at the Electoral map and noticed that most of the areas "in BLUE" are the areas of the country that are fiscally screwed right now and have been run by democrats legislatures and liberal ideaology for quite some time...yet they keep electing democrats in greater numbers and maybe an occasional liberal Repubican...huge populations of government dependents that can't take a crap without help from government....and they keep grabbing their ankles and asking for more......

like Rahm Emmanuel said " You never want to waste the opportunity of a good crisis to get things done that you might not otherwise be able to convince the public to accept" that's pretty close...

like this "CHANGE":
Argentina-

The Kirchner administration has been moving aggressively to counter the effects of the global crisis.
On November 20 it nationalized 26 billion dollars worth of private pension funds run by 10 banks, a move opponents believe is really aimed at preventing a loan default on Argentina's national debt of some 150 billion dollars.

But when has anyone ever accused athletes or entertainers of “greed”?



Me......All the Time.....Way to much money to play a game.

And last time I looked Tiger or Gay-Rod weren't asking congress for Tax Dollars

Its not "good UAW bad CEO" or bad "CEO good UAW," it's more a case of bad CEO's and bad UAW.
The auto companies were under the burden of uncompetitive labor contracts and that was part of the reason they failed, the other part was piss poor leadership.

My guess is... that the folks in the post on the Lehman Bros.failure were not in a union...that if all union workers agreed to work for min. wage we wouldn't see a public benefit ....that many of you are unfamiliar with our countries history and why unions came into being...and that not many of you are in a "real" union and regret it. And "HEADS UP" ScottW....some bitter ,"anti worker" corporate shill is posting under your screen name!

The hell with the big 3, let them all go under !
As a matter of fact, the hell with all the gready unions in this country !
Bail the big 3 out, who is next in line ???
Maybe the policemens union in Ma. (no more USELESS paid details)
Maybe the NFL players (like Ty Law making STUPID statements like "he needs to feed his family" when he's making more in a year than most make in a lifetime !
ect..........................................